Truthtesty,

My use of Quaker was in response to you saying in a post "How would they know about it?" And, figured perhaps that the footnotes regarding illumination provoked this question...as Quakers are known for practicing this literally. Perhaps a wrong a assumption on my part. I have no major problem with Quakers as they are generally known for their passivity, their literal belief in the Bible, which is where passivity becomes an issue for some in their reading or interpretation of the Bible. Gathering together to quietly reflect and let the Holy Spirit "speak" in patient contemplation for illumination....

It's a nice alternative to brow beating however some who matriculated through the faith found the passivity and alienation, very frustrating, turning into not what I would describe as Quakerish, like Nixon for example.

Let's see, what else do I know...The USA's original law code was Quaker in origin.

And do know, way back yonder their were Quakers in my family. But other than historical descriptions and some current events regarding religious groups that are exclusive and very private, including Quakers have caused friction regarding members who commit crimes that are in conflict with current legal code and not revealing who they are to the frustrations of victims.

In visiting communities originally founded by Quakers I found no conflict regarding Quakers though I can't say those that presently lived there were Quakers as I would not be told anyways. Nice place to do yoga.

I will let someone from the past who was a Quaker give a definition. Herbert Hoover was a Quaker and this was his description:

"The religious characteristics of the faith were literal belief in the Bible, great tolerance, and a conviction that spiritual inspiration sprang from the "inward light" in each individual. Thus, being extreme religious individualists, they have no paid "ministers" and no elaborate ecclesiastical organization, "the meeting" being only roughly grouped under "quarterly" or "yearly meetings" for spiritual guidance. The reflex of religious individualism is necessarily also economic individualism. The Friends have always held strongly to education, thrift, and individual enterprise. In consequence of plain living and hard work poverty has never been their lot. So far as I know, no member has ever been in jail or on public relief. This is largely because they take care of each other. Also it may be because if members evidence failings of loose living, their elders visit them in time to remedy their weakness or else expel them from the meeting."

'thereporter'

Orange and Truthtesty,


Replying to Truthtesty's request regarding where I drew parallels to Theime and Gnosticism in the NASB version, I need to correct number 2 as I left something out in the second posting of this diatribe.

And, Truthtesty send me your commentary on the scriptures I sight from 1 John because I don't have your version. I like to see what the transmission is cherry picking from...I used the NIV before. And, observing people at Berachah they used all types of versions. Theime III would quote from the King James at times.

2. Salvation is the escape from the body ("Overcoming Sin Nature of our physical bodies" as the Colonel harped constantly and even wrote a hymn about it)

Correction:

2. Salvation is the escape from the body achieved by not by faith in Christ but by special knowledge (the Greek word for "knowlege" gnosis, hence Gnosticism).[/b]

It is number 2 in my original post the reason I say "EPINOSIS sound familiar Theimeites!?"

Like I said, this heresy as I am not a Theologian and or familiar with all Cult or heretical breaking offs it is not a direct mirror to Theime's but later more intricately developed systems were developed in second and third centuries...and perhaps beyond is my question, assertion, and found Theime's system to be close enough for me as heresy. Though I did not need to find this to know this was a Destructive Church with some major issues. But, here's the abbreviated parallels.

1. The Colonel's pseudoscience was a parallel because of his dualistic belief of total separation from God as humans were spiritually dead with the evil inherited sin nature of Adam. His premise in The Integrity of God and throughout all teaching and tapes. "We must recognize that the sin nature is not endemic to the soul but resides instead in the cell structure of the human body." - Integrity of God?

2. Salvation an escape from the body, the spiritually dead and evil inherited sin nature body, through Salvation from Christ and "epinosis" of doctrine. - Integrity of God?

3. Christ's true humanity was denied in two ways at this time that does not apply to Theime's system. Though, Christ's true humanity as has been argued and analyzed by myself, and many others in this forum, as something Theime failed to focus on at large. Faith in Christ is bigger than Salvation through Christ.

4. Since the body was considered evil, spiritually dead matter and treated harshly "ascetic". I drew parallels to his method, framework, harsh, no emotion, and militaristic focus. Even though starting with his premise he resolved this dualism and seperation from God through Salvation in Christ, he continued as if the body was still spiritually dead matter primarily focusing on "epinosis" of doctrine.

