Quote
Truthtesty
To rr moderator and Forum:

One of us is lying and calling the other one a liar. So? Sister answer the false allegation you made an false attack on me with. Tell us how your false allegation is true. What led you to believe (along with your supposed non-troll buddy Zeebrook who also said that I was "less than honest" about this also, so that is another person attacking me and calling me a liar). So go ahead sister tell us what led you to believe this statement: sistersoap quote August 22, 2009 12:17PM
"Truthtesty Anyone can get Dr. Wall's dissertation FOR FREE. You did not obtain it at any cost and pass it on to us freely, as you said. QUOTING TESTY: " I freely presented Dr. Wall's entire dissertation to this forum free of charge time after time. Sistersoap" so go ahead and tell us the truth what led you to say this sister. Tell the exact truth or apologize.

To rrmoderator: this is important because sister has called into question me telling the truth. As you know my name is Truthtesty. So hopefully you will allow sister to answer. Sister has complely flipped this off her false allegation attacks on me and reversed this as if I am the one abusing her. Not so.

Truthtesty

Testy did you not read the moderator's request to leave this topic alone? If you must you can PM me.

But I don't think it is going to be profitable to pursue this.

I think you have lost it.

May -od help you. Or is that G-d?

Sistersoap

To Rr moderator:

May sister have permission to answer this: "tell us what led you to believe this statement: sistersoap quote August 22, 2009 12:17PM "Truthtesty Anyone can get Dr. Wall's dissertation FOR FREE. You did not obtain it at any cost and pass it on to us freely, as you said. QUOTING TESTY: " I freely presented Dr. Wall's entire dissertation to this forum free of charge time after time. Sistersoap" so go ahead and tell us the exact truth of what led you to believe your statement or apologize.

Sister appears to be extremly willing to tell us the truth, but she feels restricted because of the forum moderation.



Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2009 05:05AM by Truthtesty.

Quote
zeebrook
I am with you Sistersoap on Truthtesty's less that honest responses...Well done Sistersoap, and keep it up.

To Zeebrook: Would you explain your personal attack to me? And about me? You stated my responses were "less than honest" You said "I am with you Sistersoap on Truthtesty's less that honest responses." It seems that saying someone being "less than honest" is the same as calling them a liar.

Are you calling me a liar or are you trying to suggest that I am a liar and no one should give me creedance?

Are you here to try to discredit me?

Truthtesty



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2009 07:42AM by Truthtesty.

I believe Zeebrook was banned from this message board.

Prebound quote:" I simply thought some folks would like to know the man died. I have no idea about the validity of his biography. It came directly from the Berachah website obit; I wouldn't waste either time or money to pursue the veracity (or lack thereof) of those points."

Truthtesty: That should tell you something don't you think? After all these years and Berachah still "manufactures" its own "set of facts". Thieme was only a major in WWII.

Prebound quote: "The doctrinal issues are another matter. Like you, I disagree with many of Pastor Thieme's "discovered" doctrines. But I do agree with more than a few things he taught. We'll leave it there for now---I need to leave for my "non-clone church" Wed. night Bible study. "

Truthtesty: I'd have to see the actual "more than a few things" that you agree with Thieme on to determine if you are unawarely coerced by the doctrinal cult teachings of Thieme.

Also, I'd need to know the name of actual church and it's doctrinal statement to determine if it were clone or non-clone.

You are safe with info like Thieme was a major in WWII.

Beyond that you should be very specific as to what you agree/disagree with.

