Well, surprisingly, the larger print helps me to understand better.....

Sisterosap

I grew up in a Thieme household. I was really surprised to find this forum. It feels so good to hear other peoples postings who were in the church, left, and have had similar experiences to mine. My experience, or my perception of it anyway is probably a little different because I experienced it as a child. Around the age of 8 my parents began listening to tapes. ( we lived in Arizona ) We had to listen to these tapes every morning 365 days a year. My Mom was already a little unbalanced in her style of discipline. But I can tell you that she became decidedly more harsh, and militaristic in her style under the coaching of Col Thieme. I am sure that his defenders would tell you that he teaches "doctrine" not styles of discipline. But the truth is there are a lot of opinions interwoven in each of these tapes from discipline styles, political opinions, and at the time I was listening (8 years old) scaring the crap out of me that the Russians were coming any day. Once he has you sold on the idea that he and only he can read and translate Gods word to you, and that he is "your" pastor/ teacher. All of these things are accepted as absolute truth without question.

I can also tell you that trying to raise a child who has an extremely independant spirit, and throwing away any consideration of the emotions or feelings of that child and strictly trying to rein them in with discipline is a recipe for disaster. If any of you Thieme defenders are currently raising a teenager who you are having trouble with, please seek the help of a trained counselor. I can assure you your problems will not get better through discipline.

At the age of 10, my Father received a job offer in a suburb of Dallas, it was offered to him by someone from Arizona who had moved there to join an offshoot church of Berachah. We moved to Grand Prairie Tx. , away from my Grandparents for the sole reason of being able to attend this church. To me this is significant, because this was not a better job. There is a lot of discussion here about whether this is a cult or not. I don't know that it is a cult but it is cultish. After several years of struggling I am now a strong Christian and I have traveled some. I can go to any major city in the U.S. and find multiple churches that are doing Gods work, and preaching truth. You don't have to move 1200 mile from your home to find a church that preaches the truth.

All along I had accepted all of this as the absolute truth. Around the age of 13 I began to have a lot of questions. The main one being, how was it that for the almost 2000 years since Christ had died there had been so many wise and great Christian people who had nothing more than their Bible to rely on. But now Col Thiemes translations were the only true ones, and everyone else out there with a Bible was just blissfully ignorant to the truth. Also I began to see that whether you were listening to the tapes, or going to my church (North Dallas Bible Church). There was no outreach to others, whether in the Church or out of it. It just seemed to me that Church should be about more than listening to lectures on translations from the original texts and going home. I might also add that we were driving an hour each way to get to this Church, every night of the week. My frustration with not being able to do normal kid things ( tennis, drama, seeing freinds) and my doubts about the church, led me at age 14 to tell my parents I wanted no more of this. They forced me to go for a while, but I fidgeted so much during service I think the Pastor told them to just let me stay home. Things became much worse from there on out. Because I was no longer taking in doctrine, and was drawing my parents down, I became somewhat of an outcast in my own family. It got so bad that I left home at the age of 14, and stayed with a freinds family throughout high school. My parents made no attempt to resolve anything or bring me home. (I was a straight a student on not on drugs or drinking at this time)I didn't realize the significance of this until my kids were that age. How can you just let your kid go at that age and not attempt to fix the situation? Well, counseling is out, dealing with emotions are out, they tried discipline, what other options were left by their belief system.

At the church where I am currently a member, I always get insights into scripture from my "Pastor Teacher", the messages are always preached straight out of the Bible, and yes he often helps me learn something I wouldn't have known by reading it on my own. But I can look at the text and verify what he is saying. Even by Col Thieme's admission all of us sin. How can you believe that for all these years, you can rely on him and him only to translate Gods word, without any of his own agenda getting in the way, especially since he doesn't have the accountability of everyone in the congregation being able to read Gods word for themselves.

I would really be interested in hearing from other people who grew up in a Thieme household, and what it was like for them.


