R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
SpiritualLiberty
()
Date: June 13, 2007 10:14AM
[i:d4b3fd8b8b]What we have in translation is just that, somebody else's interpretation of what they thought whatever manuscript they were translating from meant.
Also, different Bible versions translate some words entirely different. How do you deal with this?[/i:d4b3fd8b8b]
First of all, the solution is not for every one of us to start writing our own translation, regardless of whether we can even speak koine Greek or not. Some basic common sense concerning translation: In order to translate from one language to another, you must be [i:d4b3fd8b8b]verbally fluent, fully literate, and highly skilled in both languages[/i:d4b3fd8b8b]. If you were the owner of a large corporation, and you needed to have your English legal documents translated into foreign languages, would you trust someone who did not fluently speak and read French to translate for your Montreal office? Would you just grab a French lexicon and translate it yourself? Of course not. How much more with God’s Holy Word? Yet today anyone who gets himself a set of lexicons thinks he’s qualified to be a Bible translator (e.g., Galiban, brainout, and co.). There are far too many Christians who cannot even speak Greek playing fast and loose with the Word of God. You and I cannot speak koine Greek, ephesians. Whether we like it or not, if we cannot fluently speak and read koine Greek for ourselves, we need a Bible in English. Our only choice is which English translation we are going to trust. And God has made it abundantly clear which translation that is. Let’s review some basic Bible history…
● The earliest translations of the Greek Scriptures were the Old Syriac and of course the Old Latin of the Waldensians, possibly even translated from the originals, in the 2nd century. In the 4th century, the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine founded the paganized “Christian” church now known as the Roman Catholic Church, and commissioned the heretic Eusebius to have 50 Greek “Bibles” made for the new “churches.” Two of these Roman Catholic Greek Bibles would be discovered centuries later (the [i:d4b3fd8b8b]Vaticanus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]and [i:d4b3fd8b8b]Siniaticus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]codices); both were copied very carelessly, with thousands of differences between them, and many changes were made to both of them over time ([i:d4b3fd8b8b]Sinaiticus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]has at least 14,800 alterations). In the 5th century, the Roman Catholic theologian Jerome was commissioned by Pope Damasus I to write a new Latin translation. Jerome’s corrupt Catholic Latin “Vulgate” generally follows the [i:d4b3fd8b8b]Vaticanus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]text of Eusebius, and is quite different from the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensians.
● One of God’s greatest works in history was the Great Reformation of the 16th century, as the people of Europe rebelled against the tyranny of the pagan Roman Catholic Church and rejected its corrupt Latin “Bible.” The Protestant leaders translated the Bible into the languages of the common people, using the same text that the Waldensian Bibles were based on (which came to be known as the Received Text). The true Gospel was proclaimed and millions were delivered from the pope’s tyranny, as the common people claimed the right to read “God’s Book in their mother tongue.”
● The Catholic reign of terror in England mercifully came to an end with the death of Queen “Bloody” Mary. Her half-sister Elizabeth, who had stood by her Protestant faith at the peril of her life, came to the English throne. King Phillip II of Spain, the fanatical Catholic, was determined to bring England back under the heel of Romanism by force, and Pope Sixtus V pledged 600,000 gold crowns in support. But the vastly outnumbered English fleet fought valiantly against the massive Spanish Armada, and repelled the invading Catholics from the shores of England. And on its return voyage, the rocky coast of Ireland and “Protestant gales” wreaked havoc on the Armada. And as the reign of Queen Elizabeth drew to a close, and her successor, King James I, came to the throne, the English language was reaching the peak of its vocabulary, form, and power of expression. And in time it would become the most dominant language in human history.
● Entire books have been written about the brilliance of the King James translators and the great providence of God behind the King James Bible, and with good reason. There was [b:d4b3fd8b8b]John Bois[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], who could read Hebrew at age 5 and skillfully write Hebrew at age 6. He regularly corresponded with his instructors in Greek. His own writings amount to over 30,000 pages. [b:d4b3fd8b8b]Lancelot Andrews [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]was fluent and skilled in 15 languages, a man known as “that great gulf of learning,” and was also a renowned preacher, who won many Catholics to Christ. There was [b:d4b3fd8b8b]William Bedwell[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], with his extensive expertise in Hebrew, as well as its cognate languages, such as Arabic and Persian. [b:d4b3fd8b8b]Henry Savile [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]was such a master of the Greek language that he was able to translate the mathematical and geometrical teachings of Euclid into English. There were [b:d4b3fd8b8b]Thomas Harrison[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], famous for his “exquisite skill in Greek and Hebrew idioms,” [b:d4b3fd8b8b]John Spencer[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], chosen as Greek lecturer at Corpus Christi College at age 19, and many more who tower above today’s translators.
● Many more volumes could be written about the centuries of great victories for God’s Word and God’s people throughout the world for the past four centuries, all on the foundation of the King James Bible. The King James Bible brought the Gospel throughout the vast British Empire. The King James Bible was the foundation of the birth of the great American republic, the nation most used by God since OT Israel. As George Washington and his troops marched to the battlefield, they did not have a library of lexicons and “revised” modern “Bibles”; all they had, and all the needed, was the Authorized Version of 1611. As those early American Christians faced the challenges and trials of winning their liberty and building a new nation, their faith was based on one Book—the great English Bible on which God has shown His undeniable blessing time and time again. The great missionaries and evangelists who won thousands upon thousands of souls to Jesus Christ, like Hudson Taylor, William Carey, David Livingstone, the Wesley brothers, D. L. Moody, and so many more, carried the King James Bible with them. The King James Bible has converted more unbelievers to Christ and sustained more of God’s people than any other Bible in any language, including the “original Greek.” There is no denying the great providence and blessing of God behind the King James Bible, the “Lion of the Protestant Reformation.”
● Thousands of Greek manuscripts have been discovered since the 17th century, demonstrating overwhelming support for the King James Bible (about 98%) and contradicting the modern “Bibles,” all of which are primarily based on the old corrupt Catholic Greek “Bibles” of the Dark Ages, published by Constantine. Through these manuscript discoveries, God is showing us that He was in complete control when He brought about the Great Reformation and the writing of the Protestant Bibles, translated from the Received Text; and He is confirming that we have had His true Word all along, in our precious old King James Bible. His Word does not need to be picked apart and rewritten in a hundred different modern “Bible versions,” or by elitist Bible-correctors like Thieme, who can’t hold a candle to the men used by God in 1611.
