psss quote My life proves, it to me and the all of the CREDIT goes to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Heavenly Father and the oly Spirit who lead me to PASTOR-teacher RB Thieme. His teachings answered all the questions I had about the Bible in the Bible for me. So TT is trying to say God lead me to a CULT and that is WRONG.

Truthtesty: Do you think the people of Jonestown were seeking a lie? [www.google.com] No they thought they had God's truth in thier lives, but? they were misled.

Do you think the "Branch Davidians were seeking a lie? [www.google.com] No they thought they had God's truth in thier lives, but? they were misled.

Dr. Wall - "Thieme was called to the pastorate in May, 1950. His first Sunday may have been a preview of what was to come. Thieme met with the Board of Deacons at the close of his first morning service and demanded their immediate resignation with the threat of his resignation if his demand was not met. The dumbfounded deacons acceded to Thieme's demand, and the pastor became the dominant leader who brooked no challenge to his authority from that time forward."


Dr. Enroth - A central theme of this book ("Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist cult") is that spiritual abuse can take place in the context of doctrinally sound, bible preaching, fundamental, conservative christianity. All that is needed for abuse is a pastor accountable to no one and therefore beyond confrontation.

In Your Adversary the Devil(p51), J, Dwight Pentecost states, "If Satan is to hold the minds and hearts of men captive to his lie, it is necessary for him to blind men to the truth as it is revealed in the Word of God


More quotes(referencing Helmut Thielicke) from Dr. Enroth's book "Youth, Brainwashing, and the Extremist cult", that you might find interesting.

(1st quote) "False teachers not only imitate the real ministers of Christ, but regularly quote Scripture and distort the Bible for their own purposes. "The great seducer always uses the same devices: he seems to take God at his word, and yet he twists the meaning of this word almost before it has left God's mouth" (Thielicke, Between God and Satan, p. 55).

(2nd quote)What the devil means by God and the Son of God is not God at all, but a puppet whom the devil to suit his own purposes, can cause to jump and dance and make bread and come down from his cross. This God is not Lord of the devil, but his slave. The devil uses him to turn to his own account the great things of life and to sanction them with his stolen name.... The devil does this under the cover of biblical and christian phrases, and he can turn Christianity into a myth and an opiate the same way.

(3rd quote)"The devil is a firm believer in God: That is why his disguise is so dangerous. For this reason is he so dangerous a seducer, a "teacher of error" in the church, because there his principle of taking his stand on the fact of God, on the basis of positive belief, is seen at it's most effective. We may well say that the most diabolical thing about the devil, is that he takes this stand. That is why he is accounted a liar from the beginning. That is why he is called the "ape" of God. That is why we can mistake him for God."

(4th quote)"...As we have stated, a key to understandIng the success of extremists cults is the fact of thier ability to destroy the will to be self-determining, In another book, Helmut ThIelicke discusses this subversion of the will by the adversary(devil) who is also fond of using the instrument of propaganda, that is non-objective suggestion for the purpose of "formimg the will". The very phrase forming the will is characteristic. For it indicates that propaganda does address itself to a man as a bearer of a will, but nevertheless influences this will in such a secret and insinuating way that it is almost unconsciously changed and then it accepts and carries out secretly imposed and suggested decisions as if they were its own.(Man in God's World p.185)

(5th quote)PERSONS ACTIVE in the cults understandably do not perceive themselves as engaging in evil, nor do they see themselves as victims of deception. Their organizations and their leaders are upheld as paragons of truth, righteousness, and good works. But as Thielicke explains, "Through its diabolical obfuscating maneuvers the demonic power will always see to it that a person never feels that he is an enemy of God. . . but rather that he thinks he is acting in the name of God" (Ibid., p. 190).

The Bible teaches that spiritual counterfeits practice a "form of godliness" and that they do not always outwardly appear to be wrong. They usually, in fact, are very appealing. Scripture describes Satan as assuming the disguise of an "angel of light": "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no- wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve" .

Dr. Enroth - "I know of groups that nobody's heard of that have the potential for violence," he said. "Who heard of Jim Jones before Jonestown? Who heard of Koresh before Waco? There are lots of groups out there who have never been written up who have the potential to become violent."

And so you were misled, but it wasn't by God.


Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2008 08:41PM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

What I see characteristically missing from Thieme's teachings is the "leading of the Holy Spirit". Thieme does mention being "controlled by the Holy Spirit", but does not mention "leading by the Holy Spirit". It appears, either Thieme does not understand the difference between "absolute control" and "guiding influence" or he intentionally is skewing the issue.