To moderator...... I am new to this forum I wasn't sure if i was supposed to start a new topic, or reply. I thought if I started a new topic it would take me out of the Thieme loop and start a new one. Thanks so much for what you are doing here! I have spent the last 25 years thinking about this stuff.

thereporter's comments on the passing of R.B Thieme Jr are rather offensive. Whilst one can disagree with Thieme you still have to remember he was a Christian brother in Christ even as Truthtesty's mentor Dr Wall states in his thesis. It would be helpful thereporter if you controlled your verborrhea and put forward a succinct argument.

Despite what you may think I am not an apologist for Thieme but disdain the creating of straw man arguments for the purpose of deliberately misleading others. To say that Berachah has done "a lot of nothing good" is misleading and incorrect. I know of people who have studied under Thieme, and disagree with some of his teachings and opinions, but have been encouraged and are wonderful believers some are even Pastors (not in Thieme's mould). No way are these people afraid of doing "good work" and I have never heard of any Thieme follower, including the raging ones, being afraid of doing "good work".

What's this perjorative calling people "rank and file group of blood drinking goobers". I believed this forum was to refrain from such statements. thereporter says they (Thiemietes) "underscore no emotion". That is yet another incorrect statement. Even when I was there the comments on emotions were that they were fine to appreciate issues and things but not to be the ruling construct in one's life. Furhtermore you misconstrue issues relative to human viewpoint and divine viewpoint. Again my issue is state the Thieme position correctly so that we can make reasoned argument against them. thereporter's misrepresentations do not assist in this quest.

Yes thereporter, the devil is in the details, but when you misrepresent the detail, when you obfuscate the details with your "non-linear"(sic) statements the I think the you are not assisting the purpose of the forum to advance understanding of the influences of Thieme and how to provide assistance to those caught up in a mechanistic worship process.

Hi mvan6766,
Welcome to this group. I am glad you joined and gave us your testimony re Thieme. The effects on family is an aspect of living the Thieme type life that often goes unmentioned except in generalities. Thanks for making your specific remarks in that regard. It is helpful to warn others with this t ype information.

It is almost inconceivable that your parents did not attempt to retrieve you. If your pastor was true to Thieme type, they may have regarded you as lost to them and deeply into reversionism and beyond the pale. HOW SAD!

It will repay you greatly to read the whole message board. Take your time and come back often.

Sincerely,
Sistersoap

Thanks for your welcome, I have spent so many years wondering about this stuff. I only recently decided to research it. I spent a few years hating Thieme, as I began to mellow with age I started wondering if maybe my perceptions as a child were misleading me into believing this church was not as bad as I thought, and it was just my parents response to it that was wrong. I took your advice and spent several hours reading others posts who have come out of this church. Wow! There are so many common themes with what I was thinking/feeling as a child. The thing that has been most problematic for me is that there is some truth in what the guy teaches and he fills you with so much knowledge. When you go to a mainstream church it becomes really difficult to discern what is truth from the scriptures, and what is stuff that is the opinion of Col. Thieme.(in your own heart) There is so much stuff stuck in your head, it takes years to sort it out. That seems a little convoluted, but what I mean is that when you are in a church setting, unless you are a new believer, everybody is pretty much on the same page. But then when you get into a Bible study or something, things come up. And some of the stuff you already know ( kinda makes you feel smarter than the next guy) then they bring up stuff that you have never heard of (serving your fellow man, the love of Christ working through you, etc.) You begin to be very confused about what part of your belief system is of the Bible and what part of it is from Thieme. This really takes a long time to sort out. It makes you take apart every thing you hold as truth and check it against scripture. For anyone who hasn't been a part of this, this probably doesn't make sense. Sorry

Anyways, Thanks again for the welcome and Thanks or this site.

