Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
prebound
()
Date: September 11, 2009 02:33PM
Quote
Truthtesty
So pinochio's nose grows longer. Again, either show me 1 exact example of "scar tissue" or show me how your trying to turn Thieme's words inside out.
You tried to test this forum with Thieme's loaded language and you have failed. Lol
Thanks again for the laugh.
Have a nice day,
Truthtesty
Hey Truthtesty, You're very welcome. I don't know how you can accuse me of being an agitator, when you're the only one responding---and you seem to be having such a good time. You might get lonely if I left the forum. ;)
As indicated in the earlier post to the moderator, I do agree that I said some inappropriate things to thereporter. Some of that was born out of frustration with my inability to follow his unusual syntax. But of course, there's never an excuse for rudeness. Again, these forums are very impersonal--and that can be very unhealthy. We can anonymously type things here that common decency would never allow us to say face to face.
I'm not playing the victim here, but you make far too many assumptions about complete strangers. I haven't payed much attention to Col. Thieme since 1991. I never considered the man to be an antichrist, but was never very comfortable with his ministry; the cult of personality that surrounded him, the hard right militarism pushed from the pulpit, the strange jargon, his stilted "corrected" translations, etc. . .
Nevertheless it was what I was familiar with. My parents were members of a "clone" church for many years. They have left what they now consider to be a cult. I have never considered Berachah proper (or its "clones") to be cults, but I don't believe this thread is in the wrong place (Destructive Churches).
Now let's take another crack at the "scar tissue" issue. Please note my use of the reassuring quotation marks. I'm sure we would be fast friends by now, if I had only remembered to use them more consistently in the previous post. ;)
I'm not objecting to the use of the term "scar tissue" as a metaphor for a damaged soul. But that doesn't mean I was worshiping Pastor Thieme's jargon or following his lead. Rather, I was trying to say that many of the negative things associated with his ministry were CAUSING much of the very "scar tissue" that he was supposedly warning his congregation against. It's also called irony.
I don't know how to make that any more clear. We are quickly reaching the point where it doesn't matter what I say:
---If I said RB Thieme was Christ Jesus come in the flesh again, you would proclaim you were right about me from the beginning.
---If I said RB Thieme was a dog turd under my heel, you would just as confidently assert that I'm a lying undercover Thiemite with an agenda.
Nevertheless, as long as your having fun, I will attempt to continue our dialogue. Hope springs eternal.
prebound
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: September 12, 2009 11:35AM
Truthtesty:Quote
sistersoap
Hey prebound,
...
I believe you when you say you are not defending Thieme. Failing to use QUOTATION MARKS to suit Testy is not a reliable BS meter. Just because you try to use moderate language and do not respond to attacks with like attacks in return does not mean you are an 'undercover" Thieme follower. You would not be in the church you are in now if you had not left thieme's teachings.
Prove it. Prove because of the church that he goes to now that he is not a thiemite nor? sympathetic to Thieme's falsehoods.
Prebound specifically mentioned using quotes as if to explain that he was not thiemite, then prebound doesn't use the quotes? Then you "believe" him? Hey don't blame me if prebound can't accurately portray his own position and live up to his own explanation. It wasn't to "suit Testy" it was prebounds own explantion that prebound made a mistake about? Prebound jumps in here throwing around Thieme's loaded language and then you would side with prebound without question? Go ahead sister explain how there is no possible way that prebound is not a thiemite nor sympathetic to Thieme's evil language, simply because he goes to that church?
And how? Thieme's language used irresponsibly on this forum is not upsetting to ex-thiemies? And future ex-thiemites. Explain how you have overlysimplified peoples issues with Thieme into overly simplistic "Troll/non-troll" categories.
Why could prebound not be direct with his intentions to begin with instead of being vague? Prebound is slinging around Thieme's loaded language? It was if he was looking for trouble.
Sister: i am sorry you are being treated as if you were a traitor to the cause, because I don't believe that you are.
Truthtesty: prebound is being tested because he is using Thieme's evil language haphazardly and it doesn't appear he even has an accurate grasp of the terms. And? Prebound did not clarify his intent originally. I compare his use of Thieme's language in here as similar to someone wielding a gun in a bank. How do you think people will react? Use your common sense. You believe? As if that alone should be an acceptable standard? You believed Thieme for 30 years. How did that work out for you? We don't have 30 minutes to be in error let alone 30 years to discover what is wrong. Now? You overlook an obvious error in prebounds own explanation? And still you believe? Because he goes to that church? Go ahead sister explain that one.
Sister: The real trolls are very easy to spot and deal with. It does not require higher education or "epignosis" to reveal them.
Truthtesty: No one said it did. But? Most trolls are easy to spot, but? Perhaps even your best friend may not have "worked out" and clarified some "Thieme evil" that has been trained and ingrained into their personality and that they are mostly unaware of. Ask yourself this Sister when was the 1st time you were "victimized"? Not just by Thieme, but by any one. Would you not help your best friend with a Thieme issue(that they were unaware of) just because you considered them a non-thiemite? Or would you say "ah they aren't a troll, they don't need to be made aware of their errored way with Thieme"? It can take years, over 30 years in some cases, to work out Thieme issues. I think your overly quick categorizing into Troll/non-troll categories is too simplistic, easy to fool, and doesn't deal in detail with the real issues that people have with Thieme.
Sister: Mind reading is a very speculative process, would you not agree?
Truthtesty: This could be said about you, so explain how you know that prebound is not a thiemite or suffering from thiemite errored sympathies. And yes I was attacked by Don Qixote on this forum and gee the person did not have the couarge to apologize for their "tilted windmill attack" lie, even though they knew they were lying.
And? The only person who has been run off is thereporter. The reporter appeared to be going thhrough Thiemie's booklet the Integrity of g-od
Truthtesty
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2009 12:00PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: September 14, 2009 08:18AM
prebound quote: "I'm not objecting to the use of the term "scar tissue" as a metaphor for a damaged soul. But that doesn't mean I was worshiping Pastor Thieme's jargon or following his lead. Rather, I was trying to say that many of the negative things associated with his ministry were CAUSING much of the very "scar tissue" that he was supposedly warning his congregation against. It's also called irony."
To prebound:
Well perhaps you should object to Thieme's definition of "scar tissue". The how and the why are right in the open but difficult to see. No disrespect but I think you have it half right.
I agree with "many of the negative things associated with his ministry were CAUSING much of the" damage "that he was supposedly warning his congregation against."
But...
Dr. Wall lists Thieme's "APPENDIX A
GLOSSARY OF THIEME'S DISTINCTIVE TERMINOLOGY
"... 36. Scar Tissue: The concept of "hardening of the heart." Negative volition
toward God or Bible doctrine puts scar tissue on the soul; i.e., the heart
[www.texaswalls.org]
I submit that a major problem that Thieme causes in Thiemes definition: " Negative volition
toward God or Bible doctrine puts scar tissue on the soul; ", is that Thieme include's in every case, term, and definition, his corrupting false authority, as a part of "Bible doctrine" (actually "Thieme doctrine" in Thieme's case). Rejecting the word or will of Thieme's and his false authority is not a rejection of the word or will of G-d, but Thieme would have you believe that it is equivalent to rejecting the word or will of G-d. That is false and is cultic and the heigth of ignorant arrogance...
And? To those poor thiemites who submit to this mush? What are they "equivalent to"? If they reject Thieme's false authority? Well for starters behind door number 1 Thieme has the worst of Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of G-d through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Those poor thiemites are caught in a false vicious circle. They want to reject Thieme's authority, but are afraid to reject it because if they do then they fear they would be all the worst of Eph. 4:17,18,19. ie: hardness of heart, given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness... etc... Plus? everything Thieme said negatively about punishment from G-d, the earth spinning off its axis, etc...