As Dr. Wall said:

SUGGESTIONS TO STUDENTS OF R. B. THIEME, JR.
This section is dedicated to those who are presently studying under
Thieme or who may be potential students of Thieme's. The suggestions listed
below may not apply to every student; however, they are appropriate suggestions
in the light of the author's personal experience as a Thieme student, observations
of current problems relating to Thieme students, and information gleaned from a
number of interviews.
1. Check out anything new that Thieme teaches, by engaging in a personal
study of the Word of God. This can be done fairly easily through the following
means. First, read the text involved in its context from at least two different good
translations. Second, use a good, exhaustive concordance (such as a Young's
Concordance), and notice how particular words, that are significant to Thieme's
new doctrines, are actually used in the Scriptures. The use of a word is the major
basis for determining its denotative and connotative meanings. The Young's
Analytical Concordance also includes a breakdown by the particular Hebrew or
Greek words employed. Third, check with other sources, such as other Bible
teachers or Bible commentaries; for in "a multitude of counselors" (Prov. 11:14)
is deliverance. Be like the Bereans in the Book of Acts, who did not believe Paul
until they had checked him out in the Scriptures (Acts 17:1 1). Fourth, sift
Thieme's teachings, so that you are able to screen out that which is truly biblical
doctrine and that which is an extension of Thieme's opinions and personality. If
you are unable to do such a sifting process, you would be wise to refrain from
studying under Thieme at all.
2. Employ other sources of teaching, such as other Bible teachers and
books written on Bible exposition and Bible doctrine, to help you develop a
healthy, balanced Christian life.
3. Plan to become a personal student of the Scriptures, dependent upon the
Lord and the Scriptures, and not dependent upon men. As soon as possible, move
beyond the stage of sucking strained meat; learn how to carve and chew the meat
of the Word of God for yourself.
4. If you are engaged in studying Thieme via tapes, commit yourself to a
balanced diet, using a large number of taped studies by men like, Stanley
Toussaint, S. Lewis Johnson, J. Dwight Pentecost, and Francis Schaeffer. If you
find it difficult to establish your doctrinal categories, you might find it helpful to
read Major Bible Themes by Lewis Sperry Chafer (recently revised and edited by
John F. Walvoord).
5. As you listen to Thieme, be careful to draw only God's truth from the
message, and avoid emulating Thieme's mannerisms. This word of advice is
applicable, not only to students of Thieme, but to students of any teacher.
6. If you are in an evangelical church where Christ is honored and His
Word is respected, do not feel that it is necessary to leave that church, in order to
study under Thieme in a tape group or tape church. You need the ministry of the
members of the body of Christ one toward another under the authority of church
leadership (elders or pastors).
7. Make certain that any practice of separating from other believers is for
reasons clearly stated in Scripture (gross immorality, rebellion against the
church's elders, or doctrinal heresy). Do not allow a man or his distinctive
teachings to be a basis for separation from friends or family.
8. Do not fall prey to the subtle sin of pride in knowledge.
9. Do not confuse your grasping of truth and the collection of information
(either in your head or in a notebook) with truly being affected by truth and
becoming mature.
10. Do not rationalize away the continuing existence of sinful actions and
attitudes (such things as moral compromise, spiritual pride, loss of temper, or
harsh, unloving responses to people), just because you have gone through the
rebound mechanics.
11. Decide to express brotherly love to other believers in the body.
Express it by faith, so that it can be the product of the Holy Spirit.
12. Do not let infatuation with a Bible class hinder you from having a
balanced, Christian life including time to build healthy family relationships, time
to develop Bible study tools, time to build bridges for evangelizing the unsaved,
time to show hospitality, and time to meet various spiritual, material and
emotional needs of other members in the body of Christ.
13. Learn how to be ministered to by ministers who use a different
terminology than Thieme does.
14. Commit yourself to be a healing factor, and promote true expressions
of unity. Do not let the Corinthian error affect you, that is, the error of building a pseudo-spirituality on a man-centered mentality.
15. Be sensitive to the hang-ups and taboos of other Christians. Do not
allow your liberty to become a source of stumbling to others.

[www.texaswalls.org]

For people who have never heard of Thieme it is better to not even get involved because of the serious defects and potential harm in Thieme's extremist doctrinal teachings. It is not worth the time.

Hah prebound it is not the "gall of bitterness", what it is pure joy and happiness of seeing Thieme's evil teachings(which have hurt so many) crumble and burn in the face of truth, with all eyes of the world watching.

It is sheer joy that words can't effectively describe.

Anyhow, I would say thanks for the info, prebound, but Thieme's passing is really irrelevant. Barely worth a technical mention. The danger that still exists to the innocent and/or unwitting are the false teachings that are still around.