5. Pardoxically, this dualism also led to licentiousness and breaking of God's law and no moral consequence. The parallel I draw is that his premise of dualism, total seperation of God from the spiritually dead with the inherited sin nature of Adam in our cell structure, necessitated Salvation from Christ as a bridge to Perfection, and therefore by Grace alone we were saved. Righteousness or works were moot as spiritually dead and seperated anyways. The Colonel had a habit of associating righteousness and good plus post-salvation righteousness and good, or embodying the Bible's message especially Christ's message as:

"Perhaps you are beginning to see that what truly impresses God and what you may have assumed impresses Him are two different things. Imperfect, sinful man has nothing to offer God that is worthy of His love. Even after salvation, we cannot earn divine approbation or blessing. The only things we have that please God are what God Himself has given us, first at the moment of salvation and subsequently through the filling of the Spirit and intake of doctrine." - Integrity of God?

My commentary interlude:

EPINOSIS OF DOCTRINE ANYONE??? God was not pleased whatsoever with what he created because he made a huge mistake. So why do anything regarding the laws of God, righteousness, good, or Christ-like because what impresses God is God as He is Perfect Righteousness. And He is not even impressed with Himself really at this point. Because even after God Man comes down to Earth and does all those good and Perfect Righteousness acts, as the vanguard of humility, good, forgiveness, and tolerance...... The Colonel's definition of Perfect Righteousness is not Perfect Righteousness.

God is only pleased with God, Not pleased with His creation, AND YET not pleased with Himself, and therefore His sole purpose is to die.

He's got God taking a nose dive off a skyscraper based on his formula which Necessitates this... Rather, than Salvation based on what is in the scriptures as a gift, sacrifice, to save mankind. And, he has humans swallowing all the pills in their medicine cabinet, self-destruction, or licentiousness, a bonafide license to really do some bad stuff.

Sooner or later you must learn two things, so you might as well be prepared for the shock. You have to learn first of all, that God is not impressed with you. He is not pleased with your self-righteousness, your personality, your talent, all the human good deeds you perform. He is not excited even a little about what you were, are, or plan to become. And that is the second thing: Not only is He unimpressed with you now, but He will never be impressed with you. It is an absolute impossibility for you to make any kind of positive impression on God. You and I have no ability to attract His love. We lack the talent, brains, the personality, and especially the righteousness; not even our very best can make the grade. - Integrity of God?

Made in God's image, God did not like His image. This is probably why Theimeite's have issues with emulating Christ's humanity or feeling God's love. Though not perfect our human talents, personality, plan, potential...Our human make-up is of no consequence to our Creator.

The Colonel's dogma goes on and I understand the complexities of it....unfortunately. After, the three prong God, Perfect Righteousness (which does not include a lot of righteous behavior), Justice as the Point of Contact for Humans, and Love the Motivation....This arrangement is based on his premise.

thereporter

Quote
truthseek
Intresting post Truthseeker. Where do you live, if you don't mind saying?

Truthtesty

Truthseek says:

I prefer not to say where I live on the forum because I have a family member who idolizes Bob Thieme. I am pretty sure that if they saw this forum and identified me from my postings it would be the end of my relationship with them.

The involvement of my family in this church has been the source of a great deal of pain for me. In an earlier posting I mentioned that I spent every night of my life from about 5 years of age to a young woman in this church. My parents also copied Thieme's personality and teaching in their parenting methods. The effect of having Thieme's ideas interwoven into our personalities as we grew up was absolutely devastating to my sibling and myself. It practically destroyed us. Because of some good luck, a great deal of love and loyalty from my partner, and my own hard work I am healthy and happy today but my sibling is still suffering from all this. I grew up learning from Thieme to be intolerant, judgemental, mistrustful of others, unforgiving, and cold. As a child I perpetually had a sick, depressed, frightened feeling. As an adult I discovered the feeling was anger, mistrust and hatred towards other people which I also learned from Thieme's own attitude towards people. As a child I learned from what Thieme did not from what he said. Thieme said he was loving and tolerant but he behaved with intolerance and judgementalism.