As I have shown before Dr. Wall: [www.texaswalls.org]
Since Thieme's analysis of the biblical terminology is incomplete, he has deduced the misconception that spirituality is an absolute. Some problems in his system immediately arise, of which he himself is already aware. If spirituality is an absolute, and if one enters into absolute control of the Holy Spirit by confession of known sins, then how is it that a believer can ever break fellowship with God; for, as Thieme puts it, "it is impossible for a person to sin who is under the control of the Holy Spirit."33 Thieme's only answer to this dilemma is that a Spirit-controlled believer, by an act of his volition, decides to stop being controlled by the Holy Spirit; then he sins. This, however, does not seem to answer the problem; for rebellion against the Holy Spirit is disobedience to the Scriptures and is therefore sin.


LEWIS SPERRY CHAFER
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
V. THE LEADING OF THE SPIRIT Vol. 6, Page 224
Being led of God is one of the grand realities even of the Old Testament. Upwards of forty times the directing hand of God is seen hovering over His people of old; and in the sphere of His humanity, Christ was led by the Spirit (cf. Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1). In this as much as in any feature of Christ’s humanity He became and is the example or pattern for the child of God. The extent of the advantage which this ministry of the Holy Spirit provides is beyond all computation. As a patient may be guided back to health by giving heed to the directions of a wise physician, so the Christian may be led by the Holy Spirit into paths chosen by infinite love, infinite power, and infinite wisdom....

... No command is recorded in the New Testament which directs the believer to be led of the Spirit; however, it is assumed as a foregone conclusion that apart from this ministry none can follow the path of God’s own choosing. It is said, for instance, that “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Rom. 8:14). That is, by the leading of the Spirit they are proved to be mature sons of God. Here seemingly a distinction is drawn between the child of God and the mature son, the implication being that not all Christians, though uniformly children of God, are manifesting the characteristics of those who have grown to maturity. In other words, not all Christians are spiritual or Spirit-filled; but those led by the Spirit are. Likewise, it is also written: “If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law” (Gal. 5:18). Thus, again, it may be suggested that not every saved person is led of the Spirit; for those who are led are so supplied with true counsel and guidance that manifestly they need no outward commandments. This wonderful relationship which provides such blessed realities may easily be perverted by sincere persons if they do not know the right relation to God through which true guidance may be secured. Not only is it demanded that a right understanding should obtain relative to the leading of the Spirit, but that there be freedom from fanaticism, undue emotionalism, and superstition. Since the whole course of a life may be misdirected and that in spite of sincerity, it is needful to an imperative degree for the believer to learn for himself—for no other’s experience is a pattern—how to be led of the Spirit. No step can be safely taken in this world apart from divine guidance. But little help can be gained by imitating the experience of others or by following rules which men have made. The leading of the Spirit, as the very term used for this ministry implies, is a most intimate and personal experience. To those who by constant attention and prayer are made familiar with the Spirit’s ways of guiding them, the leading becomes one of the richest experiences known to the believer’s heart. The importance of substituting infinite wisdom for finite guessing can never be overestimated. It is the purpose of God that a child inside a home shall through obedience avail himself of the wisdom of his parents. It is likewise the purpose of God that His own child through being guided by the Spirit shall avail himself of the infinite wisdom of God. It is worse than useless for the believer to depend on his own wisdom and even more useless and dangerous for him to seek the wisdom and counsel of others, even if believers. In matters of which men can know nothing they are rightfully termed blind. On this point Christ asked: “Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?” (Luke 6:39).


Truthtesty

To the Forum:

In this documentary, scientist try to discover how Jesus died. Thier conclusion was basically that when Jesus fell with the cross it bruised and weakened the heart, pressure continued to build on the heart. The weakened bruised portion of the heart eventually gave way to continuing pressure and exploded into the pericardial sack. They deduced that Jesus would have sensed this and would have had time time to speak moments before death.

[www.historyinternational.com]
[www.historyinternational.com];

Truthtesty

Quote
mile2
PastorThiemeisGreat2me:

I am curious to know how you explain the selection of Bobby Thieme as pastor of Berachah, when this clearly violates scripture. (I Tim. 3:2--" A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife." Are you aware that Bobby has been married and divorced 3 times? Yet Col. Thieme supported the choice of his son to succeed him.