The simple facts are these: God is sovereign. He could have made the original languages available to His people throughout history, but He did not. During the Dark Ages, He primarily used the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensians to carry on the Gospel and the Christian faith, not the “original Greek.” For 16th-century Germans, it was Luther’s German Bible, not the “original Greek.” For the severely persecuted Huguenots, it was the Olivetan Bible, not the “original Greek.” For 16th-century English Christians, who endured many trials, it was primarily Tyndale’s Bible and the Geneva Bible, not the “original Greek.” And for millions of Christians around the world since the 17th century, it has been the King James Bible, not the “original Greek.” All the great truths of the Christian faith were proclaimed and defended by common Christians reading the Bible in their own language. For the past 1,800 years, God’s people never needed to learn koine Greek, in order to understand God’s Word and bear a shining testimony to the Christian faith and the doctrines of Scripture, in the midst of suffering and persecution that you and I can scarcely comprehend. But now, God’s people suddenly [i:d4b3fd8b8b]must [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]know Greek and Hebrew to understand the Bible? If that is so, then where has God been for the past 1,800 years?
[i:d4b3fd8b8b]As a student of Thieme's, I feel that more is expected of me because I have access to [b:d4b3fd8b8b]so much information [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]that might [b:d4b3fd8b8b]not have been available [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]to people in the past.[/i:d4b3fd8b8b]
“So much information” was not available to people in the past? Let’s compare your statement with Scripture.
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Mat 24:35 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]Heaven and earth shall pass away, but [b:d4b3fd8b8b]my words shall not pass away[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 12:6-7 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt [b:d4b3fd8b8b]preserve them from this generation for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 33:11 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]The [b:d4b3fd8b8b]counsel [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]of the LORD [b:d4b3fd8b8b]standeth for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], the thoughts of his heart [b:d4b3fd8b8b]to [u:d4b3fd8b8b]all[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] generations[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 100:5[/b:d4b3fd8b8b] For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his [b:d4b3fd8b8b]truth [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]endureth [b:d4b3fd8b8b]to [u:d4b3fd8b8b]all[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] generations[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 111:7-8[/b:d4b3fd8b8b] The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. [b:d4b3fd8b8b]They stand fast for ever and ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], and are done in truth and uprightness.
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 117:2[/b:d4b3fd8b8b] For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and [b:d4b3fd8b8b]the truth of the LORD [u:d4b3fd8b8b]endureth for ever[/u:d4b3fd8b8b][/b:d4b3fd8b8b]. Praise ye the LORD.
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 119:152 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]Concerning thy [b:d4b3fd8b8b]testimonies[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], I have known of old that [b:d4b3fd8b8b]thou hast founded them for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 119:160 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]Thy [b:d4b3fd8b8b]word [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]is true from the beginning: and [b:d4b3fd8b8b][u:d4b3fd8b8b]every one[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] of thy righteous judgments [u:d4b3fd8b8b]endureth for ever[/u:d4b3fd8b8b][/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Isa 59:21 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, [b:d4b3fd8b8b][u:d4b3fd8b8b]shall not depart[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] out of thy mouth, nor out of [u:d4b3fd8b8b]the mouth of thy seed[/u:d4b3fd8b8b], nor out of [u:d4b3fd8b8b]the mouth of thy seed's seed[/u:d4b3fd8b8b][/b:d4b3fd8b8b], saith the LORD, [b:d4b3fd8b8b]from henceforth and for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
Under Thieme’s doctrinal system, there is so much “doctrinal” information that God withheld from almost all His people for 1,800 years. Yet God has promised us many times that He would never let this happen.
Also, different Bible versions translate some words entirely different. How do you deal with this?[/i:d4b3fd8b8b]
First of all, the solution is not for every one of us to start writing our own translation, regardless of whether we can even speak koine Greek or not. Some basic common sense concerning translation: In order to translate from one language to another, you must be [i:d4b3fd8b8b]verbally fluent, fully literate, and highly skilled in both languages[/i:d4b3fd8b8b]. If you were the owner of a large corporation, and you needed to have your English legal documents translated into foreign languages, would you trust someone who did not fluently speak and read French to translate for your Montreal office? Would you just grab a French lexicon and translate it yourself? Of course not. How much more with God’s Holy Word? Yet today anyone who gets himself a set of lexicons thinks he’s qualified to be a Bible translator (e.g., Galiban, brainout, and co.). There are far too many Christians who cannot even speak Greek playing fast and loose with the Word of God. You and I cannot speak koine Greek, ephesians. Whether we like it or not, if we cannot fluently speak and read koine Greek for ourselves, we need a Bible in English. Our only choice is which English translation we are going to trust. And God has made it abundantly clear which translation that is. Let’s review some basic Bible history…
● The earliest translations of the Greek Scriptures were the Old Syriac and of course the Old Latin of the Waldensians, possibly even translated from the originals, in the 2nd century. In the 4th century, the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine founded the paganized “Christian” church now known as the Roman Catholic Church, and commissioned the heretic Eusebius to have 50 Greek “Bibles” made for the new “churches.” Two of these Roman Catholic Greek Bibles would be discovered centuries later (the [i:d4b3fd8b8b]Vaticanus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]and [i:d4b3fd8b8b]Siniaticus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]codices); both were copied very carelessly, with thousands of differences between them, and many changes were made to both of them over time ([i:d4b3fd8b8b]Sinaiticus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]has at least 14,800 alterations). In the 5th century, the Roman Catholic theologian Jerome was commissioned by Pope Damasus I to write a new Latin translation. Jerome’s corrupt Catholic Latin “Vulgate” generally follows the [i:d4b3fd8b8b]Vaticanus [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]text of Eusebius, and is quite different from the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensians.
● One of God’s greatest works in history was the Great Reformation of the 16th century, as the people of Europe rebelled against the tyranny of the pagan Roman Catholic Church and rejected its corrupt Latin “Bible.” The Protestant leaders translated the Bible into the languages of the common people, using the same text that the Waldensian Bibles were based on (which came to be known as the Received Text). The true Gospel was proclaimed and millions were delivered from the pope’s tyranny, as the common people claimed the right to read “God’s Book in their mother tongue.”