But? if they don't reject Thieme' false authority it is immediately corrupting and dulls the perception.
And? It is completely false corrupting, distracting, destabilizing and unecessary stumbling block which plants the behaviour seed of dysfunction. And this dysfunction grows and grows. Did it send sodini over the edge? It's possible. Perhaps the Alleghany police will release more information.
The only authority which requires submission is the perfect authority of Jesus/G -d.
Every Thieme definition eventually runs into Thieme's false concept of authority.
Therefore? Therefore every Thieme definition of terms has a corrupt exponent.
The only reason I see to study Thieme's problems is to help people escape and heal.
Otherwise it is better to stay away completely and learn from your own annointing and the Bible than to risk the mine field of Thieme.
Dr. Wall continues his explanation of Thieme's system:
"Stage seven in the development of a reversionistic believer is "scar tissue
of the soul." This is Thieme's term for "hardening of the heart" in Ephesians 4:18"
So Thieme states "scar tissue of the soul" which doesn't exist in greek in Ephesians 4:18 is the 7th stage of Reversionism.
Dr. Wall states: Critique
As is the case in much of Thieme's teaching, for the sake of his categories,
he frequently reduces too much to one term. By so doing, he can, without his
students' being aware, force Scripture after Scripture through the funnel of his
concept of what Bible doctrine is. Thus, based upon Thieme's definition of
reversionism, it would seem that it would follow automatically in the minds of his
students that anyone who rejects Thieme's autocratic authority or questions his
doctrine should be tagged a reversionist...
Truthtesty: (HELLO? CULT)
Dr. Wall: ...Much of what Thieme teaches relative to the emotional revolt of the soul,
blackout of the soul and scar tissue of the soul seems to have some valid scriptural
support. One could wish that he could furnish more solid exegetical support for
some of the other stages of reversionism and for the particular order of the stages."
Truthtesty: Ok? Dr. Wall has to really scrape to credit Thieme with some valid scriptural
support, here. Because it looks as if the other stages don't exist and Thieme made them up along with their fictitious order.
Also if one looks at Ephesians 4:18 will they find "scar tissue"? No they won't.
Ephesians 4:18 refers to the hardness of hearts of the other gentiles. The author said do not have a hard heart as the other gentiles do. The author did not say you would develop "scar tissue" if you had a hard heart as the gentiles.
Also note "scar tissue" is a "thought stopper" or a "thing stopper". Instead of lookin at the "things"/ words the author intended the thieme student is stopped from looking at biblical "things" and is falsley redirected to Thieme's false things.
I caution anyone to stay away but if they must, then doublecheck what Thieme says against the Bible, greek, and respected theologians, if they are going to reference Thieme's words at all. Also I caution to watch out for the false corrupting authority exponent in every case.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 08:38AM by Truthtesty.
To prebound:
Well perhaps you should object to Thieme's definition of "scar tissue". The how and the why are right in the open but difficult to see. No disrespect but I think you have it half right.
I agree with "many of the negative things associated with his ministry were CAUSING much of the" damage "that he was supposedly warning his congregation against."
But...
Dr. Wall lists Thieme's "APPENDIX A
GLOSSARY OF THIEME'S DISTINCTIVE TERMINOLOGY
"... 36. Scar Tissue: The concept of "hardening of the heart." Negative volition
toward God or Bible doctrine puts scar tissue on the soul; i.e., the heart
[www.texaswalls.org]
I submit that a major problem that Thieme causes in Thiemes definition: " Negative volition
toward God or Bible doctrine puts scar tissue on the soul; ", is that Thieme include's in every case, term, and definition, his corrupting false authority, as a part of "Bible doctrine" (actually "Thieme doctrine" in Thieme's case). Rejecting the word or will of Thieme's and his false authority is not a rejection of the word or will of G-d, but Thieme would have you believe that it is equivalent to rejecting the word or will of G-d. That is false and is cultic and the heigth of ignorant arrogance...
And? To those poor thiemites who submit to this mush? What are they "equivalent to"? If they reject Thieme's false authority? Well for starters behind door number 1 Thieme has the worst of Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of G-d through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Those poor thiemites are caught in a false vicious circle. They want to reject Thieme's authority, but are afraid to reject it because if they do then they fear they would be all the worst of Eph. 4:17,18,19. ie: hardness of heart, given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness... etc... Plus? everything Thieme said negatively about punishment from G-d, the earth spinning off its axis, etc...
But? if they don't reject Thieme' false authority it is immediately corrupting and dulls the perception.
And? It is completely false corrupting, distracting, destabilizing and unecessary stumbling block which plants the behaviour seed of dysfunction. And this dysfunction grows and grows. Did it send sodini over the edge? It's possible. Perhaps the Alleghany police will release more information.
The only authority which requires submission is the perfect authority of Jesus/G -d.
Every Thieme definition eventually runs into Thieme's false concept of authority.
Therefore? Therefore every Thieme definition of terms has a corrupt exponent.
The only reason I see to study Thieme's problems is to help people escape and heal.
Otherwise it is better to stay away completely and learn from your own annointing and the Bible than to risk the mine field of Thieme.
Dr. Wall continues his explanation of Thieme's system:
"Stage seven in the development of a reversionistic believer is "scar tissue
of the soul." This is Thieme's term for "hardening of the heart" in Ephesians 4:18"
So Thieme states "scar tissue of the soul" which doesn't exist in greek in Ephesians 4:18 is the 7th stage of Reversionism.
Dr. Wall states: Critique
As is the case in much of Thieme's teaching, for the sake of his categories,
he frequently reduces too much to one term. By so doing, he can, without his
students' being aware, force Scripture after Scripture through the funnel of his
concept of what Bible doctrine is. Thus, based upon Thieme's definition of
reversionism, it would seem that it would follow automatically in the minds of his
students that anyone who rejects Thieme's autocratic authority or questions his
doctrine should be tagged a reversionist...
Truthtesty: (HELLO? CULT)
Dr. Wall: ...Much of what Thieme teaches relative to the emotional revolt of the soul,
blackout of the soul and scar tissue of the soul seems to have some valid scriptural
support. One could wish that he could furnish more solid exegetical support for
some of the other stages of reversionism and for the particular order of the stages."
Truthtesty: Ok? Dr. Wall has to really scrape to credit Thieme with some valid scriptural
support, here. Because it looks as if the other stages don't exist and Thieme made them up along with their fictitious order.
Also if one looks at Ephesians 4:18 will they find "scar tissue"? No they won't.
Ephesians 4:18 refers to the hardness of hearts of the other gentiles. The author said do not have a hard heart as the other gentiles do. The author did not say you would develop "scar tissue" if you had a hard heart as the gentiles.
Also note "scar tissue" is a "thought stopper" or a "thing stopper". Instead of lookin at the "things"/ words the author intended the thieme student is stopped from looking at biblical "things" and is falsley redirected to Thieme's false things.
I caution anyone to stay away but if they must, then doublecheck what Thieme says against the Bible, greek, and respected theologians, if they are going to reference Thieme's words at all. Also I caution to watch out for the false corrupting authority exponent in every case.
Truthtesty
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2009 08:38AM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: September 16, 2009 08:34AM
Quote
prebound
I'm not playing the victim here, but you make far too many assumptions about complete strangers.
Truthtesty: I'll be the judge of my assumptions. Everyone makes many assumptions about everyone especially when they first meet.
For example when you and sister first met did you not assume a lot more things then, than you do now?
My testing has served me and others quite well. I have uncovered much deceitful manipulations. I have shown people how to deal with thiemites in their most deceitful aggressive attack states.
