I am new to this forum. I have visited it many times but have never contributed. I was born in 1960 into a Thiemepark household. My father was a devoted taper. Hundreds of reel to reel tapes filled the shelves. The first conference I attended was in 1972. I have never been to the mother church in Houston(perhaps a good thing). I have logged many hours in bible class and read many of Thiemes books. My marriage is a result of listening to the right-man right-woman series. I attended a clone church for many years but have since left. In 1988 my father tried to kill himself. He died a year later. I don't blame Thieme for my fathers death but really wonder why my Dad tried to end his life after listening to Thieme all those years. Apparently doctrine didn't work in his life. I have since retired my Thieme pom-poms and started to question Thiemes style,techniques and ministry. Looking back I think I have really been duped,manipulated,brainwashed by Thiemes style. I swallowed Thiemes teaching and opinions as gospel truth never questioning any of it. Many of Thiemes coined words,phrases still circulate in my head(or as Thieme would put it the stream of consciousness). I am thankful for the insights I have gained from this forum as I try to work out my Thieme issues. I am a believer in Jesus Christ by faith alone but really wonder what Christ desires of his followers apart from what Thieme says. Thats all for now. Cab18

Yes I am very glad this site is here! It is very healing to read about others experiences.

I wouldn't say that I am "healed" because I think the the way "bible doctrine" was pounded into me as a child, it becomes so ingrained in who you are it is a constant journey to separate what is from Thieme and what is from Gods word. I don't suffer from what some seem to as far as guilt feelings. Although I do to this day, (30 years after rejecting Theimes teachings as a young teenager) find myself worrying about constant confession of sins. I know that Christ has paid the price, and I do beleive that you should ask for forgiveness for sins, but I don't think it is a mechanical process, where you sin....boom God abandons you, you say an insincere prayer, o.k. all is well. I'll often pray about something through the course of the day and it pops in my head, maybe you haven't confessed a sin, God won't hear your prayer. I know this isn't true because God has answered a LOT of prayers, and I am quite sure I had unconfessed sins at the time.

This whole Thieme thing is something I always looked at as I am sort a one of a kind. You try to talk to another christian about your experience and the more you talk the more convoluted and hard to understand it becomes, you just sort of quit trying. That is what is so great about this site. I have a remodeling business, and I got rained out one day shortly after I found the site, I spent about 4 hours going back and reading others postings as sistersoap suggested. Very enlightening.

I am currently very active in a healthy church. I teach kids, and am on the worship team.

I was only taking in "bible doctrine" for a few years as a kid. And I always assume that some of my perceptions may have been clouded by the memories of a child. I do know that even though I know a lot, (thanks to Thieme) I assume I know nothing unless I can somehow verify what I think I know is in fact in the Bible. I don't want to pass on any false teaching to someone else. I appreciate the scripture reference. After reading a lot of the posts I wonder if maybe some of the doctrines he developed were after my time. I very familiar with right man right woman, supergrace etc. Not sure what GAP is.

I have a few questions for you or anyone else who would like to respond.

I noticed you spell God G-d. Is there a reason for this??

Worship is such an integral part of my spiritual life today. I believe God wants us to worship him. Obviously as a tape family there was no worship. When we moved to Texas to attend North Dallas Bible Church, ( a thieme offshoot church) worship consisted of singing maybe 2 songs led by the pastor. But there was nothing worshipfull about it. What was Thiemes position on worship??

Thieme was soooo anti emotion, did you find this affected how you interacted with your family.

This one is really random. In Genesis there is the story of Noahs sons finding him after a night of drunkeness unclothed. Somehow in my mind was the idea that one of them had an "inappropriate relation with him and as a result his descendants were cursed by way of skin color. Is this a Thieme thing or something my parents told me? Maybe something that came from the offshoot church, I have seen others that have posted that went to this church.

Was Thiemes church ever involved in trying to serve others outside of the tape ministry, help for needy folks, anything that would extend or show Gods love to others outside of the church. My perception is that this is pretty much non existent.