Take care.

To the Forum:

Also, another method of discerning truth from propagandized falsehood I suggest people to seek what is "correct", not what forced to be "right".

"Almost always, it is the conviction that 'I am right' or 'my cause is the cause of justice' that triggers violence. That is, ...the moment propaganda does its work, violence is unleashed. And violence can be reduced by countering this propaganda."                                                         Jacques Ellul


Truthtesty



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2009 09:29AM by Truthtesty.

Quote
rrmoderator
I believe Zeebrook was banned from this message board.

I didn't know that. I saw where xtian was banned, but not zeebrook.


Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2009 09:35AM by Truthtesty.

Quote
truthsetsufree
To Forum: Does anyone know what kind of church government Thieme practiced?

Are there any church constitutions out there I could look at?

Thank you

To Truthsetsufree: you can obtain and read Dr. Wall's doctoral dissertation(in PDF format and FREELY OFFERED And available to the entire world) and search "government". Dr. Wall speaks about Thieme's concept of church government.

[www.texaswalls.org]

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2009 09:59AM by Truthtesty.

Hello Truthsetsufree:

I will intersperse my comments below within brackets. Like so: {{{xxx}}} They are long and may need more than one post to complete.

Cheers,
Sistersoap

Quote
truthsetsufree
Sistersoap,

Yes. Egregious teaching, especially done in the spirit of arrogance is very sad to say the least. In what ways do you minister to those who are heavily influence with this ministry?



{{{Since I don't know anyone personally right now who is still inside the Thiemepark I minister mostly online. Sometimes by email, sometimes in the past on forums and message boards, including this one. Sometimes I talk on the phone about it. Once I gave a telephone interview to Dr. Waite which he carries somewhere on his web site BIBLE FOR TODAY. His was the first piece of literature I ever saw about Thieme and his errors. If you want I can either PM or email you if you want further interaction with me on a level not permitted here. In order to turn a negative into a positive, I also created two discussion groups about Thieme. One on Yahoo groups, and one on Delphi. Both have valuable testimonies. I like Delphi best because you can categorize posts according to topic and it is easier to navigate. I was unable to contribute to them for a long time due to illness and other distractions. You and anyone else who would like to can find them on Yahoo and Delphi. They are both called REBOUND TO LIFE. My testimony of leaving Thieme can be found especially on Delphi. I am sure I have spoken of how I came to leave Thieme on this thread, but I would have to research it to find relevant posts.}}}

I know a person who was introduced to Thieme during a crisis in their life. I do have to say that God has done some great things in this person's life through this ministry

{{{I can't imagine what beneficial effect a person might have from Thieme's ministry. Perhaps this person came from a pagan religion or one that also tells one to not read the Bible for themselves because they can't understand it, that the "church" must do all the interpreting and the explaining to get the truth. There are a lot of those out there which are totally unrelated to Thieme. In such a case it might be beneficial as a by product that Thieme's model for teaching verse by verse and assuming the literal accuracy of the Bible can give a person a new respect for God's Words. But the overwhelming effect of his ministry is negative and the errors make the truth much too expensive to be worth it. Truth can be had from the Real Source if it is consulted and believed.}}}


I know a person who was introduced to Thieme during a crisis in their life. I do have to say that God has done some great things in this person's life through this ministry.


{{{A crisis can make us do things we would not ordinarily do. It can also blind us to warning signs we would see if we were not so desperate. I presume you mean that this person was greatly benefited by Thieme's ministry. It would be helpful if you could be more specific, since the kind of "good things" often mentioned here can turn out to be not so good after all. My aim on this board is to be realistic about Thieme, what he taught, how he did it and what effects it has had among those who have been affected by his ministry. There are enough real problems with his teaching that make it unnecessary to exaggerate and to use name calling and personal attacks. I am not a mind reader so I can only go by what I heard on tape and at Berachah itself. I am perfectly happy to concede any real good things that may exist about the ministry he carried on. If someone else with a quite different, milder personality had spoken the exact same things as Thieme has taught for his entire ministry I WOULD STILL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH THE CONTENTS. I am not an expert in psychology, but I wasn't born yesterday either. There is no doubt his abrasive personality irritates and drives away some people, but it did not drive me away. In fact, it attracted me to him. For a long time I thought it was a sign of his boldness and unapologetic stand for "truth." He told us that often enough himself quite unashamedly. But taking him at face value and judging the words alone reveals some serious problems which have terrible consequences in the lives of dedicated followers.}}}