● The Catholic reign of terror in England mercifully came to an end with the death of Queen “Bloody” Mary. Her half-sister Elizabeth, who had stood by her Protestant faith at the peril of her life, came to the English throne. King Phillip II of Spain, the fanatical Catholic, was determined to bring England back under the heel of Romanism by force, and Pope Sixtus V pledged 600,000 gold crowns in support. But the vastly outnumbered English fleet fought valiantly against the massive Spanish Armada, and repelled the invading Catholics from the shores of England. And on its return voyage, the rocky coast of Ireland and “Protestant gales” wreaked havoc on the Armada. And as the reign of Queen Elizabeth drew to a close, and her successor, King James I, came to the throne, the English language was reaching the peak of its vocabulary, form, and power of expression. And in time it would become the most dominant language in human history.
● Entire books have been written about the brilliance of the King James translators and the great providence of God behind the King James Bible, and with good reason. There was [b:d4b3fd8b8b]John Bois[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], who could read Hebrew at age 5 and skillfully write Hebrew at age 6. He regularly corresponded with his instructors in Greek. His own writings amount to over 30,000 pages. [b:d4b3fd8b8b]Lancelot Andrews [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]was fluent and skilled in 15 languages, a man known as “that great gulf of learning,” and was also a renowned preacher, who won many Catholics to Christ. There was [b:d4b3fd8b8b]William Bedwell[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], with his extensive expertise in Hebrew, as well as its cognate languages, such as Arabic and Persian. [b:d4b3fd8b8b]Henry Savile [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]was such a master of the Greek language that he was able to translate the mathematical and geometrical teachings of Euclid into English. There were [b:d4b3fd8b8b]Thomas Harrison[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], famous for his “exquisite skill in Greek and Hebrew idioms,” [b:d4b3fd8b8b]John Spencer[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], chosen as Greek lecturer at Corpus Christi College at age 19, and many more who tower above today’s translators.
● Many more volumes could be written about the centuries of great victories for God’s Word and God’s people throughout the world for the past four centuries, all on the foundation of the King James Bible. The King James Bible brought the Gospel throughout the vast British Empire. The King James Bible was the foundation of the birth of the great American republic, the nation most used by God since OT Israel. As George Washington and his troops marched to the battlefield, they did not have a library of lexicons and “revised” modern “Bibles”; all they had, and all the needed, was the Authorized Version of 1611. As those early American Christians faced the challenges and trials of winning their liberty and building a new nation, their faith was based on one Book—the great English Bible on which God has shown His undeniable blessing time and time again. The great missionaries and evangelists who won thousands upon thousands of souls to Jesus Christ, like Hudson Taylor, William Carey, David Livingstone, the Wesley brothers, D. L. Moody, and so many more, carried the King James Bible with them. The King James Bible has converted more unbelievers to Christ and sustained more of God’s people than any other Bible in any language, including the “original Greek.” There is no denying the great providence and blessing of God behind the King James Bible, the “Lion of the Protestant Reformation.”
● Thousands of Greek manuscripts have been discovered since the 17th century, demonstrating overwhelming support for the King James Bible (about 98%) and contradicting the modern “Bibles,” all of which are primarily based on the old corrupt Catholic Greek “Bibles” of the Dark Ages, published by Constantine. Through these manuscript discoveries, God is showing us that He was in complete control when He brought about the Great Reformation and the writing of the Protestant Bibles, translated from the Received Text; and He is confirming that we have had His true Word all along, in our precious old King James Bible. His Word does not need to be picked apart and rewritten in a hundred different modern “Bible versions,” or by elitist Bible-correctors like Thieme, who can’t hold a candle to the men used by God in 1611.
The simple facts are these: God is sovereign. He could have made the original languages available to His people throughout history, but He did not. During the Dark Ages, He primarily used the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensians to carry on the Gospel and the Christian faith, not the “original Greek.” For 16th-century Germans, it was Luther’s German Bible, not the “original Greek.” For the severely persecuted Huguenots, it was the Olivetan Bible, not the “original Greek.” For 16th-century English Christians, who endured many trials, it was primarily Tyndale’s Bible and the Geneva Bible, not the “original Greek.” And for millions of Christians around the world since the 17th century, it has been the King James Bible, not the “original Greek.” All the great truths of the Christian faith were proclaimed and defended by common Christians reading the Bible in their own language. For the past 1,800 years, God’s people never needed to learn koine Greek, in order to understand God’s Word and bear a shining testimony to the Christian faith and the doctrines of Scripture, in the midst of suffering and persecution that you and I can scarcely comprehend. But now, God’s people suddenly [i:d4b3fd8b8b]must [/i:d4b3fd8b8b]know Greek and Hebrew to understand the Bible? If that is so, then where has God been for the past 1,800 years?
[i:d4b3fd8b8b]As a student of Thieme's, I feel that more is expected of me because I have access to [b:d4b3fd8b8b]so much information [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]that might [b:d4b3fd8b8b]not have been available [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]to people in the past.[/i:d4b3fd8b8b]
“So much information” was not available to people in the past? Let’s compare your statement with Scripture.
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Mat 24:35 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]Heaven and earth shall pass away, but [b:d4b3fd8b8b]my words shall not pass away[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 12:6-7 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt [b:d4b3fd8b8b]preserve them from this generation for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 33:11 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]The [b:d4b3fd8b8b]counsel [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]of the LORD [b:d4b3fd8b8b]standeth for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], the thoughts of his heart [b:d4b3fd8b8b]to [u:d4b3fd8b8b]all[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] generations[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 100:5[/b:d4b3fd8b8b] For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his [b:d4b3fd8b8b]truth [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]endureth [b:d4b3fd8b8b]to [u:d4b3fd8b8b]all[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] generations[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 111:7-8[/b:d4b3fd8b8b] The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. [b:d4b3fd8b8b]They stand fast for ever and ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], and are done in truth and uprightness.
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 117:2[/b:d4b3fd8b8b] For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and [b:d4b3fd8b8b]the truth of the LORD [u:d4b3fd8b8b]endureth for ever[/u:d4b3fd8b8b][/b:d4b3fd8b8b]. Praise ye the LORD.