Eventually one of my parents committed suicide. This was not caused by their involvement with Berachah. My parent was badly abused as a child and never recovered. However, I could also see the effects of Berachah on my parent. They became more and more intolerant, judgemental, mistrustful of others as they became more involved with the church. This attitude that Thiemites have of intolerance towards anyone not involved in Berachah is very damaging. It leads to isolation, depression, anxiety, and paranoia. If someone starts at Berachah with a damaged personality or if they are forced to go from a small child they can develop serious emotional problems as a result of the barage of negativity coming from the pulpit.

Also, Bob Thieme ridiculed expression of emotion. My parents copied this attitude in their parenting. I was an adult before I recognized that part of the awful feeling I had all of the time was anger. I was unable to identify my own emotions and therefore had no control over my own emotions. This led to all kinds of interpersonal problems as well as an inability control my moods. This was absolute hell. The attitude of intolerance and lack of forgiveness and judgementalism taught by Thieme also resulted in my entire family fighting and eventually being estranged from one another. This is only part of the damage done to myself and my family by my association with Berachah.

I can only hope that telling my story will help just one person who has been damaged by Berachah.

Truthseek

HI truthseek,
Thanks for your eloquent testimony. I am sure all here can understand your reluctance to reveal your whereabouts. I am glad you still have a relationship with those family members still bouncing around the Thiemepark. You have a direct experience which is typical of those harmed by Thieme's teachings.

Sistersoap

Quote
thereporter
Sistersoap,

-od is a deference paid to Our Creator. It is a practice that many employ which maintains a humility regarding -od by not writing God. As many treat God with such casualness as to disrespect a personal practice which honors Him in spirit. "The fear (respect) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy One...

I wear a dancer charm, stretched holding the Star of David like a tambourine and rub it at times as it helps me instantly recall Exodus 15:20, 1 Samuel 18:6, II Samuel 6:14, Psalm 149:3, Psalm 150:4, and Jeremiah 31:4 & 13...Not every word per say but Praise, Dance, and Worship after overcoming obstacles as His wind is at my back. I guess I have lost it because it is a personal ritual or practice based on a promise from God himself and His promise revealed daily. As God does not welch on His promises...

I claim no "specialness" at doing so, to even mutter that, is to be treated the very opposite and have never said it. It is usually what others label in order to do the opposite and beyond the opposite. After all wasn't it jealousy that killed Christ? And God Man having the power to raze the entire lot of Roman Soldiers, Pharisees and Politicos, a mob of jealous imperfection, endured the ultimate travesty of injustice so that no man would ever need endure a Crucifixion. Which, is the ultimate rejection of God. His last words, "It is done." Aramaic translation, "It is Perfect." And, what Christians too often become focused on, stone drunk on the violent Crucifixion rather, than His Resurrection. After all, if that did not happen, NO CHRISTIANITY. It is the Core of the FAITH.

Truthtesty, please correct me if I have overstepped my place. I just find it offensive myself to accuse someone they have "lost it" if indeed this was slurred regarding, writing -od.

"Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another." Romans Ch. 14 vrs 13-19

"The faith you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." Romans Ch. 14 vs 22

I can't remember who said it or where I read it but "The future of Christianity is far too fragile to be left in the hands of Christians---especially pros."

thereporter

thanks for your post. I thought it was aomething of an affectation by Testy to use a couple of variations of "-od" and " and "-od." But I am totally respectful of Jewish sensibilities in this regard, and when I correspond with practicing Jews, I use the form they typically use, namely ""G-d."

If Testy or anyone else on this forum wishes me to use this form with them I will gladly respond with respect. I did not think Testy was Jewish or that the Rick Ross forum asked us to use such a form. Having been free to use the normal English spelling for Deity I could not understand Testy's change in usage. I won't be asking him any questions about it since he seems to get very mad at me when I do. No need for me to notice this peculiarity or to remark upon it.

Sistersoap

To thereporter:

thereporter's renactment of a Thieme inculcating thiemites:
(Thieme)"Okay you don't have it do you!!!? Epinosis of doctrine enters the left lobe of the brain where it? You don't get it do you!!!!!? You have to be filled with the Holy Spirit and then daily intake of doctrine. You see, epinosis of doctrine enters the left lobe of the brain where it becomes resident in the right lobe? You don't get it do you!!!??? You have so much Scar Tissue On The Soul (big pause for effect) l the Holy Spirit can not enter. Rebound! First you have to metabolize doctrine. Now, the greek transitive verb the Apostle Paul is referring to in Corinthians 13: 1.456789 for 6 days looks like this." This repetition is in every lesson for the most part..