So a lot of their thinking in terms of bible exposition is influenced. But I do see the negative influence, especially Thiemes definition of confession. His definition does not give any legitimacy to how we as believers are to view our sin in relation to God's holiness. Thieme restricts the word confession (homologeo) Grk. to just naming, citing, your sins to God the Father and quote, "How you feel about your sin is inconsequential to God, just name them to God in the privacy of your priesthood."


{{{You have raised a very common objection to Thieme's teaching. This teaching is quite prevalent in Christendom, but he raised it to a new more extreme level. It is one of the most important issues in his system because it affects the veracity of God and His Word. Thieme divided forgiveness up into two parts whereas God deals with sin in one place at one time for all people for all time. I am speaking of the Cross of Christ. Christ died for all sins of all people for all time on that Cross. THAT is what was finished as Christ said. Jesus paid for all sins there and forgiveness is available to all who receive Him as savior. This means that when an individual is saved, Jesus comes to live within him and brings with Him all that He is and all He has done. He did all the work to provide this gift and it is wrapped up in Him. Jesus left no sins out of his sin bearing on the Cross. Without exception, no one can say fairly that Jesus did not die for my sins so God is unfair for judging me. When Jesus bore our sins and took all the wrath of God on Him that we deserved, how much wrath, or punishment is left over for us? NONE. Once you become a child of God through faith in His Son and abandon all other "saviors" such as works, ritual, membership in some group, or what have you, you cannot claim that God forgave some of your sins at salvation, but waits for your confession to forgive you AFTER you are saved. This is a lie against the righteousness of God who said all sins were punished and forgiven at one and the same time and place, and this becomes totally effective for a person when he trusts Christ to do what He said He would do. Jesus is not going to come back and get back on that Cross and bear sins again, because He said He did it all and that God was totally satisfied with this complete work. The Resurrection proves that this is so. If God is satisfied with this work of Christ, why do we persist in claiming that we have to confess FOR forgiveness after salvation? Forgiveness is available to all, but it is only effective for those who trust Christ as savior according to the Scriptures. .........}}}

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST......

from Sistersoap

Continued reply to Truthsetsufree:

Thieme denies this truly finished crosswork by saying that God forgives all your presalvation sins at salvation, but does not forgive your post salvation sins until and unless you confess each and every one. This sets up a false dichotomy between old sins and new, and it is a double standard which denies the many clear Scriptures which say God punished Christ for the sins of the entire world and was satisfied with His Work, making total forgiveness available at the Cross. The purpose of this total forgiveness is to clear the decks to allow the believer a stable basis for a real functioning relationship with God. The blood of Christ (which Thieme also demeans) did not just cover our sins, it CLEANSED THEM ONCE FOR ALL. This is what makes rejecting Christ so awful. There is no more sacrifice that can equal what He accomplished at the Cross.