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 119:152 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]Concerning thy [b:d4b3fd8b8b]testimonies[/b:d4b3fd8b8b], I have known of old that [b:d4b3fd8b8b]thou hast founded them for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Psalm 119:160 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]Thy [b:d4b3fd8b8b]word [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]is true from the beginning: and [b:d4b3fd8b8b][u:d4b3fd8b8b]every one[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] of thy righteous judgments [u:d4b3fd8b8b]endureth for ever[/u:d4b3fd8b8b][/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
[b:d4b3fd8b8b]Isa 59:21 [/b:d4b3fd8b8b]As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, [b:d4b3fd8b8b][u:d4b3fd8b8b]shall not depart[/u:d4b3fd8b8b] out of thy mouth, nor out of [u:d4b3fd8b8b]the mouth of thy seed[/u:d4b3fd8b8b], nor out of [u:d4b3fd8b8b]the mouth of thy seed's seed[/u:d4b3fd8b8b][/b:d4b3fd8b8b], saith the LORD, [b:d4b3fd8b8b]from henceforth and for ever[/b:d4b3fd8b8b].
Under Thieme’s doctrinal system, there is so much “doctrinal” information that God withheld from almost all His people for 1,800 years. Yet God has promised us many times that He would never let this happen.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
SpiritualLiberty
()
Date: June 13, 2007 10:29AM
The Authorized Version’s translators were masters of linguistic scholarship. They regularly conversed in Greek and Hebrew and many other languages. They authored extensive publications of their own in these languages. As Alexander McClure wrote, [i:1723b0c69e]“It would be impossible to convene out of any one Christian denomination, or out of all, a body of translators on whom the whole Christian community would bestow such confidence as is reposed upon that illustrious company, or who would prove themselves as deserving of such confidence.”[/i:1723b0c69e]** Yet it seems that anyone who gets himself a lexicon feels he is qualified to “correct” their work. If Thieme’s “exegesis” and “corrected” translations are so vital for our understanding of the Bible, why does he not go ahead and translate the whole Bible for us?
The following account describing the experience of Richard Kilby, one of the KJB translators, is a very appropriate illustration of how pointless the Bible correcting and nitpicking of men like Thieme really is:
[i:1723b0c69e]Dr. Kilby, an excellent Hebrew scholar and Professor of this language in the university, also expert in Greek and chosen as one of the translators, went on a visit with Sanderson, and at church on Sunday they heard a young preacher [b:1723b0c69e]waste a great amount of the time allotted for his sermon in [u:1723b0c69e]criticizing several words[/u:1723b0c69e] in the then recent translation[/b:1723b0c69e]. He carefully showed how one particular word should have been translated in a different way. Later that evening the preacher and the learned strangers [/i:1723b0c69e][Kilby and Sanderson] [i:1723b0c69e]were invited together to a meal, and Dr. Kilby took the opportunity to tell the preacher that [b:1723b0c69e]he could have used his time more profitably[/b:1723b0c69e]. The Doctor[/i:1723b0c69e] [Kilby] [i:1723b0c69e]then explained that the translators had very carefully considered the “three reasons” given by the preacher, but they had found another [b:1723b0c69e]thirteen more weighty reasons [/b:1723b0c69e]for giving the rendering complained of by the young critic.[/i:1723b0c69e]***
It is much easier for Bible-correcting pastors like Thieme to rip apart the Authorized Version of 1611 when they do not actually have to face the men who wrote it. And my challenge to all the Thieme followers still stands: [i:1723b0c69e]Show me one scriptural principle that is not perfectly clear in the plain English of a King James Bible.[/i:1723b0c69e]
This will probably be my last post addressed to you until I hear from you again (assuming you haven’t fled the debate for good). So in closing, I’ll remind you of a few things I challenged you with in previous posts. You Thieme followers claim that you are the “winners,” and those who reject your doctrines, especially “rebound,” will end up as miserable “losers.” This is a very serious stand to take, ephesians…to draw such a dividing line between yourselves and other Christians, and claim such high privileges for yourselves while predicting such dire consequences for us. If this is indeed the truth, you are responsible to warn us about our impending miserable fate, and be prepared to show substantial support from Scripture. Yet to this point, you, Galiban, brainout, and GeneZ have left far too many legitimate questions unanswered to prove your case. I would exhort you to seriously consider if this is really because you have seen some comments on the forum that you find offensive, or if you are simply not able to answer me from the Scriptures.
I am sure you initially learned some truth from Thieme that helped you. But there is far more teaching from Thieme that is utterly unscriptural and has done great damage to many of God’s people. His excessive authoritarianism and especially his attitude toward Christians from other churches are inexcusable. Perhaps it is time for you take whatever you may have learned from Thieme that was actually scriptural, and search for further understanding of the Scriptures outside his doctrinal system.
