Sistersoap,

I promised you another tidbit on Hebrew exegesis that one can follow through relatively easily. In Genesis 2:17 the text reads
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Thieme translates the last part as "dying thou shalt die" (A New Species). This is a translation of the last two words of the Hebrew text. Grammatically we have a qal infinitive absolute (mot) followed by a verb the qal imperfect 2nd masculine singular (tamuth).

Look up Waltke and O'Connor "Biblical Hebrew Syntax" pages 585-6 and you will see Genesis 2:17 on page 586 listed as example 1. On pag3 585 they say "Affirmation is the most straightforward role for an infinitive absolute" and they give a translation "you will surely die" (page 586).

Look up "Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar" page 342 (Section 113 part n) where it says:
"The infinitive absolute used before the verb to strengthen the verbal idea, i.e. to emphasise in this way either the certainty...or the forcibleness and completeness of an occurence." They then list Genesis 2:17 as an example translating it as "thou shal surely die."

Davidson's "Hebrew Syntax" page 123 (Section 90 (b)) is a bit confusing but says that the infinitive absolute "may be in genitive by a noun or preposition" and lists Genesis 2:17. Basically it is saying Genesis 2:17 could be translated as "dying of death".

What his exercise shows is that none of the grammarians agree with Thieme's translation. You could compare commentaries but generally Thiemeites do not respond to them. However a grammar work they will look at.

The point being is you can look up the back of these grammars to the scripture index and simply look up the references to Genesis 2:17 and you can find this information.

There are some others I have found to date.

Cheers for now, Sistersoap

zeebrook and sistersoap both appear to be in the UK.

You can tell by the posts.

The British don't put a period after Dr. and use of the closing "cheers."

Fairly typical of someone posting from the UK.

sistersoap:

The focus of this thread is not how the Wall paper was made available on the Internet.

It seems you are attempting to pull the thread off-topic in a personal attack on Truthtesty.

Please refrain from doing this.

Frankly, this thread has had many trolls, which is probably why Truthtesty is testy.

So let's focus on the topic, which is Thieme, and avoid needless tangents.

Quote
zeebrook
Sistersoap,

I promised you another tidbit on Hebrew exegesis that one can follow through relatively easily. In Genesis 2:17 the text reads
17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Thieme translates the last part as "dying thou shalt die" (A New Species). This is a translation of the last two words of the Hebrew text. Grammatically we have a qal infinitive absolute (mot) followed by a verb the qal imperfect 2nd masculine singular (tamuth).

Look up Waltke and O'Connor "Biblical Hebrew Syntax" pages 585-6 and you will see Genesis 2:17 on page 586 listed as example 1. On pag3 585 they say "Affirmation is the most straightforward role for an infinitive absolute" and they give a translation "you will surely die" (page 586).

Look up "Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar" page 342 (Section 113 part n) where it says:
"The infinitive absolute used before the verb to strengthen the verbal idea, i.e. to emphasise in this way either the certainty...or the forcibleness and completeness of an occurence." They then list Genesis 2:17 as an example translating it as "thou shal surely die."

Davidson's "Hebrew Syntax" page 123 (Section 90 (b)) is a bit confusing but says that the infinitive absolute "may be in genitive by a noun or preposition" and lists Genesis 2:17. Basically it is saying Genesis 2:17 could be translated as "dying of death".

What his exercise shows is that none of the grammarians agree with Thieme's translation. You could compare commentaries but generally Thiemeites do not respond to them. However a grammar work they will look at.

The point being is you can look up the back of these grammars to the scripture index and simply look up the references to Genesis 2:17 and you can find this information.

There are some others I have found to date.

Cheers for now, Sistersoap

Thanks for your suggestions zeebrook. You make a good point about Thieme followers NOT LISTENING TO COMMENTARIES. That is so true. One could cite L.S. Chafer to them all day long and none of it would soak in even though he was Thieme's admired teacher and a man of great integrity and theological genius. Thieme once claimed that Chafer told him he was a genius and that he had opened up a new way of seeing theology or something close to that. The point is Thieme was a persistent name dropper. And he did not always report the entire facts. Sometimes he misunderstood what some expert said and would bring it into his messages as BIBLE DOCTRINE. We were supposed to to "take it in" and build our "edification complex of the soul" with what he said. Now that I look back at it all, it amazes me that I believed EVERY WORD AS BIBLE TEACHING.