Thanks so much for all your thoughtfull postings truthtesty.

Mike

Hi Cab 18, I too am new to this site. But it has been a blessing. There are a lot of folks here with a lot more Thieme wisdom than me, but here's my take. Or at least what worked for me.

I think the hardest thing to do post Thieme is to realize Christ wants a personal relationship with you. That sounds really cliche, but what I mean is feel like you can talk to him about ANYTHING, in prayer (including feelings, including feelings about him). Get in the Bible on your own. Ask Him for insight into what you are about to read and then read. Never assume what you think you know is right until you confirm it with scripture. When I began this quest, the Bible that worked the best for me and the one that is still my favorite, is the NIV student Bible. It is geared towards high school and college aged folks, but I found when I came out of thiemes world of direct translations and complicated convoluted explanations, the very simple footnotes in this Bible were so helpfull.

Find a church that is Bible based, avoid situations where they pick 1 scripture and then have an hours worth of personal opinons just using the scripture to back up their idea. As an ex Thieme guy I found myself very vulnerable to be willing to once again what the pastor says without verifying it. The church I now attend he preaches straight from the scripture, verse by verse, he helps you to understand context, backgrounds of key players, etc, but you can go back and read it for yourself, verify it and it makes sense to you indipendant of what he says. And you are encouraged to do so. I also think finding your fit in a good local church is so important, because the Thieme experience is so devoid of fellowship, encouragement etc. Sure, a church is full of people, there are people who will disappoint you. But for me... life as a Christian is missing something without that fellowship with other beleivers. Fellowship isn't setting next to somebody while you take notes and going home.

The other thing that has blessed me is to serve others. You can do it in very small ways. But find ways to bless others, If it is God working through you and you serving him, and you are not seeking credit, this is not "works".


I pray for you as you continue on this journey

Mike

zeebrook quote: "Truthtesty,
Your mentor Dr Wall states in his thesis that you so prolificly comment about on page 36 of the pdf form states of Thieme "he is a Christian brother well within the circle of orthodox Christianity".
zeebrook quote: "You comment that i would "have everyone believe that Thieme was a "Christian brother"". Yes I believe Thieme is a Christian brother exactly as Dr Wall states, so it is not just me.

zeebrook quote: "However you pronounce that you are "not convinced that Thieme was a "Christian brother"". Does this mean that Dr Wall's analysis of Thieme's spiritual standing was wrong? Did he miss something? What else has Dr Wall got wrong then in which you could enlighten us?"

Truthtesty: First you did not apologize. As most thiemites do not apologize. Thiemites have an agenda and disrespect human good/bad right/wrong. And for a thiemite to admit that they did or said something wrong is to admit that their whole agenda is wrong.

Secondly, when I tell you something once? It is true. And if you were here with honest intentions to honestly communicate then you would listen more and assume less. But you don't. Dr. Wall is/was not my mentor. I specifically told you he was not my mentor. Wrong again. The truth is my mentor. Dr. Wall is a theological source. I have quoted him many times. But? I have quoted Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer as much if not more than Dr. Wall. Dr. Chafer is theological source. Dr. Walvoord, Dr. Custer, Dr. Zodhiates, Dr. Waite, Reverend Walters, Dr. Enroth, and many many more, they were all theological sources.
Dr. Chafer (President and founder of Dallas theological Seminary) considered Thieme's teaching on the Blood of Jesus as satanic. Which I have shown on this forum.

Dr. Wall was restricted. Dr. Wall "To embark on such a study and critique is fraught with dangers. To attack a man
of God without cause is worthy of divine discipline. To evaluate the ministry of one of
God's servants, when it is not one's responsibility to do so, likewise is a precarious
position to be in. On the other hand, to avoid doctrinal issues raised by a teacher in the
body of Christ that are affecting the lives of many believers would be irresponsible.