Your brother in Christ,
Liberty
____________________
** Alexander McClure, [i:1723b0c69e]The Translators Revived[/i:1723b0c69e], pp. 63-64.
*** David Otis Fuller, [i:1723b0c69e]Which Bible?[/i:1723b0c69e], p. 17. For an excellent 17-chapter dissertation on this issue, see [web.mountain.net].[/size:1723b0c69e]
The following account describing the experience of Richard Kilby, one of the KJB translators, is a very appropriate illustration of how pointless the Bible correcting and nitpicking of men like Thieme really is:
[i:1723b0c69e]Dr. Kilby, an excellent Hebrew scholar and Professor of this language in the university, also expert in Greek and chosen as one of the translators, went on a visit with Sanderson, and at church on Sunday they heard a young preacher [b:1723b0c69e]waste a great amount of the time allotted for his sermon in [u:1723b0c69e]criticizing several words[/u:1723b0c69e] in the then recent translation[/b:1723b0c69e]. He carefully showed how one particular word should have been translated in a different way. Later that evening the preacher and the learned strangers [/i:1723b0c69e][Kilby and Sanderson] [i:1723b0c69e]were invited together to a meal, and Dr. Kilby took the opportunity to tell the preacher that [b:1723b0c69e]he could have used his time more profitably[/b:1723b0c69e]. The Doctor[/i:1723b0c69e] [Kilby] [i:1723b0c69e]then explained that the translators had very carefully considered the “three reasons” given by the preacher, but they had found another [b:1723b0c69e]thirteen more weighty reasons [/b:1723b0c69e]for giving the rendering complained of by the young critic.[/i:1723b0c69e]***
It is much easier for Bible-correcting pastors like Thieme to rip apart the Authorized Version of 1611 when they do not actually have to face the men who wrote it. And my challenge to all the Thieme followers still stands: [i:1723b0c69e]Show me one scriptural principle that is not perfectly clear in the plain English of a King James Bible.[/i:1723b0c69e]
This will probably be my last post addressed to you until I hear from you again (assuming you haven’t fled the debate for good). So in closing, I’ll remind you of a few things I challenged you with in previous posts. You Thieme followers claim that you are the “winners,” and those who reject your doctrines, especially “rebound,” will end up as miserable “losers.” This is a very serious stand to take, ephesians…to draw such a dividing line between yourselves and other Christians, and claim such high privileges for yourselves while predicting such dire consequences for us. If this is indeed the truth, you are responsible to warn us about our impending miserable fate, and be prepared to show substantial support from Scripture. Yet to this point, you, Galiban, brainout, and GeneZ have left far too many legitimate questions unanswered to prove your case. I would exhort you to seriously consider if this is really because you have seen some comments on the forum that you find offensive, or if you are simply not able to answer me from the Scriptures.
I am sure you initially learned some truth from Thieme that helped you. But there is far more teaching from Thieme that is utterly unscriptural and has done great damage to many of God’s people. His excessive authoritarianism and especially his attitude toward Christians from other churches are inexcusable. Perhaps it is time for you take whatever you may have learned from Thieme that was actually scriptural, and search for further understanding of the Scriptures outside his doctrinal system.
Your brother in Christ,
Liberty
____________________
** Alexander McClure, [i:1723b0c69e]The Translators Revived[/i:1723b0c69e], pp. 63-64.
*** David Otis Fuller, [i:1723b0c69e]Which Bible?[/i:1723b0c69e], p. 17. For an excellent 17-chapter dissertation on this issue, see [web.mountain.net].[/size:1723b0c69e]
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
kcjones
()
Date: June 14, 2007 12:06AM
Liberty, could you send me an email? I have a few questions for you.
Thanks,
KC
Thanks,
KC
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
SpiritualLiberty
()
Date: June 14, 2007 10:23AM
KC,
Just sent you an email...
Liberty
Just sent you an email...
Liberty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 15, 2007 10:07AM
To the Forum:
I am not advocating any text, because I think that every text is possibly errored. I think every text is ignorant of the [u:97468fdf11]ENTIRE complete true image of God[/u:97468fdf11].΅ BY GOD'S DESIGN! [u:97468fdf11]At best we only know what has been revealed[/u:97468fdf11]. If you disagree with this then explain what infinity is. You can't. It is too large a concept, just as God is.
Although texts are questionable, many people's faith in God are not. People know thier own faith is true(or not true) So being raised Catholic I know that most Catholics truly have faith in Jesus as saviour. There are various doctrines in disagreement with the Protestant doctrines. The faith on both sides of that Catholic/Protestant coin are in Jesus as Saviour. The same with Thiemites, thier faith is in Jesus as saviour. Most people regardless of "errored doctrines" approach thier faith in Jesus honestly and faithfully. It is thier very own approach of honest devout faith that weakens thier own critical eye to look at errors within thier own "faith/doctrine". It is much easier to find fault with someone's else's doctrines, than thier own.
To break the grip of the psycological bond that Thieme holds over many of his most extreme followers, they need to see with thier own eyes the errors Thieme has made from Thieme's own references. You can beat YOUR IDEA of truth over the head of a cult member all day, it won't do any good. They are programmed to doubt whatever you say. You must show them exactly how thier cult leader is false. So Thiemites need to go through the exercise of what Thieme has referenced. This is the reason that I have produced factual evidence for the Thieme-Chafer-DTS trilogy. I have produced evidence for Thiemites to develop thier own critical eye(critical thinking), while recovering from Thieme, however they choose to. It is within the microcosm of the Thieme-Chafer-DTS trilogy, that I seek to prove Thieme's falsehoods.
For example:
You start with Thieme's references.
Thieme has referenced Arndt and Gingrich in BOC 1972 ,
Thieme stated in BOC 1972
Ok now we go to Thieme's reference "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and early christian writings" Arndt and Gingrich. What does it say?
Brief description of nekros from Arndt and Gingrich
subst. = substantive
*Note Col 2:12 is used only in once and it is grouped with Mt 17: 9; Mk 6: 14; Lk 9: 7; J 2: 22; 12:1, 9, 17; 21:14; Ac3:15; 4:10; 13: 30; Ro6: 4; 7: 4; 8: lla, b, 34 v.l.; 10: 9; 1 Cor 15: 12a, 20; Gal 1: 1; Eph 1: 20; [b:97468fdf11]Col 2:12[/b:97468fdf11]; 1 Pt 1: 21; IMg 9: 3; ITr 9: 2; Pol 2: If (1 Pt 1: 21); 5: 2.
So Col 2:12's meaning is the same as in all the rest. Thieme said it was used only once.
In addition, more research from Dr. Wall says "
Αlso you can go to crosswalk's interlinear to help Col 2:12's spelling. [bible.crosswalk.com]
I am not a Greek scholar. I don't need to be. If necessary you can contact Dallas Theological Seminary. Scholars there will help you with the translation of this lexicon.
Also, as I have said before ANY BODY OF KNOWLEDGE (texts, book, etc..) can be used to create a cult. So, Whenever someone tells you "THE TRUTH" you should SOURCE IT OUT-YOURSELF - and verify if it's true or not true. Until you have, you should not let yourself be persuaded to accept it as the truth. The Truth stands on it's own and doesn't require persuasion.
But don't trust me, check it out for yourself.
By the way to my Protestant friend Liberty, since you referenced "Protestant Gales", Which religion would you ascribe to the weather(storm) which destroyed the British Navy's counter-attack at Yorktown? and as a result 2 days later Cornwallis surrendered, effectively ending the American Revolution?