Chafer undoubtedly contributed greatly to Thieme's education. But Thieme seemed to give credit to NO OTHER MAN for anything. A converation with a doctor Thieme had seemed to give rise to the DOCTRINE that the baby in the womb was not yet human because it had not had the soul life breathed into it by God, so abortion and miscarriage was no big deal....just a bunch of cells sloughing off. In my taper group, a woman who had had a miscarriage who mourned the loss of her baby was ridiculed and laughed at for not having Thieme's truth about human life before birth. HORRIBLE INSENSITIVE and totally unloving, even if Thieme had been right. I dare say there is ample evidence now that human life begins at conception even if the scientific evidence is often suppressed in favor of the CHOOSE DEATH crowd.

My point is that Thieme was free to improvise and misunderstand and call it BIBLE TRUTH which we were required to accept without question. Questioning this made anyone instantly persona non grata among the "faithful" hence I NEVER SHARED MY NEW CONVICTION THAT THIEME WAS WRONG ABOUT THIS POINT. It never occurred to me to share the reasons I thought this. I knew for sure that nobody in the group would give it serious thought and I might be kicked out or made to feel decidedly unwelcome and then I would have to be a "loner taper." Thieme's OPINIONS were LAW. I never realized that his flawed ideas were flawed or ever could be subjected to serious independent investigation until long after I stopped listening. When I got up the nerve to appear on Delphi's BIBLE DOCTRINE STUDY GROUP and begin with the issue of ABORTION I thought it would be useful to see what the "temperature" was there towards a PRO LIFE point of view, since I knew for a fact that Thieme's teaching was being used to promote the indifference to life in the womb and the personhood of the child before birth. BOY DID I GET AN EYEFUL. AND THE LEVEL OF HATE was shocking even to me. I expected opposition. I did not expect VITRIOL. And some really scary posts by a Thieme follower who was a nurse gave me the shivers. You should all go there and check it out. I did the same with the topic of baptism and got a like result, though not quite to the same degree as with the subject of abortion.

I say all this to suggest that your approach in talking to Thieme supporters by dealing with the subject they have been trained to accept, appealing to the "Hebrew and Greek" mantra probably will have some success. I dare say that many die hards will dismiss even this, but they will at least give it a hearing. It is likely that their first reaction will be to ridicule the sources you quote as "NOT UP TO THIEME'S EXPERTISE" SINCE Thieme claimed his knowledge had reached a pinnacle of scholarship unobtainable by others, since they were lazy and stupid, while he was totally dedicated to his studies. Yes, he basically made himself a study machine and closed his life off to any other function in the church. Nothing that required him to have normal verbal intercourse with others on a level field would be permitted. THIS IS NOT EXPERTISE. This is SICK.

As for me, I can scarcely keep up with English grammar much less Greek or Hebrew of which I don't even know their alphabets. But perhaps it would be good to suggest to a Thieme follower for THEM to look up the verses Thieme is "exegeting" for themselves in any Greek or Hebrew grammar or textbook and see what it says. From what you say, they are likely to find NOBODY agreeing with Thieme about quite a lot that made his system what it was, his BREAKTHROUGHS and special vocabulary and categories. It was the total absence of his special vocabulary and categories in the BIBLE ITSELF IN ENGLISH that first aroused suspicion in me that Thieme might not be right about some things. This was a MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH, if you will pardon my use of the "B" word. It led eventually to a break in my total subservience to Thieme.

Reading the Bible for ourselves is best. But sometimes we can greatly profit from a teacher older in the faith than we are, and this is where good Christian books by faithful Christian authors and teachers come in. Selected books have helped untangle a lot of Thieme knots for me and liberated me from his brand of slavery. This literature won't even reach a dedicated Thieme follower for they have been trained to ignore other writers except Thieme. But neither can they read a Bible book or passage and reason from it or follow its argument in context. To my mind, LACK OF CONTEXT is the greatest missing ingredient in Thieme's system. He not only removed us from independent reading and study of the Bible in its context, he atomized his treatment of "the text" himself so we lost the connection of thought the writer had in mind when he wrote his original. Not only that, but we were sure to lose even THIEME'S train of thought (when there was one), THERE IS NO COMMAND in the Bible making HEBREW AND GREEK MANDATORY to understanding the Bible for the person in the pew. A GOOD FAITHFUL TRANSLATION MADE BY REVERENT BELIEVING SCHOLARS WHO KNOW THEY ARE HANDLING THE INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD and who hold themselves responsible to handle this text with respect and a godly fear will enable you to receive from the Bible what God intended. For me that is the King James Bible. I have said before that I regard it as the best translation in English.