Truthtesty: It is true that is what Dr. Wall said. But? It is also true that Dr. Wall said: "Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin and the
repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even
schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems
stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship."


Dr. Wall quote "Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority.
Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of
church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the
protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29;
Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 5:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear
biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all
in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself.
Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it
teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two
major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all
believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second,
maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to
one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person.
Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular
teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to
single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary,
there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary
church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had
both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the
ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3
John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock,
forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ.
Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes
doctrine."

Truthtesty: Now in 1979 did Dr. Wall understand the characteristics of a cult as described by Dr. Lifton? I don't know, but Dr. Wall did say Thieme used "The argument that the life of the teacher is irrelevant is one also used by some cult leaders to excuse their life styles."..." For example, the leaders of the Children of God teach that their people are to ignore their blatant
immorality and submit to their authoritative teaching because they are God's appointed
authoritative teachers."

I am not saying Dr. Wall got anything wrong except for the 1 Peter 5:3(4:3) typo.

I am saying that I think that Dr. Wall was reluctant to say everything in public, and was very aware of possible punishment. I know Dr. Wall handed Thieme a private admonishment paper which is not public. So? There is something more. Does a "Christian brother" cause schizophrenia in others? Does a "Christian brother" maintain an authoritative life style like the cult leader of the children of G-d. Does a "Christian brother" teach and enforce with fear mongering your spiritual life dangling in fictitious danger a false cult doctrine of "right pastor"? Does a "Christian brother" distort
The very meaning of "Brotherly love" for political gain? Hah ridiculous! Thieme did not even use the term Christian brother! He hated the liberal term of brotherly love.
Does a "Christian brother" go into a gym and murder 3 women and wound more women then commit suicide? Thieme's fruit Sodini was reading Thieme's "Integrity of G-d" the day before the mass murder. Was Sodini a "Christian brother"?

zeebrook quote: "Oh by the way I just finished proofreading and editing a paper to be presented to a local bible conference by a ThM student in which he is presenting arguments against one of Thieme's pet areas of teaching. This bible conference is sponsored by a church whose pastor was the local Thieme tape franchise hence the attendees will be predominantly "the faithful". This student has written the paper clearly presenting the issue and presents grammatical and lexical details which should guide the attendees to understand where Thieme's logic faltered and thus encourage them to look further afield. This rather than your sledgehammer, damn the lot of them, they are all going to hell approach. My experience is to use Thiemetes love for the scriptures and lead them through the doctrines with clear information. Whilst their love for doctrine is generally more "love of Thieme's viewpoint" it can be used to lead them through the argument and clear the way to appreciate exactly what the scriptures say."

Truthtesty: Go ahead an tell the whole truth! Hah you say you are a teacher? You must be kidding. "Love of Thieme's viewpoint" IS the same as ANY CULTS perverted concept of love toward thier CULT LEADER's view.

You think you can manipulate their "love of Thieme's human viewpoint" while I? Just hit with with the truth whether they love it or not. I don't sacrifice the truth for their cult love.

My approach is not sledgehammer unless a thiemite approaches with only evil cult violence on their mind. To characterize my approach as "sledgehammer" is just an ignorant assumption on your part as you probably have not read all of my posts here.

To me? A true "Christian brother" is a christian who has faith in Jesus as saviour, who discerns and submits to the perfect authority of G-d(and questions the authority of any corrupt man/woman), and relies on the annointing to teach all things(1 John 2:27) and? gets the gospel correct. Thieme completely misses the efficacious value of the physical aspect of Jesus' one death(see orange for Phillip Mitchell's thesis on the physical death ). And? Thieme is heretical on the efficacious value of the Blood. (And others are not discounting the the spiritual aspect of Jesus' death). After Thieme was made aware of his errors he did not change his ways and just became sicker.