Truthtesty
I am not advocating any text, because I think that every text is possibly errored. I think every text is ignorant of the [u:97468fdf11]ENTIRE complete true image of God[/u:97468fdf11].΅ BY GOD'S DESIGN! [u:97468fdf11]At best we only know what has been revealed[/u:97468fdf11]. If you disagree with this then explain what infinity is. You can't. It is too large a concept, just as God is.
Although texts are questionable, many people's faith in God are not. People know thier own faith is true(or not true) So being raised Catholic I know that most Catholics truly have faith in Jesus as saviour. There are various doctrines in disagreement with the Protestant doctrines. The faith on both sides of that Catholic/Protestant coin are in Jesus as Saviour. The same with Thiemites, thier faith is in Jesus as saviour. Most people regardless of "errored doctrines" approach thier faith in Jesus honestly and faithfully. It is thier very own approach of honest devout faith that weakens thier own critical eye to look at errors within thier own "faith/doctrine". It is much easier to find fault with someone's else's doctrines, than thier own.
To break the grip of the psycological bond that Thieme holds over many of his most extreme followers, they need to see with thier own eyes the errors Thieme has made from Thieme's own references. You can beat YOUR IDEA of truth over the head of a cult member all day, it won't do any good. They are programmed to doubt whatever you say. You must show them exactly how thier cult leader is false. So Thiemites need to go through the exercise of what Thieme has referenced. This is the reason that I have produced factual evidence for the Thieme-Chafer-DTS trilogy. I have produced evidence for Thiemites to develop thier own critical eye(critical thinking), while recovering from Thieme, however they choose to. It is within the microcosm of the Thieme-Chafer-DTS trilogy, that I seek to prove Thieme's falsehoods.
For example:
You start with Thieme's references.
Thieme has referenced Arndt and Gingrich in BOC 1972 ,
Quote
"Arndt and Gingrich famous German linguistic scholars, were the first ones to get a breakthrough on "haima." On page 22 of their Greek Lexicon, there is a dissertation on how they discovered it."
Thieme stated in BOC 1972
Quote
"For example, in Colossians 1:22, "death" is in the singular - one death. The Greek noun here is "thanatos" and refers to His spiritual death. When it comes to His physical death, the Greek word is "[b:97468fdf11]nekros[/b:97468fdf11]." Often when the resurrection of Christ is mentioned, it is from "nekros," not from "thanatos." The only time that "[b:97468fdf11]nekros[/b:97468fdf11]" is used for spiritual death as well is when it is found in the plural as the object of the preposition "ek," as in Colossians 2:12: "... God, having raised him out from the DEATHS."
Ok now we go to Thieme's reference "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and early christian writings" Arndt and Gingrich. What does it say?
Brief description of nekros from Arndt and Gingrich
Quote
vεκpos, α, ov — 1. adj. (perh. as early as Horn., certainly Pind. + ; inscr., pap., LXX) dead.
a. lit. — a. of living beings etc..
β. lifeless (Wsd 15: 5) of the brass serpent etc...
b. fig. — a. of pers. etc...
β. of things v. epya dead works that cannot bring eternal life
2. [b:97468fdf11]subst.[/b:97468fdf11] 6 v. (so mostly Horn. +; inscr., pap., LXX, En. 103, 5; Philo; Jos., Bell. 4, 331 al.) the dead person.
a. lit. Lk 7: 15; etc...
[b:97468fdf11]In this combination v. without the article means all the dead, all those who are in the underworld[/b:97468fdf11] (vekpoi = the dead: Thu. 4, 14, 5; 5, 10, 12; Lucian, V.H. 1, 39; Polyaenus 4, 2, 5). [b:97468fdf11]Likew. in the expr. ek. v. and aπo v. [/b:97468fdf11](Bl-D. §254, 2; Rob. 791f). [b:97468fdf11]εyεipειv εκ v., εyεipεθαι εκ[/b:97468fdf11] v. Mt 17: 9; Mk 6: 14; Lk 9: 7; J 2: 22; 12:1, 9, 17; 21:14; Ac3:15; 4:10; 13: 30; Ro6: 4; 7: 4; 8: lla, b, 34 v.l.; 10: 9; 1 Cor 15: 12a, 20; Gal 1: 1; Eph 1: 20; [b:97468fdf11]Col 2:12[/b:97468fdf11]; 1 Pt 1: 21; IMg 9: 3; ITr 9: 2; Pol 2: If (1 Pt 1: 21); 5: 2.
subst. = substantive
*Note Col 2:12 is used only in once and it is grouped with Mt 17: 9; Mk 6: 14; Lk 9: 7; J 2: 22; 12:1, 9, 17; 21:14; Ac3:15; 4:10; 13: 30; Ro6: 4; 7: 4; 8: lla, b, 34 v.l.; 10: 9; 1 Cor 15: 12a, 20; Gal 1: 1; Eph 1: 20; [b:97468fdf11]Col 2:12[/b:97468fdf11]; 1 Pt 1: 21; IMg 9: 3; ITr 9: 2; Pol 2: If (1 Pt 1: 21); 5: 2.
So Col 2:12's meaning is the same as in all the rest. Thieme said it was used only once.
In addition, more research from Dr. Wall says "
Quote
Also the New Testament [b:97468fdf11]nekros[/b:97468fdf11] is an adjective meaning "dead," and when it is used as a [b:97468fdf11]substantive[/b:97468fdf11], it refers to a dead person, not death. As such it is used idiomatically in the plural to refer to the abode of the dead (i.e. "the dead ones"), and it never means the event of death.60 The Greek word for death is thanatos, and it is not used in the plural in the New Testament. [b:97468fdf11]Thieme's premise that the New Testament teaches that Christ rose from deaths, therefore, ignores the clear meaning of the terms[/b:97468fdf11].
Αlso you can go to crosswalk's interlinear to help Col 2:12's spelling. [bible.crosswalk.com]
I am not a Greek scholar. I don't need to be. If necessary you can contact Dallas Theological Seminary. Scholars there will help you with the translation of this lexicon.
Also, as I have said before ANY BODY OF KNOWLEDGE (texts, book, etc..) can be used to create a cult. So, Whenever someone tells you "THE TRUTH" you should SOURCE IT OUT-YOURSELF - and verify if it's true or not true. Until you have, you should not let yourself be persuaded to accept it as the truth. The Truth stands on it's own and doesn't require persuasion.