Hi mvan6766,

YOu put it very well! This is a struggle which all of us who have left Thieme's teachings go through. We leave the "cultic" group, but a lot of it remains with us for a long, long time. We learn to distrust all our perceptions at first, but after a while, we will get our bearings and begin to relearn truth. You are quite right that it makes you question everything you have believed. This is actually a good thing if it causes you to reexamine your beliefs and check out what Scripture says. It will take you a long time to read and believe the truth again, but if you stick with it, you will become better, stronger in your faith than you ever could have "under" Thieme.

The personal testimonies of those who have already left Thieme were the most powerful influence in reassuring me that I was not alone and that I was on the right track in questioning Thieme and in leaving his teachings. The "privacy of the priesthood" doctrine kept us divided from each other so we could not usefully compare notes, and our fear of leaving "truth" kept us from examining it with an objective attitude. We have to leave and get our bearings before we can truly evaluate the meaning of our troubles. YOu can be a blessing to others online and in person by sharing this testimony. There is error similar to what Thieme taught in many "mainline" churches and you can bless others once God has taught you His truth from His Word about these things.

When I first began looking at other churches a few years ago and visited around I enjoyed the freedom to attend anywhere I wanted and to meet other Christians despite what Thieme had taught us about their inferiority. Then I would get attacked by a strong feeling of guilt. I "heard a voice" that condemned me for enjoying this experience and it was quite puzzling and depressing. Then another person pointed out to me that this was very typical of the "voice of the abuser, Thieme" telling me to "come back to him." Well, of course, that was not an option any longer. After a while, that "voice" will go away.

You will become stronger for all the travail you are going through and you will have a message others need to hear, regardless of whether or not they have ever heard of R.B.Thieme, jr. God will sort things out for you. Simply remain open to what He wants to teach you. Stay in touch here. Keep on asking for help you feel you need until you get that help from SOMEONE. It is surprisingly hard to find counselors who are knowledgeable about cults and willing to help those of us who are in the process of leaving this group. Keep on looking for those to whom God arranges to minister to you and encourage you. Regard any negative or disappointing response from others whom you tell about this as just another alternative to remove from your list and move on to the next person or organization.

I am so glad that you posted here. It takes courage to make that first step and reveal yourself. Thieme's fear mongering is a huge barrier to opening up about this. And as you noted above, it is very confusing to become aware of the mixture of truth and error he taught. That does make it harder to leave. But you can keep the truth and drip the error, especially as you begin to realize that he was far from unique in teaching those truths. His twist on that truth diminished the power of the truth, so don't worry about feeling guilty if you find that the effect of truth in your life seems to be much less to you than it should be. That truth will eventually do what God means for it to do in your life. Just keep on plugging, spend some time in the Scriptures as often as you can. It will begin to feed you despite what Thieme said to the contrary.

Thanks again for sharing your testimony. I look forward to hearing more from you when you have time.

Cheers,
Sistersoap

To mvan6766:

Morpheus: Welcome to the desert of the real.

Morpheus: You have to let it all go, Neo. Fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind.

Neo: What is happening to me?

Morpheus: You are the One, Neo. You see, you may have spent the last few years looking for me, but I have spent my entire life looking for you.

Truthtesty: this is a view of the desert of the real. This the real world outside of the fictional matrix view of Thieme, which was pulled over your eyes.

You are "the One" for the truth of you. You are responsible for you. You have always been in total control of your beliefs, you were just "convinced" to " just let Thieme control your beliefs". In doing so you were weakened but now you must "he's beginning to believe" and turn and fight for your own identity and the real truth.

I think the truth of G-d is looking for all of us, but maybe we were "listening" to someone else instead of "listening" for G-d.

You were exposed at a young age (close to my age I was exposed to the ignorance of Thieme at 10)

2 important things:

I think you must learn to separate the corrupt authority of Thieme from the perfect authority of G-d.

And I say 1 John 2:27 is very important to recovery.

But you seem already recovered? You have thought about this, yet it appears you have already "begun to believe" without Thieme?