To me Thieme did not meet this criteria. Thieme was a destructive heretical cult leader And? His acting as a political media agent for and with the Neocon political party(pre FOX entertainment era) is extremly questionable, as are probably ties to to the MIC.(If contributions did not occur in reality, then he certainly presented a pro Neocon military agenda, against a "liberal media")

I don't think Dr. Wall could come out and say that in public - so I am saying it. But? At the same time, Dr. Wall did the best he could to protect Christians who Christian lives were being destroyed by Thieme. And So I am protecting Christians.

Also, I'll review the paper your student is presenting, when and if I ever see it. Until then? I am skeptical of your claim on this forum, as so many thiemites claim so many falsehoods.

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2009 10:34AM by Truthtesty.

mvan6766

Short answer to your question about Ham and Noah: yes sexual connotations, no cursing was not skin colour. Some people think that the cursing was skin colour but the text does not say so. Cursing appears to be more that Canaan will be reduced in status.

The long answer that explains the passage:

Noah's son Ham is said in Genesis 9:22 to have seen the nakedness of his father and told his brothers. They in turn enter the tent backwards with a garment over their heads. The question becomes if Noah is in his tent and therefore hidden from view (cf Genesis 9:21) why does Ham tell his brothers about his father's nakedness? Secondly if Noah is in his tent why do Shem and Japetheth enter the tent to cover his nakedness when it would appear no one could see him anyway hence Ham had to inform his brothers. Note carefully that Shem and Japheth are said to be outside (Genesis 9:22) and if Noah's nakedness was visible then Ham would not have needed to have told them. So something else is going on. Furthermore if it was simply that Ham saw his father's nakedness how is it that Noah comes out of his drunken stupor and knows Ham has done something to him (Genesis 9:24) and then why does Noah curse Canaan the youngest son of Ham(Genesis 9:25). What about punishment for Ham?

The story does not provide sufficient information on which to stake a theological career however given the statements made, comparing other uses of some of the terms and, the severity of the cursing we may get an idea. First note that Noah's reaction is that Ham has done something to him (Genesis 9:24). This would seem to rule out voyeurism i.e. seeing his father's naked body. To uncover someone's nakedness was often a euphenism for sexual intercourse (cf Leviticus 20:17) whcih some say Ham performed a homosexual act on his father, but this would not explain why Canaan is cursed instead of Ham. Then again Deuteronomy 23:1 (cf Leviticus 18:7-8) speaks of not committing maternal incest which is viewed as uncovering your father's nakedness.

Now if you read Genesis 9:18 which precedes this story there is an interesting statement "Now the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem and Ham and Japheth; and Ham was the father of Canaan." Why is Ham the only one where a son is mentioned i.e. Canaan? Because the following story shows how Canaan was conceived. Noah is drunk (doesn't say passed out) has uncovered himself which would imply he is ready for coitus with Mrs Noah but possibly due to his drunkness has not started the act. Ham possibly sensing his father is drunk and wishing to humiliate him (this would explain why he tells his brothers) enters his father's tent, commits maternal incest with his mother and leaves the tent with Noah's garment. He tells his brothers showing them the garment which they they use to cover themselves to walk backwards in the tent to return to Noah. By doing this they do not see their father's nakedess which is both Noah's physical nakedness and also their mother's. Now Noah awakens out of this drunken stupor, knows what Ham has done to him (i.e. intercourse with Mrs Noah which is viewed as against the husband) possibly because he wasn't so drunk he could not see but was too drunk to comprehend and stop it.

Canaan is then born the son of Ham but by Ham's mother (maternal incest) this would then explain why Noah curses Canaan, why Canaan is declared to be the servant of Shem and Japheth (technically his half brothers), why Israel is heavily warned against following the practices of the Canaanites etc etc etc.

The whole pericope is full of sexual ineuendo and motive in the Hebrew text.

Whilst I have recounted the passage, there is more that could be said, understand that the text does not explicitly state the full story. The above reconstruction is based on what we can read from the text and that which provides a reasoned explanation of the events and the repercussions.