When people jump into this forum quite often and are deceitful quite often(not just thiemites as in the case that just occurred), it is only logical to test for their deceit. Would you not agree?
Also I did not accuse you of being Sodini-like, I questioned you if you had Sodini-like intentions. There's a difference. And,
I did call you on presenting false Thieme info.
Quote
prebound
... I have never considered Berachah proper (or its "clones") to be cults, but I don't believe this thread is in the wrong place (Destructive Churches).
prebound
Truthtesty: I would like to know how you make your distinction between "cults" vs "destructive churches". I have clearly shown the cult evidence on Thieme on this forum. I'd be glad when I have time to show the evidence,if your intrested, but for now would you show your reasoning on why you do not consider Thieme a cult leader and why you wpuld just consider it a destructive church and how do you consider it destructive?
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: September 21, 2009 09:14AM
To thereporter:
I can see you were attempting to critique Thieme's "Integrity of G-d". Though we are not 100 % agreement on everything, would you continue?
Truthtesty
I can see you were attempting to critique Thieme's "Integrity of G-d". Though we are not 100 % agreement on everything, would you continue?
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: September 21, 2009 10:15AM
To the Forum:
To prebound:
I think many things you are saying are correct.
But...
I do not think you understand the nature of the beast of the cult.
Are people in cults just stupid? Do people in cults "realize" that they are in cults? I don't think so. I think they think they are doing what they think is "right".
Some say Thieme was a cult leader some say he was not. I say he was because he met the majority of criteria for a cult and no cult meets every single definition. How do I know Thieme was a cult leader? Because I experienced the dysfunctionalization of the Thieme cult as a teenager. I was strong enough to recover, while Sodini was not. I suffered intense financial, emotional, and mental psycological warfare as retribution for leaving the Thieme cult.
I think part of the errored view that Thieme was not a cult leader, is that since he opined on some issues correctly, then he should be absolved of any and all cult definition. This is false. The flip-side is true. Steven Hassan (Jewish author of "Combatting Cult Mind Control") said (paraphrasing) that you can learn some goods things from cults BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT A CULT.
I agree prebound, the deepest scars an individual gets from the Thieme cult is from trusting Thieme. I have never regretted leaving, although I was punished severly. Psycologically, emotionally, and mentally it is possible to recover. However the scars from one's own incompetent dysfunctional "super-hero" behaviour AS TAUGHT BY THIEME (it is the direct result of unwitting attempting of 100 % unquestioning trusting Thieme's falsely assumed "all knowingness" and false authority) WHICH? CAUSE dysfunctional behaviour that leads to the loss of life, limb, and function, CAUSE the loss of sanity and psycological balance, and CAUSE the loss of self-control and therefore loss of faith. THAT is a CULT.
There are many clear examples of Thieme's cult doctrine on this forum.
My previous post (including Dr. Wall's quote) : [forum.culteducation.com]
Dr. Wall has stated that Thieme's false authority can legitamately be described as the Diotrophes false lording over authority.
Here is another example:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Something to consider for long-term members who may not have come across Lifton's writings. (The following text was recently posted in the LGAT forum):- Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality: 1. Control of communication 2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation 3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology 4. Obsessive demands for confession 5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless 6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought 7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine 8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
Another example I will show you: [forum.culteducation.com]
Here is another witness that says Thieme was a cult leader:
[forum.culteducation.com]
"I can tell you it is a cult because I went to one of his churches in my area for many months. The Pastor learned from him and uses his studies and doctrine. The one thing they teach over and over and over again in every bible study is that their way is the right way and if anyone comes to talk them about something different or against their teachings they are from Satan and they are misguided. They teach not to get mad at them, but encourage them to come to bible study as much as possible and someday they will learn the truth. When you talk to these people they are very reluctant to talk about anything spiritual. they only get their teaching from the pastor and they can not nor most of the time try to defend what they believe in scripture. They quote scripture but out of context. They teach that you need to get the people in and out quick because you don't want them to spend to much time with each other. They believe that you can sin and do whatever you want in the world as long as you come to bible class. They believe no one has a right to question anyone else about their actions. They believe the job of the pastor is to teach the Word only and not to get involved in what the people in his church are doing evening if they are sinning. They believe whatever you do outside the church doors is between you and God. There are many other things they teach and believe that go against the Word. The church I went to was Grace Bible Church. This pastor was kicked out of his first church by his elders and pastors in the 90's because his teachings started to go against what they believed was the truth. At that time they were having bible study groups and normal church functions of fellowship. which is where the people of the church started to discuss things without the Pastor and found his teachings to be wrong. He has corrected that error, because now the only place you can learn the Word is from Him and from the church no groups are allowed anymore. if anyone has any questions I would be happy to help or answer them. I have studied the Word of God for many years and in the original languages, and with The Holy Spirit's wisdom i could see right through the false doctrine. The Father kept my mind open and spiritual awake from the deception of this church. In His Service I pray this is a warning to anyone who is looking for a church "
prebound, there are many more examples these are just a few. So again you show up here and you say Thieme is not a cult, but a destructive church. How do you make a distinction that Thieme is not a cult, but just a destructive church?
Just because a murderer can shave, get a hair-cut, dress-up in a suit, and appear "innocent" in air conditioned courtroom, doesn't mean he's not a murderer he just "looks" less menacing. The onlooker's defenses are not as high as they should be.
Truthtesty
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2009 10:38AM by Truthtesty.
Quote
prebound
...
Nevertheless it was what I was familiar with. My parents were members of a "clone" church for many years. They have left what they now consider to be a cult. I have never considered Berachah proper (or its "clones") to be cults, but I don't believe this thread is in the wrong place (Destructive Churches).
Now let's take another crack at the "scar tissue" issue. Please note my use of the reassuring quotation marks. I'm sure we would be fast friends by now, if I had only remembered to use them more consistently in the previous post. ;)
...
I'm not objecting to the use of the term "scar tissue" as a metaphor for a damaged soul. But that doesn't mean I was worshiping Pastor Thieme's jargon or following his lead. Rather, I was trying to say that many of the negative things associated with his ministry were CAUSING much of the very "scar tissue" that he was supposedly warning his congregation against. It's also called irony.
...
Nevertheless, as long as your having fun, I will attempt to continue our dialogue. Hope springs eternal.
prebound
To prebound:
I think many things you are saying are correct.
But...
I do not think you understand the nature of the beast of the cult.
Are people in cults just stupid? Do people in cults "realize" that they are in cults? I don't think so. I think they think they are doing what they think is "right".
Some say Thieme was a cult leader some say he was not. I say he was because he met the majority of criteria for a cult and no cult meets every single definition. How do I know Thieme was a cult leader? Because I experienced the dysfunctionalization of the Thieme cult as a teenager. I was strong enough to recover, while Sodini was not. I suffered intense financial, emotional, and mental psycological warfare as retribution for leaving the Thieme cult.
I think part of the errored view that Thieme was not a cult leader, is that since he opined on some issues correctly, then he should be absolved of any and all cult definition. This is false. The flip-side is true. Steven Hassan (Jewish author of "Combatting Cult Mind Control") said (paraphrasing) that you can learn some goods things from cults BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT A CULT.
I agree prebound, the deepest scars an individual gets from the Thieme cult is from trusting Thieme. I have never regretted leaving, although I was punished severly. Psycologically, emotionally, and mentally it is possible to recover. However the scars from one's own incompetent dysfunctional "super-hero" behaviour AS TAUGHT BY THIEME (it is the direct result of unwitting attempting of 100 % unquestioning trusting Thieme's falsely assumed "all knowingness" and false authority) WHICH? CAUSE dysfunctional behaviour that leads to the loss of life, limb, and function, CAUSE the loss of sanity and psycological balance, and CAUSE the loss of self-control and therefore loss of faith. THAT is a CULT.