I have asked this question of 3 others who spoke in favor of Thieme on this forum and each one was unable to defend him, and shortly afterward left the forum. How do you address this blatant disregard for God's Word by Thieme and his congregation?

mile2 (

I think 1Timothy 3:2 is saying that a pastor should not be a polygamist, more than anything. I don't think it's saying he should'nt be divorced or remarried. Scripture makes it clear that there sometimes biblical justification for divorce. Do you know why Bobby got divorced, whether or not it was biblical? I don't.

Still the verse that keeps coming to my mind is this one:
"Judge not lest ye be judged" and also "he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Pastors are gifted, but they are still just men. They sin too.
God forgave him, so should we.

Enough said about that.


I am an ex-Thiemite. I think many of the things I learned from Berachah from the time I was a small child until just about a year ago, were biblically wrong, and had a very negative effect on my spiritual life.

But I also think God uses people where they are. No church has the entire bible interpreted correctly. Everyone makes mistakes. But amazingly enough, God can use us inspite of our misunderstandings.

When I defended Berachah, I sited my personal experience as proof that the Col's ministry was good. I pointed out that I had a very happy life, and felt close to God. I had called on God many times, and seen Him deliver me on many occaisions.

Well, I'm not defending Berachah anymore, but those things I talked about are still true. And in spite of the fact that I was believing some lies, God was moving in my life, because I wanted Him to. I desired a relationship with God, and He honored that. He didn't reject me just because I was mistaken about rebound, or GAP.

I have this belief, and I think the bible backs me up, that if any church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died to pay for the sins of the world, and that anyone can have eternal life by faith in Him, that we, as Christians should not attack that church in any way. They are our brothers, and sisters in Christ, and they are winning souls for the kingdom of God. They are not the enemy.

So if Berachah is a cult or not (I am still undecided), it is still a Christian church, who is very correct about the gospel and is helping to spread that gospel to the corners of the earth. So let's at least appreciate that, and recognize it, and stop talking about them like they are evil, and Thieme the anti-Christ.

Do what you want. I certainly have no authority here.

I removed myself from Berachah over a year ago, completely. And I feel like I am doing much better now. I am learning the truth about certain lies that I've always believed. And it's a work in progress. It will probably take a long time. But the church I attend now isn't perfect either. No church is perfect, and no pastor either. Your spiritual knowledge should not be the sole responsibility of any one pastor. It should mainly be a result of your personal bible study. But also, your local shepherd should help guide you in that. But if you do put all your eggs in one basket as it were, and that pastor leads you wrong in some areas, who's to blame really?

I do not listen to the Col or any of his off-shoot pastors anymore. I don't go to Berachah. After going through a deliverance session at my new church (which was about putting false teachings to death in my life, and moving forward), I drove by Berachah afterward. It was a Saturday and they were closed. I sat in my truck in front of the front entry, and said a prayer. I asked God to heal me from the lies that I learned, and to show everyone that attends that church the truth. But also to strenthen the truthes that are taught at Berachah. I didn't curse them, or anyone. I didn't tell God to avenge my wasted 30 years of my life. I just asked Him to reveal the truth to me and to everyone.

"If any man asks for wisdom, it will be freely given to him."

I don't know when I memorized that verse, but it was a long time ago, and I was attending Berachah. Me knowing scripture and knowing how to use it in my life, is not a waste of time. I am thankful for all the truthes I know, regardless of where I learned them. And I reject the lies, no matter where I learned them.


Just my opinion, as a newborn ex-Thiemite.

Truthtesty: I can appreciate your recovering your way. However, I do take issue with some of your public statements.


radaph: Well, I'm not defending Berachah anymore, but those things I talked about are still true.

Truthtesty: Your statement is self-contradicting. It sounds to me as if your still are defending Thieme. Be specific.

radaph ...it is still a Christian church, who is very correct about the gospel and is helping to spread that gospel to the corners of the earth. So let's at least appreciate that, and recognize it, and stop talking about them like they are evil, and Thieme the anti-Christ.

Truthtesty: Thieme denies the efficacy of the literal Shed Blood of Jesus. That is not a correct gospel. Lewis Sperry Chafer would consider Thieme satanic on that issue. That's not a generalized statement. I have proven that with facts from Chafer's teachings time and again on this forum.