Cheers

Hi Mike and Cab18:

There is much to read. Spiritual liberty wrote some excellent posts on confession.

You will be able to read them if you use the "search" on this page.

A lot of work, often with sacrifice by many of us, help make this site possible.


Truthtesty

Truthtesty,

[...] Dr Wall stated emphatically that R.B. Thieme Jr "is a Christian brother well within the circle of orthodox Christianity". He is saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ our Lord. He is with the Lord now rejocing in his presence and all your vitriol cannot change that fact and that Dr Wall says (paraphrase) Thieme is a believer in Jesus Christ, a Christian brother. [...]

Of course you are sceptical of my claims [...] Furthermore doubt the forum will see much of my challenges to you because the moderator keeps editing the really good bits of my comments.

[Moderator note: No. just the insults and personal attacks, which are against the rules you agreed to before posting here. And if you continue you will be banned from this message board.]

Returning to my initial point: Thieme as a Christian brother and your attempt to associate Sodini as a Christian brother in order to down play Thieme as a Christian brother. Nice try but its a false analogy. Dr Wall has not written, to my knowledge, that Sodini was a Christian brother. However he did write that Thieme was a Christian brother. So your attempt to expunge from people's memories Dr Wall's clear statement shows up your attempt to muddy the waters.

To mvan6676. Well done in finding a church that teaches the scriptures and provides fellowship as well. Agree that in Thiemesville fellowship was limited virtually to a nod as you walked in the door and a nod as you walked out with your notebook bulging. A church that teaches the word of God (exegetically) does not have to be impersonal. Rather they should be using their knowledge to encourage others by their example. In a time of fellowship be it over a cup of tea or on a golf course one one learns from other believers about applying the word of God to their life. Our church has a solid teaching session as part of the Sunday morning worship, an informal fellowship afterwards as most do but then we have a number of functions outside of the church where we can get together to share our life's journey, what we have learnt from God's word, how God has answered prayer and so forth. This fellowship includes meals together, on public holidays there may be a picnic or canoeing, other times we have been paintballing etc. One of the times many find rewarding for fellowship and discusion is the monthly session with a local mission society helping produce their news magazines, mail outs and the like. Now here is the kicker. A lot of these people are Thiemetes who have seen the light of combining their doctrinal knowledge with fellowship and the other attributes of a church fellowship often taken for granted. Some of them are ex-Thiemetes i.e. they have shifted their doctrinal study to another source other than Thieme. I have found rather than smacking Thiemetes between the eyes [...] that showing them through the word of God and example 'the better way' has worked well.

Cheers,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2009 09:04PM by rrmoderator.

[...]

In a previous post I did not claim to be a teacher, only that I was proofreading and editing a ThM student paper. The student attends a prestigious institution and asked if I would undertake this role as he respects my language skills.

[...]

Dr. Wall said: "Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship."

Now if you actually read Dr Wall's thesis the quote is from pages 87-88 [http://www.texaswalls.org/immys/pdfs/thieme_by_joe_wall.pdf] this is what it actually says:

Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can possible produce in the carnal mind a "license mentality." In some cases it can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship.

[..]

The highlighted part has been left out [...] This is one of the points I wished to make and have requested all along. Accurately present information. Even when one reads the original thesis the highlighted comment is present (albeit without the typographical error "possible" instead of "possibly"

Also carefully note Dr Wall's last statement: the abuse of Thieme's teaching. We need to distinguish between what Thieme has taught and what his adherents have abused.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2009 11:06AM by rrmoderator.

To zeebrook: as much as it is possible to know in both cases, Sodini was as much a "Christian brother" as Thieme. And? You knew it on 081409.

Quote
zeebrook
Truthtesty,

[...] Dr Wall stated emphatically that R.B. Thieme Jr "is a Christian brother well within the circle of orthodox Christianity".

Truthtesty: He did not "emphatically" state that. That is your emphasis.


zeebrook: He is saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ our Lord.