A recent post here made a good point that Thiemers cannot tell you what Ephesians says or what it means by what it says in English. You cannot generally argue a point using only the Bible with them because they have been trained to listen only to Thieme teaching. They see and hear only Thieme when they look at their Bibles, and the markings are all THIEME POINTS. This is the product of true brainwashing. I wonder how many other churches out there do essentially the same thing as Thieme has done? I suspect there are many of them. I bet other problem groups on these Rick Ross message boards have done exactly the same thing by setting up their leader as next to God with the only right doctrine and separate their members from the precious Words of God.

Thanks again for the good points in ministering to Thieme followers. I hope others will post their experiences, especially successful efforts, in ministering to those still caught up in the Thiemepark.

Sistersoap

Quote
rrmoderator
sistersoap:

The focus of this thread is not how the Wall paper was made available on the Internet.

It seems you are attempting to pull the thread off-topic in a personal attack on Truthtesty.

Please refrain from doing this.

Frankly, this thread has had many trolls, which is probably why Truthtesty is testy.

So let's focus on the topic, which is Thieme, and avoid needless tangents.

Thak you moderator. I only made an issue of this matter because Testy HAS been so testy regarding "trolls." He demandsa high standard for others. It is only fair for him to expect to be held to the same standard. His vitriolic attacks drive people off who in my opinion are still in the process of exiting Thieme. The topic is still Thieme. Testy has made himself an "expert" of experts in this subject. When he makes claims that don't seem right and that hurt his credibility and that of this forum I think they SHOULD be challenged. My language was moderate and my request was simple and he could have answered my plain question if he chose to. Testy brought up the minutia to begin with. I only asked him to explain what his connection was.

For those of us who are former followers of Thieme it IS about Thieme. Thieme is responsible for what he did to Testy, to me, and all the others who have been harmed by his teaching. I don't think you have been on the inside of this one. Some private messages have passed between Testy and me about this so I am aware of the limited value of going further down this particular rabbit trail. Testy has it in his power to end it if he chooses.

Meanwhile I will go on with other things and respond to other posts grateful for this forum. It must be a a really difficult thing for you to follow the ins and outs of the THIEMEPARK. It was a really bumpy ride for most of us. When we pursue what seems like irrelevant details or possibly off topic subjects remember that for us it IS STILL THIEME.

Thank you,
Sistersoap

Again, this thread has been invaded by many trolls, attempting to subvert it.

But despite this, let's try to be reasonable and courteous.

This would include everyone now participating.

No one is "the expert" and everyone can learn and benefit from the exchange here.

Personal attacks on members of this message board will be deleted rather than approved.

And repeated attempts to attack members may result in being banned from this message board.

Quote
rrmoderator
Again, this thread has been invaded by many trolls, attempting to subvert it.

But despite this, let's try to be reasonable and courteous.

This would include everyone now participating.

No one is "the expert" and everyone can learn and benefit from the exchange here.

Personal attacks on members of this message board will be deleted rather than approved.

And repeated attempts to attack members may result in being banned from this message board.

Thanks mr. moderator.

I hope that includes when Testy attacks other board members. I have wondered why those particular attacks seem to be tolerated.

Cheers,
Sistersoap

Sistersoap/Forum:

Quote:

"Reading the Bible for ourselves is best. But sometimes we can greatly profit from a teacher older in the faith than we are, and this is where good Christian books by faithful Christian authors and teachers come in. Selected books have helped untangle a lot of Thieme knots for me and liberated me from his brand of slavery. This literature won't even reach a dedicated Thieme follower for they have been trained to ignore other writers except Thieme. But neither can they read a Bible book or passage and reason from it or follow its argument in context. To my mind, LACK OF CONTEXT is the greatest missing ingredient in Thieme's system. He not only removed us from independent reading and study of the Bible in its context, he atomized his treatment of "the text" himself so we lost the connection of thought the writer had in mind when he wrote his original. Not only that, but we were sure to lose even THIEME'S train of thought (when there was one), THERE IS NO COMMAND in the Bible making HEBREW AND GREEK MANDATORY to understanding the Bible for the person in the pew. A GOOD FAITHFUL TRANSLATION MADE BY REVERENT BELIEVING SCHOLARS WHO KNOW THEY ARE HANDLING THE INSPIRED WORDS OF GOD and who hold themselves responsible to handle this text with respect and a godly fear will enable you to receive from the Bible what God intended. For me that is the King James Bible. I have said before that I regard it as the best translation in English."