A Christian Church? Which causes emotional problems and Schizophrenia? Dr. Wall: Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can possible produce in the carnal mind a "license mentality." In some cases it can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship.

radaph: But if you do put all your eggs in one basket as it were, and that pastor leads you wrong in some areas, who's to blame really?

Truthtesty: You are. What is your criteria for determining a false teacher?

radaph: I have this belief, and I think the bible backs me up, that if any church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died to pay for the sins of the world, and that anyone can have eternal life by faith in Him, that we, as Christians should not attack that church in any way. They are our brothers, and sisters in Christ, and they are winning souls for the kingdom of God. They are not the enemy.

Truthtesty: The Bible clearly states:

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I think it might help for you to understand the difference between "attacking" (destructive criticism) versus "reproof" of "rebuke" (constructive criticism).

[www.wordcentral.com]

CRITICISM

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. VII pg. 103
CRITICISM
According to its broad usage the word criticism indicates more than an unsympathetic attack upon what is written in the Scriptures; it reaches out to incorporate analysis and evidence in general, and proves as advantageous in establishing that which is true as it does in detecting error where human error exists. Carelessness obtains in the use of terms which classify criticism. The student is enjoined to give heed to suitable definitions and to conform to the distinctions set forth...

...To be added to this consideration is the terminology destructive criticism, which refers to the effort made by unsympathetic men who aim at a breaking down of the testimony of the Sacred Text. Too often all Biblical “criticism” is thought to be of this type, destructive rather than constructive. It may, however, be either one or the other.


Truthtesty

radaph,

Various perspectives (mainly pre-Rick Ross forum) may help with your education.

See file TextResource.pdf

[tinyurl.com]

Quote
Truthtesty
Truthtesty: I can appreciate your recovering your way. However, I do take issue with some of your public statements.

Why does that not surprise me? Seriously Truth, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I respect you as a person, and I understand on a very small level where you are coming from. But I think you are going about this all wrong, and I don't respect your attitude, because I think there is no justification for it. That is why I have not addressed you in any of my posts. And the only reason I am now is because I wish to defend myself, since you've taken it upon yourself to "correct" me.

Quote

radaph: Well, I'm not defending Berachah anymore, but those things I talked about are still true.

Truthtesty: Your statement is self-contradicting. It sounds to me as if your still are defending Thieme. Be specific.

No my statement is not contradicting in any way at all. You misunderstood it.
I am not defending Col Thieme anymore. When I said "those things I talked about are still true" I was referring to the things that I listed before that statement. I thought that was obvious. In other words, I did have a very good spiritual life while attending Berachah. So in spite of a few false teachings, God used me in what I consider to be a big way. My point was, your pastor doesn't have to be correct on every doctrine in the bible in order for you to have a wonderful life in Christ. If that were required, then I think probably no one would ever attain to it.

Quote

radaph ...it is still a Christian church, who is very correct about the gospel and is helping to spread that gospel to the corners of the earth. So let's at least appreciate that, and recognize it, and stop talking about them like they are evil, and Thieme the anti-Christ.

Truthtesty: Thieme denies the efficacy of the literal Shed Blood of Jesus. That is not a correct gospel. Lewis Sperry Chafer would consider Thieme satanic on that issue. That's not a generalized statement. I have proven that with facts from Chafer's teachings time and again on this forum.

I seriously doubt you can accurately speak for Mr. Chafer, nor would he want you to. I know what Thieme teaches about the bloodshed. Though I agree with him, that it is in fact a ritual which symbolized a spiritual sacrifice, I also believe that is inconsequential to salvation. Very few if any gospel verses in the bible even bring up the subject of Christ's blood, thus proving that it isn't necessary to understand all about that subject to be saved. The actual knowledge required to accept eternal life, is very basic, very simple, and very attainable to anyone. Thus accentuating the grace of God, more than just about any other example I can imagine. Salvation isn't obtained through theology, but through faith. Child-like faith, at that.

Quote

A Christian Church? Which causes emotional problems and Schizophrenia? Dr. Wall: Without these clarifications the teaching of confession and forgiveness can possible produce in the carnal mind a "license mentality." In some cases it can even result in a rationalization of the continuing existence of sin and the repression of guilt, and this can produce emotional problems and even schizophrenia. The author has personally counseled people with such problems stemming from their abuse of Thieme's teaching on confession and fellowship.