But don't trust me, check it out for yourself.
By the way to my Protestant friend Liberty, since you referenced "Protestant Gales", Which religion would you ascribe to the weather(storm) which destroyed the British Navy's counter-attack at Yorktown? and as a result 2 days later Cornwallis surrendered, effectively ending the American Revolution?
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 16, 2007 11:12PM
To the Forum:
I misquoted Thieme in the above when I said
Thieme actually said
Regardless, Arndt and Gingrich says that nekros in Col 2:12 means "all those who are in the underworld", not "physical and spiritual deaths".
Truthtesty
I misquoted Thieme in the above when I said
Quote
"Thieme said it was used only once."
Thieme actually said
Quote
"The only time that "nekros" is used for spiritual death as well is when it is found in the plural as the object of the preposition "ek," as in Colossians 2:12: "... God, having raised him out from the DEATHS."
Regardless, Arndt and Gingrich says that nekros in Col 2:12 means "all those who are in the underworld", not "physical and spiritual deaths".
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
orangeperuviscacha
()
Date: June 19, 2007 11:04AM
Much has been said about Berachah and it’s military flavour.
Below is a link to the thoughts and reasoning of an ex-military follower of Thieme Jr’s ideas....
[www.specialforces.com]
Scroll down one third of the page to the article, “Word of Truth”, by Rev. G.J. Rako, LTC (Ret) USAR.
Below is a link to the thoughts and reasoning of an ex-military follower of Thieme Jr’s ideas....
[www.specialforces.com]
Scroll down one third of the page to the article, “Word of Truth”, by Rev. G.J. Rako, LTC (Ret) USAR.
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: June 22, 2007 11:41AM
Thieme BOC 1972
Truthtesty: This is the erroneous conclusion of Thieme, not Arndt and Gingrich. No where are the words "spiritual death" used in Arndt and Gingrich's definition of "haima" on page 22 or 23. Also, be clear Arndt and Gingrich do use the words "spiritual death" on page 351 under the term "thanatos", but not on pgs 22 or 23. So Arndt and Gingrich are familiar with the term "spiritual death", [b:953a8b6487]but they do not use it or conclude with it under the term "haima" on pgs 22 or 23[/b:953a8b6487].
Arndt and Gingrich "haima"
[b:953a8b6487]b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1[/b:953a8b6487]
1 Clement 55:1 says
1Clem 55:1
Arndt and Gingrich are saying "many kings and rulers" completed and expiatory sacrifice "that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood". Did Thieme try to say that "many kings and rulers" died spiritually and that thier literal "blood" was not efficacious, in this context of 1 Clement 55:1? No Thieme did not. Thieme never mentioned 1 Clement 55:1, even though Arndt and Gingrich use 1 Clement 55:1 as thier very 1st example of the term "blood" (used figuratively) as an "expiatory sacrifice" for the paragraph.
1 Clement goes on...
1Clem 55:2
[www.earlychristianwritings.com]
The figurative usage of "haima" is not a question of it's being used figuratively or not figuratively. On that, almost everyone agrees. The question is of the literal meaning in which the figurative term implies.
Truthtesty
Quote
"Christ "delivered us out from our sins by means of his blood" ("haima").While the word "blood" usually refers to literal blood, there is also another usage. Arndt and Gingrich, famous German linguistic scholars, were the first ones to get a breakthrough on "haima." On page 22 of their Greek Lexicon, there is a dissertation on how they discovered it. [b:953a8b6487]They conclude: " 'Haima' refers to literal human blood on the one hand; but on the other hand, it refers to blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice." So "haima" in this passage is used in the sense of the spiritual death of Christ."[/b:953a8b6487]
Truthtesty: This is the erroneous conclusion of Thieme, not Arndt and Gingrich. No where are the words "spiritual death" used in Arndt and Gingrich's definition of "haima" on page 22 or 23. Also, be clear Arndt and Gingrich do use the words "spiritual death" on page 351 under the term "thanatos", but not on pgs 22 or 23. So Arndt and Gingrich are familiar with the term "spiritual death", [b:953a8b6487]but they do not use it or conclude with it under the term "haima" on pgs 22 or 23[/b:953a8b6487].
Arndt and Gingrich "haima"
Quote
Quote:
αιμα
1. lit.---a. of human blood J 19:34 etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. of blood of animals Hb 9:7,18,25 etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
2. fig---a. as the seat of life (Lev 17:11, Wsd 7:2, Jos., Ant 1, 102) etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
[b:953a8b6487]b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1[/b:953a8b6487] etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
3. of the (apocalyptic) red color, whose appearance in heaven indicates disaster etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
[b:953a8b6487]b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1[/b:953a8b6487]
1 Clement 55:1 says
1Clem 55:1
Quote
But, to bring forward examples of Gentiles also; many kings and rulers, when some season of pestilence pressed upon them, being taught by oracles have delivered themselves over to death, [b:953a8b6487]that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood[/b:953a8b6487]. Many have retired from their own cities, that they might have no more seditions.
Arndt and Gingrich are saying "many kings and rulers" completed and expiatory sacrifice "that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood". Did Thieme try to say that "many kings and rulers" died spiritually and that thier literal "blood" was not efficacious, in this context of 1 Clement 55:1? No Thieme did not. Thieme never mentioned 1 Clement 55:1, even though Arndt and Gingrich use 1 Clement 55:1 as thier very 1st example of the term "blood" (used figuratively) as an "expiatory sacrifice" for the paragraph.
1 Clement goes on...
1Clem 55:2
Quote
We know that many among ourselves have delivered themselves to bondage, that they might ransom others. Many have sold themselves to
slavery, and receiving the price paid for themselves have fed others.
[www.earlychristianwritings.com]
The figurative usage of "haima" is not a question of it's being used figuratively or not figuratively. On that, almost everyone agrees. The question is of the literal meaning in which the figurative term implies.
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: July 01, 2007 01:02PM
To the Forum:
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer:
Thieme certainly wasn't influenced by Dr. Chafer here, now was he? Thiemites know what I am talking about. Bit of an eye-opener for ya now isn't it?