There are many clear examples of Thieme's cult doctrine on this forum.
My previous post (including Dr. Wall's quote) : [forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
Thieme quote: "The spiritual gift of pastor-teacher must be exercised with authority (Tit. 2:15); therefore, monologue, not dialogue is the order of teaching" "Grace Apparatus for Perception" by RB Thieme jr [www.mustseethisone.com]
Understanding God's Government By Paul W. Syltie quote: "All Authority Inserted into Titus 2:15: The KJV reads: "These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee". In English, it sounds like Paul is telling Titus that he has "all authority" over the brethren-as a king or dictator might. The Greek words for "all authority" are pas and epitage. The latter word is used five other times in the New Testament (Rom 16:26, 1 Cor 7:6.24; 2Cor 8:8, 1Tim1:1, Tit1:3). In all these cases epitage is translated "commandement" and refers to a commandement of the Eternal. The incorrect use of "authority" makes it sound like Titus was the rebuking authority, not the Eternal commandments. Also, the Greek pas is translated "every" 117 out of 1.243 times. When pas is used with a word that trepresents a "class of items", pas refers to "every itme in the class." This verse would be much more consistently translated if it said "rebuke with every commandment". Titus was correct the brethren using every commandement of the Father and Christ. [books.google.com]
The Syltie quote is consistent with scripture and the authority hierarchy set forth by Jesus.
Epitage [bible.crosswalk.com]
Dr. Wall: [www.texaswalls.org]
Basic view. First, he has an unbalanced view of spiritual authority. Pastoral or elder leadership authority extends to the overseeing of the operation of church ministries, the maintenance of sound teaching in the local church and the protection of the believers' souls from false doctrine (I Pet. 5:2; Acts 20:28, 29; Heb. 13:17). It clearly involves leadership by example, not by lording over or "bullying" the flock (I Pet. 5:3; Heb. 13:7). Thieme has added to these clear biblical directions. He claims that he must be the final source of doctrine for all in his flock, and that the individual believer cannot study Scripture for himself. Not only does the Scripture not teach such a view of doctrinal learning, but it teaches the opposite. Spiritual growth, Paul says in Ephesians 4, involves two major ingredients that are contrary to the Thiemite doctrine: first, the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift (verse 12, katartismon) designed to prepare all believers (the saints) for doing the job of ministering and edifying; second, maturing takes place as all the members of the body minister the truth of God to one another in love (verses 15, 16), not just one select, gifted person.
Second, he confuses faith in biblical truth with a faith in a particular teacher (i.e. one's right pastor). At no time does Scripture exhort the believer to single out one particular teacher as his final doctrinal authority. On the contrary, there is precedence for diversity of teachers. At Antioch the thriving, missionary church was ministered to by five prophets and teachers (Acts 13: 1). Ephesus had both the personal and epistolary ministries of both Paul and John, and also had the ministry of Apollos and of the elders of Ephesus (Acts 18:24-28; 20:17-35). In 3 John, the apostle condemns Diotrophes for attempting to lord it over the flock, forcing division between his followers and other teachers in the body of Christ. Thieme's right pastor doctrine could very well be called the "Diotrophes doctrine."
I said once I'll say it again " YOU QUESTION THE PERFECT AUTHORITY OF JESUS, IF YOU DO NOT QUESTION THE CORRUPT AUTHORITY OF THIEME!
"
[forum.culteducation.com]
Truthtesty
Dr. Wall has stated that Thieme's false authority can legitamately be described as the Diotrophes false lording over authority.
Here is another example:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Something to consider for long-term members who may not have come across Lifton's writings. (The following text was recently posted in the LGAT forum):- Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality: 1. Control of communication 2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation 3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology 4. Obsessive demands for confession 5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless 6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought 7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine 8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
Another example I will show you: [forum.culteducation.com]
Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:
Dr. Lifton on Thought Reform (Harvard University)
MILIEU CONTROL
The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication
Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy
Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure
Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and psychologically--for one to leave
Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them"
Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)
[www.ex-cult.org]
Truthtesty
Here is another witness that says Thieme was a cult leader:
[forum.culteducation.com]
"I can tell you it is a cult because I went to one of his churches in my area for many months. The Pastor learned from him and uses his studies and doctrine. The one thing they teach over and over and over again in every bible study is that their way is the right way and if anyone comes to talk them about something different or against their teachings they are from Satan and they are misguided. They teach not to get mad at them, but encourage them to come to bible study as much as possible and someday they will learn the truth. When you talk to these people they are very reluctant to talk about anything spiritual. they only get their teaching from the pastor and they can not nor most of the time try to defend what they believe in scripture. They quote scripture but out of context. They teach that you need to get the people in and out quick because you don't want them to spend to much time with each other. They believe that you can sin and do whatever you want in the world as long as you come to bible class. They believe no one has a right to question anyone else about their actions. They believe the job of the pastor is to teach the Word only and not to get involved in what the people in his church are doing evening if they are sinning. They believe whatever you do outside the church doors is between you and God. There are many other things they teach and believe that go against the Word. The church I went to was Grace Bible Church. This pastor was kicked out of his first church by his elders and pastors in the 90's because his teachings started to go against what they believed was the truth. At that time they were having bible study groups and normal church functions of fellowship. which is where the people of the church started to discuss things without the Pastor and found his teachings to be wrong. He has corrected that error, because now the only place you can learn the Word is from Him and from the church no groups are allowed anymore. if anyone has any questions I would be happy to help or answer them. I have studied the Word of God for many years and in the original languages, and with The Holy Spirit's wisdom i could see right through the false doctrine. The Father kept my mind open and spiritual awake from the deception of this church. In His Service I pray this is a warning to anyone who is looking for a church "
prebound, there are many more examples these are just a few. So again you show up here and you say Thieme is not a cult, but a destructive church. How do you make a distinction that Thieme is not a cult, but just a destructive church?
Just because a murderer can shave, get a hair-cut, dress-up in a suit, and appear "innocent" in air conditioned courtroom, doesn't mean he's not a murderer he just "looks" less menacing. The onlooker's defenses are not as high as they should be.
Truthtesty
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2009 10:38AM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: September 23, 2009 11:55AM
To the Forum:
This person, Therese, makes one of the best responses (apparently spontaneous) to a thiemite, that I have ever seen. (I will remove the name of the thiemite and the thiemite's posting.)
Therese is referring to Thieme, Sodini, and clone Tetalestai:
9 Therese on Aug 19th, 2009 at 4:45 am This man was known at this church and sat under certain teachings at this church for 13 years - unless we believe that meeting together is nothing more than a religious exercise, then of course they must bear some responsibility. Where was discernment, where was power to heal this man's "issues", where is truth and the fear of a holy God when they teach that a mass murderer will be received into heaven? At the end of 13 years in a truly Christ-centred fellowship a person would be in a better state than at the beginning if things were right, instead of so much worse that he would commit a horrible crime that he never committed before going there. It looks very much to me that he was bearing the ultimate fruit of whatever was going on at this church.
10 ...(thiemite response omitted)
11 Therese on Aug 20th, 2009 at 3:54 am Hmmmm, the leadership are privy to doctrine and information that is different from what is fed to the sheep? That disturbs me. I read the first few paragraphs under "Right Man" and found that disturbed me too - unbiblical, fleshly, human thinking - and the use of fear directed particularly at the young and impressionable. It's not hard to see how people could become very mentally conflicted from sitting under this kind of teaching. "Coalescence of souls" What bible is that from? It's no more reassuring than "soul climax". "The closeness of honest love" Is that what the people talk about when they get together at this church? It sounds very sick to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some improper behaviour going on backstage. ...