This is a clear example of your hate, IMO. I've met a great deal of people who attend Berachah, who no longer attend Berachah (many are related to me), and none of them suffer from anything that ever remotely resembles any of these psychological disabilities you refer to. And if they did, it would have nothing to do with Thieme. Those things are caused by chemical inbalances, and genetics. I don't know anyone who was more indoctrinated from a young age than myself, and I have none of those issues. I've also not known any rational person who took the Col's teaching on rebound and warped it into being a "license mentality" as you mentioned. You have really missed his point entirely, if that's what you think. Someone who does that, I think is looking for an excuse to sin and do whatever he/she wants to do. I have never wanted a "license to sin," so I have never sought after one. And even as a child, I never got that crazy idea from anything the Col taught.

Quote

radaph: But if you do put all your eggs in one basket as it were, and that pastor leads you wrong in some areas, who's to blame really?

Truthtesty: You are. What is your criteria for determining a false teacher?

Comparing what is taught to what I know from the word of God. Also I know the Holy Spirit gives us discernment, if we listen to Him. But "false teacher" is a little of a misnomer, in that how much of a man's teachings must be false before he is considered a "false teacher?" All of them? More than 50%? I would prefer to say "a teacher who has some false teachings." That is much more accurate in my opinion.

Quote

radaph: I have this belief, and I think the bible backs me up, that if any church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died to pay for the sins of the world, and that anyone can have eternal life by faith in Him, that we, as Christians should not attack that church in any way. They are our brothers, and sisters in Christ, and they are winning souls for the kingdom of God. They are not the enemy.

Truthtesty: The Bible clearly states:

1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I think it might help for you to understand the difference between "attacking" (destructive criticism) versus "reproof" of "rebuke" (constructive criticism).

[www.wordcentral.com]

Reproof, would be a private conversation between you and the Col. What you are doing falls more into the category of maligning. Let's see what the word says about that.

Tit 3:1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
Tit 3:2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
Tit 3:3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Quote

CRITICISM

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. VII pg. 103
CRITICISM
According to its broad usage the word criticism indicates more than an unsympathetic attack upon what is written in the Scriptures; it reaches out to incorporate analysis and evidence in general, and proves as advantageous in establishing that which is true as it does in detecting error where human error exists. Carelessness obtains in the use of terms which classify criticism. The student is enjoined to give heed to suitable definitions and to conform to the distinctions set forth...

...To be added to this consideration is the terminology destructive criticism, which refers to the effort made by unsympathetic men who aim at a breaking down of the testimony of the Sacred Text. Too often all Biblical “criticism” is thought to be of this type, destructive rather than constructive. It may, however, be either one or the other.

I do not idolize Chafer any more than I do Thieme. Just because in your mind his word is gospel, doesn't mean it is that way for me. I think the motive behind the criticism is crucial to determinig whether it will be constructive or destructive. What is your motive? Keep it short and simple, if you can. Is is love for your bretheren, or hate for your ex-pastor that motivates you?

TT:

Like I said, God my Heavenly Father led me to Pastor Thieme and NO one else led me there, period. So ergo leave it at that. He helped me gather the tools for my own personal study as well and also with his teachings of RBT I've come to an understanding of the Bible. Even after listening to 50 -100 ministers on the radio and TV and books before Thieme, where none of them answered the questions I had and wondered about but Pastor Thieme answered most of them through ICE teaching I knew God answered my prayer for wisdom.

Dr Wall's and LS Chafer did not answer the questions , Pastor Thieme did or helped me to find the answers. I give credit where credit is due and that means I will be honest with everyone about my happiness from learning God's wisdom from his word and the teachings of RBT. Is Dr Wall's a Pastor, is LS Chafer a Pastor?

[...]

Pastor Thieme never implied that the will of God is for us to follow him into a death situation like those Cult leaders had there followers do [...] the great Bible teachers of the past. They all get maligned. RBT believes in the Rapture. He also believes that God will call you home to heaven when your work is done and that is strictly a decision made by God.

[...]

The statement "Blood of Christ" represents to "me" the work of Christ on the cross when he was judged for the sins of the world. I believe that the Blood of Christ is apart of the gospel describing the work of Christ on the cross relating back to the OT types and shadows taught in the age of Israel. What work did he do ? He died a spiritual death so that we who believe the Good News about him could have a spiritual life by being born again. He also died a physical death so that he could be raised as King of Kings and Lord of Lords and fulfill the prophycies of the Old testament as well as being the head of the Church, his Royal Family. But he did not die from bleeding to death like the OT lambs on the altar bled to death from their shed blood.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2008 10:10PM by rrmoderator.