Thieme took 1 John 1:9 out of context and insisted in making it the gateway for what he calls "being in fellowship" with Christ for BELIEVERS. Being "out of fellowship" or "in" is like a bouncing ball going back and forth between two tennis players. There is no total forward motion, and you cannot grow and mature spiritually if you are constantly preoccupied with sin and self and questions such as did I remember all my sins to confess them? Thieme taught us to link forgiveness with confession for the BELIEVER which is not a Biblical notion in spite of 1 John 1:9, which applies to UNBELIEVERS, and kept us confessing and bouncing in and out of fellowship as we were told and never really going anywhere in our daily relationship with God. Sin is not the issue after salvation! The issue is are we growing in our knowledge and love of Christ and learning how to let Him work in and through us? You can't do this if you are following Thieme's system because your entire relationship with God begins and ends with confession of sins and absolutely nothing else except "taking in more Bible doctrine." Period. That is such a very small idea of having God as your Father and Christ living in you. It keeps you infantile and dependent and really is a form of unbelief! Thieme says that after salvation God will forgive your forgotten sins, and those that you don't know are sins so you can't confess them. Well, if He can do that, He can forgive the ones you know about but don't confess. And He has. This is a very effective way to keep the Christian helpless and myopic. You are like a gerbil running that wheel inside his case. You never get anywhere and you live in fear when God meant His children to live in freedom, love and confidence. It is also a good way to manipulate your audience into jumping over hoops, as Thieme used to call it. He despised other pastors having their congregations "jumping through hoops" such as raising your hand or walking an aisle but his hoops were beyond reproach. Those hoops all began and ended with "getting in fellowship" by "rebound." Rebound as Thieme taught it is a form of slavery and it is unbiblical.

There is nothing wrong with confessing sins to God. But it does not get you or keep you "in fellowship." I am IN THE FELLOWSHIP SAVED or OUT OF FELLOWSHIP (with God) LOST.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

The Bible says THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH, not confession. When you are saved you are confessing that you cannot save yourself, that only Jesus is the Savior because only He bore our sins and satisfied God's wrath against sin and was raised from the dead to prove God's approval of what He did. You are confessing your need and receiving His supply in the person of Jesus Christ. This is for the unbeliever and you can only do it once. This is the gateway for entering the family of God. Once born, you cannot be unborn. When God takes you out of Adam and puts you into Christ, this is a one time deal and it can never be undone. This is your security in the Father's family and it is the only basis for a stable, growing relationship with Him.

God dealt with all the sins of the believer (as well as the unbeliever) at the cross, and when you confess a sin to God your whole focus should be upon THANKSGIVING to Him for what HE HAS ALREADY PROVIDED for you. This honors God's Word and promises and it enables you to talk to Him immediately and freely about any sins in your life. You do not have to spend lots of time "examining yourself" to try to think of all the sins you have committed since the last confession as if this were a Catholic confessional. Since God has already forgiven the sin, you can expect His loving correction particularly by showing you what His Word plainly says about forgiveness and how He has provided for you to "grow" out of sin habits that hinder your spiritual enjoyment of all He wants for you.

Thieme's system enslaves one to sin lists and worries about in and out of fellowship and this is a serious hindrance to your relationship to God. It keeps your eyes on sin and self, and thus multiplies sin because that is what your mind is on all the time.

Not only that, but REBOUND does NOT WORK! Thieme promises this is your gateway to blessing and happiness, but all it does is keep you on that gerbil wheel going over the same territory again and again. No such blessing and happiness materializes because Thieme's way is a WORKS way disguised as GRACE. This was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn. Thieme used the Grace word extensively but the actual mechanisms he taught us are pure works. They appeal to the flesh because it likes to have something to DO, instead of trusting God and His Word as it is written in context. The truth is that God GIVES THESE BLESSINGS FREELY BECAUSE OF WHO AND WHAT CHRIST IS, not because we get or stay "in fellowship" according to Thieme's teaching. We go thorough struggles and trials as a part of human life in a fallen world, but God never abandons to our suffering waiting for us to confess a sin for which He is punishing us! JESUS took all the punishment for us. Any correction God brings to us is first of all in love and because we are not in constant fear of Thieme's version of the divine dog house, we are not left hanging to fend for ourselves with no recourse to God while we are "under discipline." Thieme threatened the believer with divine abandonment just when we need Him the most, when we fail, when we sin, when we act or believe foolishly because of immaturity or even because of rebellion. Thieme taught that only the mature believer (according to his system) can glorify God. Not so! An apple is an apple and pleases its Maker at all stages of its life and growth. Thieme gives the very wrong impression that when we are "out of fellowship" as he defines it, we lose God's blessing, protection, and provision, His hearing our prayers, and we just have to lump it till we "get back in." We might as well be back in the UNSAVED crowd! The pressure from the anxiety that this brings on is totally inconsistent with God's real character and His promises to the believer.