12 Bene D on Aug 20th, 2009 at 4:00 am (thiemite name omitted) : R.B.Theime wrote Right Man? That goes beyond complimentarianism into misogyny and misandry.It goes beyond literalism. Thanks, I read it.You are correct - I didn't see "soul climax," I saw "coalescence".(lobe, operation Z and other obscurities)
13 Bene D on Aug 20th, 2009 at 4:16 am Therese: I don't know if it's even that. I'm not a theologian, but that was a bizarre read. I don't know if you'd see much different in JW, Mormon, Scientology or other sect literature. This is dispensationist fundamentalism, interpreted by a military authoritarian who is believed to have fudged some of his credentials. I am surprised this is supposedly passed off as orthodoxy, it is certainly cultural in the sense of being independent etho-centric interpretation. Don't blame you for not finishing it, reading that was not a healthy way to start the day.
14 Therese on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:14 am This exactly reminded me of Mormonism - I wouldn't be surprised if they don't start telling the people who they may or may not marry pretty soon at this church, if they're not already doing that well this has all been such an education for me anyhow, deception morphing into cultism. Even scarier when some are now praying for the death of their enemies! What will all this look like even a few years from now? May God give us strength
15 Therese on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:20 am the world inhabited by mind-controlled zombies, is that what this is all leading to? Seems like it to me.
16 Bene Diction on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:34 am The "Colonel", the hyper-graphologist teacher, R.B. Thiemes Jr. died a few days ago.The son has been running the group for some time. Some people believe Thiemites (or tapers as they call themselves) are a cult. I think given their cultural and social isolation and the authoritarniansm the group accepts, the case can be made there are some sociological cult characteristics. As for theology, yes he wandered into some serious wierdness, but maintained some core doctrine. Given there are some orthodox beliefs still held, I?m inclined to say sect.His loaded language also theologically isolates his followers. There is good discussion of his teaching and effects on adherants and walkaways at the Rick Ross forums and at a couple of blogs.
17 (thiemite response omitted)
18 Therese on Aug 21st, 2009 at 12:06 pm (thiemite name omitted),,, I don't doubt you are very sincere, and I would like to share a passage of scripture the Lord opened my eyes to that is a strong tower of spiritual safety when we obey it: "Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man against another." 1 Corinth. 4:6 We see that the context here is in preferring one minister over another. The word of God is to take precedence over any man/minister and what he may say. But fear not because the Holy Spirit himself opens the scriptures to us when we humbly allow Him and as we carry our cross. He truly has not left us as orphans
19 (thiemite standard childish response omitted)
20 Therese on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 12:31 pm Why do you keep mentioning this man's name? It's you I'm talking to here, not him. It doesn't matter who he is, and I know nothing about him except what I've seen here - I have no feeling toward this fellow at all, he could be Rumpelstiltskein for all it matters to me, but what he has written that I've seen here, which you take to be equal to God's word, is not scriptural. Period. It is a product of vain human imagination. I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again here - I've learned we must be careful to take the "whole counsel of God" on any matter. If God says in one place "that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight" and then elsewhere He says "Do not go beyond what is written".well then, which one do we want to ignore? I hope the answer is neither. I can testify of revelation the Lord has given me, but always it is revelation OF HIS WORD. Sometimes He gives me insight, but always He confirms it in His word, and if we are wise we will not stand upon anything until and unless He confirms it in His word. Lots of ideas/insights may come and go from our minds, but only what He has revealed in His word can be taken to be from the Lord. Your choice, you are free to choose a man if you want to, but me I choose Jesus, the Word made flesh. Don't you think it would be more sensible and safe to let the Author of the Book tell you what He means by what He has written, rather than a mere mortal with an active imagination and quite possibly other issues of the flesh? Believe me or not, but I can see you are in very dangerous territory brother.
21(thiemite response confirmed in "everybody hates my teacher - Thieme - and it's unfair because you haven't given him a chance to brainwash you yet" but not confirmed in the Word - omitted)
22 Therese on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 2:08 pm Sorry, ----- the first part of my first paragraph above sounds obnoxious, which I didn't mean. I was trying to make a point about having this conversation with you and not R.B. Thieme, so why not just talk about the issues that we each believe, and not he himself whom I neither hate nor love since I don?t even know him. It almost seemed as though you consider he speaks for you?
23 (thiemite dodging response omitted)
24 Therese on Aug 23rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm ----, I'm not sure if there's some confusion but in #24 I was trying to better express the obnoxious-sounding (to me anyway) first part of the first paragraph in my comment #22. And in the comment about the Mormons in #15, I was expressing that I discerned a similar cultish air between Mormon teaching and the Right Man Right Woman teaching of Thieme?s (not even similar teachings necessarily but similar in that they're both cultish). Anyhow, I realize nobody needs the Word-according-to-Therese anymore than they need the Word-according-to-Thieme. God bless and hope you take time apart to shut out the voices of men and read the Word for yourself, allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you, according to what is written: "But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things". John 14:26 "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is not counterfeit - just as it has taught you, remain in him." 1 John 2:26-27
25 cc on Sep 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm Goos stuff. I dug into this guy and his church. More shocked that he attended for 13 yrs and then the church intially tried to deny him. Shame on them. Kind of like Jesus beind denied in the end. Sodini ate up hook lime and sinker what they spoon fed. He mostlikely suffered from depression. His church may not have been big on meds. Then the church threw him. What kind of a church does that without giving counsel? When I became an adult I questioned my catholic faith and then stopped going due to a childs disability. No time. But I kept to the core beliefs but then I did some research into other faiths and changed my mind about going to another church. I also with age and wisdom realized why the catholic church does not push to study the bible. It can be translated into a persons mind so badly and give you nightmares...
[www.benedictionblogson.com]
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2009 12:19PM by Truthtesty.
This person, Therese, makes one of the best responses (apparently spontaneous) to a thiemite, that I have ever seen. (I will remove the name of the thiemite and the thiemite's posting.)
Therese is referring to Thieme, Sodini, and clone Tetalestai:
9 Therese on Aug 19th, 2009 at 4:45 am This man was known at this church and sat under certain teachings at this church for 13 years - unless we believe that meeting together is nothing more than a religious exercise, then of course they must bear some responsibility. Where was discernment, where was power to heal this man's "issues", where is truth and the fear of a holy God when they teach that a mass murderer will be received into heaven? At the end of 13 years in a truly Christ-centred fellowship a person would be in a better state than at the beginning if things were right, instead of so much worse that he would commit a horrible crime that he never committed before going there. It looks very much to me that he was bearing the ultimate fruit of whatever was going on at this church.
10 ...(thiemite response omitted)
11 Therese on Aug 20th, 2009 at 3:54 am Hmmmm, the leadership are privy to doctrine and information that is different from what is fed to the sheep? That disturbs me. I read the first few paragraphs under "Right Man" and found that disturbed me too - unbiblical, fleshly, human thinking - and the use of fear directed particularly at the young and impressionable. It's not hard to see how people could become very mentally conflicted from sitting under this kind of teaching. "Coalescence of souls" What bible is that from? It's no more reassuring than "soul climax". "The closeness of honest love" Is that what the people talk about when they get together at this church? It sounds very sick to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some improper behaviour going on backstage. ...