Quote
Truthtesty
Truthtesty: I can appreciate your recovering your way. However, I do take issue with some of your public statements.

radaph qoute:Why does that not surprise me? Seriously Truth, I've said it before and I'll say it again. I respect you as a person, and I understand on a very small level where you are coming from. But I think you are going about this all wrong, and I don't respect your attitude, because I think there is no justification for it. That is why I have not addressed you in any of my posts. And the only reason I am now is because I wish to defend myself, since you've taken it upon yourself to "correct" me.

Truthtesty:
You shouldn't be surprised. You think I am going about this all wrong? Seriously radaph, then prove what I am saying is wrong. It's not. Bring the facts. Bring your best logic.

I never saw where you said "I respect you as a person". Would you point that out?

Doctrinal statement of Dallas Theological Seminary:
Quote:
We believe that Satan is the originator of sin, and that, under the permission of God, he, through subtlety, led our first parents into transgression, thereby accomplishing their moral fall and subjecting them and their posterity to his own power; that he is the enemy of God and the people of God, opposing and exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped; and that he who in the beginning said, “I will be like the most High,” in his warfare appears as an angel of light, even counterfeiting the works of God by fostering religious movements and systems of doctrine, which systems in every case are characterized by a denial of the efficacy of the blood of Christ and of salvation by grace alone (Gen. 3:1–19; Rom. 5:12–14; 2 Cor. 4:3–4; 11:13–15; Eph. 6:10–12; 2 Thess. 2:4; 1 Tim. 4:1–3).

Thieme denies the efficacy of literal Shed Blood of Christ, Chafer does not.

You brought me in on this PUBLIC FORUM when you said Thieme wasn't evil. He is. I said I take issue with some of your statements which by the way you made public to everyone on this forum. If you just wanted to talk to Mile2 then why didn't you PM him? You shouldn't be surprised. Other than making excuses for Thieme are thier any errors of Thieme's that you would like to point out? For correcting the Word?

radaph quote "and I don't respect your attitude, because I think there is no justification for it"

Is that what you told Thieme about his disrespectful attitude? When Thieme called people "dummies" from the pulpit? when Thieme called black people "melanoderms" from the pulpit? When Thieme invalidated people's personal study of the Word of God from the pulpit? etc... I respect what is respect worthy, so far you and Thieme don't fit the bill. For Thieme to misrepresent the gospel for years on end is evil. For Thieme to misrepresent the truth that he had the support of Bauer Ardnt Gingrich and Dr. Walvoord, FOR YEARS and yet? Thieme misrepresented thier words as support for his "junk theology". If Thieme would misrepresent the words of MEN for his "junk theology" then what makes you think Thieme would not misrepresent the Word of GOD to support his "junk theology"?

Emotional problems and schizophrenia? It's true I have seen it. Dr. Wall who has a doctorate degree from Dallas Theological Seminary withnessed it. Quit trying to act like thier is not a huge problem with that church when thier is a HUGE PROBLEM.

<sup>1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I think it might help for you to understand the difference between "attacking" (destructive criticism) versus "reproof" of "rebuke" (constructive criticism).</sup>

radaph quote: Reproof, would be a private conversation between you and the Col. What you are doing falls more into the category of maligning. Let's see what the word says about that.

No. Exactly not. What part of the following do you not understand? 1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

It doesn't say in private. It says REBUKE BEFORE ALL. That's public. Thieme liked to keep the truth from getting out like all cult leaders by keeping falsehoods "private".

You need to learn to check sources and facts. You trusted Thieme before your checked out Thieme's sources. That's your fault. Thieme is in trouble because of Thieme. That is the reason Thieme is in trouble, BECAUSE THIEME MISREPRESENTED THE FACTS HIMSELF. I JUST EXPOSE THE FACTS. I DIDN'T MAKE THIEME MISREPRESENT THE TRUTH. THIEME DID THAT ALL ON HIS OWN.

I am highly skeptical of your so-called "conversion". You are highly critical here, but what have you to be critical of Thieme about? The 1st part in dealing with a problem is admitting there is a problem.


Truthtesty

PastorThiemeisGreat2me:

Your last post was edited, rather than not approved and deleted.

But the next time you engage your personal attacks, religious rants and/or preaching you will be banned.

Focus on the top, which is Thieme and the specific teachings and doctrines that are being debated here.

Last warning.