Now I would like to deal with your characterization of Thieme's rebound concept as antinominianism. This is a very common charge. Many people have been taught that TOTAL FORGIVENESS at the Cross encourages sin. It does if you don't understand what it cost and how you receive it. Lack of truth about forgiveness causes believers to be unstable and to resort to sin because they feel helpless to meet God's standard of perfection. The rebound concept is supposed to solve this problem but it makes it worse. The flesh responds to LAW with sin. The demand of the Law for salvation is PERFECTION. Paul explained this very well in Romans. He proves that we cannot meet that standard because of our inability to perfectly obey it. So Christ does for us what we could never do for ourselves and offers us Himself as a gift to be received by grace through faith alone. This is the essence of salvation. If you think you get "in and out of fellowship" by sinning you don't understand what salvation really is, so you are attracted to the fleshly way of living. You welcome Thieme's definition of confession as simply naming sins without any remorse or any emotion whatsoever, and you "move on." But you don't learn anything this way! God wants to teach you about why you did this sin and how He provides for you not to do it over and over. He wants to edify and grow you out of bad sin habits. Thieme's version of "rebound" keeps you from doing this. His entire emphasis is one of fear, dread, and promises of some day, eventually,

if I "take in" enough doctrine ( a form of works),
if confess all my sins as soon as I commit them (another form of legalistic slavery).
if I advance to "maturity" (which kept changing with each new "breakthrough")

maybe some day God will love me, bless me, protect me,

The truth is that God is pleased with you as His child just because you are His child. You responded in faith to His offer and He did the
rest, which comes with the salvation package in Jesus Christ. Not because you took in years worth of Thieme's teaching, not because you rebounded every conscious moment of your life, not because you took in at least one tape a day for the rest of your life. A lot of Paul's epistles explain this total forgiveness but he also warns of the unprofitability of continuing to sin. Thieme's version of forgiveness actually stirs up sin instead of conquering it, and it shows in the lives of his followers. THAT REALLY DOES TEACH ONE TO SIN AND CONFESS, SIN AND CONFESS, creating that "antinomianism" you speak of. It encourages those who are lost to think they are saved and it makes the SODINIs of the world give a bad name to Christ's finished work on the Cross. For if you "sin with abandon" as one forum member has said it, and you enjoy sinning believing you have a "free pass" you don't understand salvation at all, and you may possibly have believed a false gospel. The truth enables you to live freely as a recipient of the most lavish love and grace of God imaginable. They truly are riches. They do not stir up sin, So if this is happening there is something wrong. A truly born again person ought not to love sinning. When rightly instructed as to his privileges and responsibilities a born again Christian should immediately recognize this as the truth, repent of his sin of disbelieving God's grace provision given him on the Cross, and move on with confidence in his acceptance by God, growing in grace and in the knowledge of God the Bible talks about.

SPIRITUALIBERTY has done a great job on this forum dealing with this subject of forgiveness. Do look up his posts for they will probably answer your questions better than I can.

Now Thieme is not the exclusive teacher of confession FOR forgiveness and the concept of "in and out of fellowship" but he is probably the most extreme. His mechanistic teachings feed the fleshly appetite for having something to do with our relationship with the Lord. The truth is that God does all the work, gets all the glory,
and we by faith enjoy the results. This teaching on forgiveness and fellowship is a source of great weakness and confusion among Christians. Thieme taught the eternal security of the believer but contradicted it in practice with his brand of rebound. You can get the truth about this SIMPLY BY READING THE ENGLISH BIBLE. You do not need Hebrew and Greek to get it. It isn't hard, but it does take humility to receive total forgiveness which you did nothing to deserve and cannot do anything to keep. In my opinion this is the source of so much grief and dysfunction in Christian congregations in general, not just Thieme groups.