12 Bene D on Aug 20th, 2009 at 4:00 am (thiemite name omitted) : R.B.Theime wrote Right Man? That goes beyond complimentarianism into misogyny and misandry.It goes beyond literalism. Thanks, I read it.You are correct - I didn't see "soul climax," I saw "coalescence".(lobe, operation Z and other obscurities)
13 Bene D on Aug 20th, 2009 at 4:16 am Therese: I don't know if it's even that. I'm not a theologian, but that was a bizarre read. I don't know if you'd see much different in JW, Mormon, Scientology or other sect literature. This is dispensationist fundamentalism, interpreted by a military authoritarian who is believed to have fudged some of his credentials. I am surprised this is supposedly passed off as orthodoxy, it is certainly cultural in the sense of being independent etho-centric interpretation. Don't blame you for not finishing it, reading that was not a healthy way to start the day.
14 Therese on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:14 am This exactly reminded me of Mormonism - I wouldn't be surprised if they don't start telling the people who they may or may not marry pretty soon at this church, if they're not already doing that well this has all been such an education for me anyhow, deception morphing into cultism. Even scarier when some are now praying for the death of their enemies! What will all this look like even a few years from now? May God give us strength
15 Therese on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:20 am the world inhabited by mind-controlled zombies, is that what this is all leading to? Seems like it to me.
16 Bene Diction on Aug 20th, 2009 at 5:34 am The "Colonel", the hyper-graphologist teacher, R.B. Thiemes Jr. died a few days ago.The son has been running the group for some time. Some people believe Thiemites (or tapers as they call themselves) are a cult. I think given their cultural and social isolation and the authoritarniansm the group accepts, the case can be made there are some sociological cult characteristics. As for theology, yes he wandered into some serious wierdness, but maintained some core doctrine. Given there are some orthodox beliefs still held, I?m inclined to say sect.His loaded language also theologically isolates his followers. There is good discussion of his teaching and effects on adherants and walkaways at the Rick Ross forums and at a couple of blogs.
17 (thiemite response omitted)
18 Therese on Aug 21st, 2009 at 12:06 pm (thiemite name omitted),,, I don't doubt you are very sincere, and I would like to share a passage of scripture the Lord opened my eyes to that is a strong tower of spiritual safety when we obey it: "Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man against another." 1 Corinth. 4:6 We see that the context here is in preferring one minister over another. The word of God is to take precedence over any man/minister and what he may say. But fear not because the Holy Spirit himself opens the scriptures to us when we humbly allow Him and as we carry our cross. He truly has not left us as orphans
19 (thiemite standard childish response omitted)
20 Therese on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 12:31 pm Why do you keep mentioning this man's name? It's you I'm talking to here, not him. It doesn't matter who he is, and I know nothing about him except what I've seen here - I have no feeling toward this fellow at all, he could be Rumpelstiltskein for all it matters to me, but what he has written that I've seen here, which you take to be equal to God's word, is not scriptural. Period. It is a product of vain human imagination. I've mentioned it before, but I'll say it again here - I've learned we must be careful to take the "whole counsel of God" on any matter. If God says in one place "that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight" and then elsewhere He says "Do not go beyond what is written".well then, which one do we want to ignore? I hope the answer is neither. I can testify of revelation the Lord has given me, but always it is revelation OF HIS WORD. Sometimes He gives me insight, but always He confirms it in His word, and if we are wise we will not stand upon anything until and unless He confirms it in His word. Lots of ideas/insights may come and go from our minds, but only what He has revealed in His word can be taken to be from the Lord. Your choice, you are free to choose a man if you want to, but me I choose Jesus, the Word made flesh. Don't you think it would be more sensible and safe to let the Author of the Book tell you what He means by what He has written, rather than a mere mortal with an active imagination and quite possibly other issues of the flesh? Believe me or not, but I can see you are in very dangerous territory brother.
21(thiemite response confirmed in "everybody hates my teacher - Thieme - and it's unfair because you haven't given him a chance to brainwash you yet" but not confirmed in the Word - omitted)
22 Therese on Aug 22nd, 2009 at 2:08 pm Sorry, ----- the first part of my first paragraph above sounds obnoxious, which I didn't mean. I was trying to make a point about having this conversation with you and not R.B. Thieme, so why not just talk about the issues that we each believe, and not he himself whom I neither hate nor love since I don?t even know him. It almost seemed as though you consider he speaks for you?
23 (thiemite dodging response omitted)
24 Therese on Aug 23rd, 2009 at 12:24 pm ----, I'm not sure if there's some confusion but in #24 I was trying to better express the obnoxious-sounding (to me anyway) first part of the first paragraph in my comment #22. And in the comment about the Mormons in #15, I was expressing that I discerned a similar cultish air between Mormon teaching and the Right Man Right Woman teaching of Thieme?s (not even similar teachings necessarily but similar in that they're both cultish). Anyhow, I realize nobody needs the Word-according-to-Therese anymore than they need the Word-according-to-Thieme. God bless and hope you take time apart to shut out the voices of men and read the Word for yourself, allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you, according to what is written: "But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things". John 14:26 "I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is not counterfeit - just as it has taught you, remain in him." 1 John 2:26-27
25 cc on Sep 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm Goos stuff. I dug into this guy and his church. More shocked that he attended for 13 yrs and then the church intially tried to deny him. Shame on them. Kind of like Jesus beind denied in the end. Sodini ate up hook lime and sinker what they spoon fed. He mostlikely suffered from depression. His church may not have been big on meds. Then the church threw him. What kind of a church does that without giving counsel? When I became an adult I questioned my catholic faith and then stopped going due to a childs disability. No time. But I kept to the core beliefs but then I did some research into other faiths and changed my mind about going to another church. I also with age and wisdom realized why the catholic church does not push to study the bible. It can be translated into a persons mind so badly and give you nightmares...
[www.benedictionblogson.com]
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2009 12:19PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: September 23, 2009 09:19PM
1979
[books.google.com.au]
[books.google.com.au]
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: October 04, 2009 11:39AM
To the Forum:
Thieme's NEOCON political agenda DEMONIZED and EQUATED LIBERALS and FEMINISTS WITH SATAN'S PLAN, and attacked liberals and feminists (women's liberation movement) TIME and countless TIME again. No thiemite can argue against THAT, without exposing their bald face lies.
Sodini "practiced" and FOCUSED with R. B. Thieme jr's NEOCON "Integrity of God", the day before the mass murder/suicide.
Thiemite Sodini quote "... I hate feminists!" Sodini yelled "... I hate feminists!" right before gunning down and killing 3 innocent women in COLD BLOOD and wounding 9 other women, then blowing his own brains out.
You happy NEOCONS? Wait I forgot you have no human conscience.
Sodini murdered women who he considered were liberal feminists and equated them with satan's INTENT, with not one shred of evidence! Merely a sick false arrogant narcisisitic inference with a pathetic attempt to support a sick ego with no evidence, and a FRUSTRATED FAILED and FALSE "RIGHT MAN RIGHT WOMAN" indoctrination. And 3 women lost their lives.
What best explains this? 13 years of "inculcation"/indoctrination of Thieme/(Knapp a Thieme copy cat) re-education.
I consistently warned of the dangers of Thieme's cult and it's potential for violence to the lives of innocent people and the emotional problems that develop with unwittingly dedicated thiemites who submit to Thieme's false authority and these same thiemites who do not distinguish between the perfect authority of G-d and the false corrupt authority of Thieme/(Knapp-if he copies right pastor):
What kept Sodini at Tetelestai?
Sodini quote: " In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his (Pastor Rick Knapp's) crap did the most damage."
[a.abcnews.com]
Hello? Fear and guilt.
Tetelestai Church in Pittsburgh, PA - "Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!", as pastor Rick Knapp would proclaim. Holy ----, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him. Call him at [phone number]. If no answer there, he should still live at [address]. In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his crap did the most damage. Their web site: [www.tetelestai.org] "
[a.abcnews.com]
Truthtesty: Thieme's cult is not just a destructive church as "half-ministers" try to imply,, no it is a full blown destructive cult - subtle- oh so subtle but a deadly cult just the same. Slow? Yes pressure cooker slow, but a deadly cult just the same.