Truthtesty: And Sodini is not?


zeebrook: He is with the Lord now rejocing in his presence


Truthtesty: And Sodini is not?


zeebrook: and all your vitriol cannot change that fact and that Dr Wall says (paraphrase) Thieme is a believer in Jesus Christ, a Christian brother. [...]


Truthtesty: I question that. Thieme denied the efficacious physical aspect of Jesus' death and the actual Blood of Jesus as efficacious. Thieme did not have faith in the full gospel of Jesus. Even though many "Christian brothers" such as Dr. Wall tried to give Thieme one last chance to turn around from error. Thieme never turned around.
If Thieme were not heretical before refusing Dr. Wall's Christian brother admonishment reaching out to him one last time, then after refusing Dr. Wall's attempt to help him, I think that is when Thieme solidified his heresy. Dr. Wall was giving Thieme one last chance.

Thieme's political murderous vitriol to Christian humanity and good works helped disable Sodini's human sense of right and wrong. And? 3 women are murdered because of Thieme's corrupt cult teachings. Thieme murdered, not with physical bullets(as far as we know), but with verbal bullets. Thieme doctrine destroyed Sodini(and others) while Sodini's body was still alive. Thieme was a mass murderer too. It was just slow verbal murder.
We get many reports (and I was close to witnessing a thiemite who committed suicide) of thiemites who have committed suicide.


zeebrook: Of course you are sceptical of my claims [...]


Truthtesty: With good reason. You bear false witness against me when you knew you did not have the facts.


zeebrook: Furthermore doubt the forum will see much of my challenges to you because the moderator keeps editing the really good bits of my comments.

[Moderator note: No. just the insults and personal attacks, which are against the rules you agreed to before posting here. And if you continue you will be banned from this message board.]


Truthtesty: lol more fictional exageration zeebrook? Are you ready to cry your being victimized? Have you no sense of shame about your fiction? Oh you are desensitized to shame "in front of inferior humans"? Yes, because Thieme reeducated you that way? Yes. So you only feel your sense of shame anew when faced with the public undeniable overwhelming truly sickening reality of Thieme's love of killer instinct murder and 3 dead murdered women and 1 premurdered mass murderer? Yes. Send your unfiltered challenges to Truthtesty@hotmail.com


zeebrook: Returning to my initial point: Thieme as a Christian brother and your attempt to associate Sodini as a Christian brother in order to down play Thieme as a Christian brother. Nice try but its a false analogy.


Truthtesty: How is it a false analogy? It is not and you know it. What you just stated is nothing but thiemite false factless rhetoric. My statement is not a false analogy, but it is true in reality and backed with facts. And you can't handle the ugly truth that Sodini believed exactly as Thieme. Sodini was as much of a "Christian brother" as Thieme. That is the ugly truth. Now why with all your so-called "Christian love" do you throw "just as much a" "Christian brother" Sodini under the bus? He went to the Thieme clone church Tetelestai for 13 years. He tried to apply right man right women with a women in the church. It didn't work. Sodini was thrown out. But? Now? Rickard says he's allowed in heaven, but he just wasn't allowed in Tetelestai. Rickard says he's allowed in heaven, but he just wasn't allowed in Tetelestai. Rickard says he's allowed in heaven, but he just wasn't allowed in Tetelestai.

Explain how I am "down play"ing Thieme as a Christian brother? How is this a false analogy? I am spot on. Did not Thieme teach that you could have faith in Jesus once and then turn around quit believing and worship satan the rest of your life murder and still go to heaven? Yes he did. So what is so revolting about "Christian brother" Sodini the premurdered mass murderer? Thieme a cult leader. Why are you ashamed to call Sodini a "Christian brother"? Why are you running away? Why do you consider this a false analogy? It is a true reality. You know it.