It is also a source of offense. Teaching the truth about forgiveness effectively will inevitably bring accusations of the "license to sin" objection. The real truth is that Thieme's error in this matter, as well as other teachers, stirs up sin and causes the Christian to be unable to walk in victory. The humility required to receive this blessed forgiveness offends the flesh BECAUSE IT LEAVES THE FLESH NOTHING TO DO! That is truly the "offense of the Cross."}}}

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST....from Sistersoap

CONTINUED TO TRUTHSETSUFREE FROM SISTERSOAP:

FROM TRUTHSETSUFREE:
I came to realize is antinomianism in germ form. My desire was not growing in holiness but rather a pseudomaturinty through intake of Bible doctrine, blah, blah, blah. What is tricky is that his exegesis of 1Jn. 1.9 is pretty good.


{{{I don't know about his exegesis. I am not qualified to judge it. But I don't need it to get the truth from the Bible. You can find it in the Scriptures especially the epistles of the apostle Paul. CONTEXT is key, but Thieme avoided CONTEXT like the plague. If you just read the Word of God and believe it, straight and unadulterated, you can get the truth about this. I would go so far as to say FORGET THE HEBREW AND THE GREEK until YOU CAN READ AND UNDERSTAND THE ENGLISH. The "originals" actually no longer exist. We have in the King James Bible a faithful translation from proper manuscripts. Thieme trained us not to read for ourselves and this robbed us of our ability to simply read the English and assume God wants us to understand and will provide the wisdom we need if we ask Him, and persist in the process. There is a place for the Hebrew and Greek, but you need to become proficient in the English FIRST. }}}


FROM TRUTHSETSUFREE:
So it sounds good but in reality but in practice is very harmful to Christian growth. And when you consider how he impersonalized the Christian way of life, strips God of any real emotions by way of anthropropathisms, what you have left is a very confusing and robotic, mechanical method of living the Christian life, arrogantly.


{{{Yes, this mechanistic teaching appeals to the flesh. It gives it plenty to do, and this encourages arrogance. For example, I thought that according to Thieme, that God GAVE ME power, wisdom, etc and I WAS RESPONSIBLE TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO with it and HOW TO DO IT. There was no notion of CHRIST BEING THE INDWELLING PERSON WHO HIMSELF WORKS in and though me the fruits of growth in grace and of the Spirit. This is a real head trip. Wow! }}}


FROM TRUTHSETSUFREE:
What have you found to work when beginning a dialog with those this heavily influence? I know it will not do me any good attacking either Thieme or this person. I would like to cut to the chase and just say this stuff is cultic (if that is a word?). I am familiar with Dr. Wall's dissertation. Do you know of any other resources?


{{{I would say to visit several web sites for more information on Thieme and on the problems with his teachings.

Start with some ministries which clarify grace and help people understand CHRIST IN YOU, which was totally missing in Thieme's teaching. You had to work very hard daily to stay on that confession treadmill and you could never relax for there was always a new requirement or breakthrough to add to push the goal of "maturity" further away. It became a completely hopeless enterprise, and that is certainly not biblical.

> The first book I read after a long struggle against its apparent "heresy" (to Thieme) was CLASSIC CHRISTIANITY by Bob George. His COMPLETE IN CHRIST is good, All his books are easy to understand. His web site enables you to listen to sermons and to his radio program which are very helpful: [www.realanswers.net]. Search especially for topics like forgiveness, grace, and truth. His People to People radio program is an easy format to listen to as he gives answers to callers and the truth is given out in short doses. Ask if there is one of his People to People groups near where you live. You can confidently send someone to this ministry to help them deal with the forgiveness issue especially.

> Try STEVE MC VEY'S web site and ministry: [www.gracewalk.org] He deals with Christ as your life and has a clear understanding of CHRIST IN YOU, YOUR HOPE OF GLORY. He deals well with legalism of all kinds.