And you are happy this site is here?

Welcome. You will find the facts on this website about the deceptions and falsehoods of Thieme.

For those who listened to many Thieme tapes, this website and community is the "desert of the real".


Truthtesty

To zeebrook:

I have no problems with thereporter's comments.

It could just as easily be said of you: "It would be helpful if you controlled your verborrhea and put forward a succinct argument."

You still have not answered your personal attack on me. You have no credibilty with me to "call" thereporter, when? Thereporter has every right to express himself and his anger at Thieme, on this anti-Thieme's cult forum.

If you want specific debate then present it, otherwise you are opining for Thieme's evil cause.

Berachah has created a lot of unnecessary evil and has damaged people's lives. For whatever minor truths Thieme did manage to mix with his extreme error? Thieme's evilspeak was still very damaging to people's lives.

You are way off about "good works" and "emotions". You are an apologist for Thieme. Thieme vitriolically attacked "good works" and "emotions" time after time and day after day. Thiemites consciences were/are destroyed and dysfunctional, about emotions and good works.

It is not just an "academic" matter of disagreeing with Thieme's evil. You don't just "academically" disagree with a Sodini-like evil event. This is were you are out of touch with reality. You should be horrified at Thieme's evil(Rev. Walters and many others are). Yet? You passively "academically" disagree? That's lala land. That's like academically disagreeing with 911.

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Truthtesty

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zeebrook
Since when have I been banned and why? I have said nothing offensive, have offered information, have been accused, vilified etc and now you say I am banned. First I know of it.

To zeebrook: hold on before your claiming all this being abused and victimized. First take a look at what you have done. Answer the "less than honest" statement you said to me. I have asked you this once before.

Also for everyone who would claim I get special allowances from the moderator then note the moderator said nothing about you calling me a liar, even though you had no way of knowing the truth one way or another. You joined forces with sister in your combined lying attack on me.

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Truthtesty

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zeebrook
I am with you Sistersoap on Truthtesty's less that honest responses...Well done Sistersoap, and keep it up.

To Zeebrook: Would you explain your personal attack to me? And about me? You stated my responses were "less than honest" You said "I am with you Sistersoap on Truthtesty's less that honest responses." It seems that saying someone being "less than honest" is the same as calling them a liar.

Are you calling me a liar or are you trying to suggest that I am a liar and no one should give me creedance?

Are you here to try to discredit me?

Truthtesty

But you are unable to discredit me because I am telling the truth.

Again you have no right to make personal comments on Dr. Wall and myself of which? You do not have all the details. Dr. Wall was not my "mentor". You should keep your mouth shut about someone else's personal life of which you are not qualified, nor authorized to talk about.

You'd have everyone believe that Thieme was a "Christian brother", while Reverend Walters and others have called Thieme "heretical" AND? That was with good reason. Thieme was deceitful about the Word of G-d, which I and others, have in detail explained on this forum.
I am not convinced that Thieme was a "Christian brother". Thieme could have been just as nazI doktor Gerhard Kittle was for Adolph Hitler - a propagandist of the Bible for political gain. Well who could have possibly have been paying Thieme? HL Hunt(and other Texas oil men(Neocons which Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower said "they are stupid" in a letter to his brother) could have been paying Thieme for their neocon dixiecrat takeover of the Republican party. It is apparent and I have proven that Thieme's intentions were dishonest for Neocon political gain. For whatever reason Thieme falsified the Word. And? That is not a "Christian brother".

No one is pulling up "strawman arguments" here. This is the typical Thieme line in response to calling Thieme to the carpet. You claim you are not an apologist for Thieme, but you are being an apologist for Thieme. Instead of accurately giving both sides (the facts) of the argument Thieme would just claim the accuser(s) were creating strawman arguments. They were not. They were presenting facts (Dr. Waite among them). It was Thieme's false teachings and Thieme's fictional attack on them that was false. And thiemites would just once again copycat whatever Thieme evils that were spoken, including believing (without the facts) that Thieme's accusers were creating strawman arguments.