Truthtesty: Excellent description. I laughed for quite a while reading this.

It escapes me now because, I am on the road(using blackberry), I don't have access to all my stored info, but when I had my MSN website(microsoft removed all websites) a young lady remarked about Lifton's "milieu control" description and how she felt it was accurate as to what Thieme tried to do INTERNALLY IN PLACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. So I see this similar description in what you have described:

thereporter Thieme renactment quote :"...You have so much Scar Tissue On The Soul (big pause for effect) l the Holy Spirit can not enter. Rebound!"
Truthtesty: One of my previous posts:

To the Forum: Dr. Lifton on Thought Reform (Harvard University)

MILIEU CONTROL The most basic feature is the control of human communication within an environment If the control is extremely intense, it becomes internalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication Control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes (information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy Groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure Often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult-- both physically and psychologically--for one to leave Sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's "us against them" Closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality) [forum.culteducation.com]

Looking back temporarily, I see the thiemites mind was Thieme's possesion, playground and sand box. And? Thieme did not like letting others play with his toys.

Lol

Enjoyed the post!

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2009 09:57AM by Truthtesty.

thereporter,

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Ron Henzel wrote a couple of paragraphs on early Gnosticism and its parallels today:-
[www.geocities.com]
(perform a text search for "Gnostic")

Now Sistersoap,

I have seen variations in the gadget age. Maybe he's Jewish. Maybe he is a Messianic Jew who does it a little different to distinguish. Maybe he is a budding existentialist with healthy pagan influences. Maybe he is BBing and doesn't want to hit Shift to Capitalize the G so "-od". Maybe he is a Christian who purposely takes the G out of God when discussing Theime's conception as "od". "- (cont.) with od" Destructive Church leaders. Who knows? Maybe ask him first so he is not so Testy.

thereporter

To the Forum:


I have posted RL Hymer on the Blood of Christ before. Here again I will post it because it parallels the discussion on Thieme's possible gnostic views.

Quote" Was it his teacher, Colonel Thieme? No! No! It was Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of the Christian Science cult! (cf. Mary Baker Eddy, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, 1910, p. 330). Mrs. Eddy was a neo-gnostic who believed that "Jesus, as material manhood, was not Christ" (Miscellaneous Writings, p. 84). But our text corrects her error. The Lord's Supper shows that Jesus has a real Body. When we eat the bread we are reminded that His real Body actually died on the Cross. It was not a "Christ-Spirit" that died on the Cross. And it was the real flesh and bone Jesus that rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven (cf. Luke 24:39; Acts 1:10-11). "

[www.rlhymersjr.com]

Looks MB Eddy needs to be researched.

Truthtesty

Truthtesy,

Thank you as I have much to sift through and appreciate the re-post.

To The Forum:

I will be continuing commentary but it will surround current events regarding Sodoni and Interest Groups that are asking, even pleading, for information regarding Theime's influence on Sodoni's mindset. The interest groups are women of course and Sodoni's racist attacks regarding Obama.

You will understand in my commentary upon the evening when Obama won the Presidency regarding Theime III prayer and what Theimites starting attacking me about in "Obamination" type of pros what I was responding to...What was coming from the directly correlates with the barrage of vigilance.

This forum has discussed the female issues regarding Sodoni's attacks but interest groups are also very concerned about the politics coming out of Berachah/Theime Jr. regarding racism and musings about Obama.

All for now and have a blessed day.

'thereporter'

Quote
orangeperuviscacha
thereporter,

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

Ron Henzel wrote a couple of paragraphs on early Gnosticism and its parallels today:-
[www.geocities.com]
(perform a text search for "Gnostic")

Hello Orange,
Thanks for this useful website on SPIRITUAL ABUSE. I was surprised to see the background on the home page looking like wallpaper covered in what appeared to be marijuana leaves! Oops!
But there is good information there. I wonder of the author was a Thiemer?

Regards,
Sistersoap