> LIFETIME GUARANTEE is a great place for practical instruction in Christian living. Start with the book of that same name. [www.lifetime.org]

> Go to BIBLE FOR TODAY and THE DEAN BURGON SOCIETY for some enlightening facts that Thieme either ignored or did not know about the history of our Bible. It was reading Dr. D.A. Waite's book DEFENDING THE KING JAMES BIBLE that finally broke me free from Thieme's inappropriate self proclaimed "authority" over me. I learned that I could trust my King James Bible and read it for myself and get what God intended for me to understand. Waite also has some literature specifically about Thieme which you will want to read. One caution, though: Confession of sins FOR forgiveness is accepted on this web site. Many excellent sermons are available on almost any topic related to the history and present state of the English Bible on these sites and can also be found on SermonAudio. Thieme's education at Dallas Seminary did not include much factual information about how we got our English Bible and its history especially in the corruption of the modern versions and their significant differences from the King James Bible. But you can judge for yourself how helpful this might be for your purposes. I was startled at how much I did not know, and was shocked at Thieme's total failure to tell us for example, WHICH TEXT he used and why. I did not know THERE ARE TWO TEXTS. Thieme's is the modern one and the other is the one that faithful believers have accepted for over a thousand years. No discovery has been made that invalidates that confidence. But Thieme assumes he knows all that is important to know, and that we should trust him absolutely to feed us. Rubbish!

I think this will give you a good start. Testy has a good discussion group also. (can't remember the name of the site.. I am sure he will post it again if you ask...) The testimonies given there are well worth your time, though they might not impress a dedicated Thieme follower, they are very useful in opening up the effects the teaching has on people. I expect there are many many people who have never spoken of the trouble they have had because they think they are the only one or that they will be punished by God for "criticizing" Thieme's teachings.

> ORANGE started this thread on the Rick Ross forum. He has amassed a huge database on all things Thieme here: [www.4shared.com]

Be sure to listen to the audio offered there as it will startle you. Some of the selections contain actual clips from Thieme teaching and it hard to deny the problematic aspects of what he taught and how when it is presented in this way. My interview given to Dr. Waite on Thieme is also there.


FROM TRUTHSETSUFREE:
Why is it that those who are influenced by Thieme's teaching ultimately come to the conclusion that they have the only way of maturing in Christ?


{{{Because Thieme specifically teaches that. All other teachers are lazy and stupid. Only he has achieved a level of expertise that is worth trusting and it is exclusive. He drives this home repeatedly under the threat of death from God if you leave his teaching, which is leaving God. He calls this "the sin unto death." You can't avoid catching this attitude if you stay with his ministry. It is poisonous.}}}



FROM TRUTHSETSUFREE:
To be fare though I believe this does depend on the individual. Some are all out others are not. Just curious.


{{{ Yes some people get into Thieme more deeply than others. What really matters is IS IT THE TRUTH? A mixture of truth and error is far harder to leave than pure error, for then it would be very easy to see the problems. The overall effect of Thieme's teaching is negative and causes problems in everyone who stays with it. They just don't recognize it. Go somewhere else for sound teaching uncomplicated by error, heresy and arrogance.}}}


FROM TRUTHSETSUFREE:
If you don't mind me asking, how/why did you come to your conclusions about Thieme's teaching?


{{{Briefly, I became unable to work, sleep, or function because of the pressure of fear, guilt and impossible requirements demanded by Thieme. Then I began to find a few programs on the radio teaching Biblical grace. I struggled a long time to understand what was being presented. It finally clicked and I knew immediately that it was the truth. God demolished "rebound" by His Word, and the rest was a matter of time to work through many kinks.

It dawned on me that Thieme used his invented vocabulary to "make things clearer" but none of these things could actually be found in the English Bible, any English Bible. it slowly dawned on me to ask, "I WONDER IF THIS IS THE SAME THING AS TEACHING THINGS THAT ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Answer: YES, IT IS. That is how it began for me. All along what I wanted was TRUTH AT ALL COSTS. That is what I thought Thieme was offering. After decades of devoted following and listening I began to see that THE EMPEROR HAD NO CLOTHES ON. Thieme's system DOES NOT WORK. It promises much more than it delivers and deceives people that they are receiving a balanced nutritious diet of the Word of God when they are actually getting adulterated lifeless straw. }}}



FROM TRUTHSETSUFREE:
Thanks


{{{You are very welcome. I have to go now. a thunderstorm is beginning here and I need to shut down. Check out the suggested sources and let me know what you think. Cheers,

Sistersoap }}}