Thieme thought he could get away with it because he never thought anyone would ever be able to review in detail what he taught. But? Thieme was wrong again. As neocon verbally challenged Bush would say "the internets" - Thieme never saw "the internet" coming and it completly blindsided his agenda. For example, Dr. Wall's dissertation can be read worldwide and dowloaded in minutes if not seconds. Thieme would have Houston police escort out anyone who spoke up about his false teachings. Thieme expected "to get away with it", but he didn't.

You say you are here to present "Thieme's position correctly". Well? Go ahead. Start. Present Thieme's exact words and I will show you what is wrong. Until then? You are an opining apologist for Thieme. You are whining. This forum is not for people to interrupt or judge others who are "working out" their Thieme issues. If you don't like people's outbursts of anger about Thieme? You can leave. You say you are here to present "Thieme's position correctly". So why don't you apologize for calling me a liar then present Thieme's exact "devil is in the details" words and I will show you what is wrong.


Truthtesty

Truthtesty,
Your mentor Dr Wall states in his thesis that you so prolificly comment about on page 36 of the pdf form states of Thieme "he is a Christian brother well within the circle of orthodox Christianity".

You comment that i would "have everyone believe that Thieme was a "Christian brother"". Yes I believe Thieme is a Christian brother exactly as Dr Wall states, so it is not just me.

However you pronounce that you are "not convinced that Thieme was a "Christian brother"". Does this mean that Dr Wall's analysis of Thieme's spiritual standing was wrong? Did he miss something? What else has Dr Wall got wrong then in which you could enlighten us?

[...]

Oh by the way I just finished proofreading and editing a paper to be presented to a local bible conference by a ThM student in which he is presenting arguments against one of Thieme's pet areas of teaching. This bible conference is sponsored by a church whose pastor was the local Thieme tape franchise hence the attendees will be predominantly "the faithful". This student has written the paper clearly presenting the issue and presents grammatical and lexical details which should guide the attendees to understand where Thieme's logic faltered and thus encourage them to look further afield. This rather than your sledgehammer, damn the lot of them, they are all going to hell approach. My experience is to use Thiemetes love for the scriptures and lead them through the doctrines with clear information. Whilst their love for doctrine is generally more "love of Thieme's viewpoint" it can be used to lead them through the argument and clear the way to appreciate exactly what the scriptures say.

An example from "Creation, Chaos and Restoration" Thieme says of Genesis 1:1 that
"You must understand that only in the qal stem does BARA means “to create out of nothing.”" and "BARA - created. bara means to “create something out of nothing”; furthermore, the “something created” is not necessarily visibile or observed." and "ASAH - made. This word has the concept of building out of something already in existence.

So now get the Thiemete to turn to Genesis 5:1 which says "In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God." Get out your interlinear Hebrew bible and show them the word "created" which is BARA. Was man made out of nothing? No, from the ground. An astute Thiemete will argue but Genesis 1:26-27 says God made man's soul first out of nothing. Then show them the word "He made him" in Genesis 5:1 which is ASAH i.e. from something pre-existing. So in Genesis 1:26 we have man created (BARA) in God's likeness which is explained as being from something existing (ASAH) according to Genesis 5:1. So Thieme's statement that "BARA means “to create out of nothing" is not strictly correct. It only means "out of nothing" when no material is actually stated. This shows the Thiemete that not everything Thieme said about the original language was correct. (One has to watch out for Genesis 1:26 because BARA there is an imperfect and Thieme's point relates to the Qal. The argument is actually confirmed by Genesis 1:27 where we do have the Qal "God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2009 09:30PM by rrmoderator.

Hi Zee,

So the presentation will be strictly in opposition to the old Earth/gap theory doctrine? Just wonderin'. It's hardly a uniquely distinctive Thieme teaching.

prebound