My attempt is right on because it is reality. Your argument is with reality (hint: you won't win). It is Sodini's "Christian brotherhood" of which you are ashamed. Sodini READING, LISTENING, ACCEPTING and STUDYING the "Integrity of G-d" and SUBMITTING to Thieme's false corrupt AUTHORITY, in preparation for his "Christian brother" mass murder. NONQUESTIONING Sodini showed the ugly truth of Thieme's "love" for a Christian's murderous killer instinct. As far as "do-right" Sodini it wasn't his fault or Thieme's false right-man/right-woman that he could not find a submissive obedient slave for a wife IT WAS THOSE LIBERAL FEMINISTS(that Thieme vitriolically hated)that were taking over America and driving America into collapse.


zeebrook: Dr Wall has not written, to my knowledge, that Sodini was a Christian brother.


Truthtesty: More false redirection? Tsk tsk. Ridiculous. No one ever said Dr. Wall even knew Sodini. But? You joined the forum on 081009 your friend in false accusations sistersoap posted on 081409 [forum.culteducation.com] "Jack Rickard, a deacon at Tetelestai church, told the press that Sodini is in heaven because “professing a faith in Jesus as Saviour means you will have complete eternal salvation” (“Once Saved, Always Saved,” Valley News Dispatch, Aug. 8, 2009)"

So zeebrook you knew Sodini was a "Christian brother" then on 081409, but you are too ashamed to admit to "Christian brother" Sodini believed exactly like Thieme.


zeebrook: However he did write that Thieme was a Christian brother. So your attempt to expunge from people's memories Dr Wall's clear statement shows up your attempt to muddy the waters.


Truthtesty: I am not muddying anything. I am not expunging anything. I said I am not convinced Thieme is a "Christian brother" and I stand by it. You are "selectively viewing and denying". You completly bypass your cohort sistersoap's post on Sodini's "Christian brotherhood". You try to play Sodini off as if there are no connections to Thieme but there are very very close connections between Sodini and Thieme.(Integrity of G-d).

"Christian brother" is a very broad term isn't it? Depends on who's using it.
I said I was not convinced. And? Since I was incapable of crawling inside Thieme's ear and seeing what he really thought, then? I don't know, YOU don't know and I am not convinced. I am not Dr. Wall. Only G-d, Thieme, Sodini, and satan know their true fate. You apparently just want to emphasize that one statement and ignore Dr. Wall's serious warnings about Thieme's false cult authority and serious errors of false teaching causing serious harm to "Christian brothers. And? You posted before and after your cohort sistersoap's post on Rickard.

Since I helped to bring Dr. Wall's dissertation to the internet for the world to read, no intelligent person can take seriously as truth your statement valid in any way. I AM NOT trying to hide Dr. Wall's view of Thieme in any way. Dr. Wall was a theological source.

Knapp(Thieme copycat) was ordained by Thieme in 1991. Sodini attended Knapp's church for 13 years. Knapp reportedly(Sodini's blog) taught Sodini that he could commit mass murder and go to heaven as long as he had faith in Jesus as saviour. No wonder Thieme taught the same thing.

Only G-d knows what Thieme and Sodini really believed and whether they are in heaven or are burning in hell together. But one thing is probably certain wherever Sodini is? His "Christian brother" Thieme is there with him. How fitting and just.

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate” (Titus 1:16).

Yes Titus 1:16 could be said of Thieme and his "once saved always saved" "Christian brother" Sodini, alike.


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2009 01:23PM by Truthtesty.

[...]

I never met Sodini. Also I had never heard of Tetelstai church before I joined this forum. So on either account I know nothing about them. I did meet R.B. Thieme Jr, spoken to him on a few occasions, and have attended Berachah Church during Thieme's ministry. In my dealings with Thieme he was courteous, patient, answered my questions, directed me to further research and I would concur with Dr Wall he was a Christian brother.

[Truthtesty...] states:

"Did not Thieme teach that you could have faith in Jesus once and then turn around quit believing and worship satan the rest of your life murder and still go to heaven? Yes he did."

To that person please provide the evidence for your quotation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2009 10:12PM by rrmoderator.