Could not agree with you more! I spent four years in Bible College and found myself listening more to what Thieme was saying rather than proving and verifying it by my own exegesis. What happens a lot is that we come to scripture with preconceived ideas. Sometimes this is from other pastors and teachers like Thieme, authors, Bible College professors and Institutions, and we justify these preconceived ideas by our own study, if there is any study done on our own at all. I see this with others who are influenced with Thieme's ministry. I believe that everyone affected by these type of ministries have a degree of responsibility themselves and that all the blame cannot be put at Thieme's feet. That does not mean he does not have any culpability. On the contrary, he will bear a huge burden and judgment as a teacher of God's word. ALL teachers will. We as hearers have a responsibility too. Also, your point about context is great too. Thieme's lack of context to support his doctrines are very glaring to me now. Again, my preconceived motivations I believe blinded me.

Christ condemned the Pharisees and Sadducee's severely for their corrupt teaching but also made it clear that the disciples are to be aware and watch out for their leaven.

For those who have had more in-depth exposure to Thiemes ministry and therefore were more negatively effected, I believe that it in order for healing to take place forgiveness needs to be cultivated. My exposure to this teaching did not effect me as negatively as some of those who shared their experiences on the site, some of which makes me really sad to read. My bitterness and anger came from my overall experiences with Christians and church's in general. I have come to the realization that it is not about me, them or anyone else but about who Christ is, what He did for me on the cross, and what He has and will do for me in my life. This has enabled me to love Him more, my family and ultimate forgive those who I have been negatively effected by. I did this by getting back to the basics: READING THE BIBLE: This is truly the "breakthrough" we need in our life!!!!!

Hello Truthsetsufree,

Thanks for the affirmation. I do forgive Thieme, but I still warn others strongly of the problems with his teachings. I am TOTALLY SURE that God knows perfectly what to do about it, and with Thieme himself. I am toally content to let Thieme's fate rest in His capable and loving hands. I do not now nor have I ever hated Thieme. I do hate error and its attendant consequences.

There is MUCH that Thieme taught that is common in churches and believers who have never heard of Thieme. I am thankful that God preserved me through it all and brought me out, despite my desperate clinging to what Thieme taught as gospel truth from God. I minister to those stuck with these unbiblical notions because I know that they are a source of trouble and needless suffering and THE TRUTH ALWAYS GLORIFIES GOD.

JUst picking up your Bible and reading it is an accomplishment for one trained by Thieme. I have to constantly remind myself that God does not turn His back on me EVER FOR ANY REASON, unlike what Thieme taught. This erroneous belief is also widely taught and believed in Christian groups, and it is causes people to get "stuck" and depressed by a wrong impression of the very real thoroughness of God's solution for sin on the Cross of Christ. Thieme made some things conditional that God says are unconditional and this robs the believer of the confidence He meant us to walk in.

GOD DID NOT AND DOES NOT GIVE US A SPIRIT OF FEAR, but THIEME MADE IT A MAINSTAY of his teaching. It was the primary way he controlled us and kept us under his false authority.

You CAN SAFELY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THIEME and LIVE, MATURE AND BLOSSOM in the truth of God's Words.

To the Thieme follower, this is heresy.

And that ought to tell you a lot.


Thanks again,
Sistersoap

Quote
sistersoap
Anyone can get Dr. Wall's dissertation FOR FREE. You did not obtain it at any cost and pass it on to us freely, as you said.
Sistersoap

To sister: This is a lie. You know it is a lie. You had no idea what happened in reality. You just made the bluff up to fit your vitriolic embittered attack on me. You discredit yourself. If you had integrity you would apologize. And? You accuse me of vitriloic attacks? I have not had any problems with several members on this board ie: orange, kc, truthsetsufree and others.
I "test" "unknown" new members especially those who present false Thieme information.

Another thing if someone has personal information about their personal life they don't owe it to you. So you shouldn't try to bully them, exaggerate, or make up stories, because you want to hear more and/or to cover up your false accuusation.

I am not going to allow people to pass false Thieme information. Which? They have been trying to do since this thread began. I would rather have a forum of truth and integrity, even if? some of my testing runs a few people off. I doubt it runs people off at least in the "forever" sense.


Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2009 08:14AM by Truthtesty.