Thieme tried to build his own reputation by parasiting off the famous reputations of both Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer and Dr. C. I. Scofield, while hiding the real truth of the matter. The real truth being that for decades, Thieme invalidated [u:f802ceacd5]ALL[/u:f802ceacd5] christians like Dr. Chafer and Dr. Scofield as "[b:f802ceacd5]BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS[/b:f802ceacd5]". Instead of telling the truth (like a man), Thieme tried to hide the facts. Thieme lied and said Dallas Theological Seminary had changed it's teachings, when in fact they had not. It was Thieme who had changed his teachings. It was Thieme who put out 5 different versions of his "Blood of Christ" manuals.
Truthtesty
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer:
Quote
Heart. In its psychological sense, the term heart refers, alike in both Testaments, to human life with its energies exercised. The physical organ which bears this name is the distributor of the blood and the Biblical conception is that the life is in the blood ([b:f802ceacd5]Lev. 17:11[/b:f802ceacd5]). [b:f802ceacd5]It is thus natural that the heart should be deemed the center of human life.[/b:f802ceacd5] Similarly, the heart is the organ that reacts to human emotions and is thus as easily considered the center of sensibility. In Proverbs it is written, “The heart knoweth its own bitterness” (14:10, R.V.), and “Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life” (4:23). In this manner the Word of God relates the term heart to natural self-knowledge. To the same end, Isaiah 6:10—a passage six times quoted in the New Testament—and 1 Corinthians 2:9 are especially revealing. It is written: “Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed” (Isa. 6:10); “But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him” (1 Cor. 2:9). It was declared of man as early in his history as the record of Genesis 6:5 that “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” The prophet Ezekiel declares it to be Jehovah’s purpose to give Israel a “new heart” (Ezek. 36:26), and the Apostle writes of the law being “written in their hearts.” The heart is to be purified “by faith,” Peter writes of the “hidden man of the heart,” Jehovah “searches the heart.” From such passages as these it is to be seen that the term heart represents specific exercise of the realities of human life and may thus, to some extent, be distinguished from the soul and the spirit, though here, again, no close line may be drawn and human speculation is of little profit.
Thieme certainly wasn't influenced by Dr. Chafer here, now was he? Thiemites know what I am talking about. Bit of an eye-opener for ya now isn't it?
Thieme tried to build his own reputation by parasiting off the famous reputations of both Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer and Dr. C. I. Scofield, while hiding the real truth of the matter. The real truth being that for decades, Thieme invalidated [u:f802ceacd5]ALL[/u:f802ceacd5] christians like Dr. Chafer and Dr. Scofield as "[b:f802ceacd5]BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS[/b:f802ceacd5]". Instead of telling the truth (like a man), Thieme tried to hide the facts. Thieme lied and said Dallas Theological Seminary had changed it's teachings, when in fact they had not. It was Thieme who had changed his teachings. It was Thieme who put out 5 different versions of his "Blood of Christ" manuals.
Truthtesty
R.B. Thieme Jr.
Posted by:
SpiritualLiberty
()
Date: July 03, 2007 08:03AM
Interesting question, Testy. A few things before I get to the Battle of Yorktown… I am not actually a traditional “Protestant”; that is, I do not adhere to the specific theology of any one church from the time of the Reformation (e.g., Lutheran, Calvinist, Scottish Presbyterian, etc.). As I mentioned in one of my posts to ephesians, there were Romanist traditions that even the Reformers themselves couldn’t shake. I have many theological disagreements with my Calvinist and Lutheran brethren. (Fortunately, we can respectfully disagree on doctrinal issues, without calling our differing brethren “losers,” “jackasses,” “swine,” and “naked peasants” like the Thiemites do.) I personally believe that the group during the Reformation period that was closest to the Bible was the Anabaptists, who rejected all the liturgical and sacramental traditions of pagan Rome as well as the fatalistic philosophies of Calvinism.Quote
Truthtesty
By the way to my Protestant friend Liberty, since you referenced "Protestant Gales", Which religion would you ascribe to the weather(storm) which destroyed the British Navy's counter-attack at Yorktown? and as a result 2 days later Cornwallis surrendered, effectively ending the American Revolution?
Regarding the “Protestant gales”… I believe that history reveals God’s providence and His faithfulness, and that this is why the Israelites treasured their history and recorded so much of it in the OT Scriptures. As David wrote, “I remember the days of old; I meditate on all thy works; I muse on the work of thy hands.” I believe we can see God’s hand at work in history long before the term “Protestant” was ever known, in the histories of groups like the Waldensians and Hussites. Although the Reformers were far from perfect, I also believe that the providence of God behind the Reformation is undeniable. (The one Reformer whose faith I have serious doubts about is Calvin, who was responsible for other murders and tortures besides that of Servetus.) When I see a massive Catholic attack on England destroyed, and how God would use the English Bible, and more specifically the Armada being torn apart by storms, I have to believe that this was the providence of God protecting England at that time.
The Battle of Yorktown… The Reformation of the 16th century was a giant first step in overthrowing Roman Catholic tyranny and protecting the common people’s right to have their own Bibles and their own convictions. But it was still just the first step. Those who believed in complete religious liberty, free from interference from the state, were still a small minority, such as William of Orange, the hero of the Reformation in the Netherlands. As much as I respect King James I of England for his stand against the Catholic Church (in spite of the Catholic plots against his life), his unification of Great Britain, and his support of the great Bible translation, England as a nation still had not accepted the principle of religious liberty, and there is no justification for James’ oppression of the Separatists. When the American colonies rebelled in 1775, the English government still had not accepted the principles of religious and political liberty, hence their treatment of the colonies which resulted in the Revolution. The English government may not have been ready for full religious liberty, but the Founding Fathers of America were, and I believe this is why God was with them and gave them the victory. The storm at Yorktown was certainly a blessing for the Americans (as was the heavy fog that covered Long Island on August 30, 1776, enabling Washington’s troops to escape Howe’s army of over 30,000), but there is no guarantee that Cornwallis’ crossing of the York river would have succeeded even in good weather. Of course, this does not guarantee that those fighting for the right cause will always have military victory. The history of the Huguenots, for example, is full of great victories as well as severe persecution. But whether they were victorious on the battlefield, or giving their lives for the Name of Christ, they left behind a great legacy and testimony to the world.
Liberty
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