And now more people are dead. Something that I tried to prevent. Something that I tried to warn the world about. Something that I have suffered.
I warned about emotional problems being caused by Thieme:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Now I have warned the world about the potential for violence that thiemites are capable of and the emotional problems that occur from Thieme's teachings:
May 11, 2008:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Dr. Enroth - "I know of groups that nobody's heard of that have the potential for violence," he said. "Who heard of Jim Jones before Jonestown? Who heard of Koresh before Waco? There are lots of groups out there who have never been written up who have the potential to become violent."
Truthtesty: Do you think the people of Jonestown were seeking a lie? [www.google.com] No they thought they had God's truth in thier lives, but? they were misled.
Do you think the "Branch Davidians were seeking a lie? [www.google.com] No they thought they had God's truth in thier lives, but? they were misled.
Dr. Wall - "Thieme was called to the pastorate in May, 1950. His first Sunday may have been a preview of what was to come. Thieme met with the Board of Deacons at the close of his first morning service and demanded their immediate resignation with the threat of his resignation if his demand was not met. The dumbfounded deacons acceded to Thieme's demand, and the pastor became the dominant leader who brooked no challenge to his authority from that time forward."
Dr. Enroth - A central theme of this book ("Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist cult") is that spiritual abuse can take place in the context of doctrinally sound, bible preaching, fundamental, conservative christianity. All that is needed for abuse is a pastor accountable to no one and therefore beyond confrontation.
In Your Adversary the Devil(p51), J, Dwight Pentecost states, "If Satan is to hold the minds and hearts of men captive to his lie, it is necessary for him to blind men to the truth as it is revealed in the Word of God
More quotes(referencing Helmut Thielicke) from Dr. Enroth's book "Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist cult", that you might find interesting.
(1st quote) "False teachers not only imitate the real ministers of Christ, but regularly quote Scripture and distort the Bible for their own purposes. "The great seducer always uses the same devices: he seems to take God at his word, and yet he twists the meaning of this word almost before it has left God's mouth" (Thielicke, Between God and Satan, p. 55).
(2nd quote)What the devil means by God and the Son of God is not God at all, but a puppet whom the devil to suit his own purposes, can cause to jump and dance and make bread and come down from his cross. This God is not Lord of the devil, but his slave. The devil uses him to turn to his own account the great things of life and to sanction them with his stolen name.... The devil does this under the cover of biblical and christian phrases, and he can turn Christianity into a myth and an opiate the same way.
(3rd quote)"The devil is a firm believer in God: That is why his disguise is so dangerous. For this reason is he so dangerous a seducer, a "teacher of error" in the church, because there his principle of taking his stand on the fact of God, on the basis of positive belief, is seen at it's most effective. We may well say that the most diabolical thing about the devil, is that he takes this stand. That is why he is accounted a liar from the beginning. That is why he is called the "ape" of God. That is why we can mistake him for God."
(4th quote)"...As we have stated, a key to understandIng the success of extremists cults is the fact of thier ability to destroy the will to be self-determining, In another book, Helmut ThIelicke discusses this subversion of the will by the adversary(devil) who is also fond of using the instrument of propaganda, that is non-objective suggestion for the purpose of "formimg the will". The very phrase forming the will is characteristic. For it indicates that propaganda does address itself to a man as a bearer of a will, but nevertheless influences this will in such a secret and insinuating way that it is almost unconsciously changed and then it accepts and carries out secretly imposed and suggested decisions as if they were its own.(Man in God's World p.185)
(5th quote)PERSONS ACTIVE in the cults understandably do not perceive themselves as engaging in evil, nor do they see themselves as victims of deception. Their organizations and their leaders are upheld as paragons of truth, righteousness, and good works. But as Thielicke explains, "Through its diabolical obfuscating maneuvers the demonic power will always see to it that a person never feels that he is an enemy of God. . . but rather that he thinks he is acting in the name of God" (Ibid., p. 190).
The Bible teaches that spiritual counterfeits practice a "form of godliness" and that they do not always outwardly appear to be wrong. They usually, in fact, are very appealing. Scripture describes Satan as assuming the disguise of an "angel of light": "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no- wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve" ....
Truthtesty[/quote]
"Through its diabolical obfuscating maneuvers the demonic power will always see to it that a person never feels that he is an enemy of God. . . but rather that he thinks he is acting in the name of God"
There is a reason G-d considers a human lie a lie, therefore it is obvious human truth is important.
Truthtesty
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2009 12:05PM by Truthtesty.
Thieme's NEOCON political agenda DEMONIZED and EQUATED LIBERALS and FEMINISTS WITH SATAN'S PLAN, and attacked liberals and feminists (women's liberation movement) TIME and countless TIME again. No thiemite can argue against THAT, without exposing their bald face lies.
Sodini "practiced" and FOCUSED with R. B. Thieme jr's NEOCON "Integrity of God", the day before the mass murder/suicide.
Thiemite Sodini quote "... I hate feminists!" Sodini yelled "... I hate feminists!" right before gunning down and killing 3 innocent women in COLD BLOOD and wounding 9 other women, then blowing his own brains out.
You happy NEOCONS? Wait I forgot you have no human conscience.
Sodini murdered women who he considered were liberal feminists and equated them with satan's INTENT, with not one shred of evidence! Merely a sick false arrogant narcisisitic inference with a pathetic attempt to support a sick ego with no evidence, and a FRUSTRATED FAILED and FALSE "RIGHT MAN RIGHT WOMAN" indoctrination. And 3 women lost their lives.
What best explains this? 13 years of "inculcation"/indoctrination of Thieme/(Knapp a Thieme copy cat) re-education.
I consistently warned of the dangers of Thieme's cult and it's potential for violence to the lives of innocent people and the emotional problems that develop with unwittingly dedicated thiemites who submit to Thieme's false authority and these same thiemites who do not distinguish between the perfect authority of G-d and the false corrupt authority of Thieme/(Knapp-if he copies right pastor):
Quote
Truthtesty
Truthtesty: Thieme's "TRIPLE COMPOUND DISCIPLINE" is FALSE because Thieme is referring to Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.
This is one of the false fear tactics of the Thieme temple. Cults do not like to be exposed it is no wonder Thieme says "Every believer should develop a conscious habit of keeping his mouth shut..." Christian Suffering by R. B. Thieme jr.
Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.
But still? What am I doing? One 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God." (not Thieme) Two 1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
The Thieme cult definitely tried to squeeze Matthew 7:2 into the "Age of Grace" or "Church Age", but that's a "Kingdom" Law.
This is another proof for "test all things" and performing your own personal study.
Truthtesty
Matthew 7:2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." This is a KINGDOM LAW not a GRACE OR CHURCH AGE LAW.
Thieme quote: We must approach the Word of God with utmost care. Never are we to indiscriminately lift a phrase here and a verse there and apply them to suit our fancy. We must always analyze the Scripture in the light of certain principles of interpretation The Integrity of God by RB Thieme jr.
Truthtesty: IT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE CHURCH AGE BELIEVER OF THIS CHURCH AGE DISPENSATION.
Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.
THIEME KNEW THAT.
Thieme quote: Dispensational Theology holds the key to understanding the Scriptures in their proper perspective. Dispensationalism clarifies the difference between Israel and the Church and defines the Christian’s modus operandi and his relationships. Anti-Semitism by R.B. Thieme, Jr.
THIEME KNEW THAT!
Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 4, Page 223 (8) Warning Against Judgment of Others. This kingdom law is unyielding (Matt. 7:1–6): “Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.” One under grace has passed beyond all judgment, by virtue of his acceptance in Christ who died for him (John 5:24). He may be chastened by his Father, which is a form of judgment (1 Cor. 11:27–32); but such judgment is never said to be the return of his sin back upon his own head, as is prescribed in this portion of the kingdom teaching.
THEREFORE IT IS A DELIBERATE, HYPOCRITICAL, AND INTENTIONAL FALSIFICATION OF THE SCRIPTURE FOR THIEME'S CULT.
Thieme started using his false teaching on "Triple Compound Discipline" at least as of the early 1970's. As far as I know Thieme never recanted his false teaching on "Triple Compound Discipline". And as we all can clearly see pss is still using it.
This is not an improvement on Dr. Chafer's categorical teachings of dispensational Systematic Theology. This is a retardation from Dr. Chafer. Thieme is intentionally and unecessarily intimidating unwitting christians, through the use of intentional misinterpretations. Thieme is using and inducing unnecessary fear into unwitting chrisitans, through the use of intentional misinterpretations. Thereby misrepresenting the Word of God and handling the Word of God deceitfully.
Thieme cult doctrine.
As we have seen before Thieme's teachings produce unecessary repression of guilt in unwitting christians.
Dr. Wall Unless the full ramifications of true agreement about (or acknowledgement of) sins are taught, there can be practical abuses of the doctrine of confession. Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can possible produce in the carnal mind a "license mentality."15 In some cases it can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin16 and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship. [www.texaswalls.org]
Cults use fear and guilt to program their members to believe that their lives are worthless outside of the group. It is hard to imagine the pain these buried psychic land mines cause when the person manages to leave. Cult experiences and indoctrination have to be worked through during an essential soul-searching recovery period, which usually takes months and sometimes years. by Steven Hassan, M.Ed., L.M.H.C., N.C.C.
Hassan authored "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and "Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves"
[www.icsahome.com]
Truthtesty
What kept Sodini at Tetelestai?
Sodini quote: " In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his (Pastor Rick Knapp's) crap did the most damage."
[a.abcnews.com]
Hello? Fear and guilt.
Tetelestai Church in Pittsburgh, PA - "Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!", as pastor Rick Knapp would proclaim. Holy ----, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. Ask him. Call him at [phone number]. If no answer there, he should still live at [address]. In any case, guilt and fear kept me there 13 long years until Nov 2006. I think his crap did the most damage. Their web site: [www.tetelestai.org] "
[a.abcnews.com]
Truthtesty: Thieme's cult is not just a destructive church as "half-ministers" try to imply,, no it is a full blown destructive cult - subtle- oh so subtle but a deadly cult just the same. Slow? Yes pressure cooker slow, but a deadly cult just the same.
And now more people are dead. Something that I tried to prevent. Something that I tried to warn the world about. Something that I have suffered.
I warned about emotional problems being caused by Thieme:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Now I have warned the world about the potential for violence that thiemites are capable of and the emotional problems that occur from Thieme's teachings:
May 11, 2008:
[forum.culteducation.com]
Dr. Enroth - "I know of groups that nobody's heard of that have the potential for violence," he said. "Who heard of Jim Jones before Jonestown? Who heard of Koresh before Waco? There are lots of groups out there who have never been written up who have the potential to become violent."
Truthtesty: Do you think the people of Jonestown were seeking a lie? [www.google.com] No they thought they had God's truth in thier lives, but? they were misled.
Do you think the "Branch Davidians were seeking a lie? [www.google.com] No they thought they had God's truth in thier lives, but? they were misled.
Dr. Wall - "Thieme was called to the pastorate in May, 1950. His first Sunday may have been a preview of what was to come. Thieme met with the Board of Deacons at the close of his first morning service and demanded their immediate resignation with the threat of his resignation if his demand was not met. The dumbfounded deacons acceded to Thieme's demand, and the pastor became the dominant leader who brooked no challenge to his authority from that time forward."
Dr. Enroth - A central theme of this book ("Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist cult") is that spiritual abuse can take place in the context of doctrinally sound, bible preaching, fundamental, conservative christianity. All that is needed for abuse is a pastor accountable to no one and therefore beyond confrontation.
In Your Adversary the Devil(p51), J, Dwight Pentecost states, "If Satan is to hold the minds and hearts of men captive to his lie, it is necessary for him to blind men to the truth as it is revealed in the Word of God
More quotes(referencing Helmut Thielicke) from Dr. Enroth's book "Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist cult", that you might find interesting.
(1st quote) "False teachers not only imitate the real ministers of Christ, but regularly quote Scripture and distort the Bible for their own purposes. "The great seducer always uses the same devices: he seems to take God at his word, and yet he twists the meaning of this word almost before it has left God's mouth" (Thielicke, Between God and Satan, p. 55).
(2nd quote)What the devil means by God and the Son of God is not God at all, but a puppet whom the devil to suit his own purposes, can cause to jump and dance and make bread and come down from his cross. This God is not Lord of the devil, but his slave. The devil uses him to turn to his own account the great things of life and to sanction them with his stolen name.... The devil does this under the cover of biblical and christian phrases, and he can turn Christianity into a myth and an opiate the same way.
(3rd quote)"The devil is a firm believer in God: That is why his disguise is so dangerous. For this reason is he so dangerous a seducer, a "teacher of error" in the church, because there his principle of taking his stand on the fact of God, on the basis of positive belief, is seen at it's most effective. We may well say that the most diabolical thing about the devil, is that he takes this stand. That is why he is accounted a liar from the beginning. That is why he is called the "ape" of God. That is why we can mistake him for God."
(4th quote)"...As we have stated, a key to understandIng the success of extremists cults is the fact of thier ability to destroy the will to be self-determining, In another book, Helmut ThIelicke discusses this subversion of the will by the adversary(devil) who is also fond of using the instrument of propaganda, that is non-objective suggestion for the purpose of "formimg the will". The very phrase forming the will is characteristic. For it indicates that propaganda does address itself to a man as a bearer of a will, but nevertheless influences this will in such a secret and insinuating way that it is almost unconsciously changed and then it accepts and carries out secretly imposed and suggested decisions as if they were its own.(Man in God's World p.185)
(5th quote)PERSONS ACTIVE in the cults understandably do not perceive themselves as engaging in evil, nor do they see themselves as victims of deception. Their organizations and their leaders are upheld as paragons of truth, righteousness, and good works. But as Thielicke explains, "Through its diabolical obfuscating maneuvers the demonic power will always see to it that a person never feels that he is an enemy of God. . . but rather that he thinks he is acting in the name of God" (Ibid., p. 190).
The Bible teaches that spiritual counterfeits practice a "form of godliness" and that they do not always outwardly appear to be wrong. They usually, in fact, are very appealing. Scripture describes Satan as assuming the disguise of an "angel of light": "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no- wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve" ....
Truthtesty[/quote]
"Through its diabolical obfuscating maneuvers the demonic power will always see to it that a person never feels that he is an enemy of God. . . but rather that he thinks he is acting in the name of God"
There is a reason G-d considers a human lie a lie, therefore it is obvious human truth is important.
Truthtesty
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2009 12:05PM by Truthtesty.
Re: R.B. Thieme Jr., Berachah Church Houston, Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
sistersoap
()
Date: October 04, 2009 12:03PM
Well I see the forum is FINALLY back up. Or at least AVAILABLE. I have not been able to reach it for at least two weeks. Have others had trouble also? I kept getting results that said CANNOT FIND THIS PAGE ON THIS SERVER.
Good to be back.
Sistersoap
Good to be back.
Sistersoap
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