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HappyAndFree
I left Berachah shortly after Thieme taught that God's justice takes precendence over His love.

If you [b:e1a02cd121]loved[/b:e1a02cd121] your brother? And you both worked on the police force? If you held superior rank? If he kept on showing up drunk on duty? Would love prevail? Or, would justice? Should he be fired from his job if he refused to sober up? I guess you missed the point being made...

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I had trouble with that one. This was back in the late 70s or early 80s. I later heard that he had recanted that doctrine.

Not recanted. He balanced it out so people who took it like you did would stop misunderstanding what was being taught.

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How many other people left Berachah before he recanted? How many people died before he recanted?

So? They were free to leave. Cults do not allow for that. Point made?

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Life's too short for me to accept that any human is an authority on God and His character. He left us His word. He left us His Spirit. His Spirit is my translator.

I see. So you are the human authority on God and his character? But, you just said no human can be?

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We're all going to be wrong about some of our thoughts on God.

And? That means no pastor does a good job in teaching? If he makes some mistakes along the way? If we are all going to be wrong? How does that make it a cult? :roll:

I do not like this pastor. He personally bothers me. I do not like how my family likes him = cult.

GeneZ[/quote]

GeneZ wrote: If you [b:5ece24cd21]loved[/b:5ece24cd21] your brother? And you both worked on the police force? If you held superior rank? If he kept on showing up drunk on duty? Would love prevail? Or, would justice? Should he be fired from his job if he refused to sober up? I guess you missed the point being made...

Happy and Free writes: I believe God's love develops-encourages, builds, corrects, stands when everything else is falling, holds up, gives out and doesn't demand back.

I wouldn't be showing my brother love if I didn't hold him accountable for his behavior.

GeneZ wrote: I see. So you are the human authority on God and his character? But, you just said no human can be?

Happy and Free writes: I never claimed to be an authority on God and His character. I study the bible on my own; I study the bible under a pastor; I read books of many other theological scholars. I keep my heart open to the truth, even when I don't like it. And trust me, my toes get stepped on! But there are some things that I just can't swallow. That's usually the Holy Spirit guiding me. It's different from just 'not liking' something I hear. When I just can't swallow something, I pray about, and I meditate about it, and I pray and meditate again and again, until I either understand and accept it or God points me to the 'real' truth about the matter in some other way. And He does that for us. 'Seek and you will find' is not an empty promise.

All I can say is that while at Berachah, there were far too many of the "I just can't swallow it" moments. And God always showed the truth or a clearer picture of the truth elsewhere. Cult or not, it is not where I chose to study.

I'm not sure what Berachah is. I've pondered it. I can't assume to know the motivation of Col. Thieme. He clearly isn't after money. He seems to think he's got it right. I don't see in him any intent to do harm.

But God's word has shown me that he was wrong on many issues. I think people blindly follow him. A person should not feel guilty about turning to God after one of Thieme's teachings to ask, "Hey God, is this for real? Is he right on this issue?" And yet, that is how I felt when under his ministry, guilty for questioning, guilty for doubting. Maybe others don't feel that way. Maybe you don't feel that way. I can only speak for myself, and that is what I'm doing here in this chat room. Speaking for myself.

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HappyAndFree
GeneZ wrote: If you [b:9e4e8b3425]loved[/b:9e4e8b3425] your brother? And you both worked on the police force? If you held superior rank? If he kept on showing up drunk on duty? Would love prevail? Or, would justice? Should he be fired from his job if he refused to sober up? I guess you missed the point being made...

Happy and Free writes: I believe God's love develops-encourages, builds, corrects, stands when everything else is falling, holds up, gives out and doesn't demand back.

I wouldn't be showing my brother love if I didn't hold him accountable for his behavior..

Even so? What has this got to do with being a cult? Jerry Falwell is a cult if what you complain about were to be the criterion! I am beginning to think you're maybe a cult of anticult! You know? Think about it. :wink:

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GeneZ wrote: I see. So you are the human authority on God and his character? But, you just said no human can be?

Happy and Free writes: I never claimed to be an authority on God and His character. I study the bible on my own; I study the bible under a pastor; I read books of many other theological scholars. I keep my heart open to the truth, even when I don't like it. And trust me, my toes get stepped on! But there are some things that I just can't swallow. That's usually the Holy Spirit guiding me. It's different from just 'not liking' something I hear. When I just can't swallow something, I pray about, and I meditate about it, and I pray and meditate again and again, until I either understand and accept it or God points me to the 'real' truth about the matter in some other way. And He does that for us. 'Seek and you will find' is not an empty promise.

Yes! That's how it works! No one teacher is perfect in all he does! But? How does this mark someone as a cult?

I know pastors with seminary educations who learned from Thieme! I knew a Professor of Ancient Languages from Harvard who recommended Thieme to me! Gee wiz? I do not understand what the man teaches!? He must be a cult!

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All I can say is that while at Berachah, there were far too many of the "I just can't swallow it" moments.

Berachah is for the advanced Bible student in many ways. Remember? Colonel Thieme was invited by some of the student body of MIT to be a guest speaker? This man is not for everyone. [b:9e4e8b3425]You will have many "I do not swallow it" moments if God has not assigned this teaching ministry to you. [/b:9e4e8b3425]

I too, did not swallow everything he taught. I so happened to live right near two different Bible colleges when I was introduced to his teaching. I took about a year of frequent visits to the campus libraries to search in reference books to verfiy what RBT taught on certain subjects.

Up until then such reference books were dry and holding not much purpose for me. But, now they sprung to life. I began to discover that some of the harder teachings of Thieme were not something he made up! He was simply following teachings that preceeded him. He had an emphasis that seemd new, because very few would even teach such things during the era of cheering crowds spelling out Jesus name. He was for the serious seminary student in many ways. Not for the cheering crowds.

A cult is not based upon orthodox teachings that turn off certain believers who want to keep it on their own level.

Not always correct? OK. No one is. but? Cult? What?!

[b:9e4e8b3425]2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.[/b:9e4e8b3425]

Many thought Paul was a cult. Many believers gave him the nickname, "the abortion." Did you know that?

Even Peter found Paul's teachings difficult to understand. Cult? Paul would have his name mentioned here if he was called to be a teacher today.

If you want to say Thieme is at times hard to understand? Fine with me.

If you want to say Thieme is at times incorrect? Fine with me.

If you want to say he has a personality which rubs you the wrong way? Fine! He even openly admitted he could not figure out why God picked him to teach with such a personality. FINE! But a cult?

Looking for someone to show you how wrong he is? Do a search on the internet... Some will even say Paul was apostate. Get on with your life. Find a church where you can grow. No one was making you stay in Berachah. RBT was the first one to say if you do not like the teaching, to go find another church ... that there were thousands in town. That's not the words of a cult. You're not thinking. You do not like the man and his teaching. So? You pronounce him to be a cult? How humble of you.

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And God always showed the truth or a clearer picture of the truth elsewhere. Cult or not, it is not where I chose to study.

If that's what you believe? Then? Ironically.. that is how cults are formed.

Someone teaches you what they think the Spirit is telling them is truth. That's how it happens. But does that mean it has to be a cult? No, but that is how it happens. [b:9e4e8b3425]"The Holy Spirit showed me this is the Truth!" [/b:9e4e8b3425] Cults believe they are doing God's will. What you are trying to label the Colonel with is a generic value. It makes no sense in view of the man's teachings that others can not deny are truth.

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I'm not sure what Berachah is. I've pondered it. I can't assume to know the motivation of Col. Thieme. He clearly isn't after money. He seems to think he's got it right. I don't see in him any intent to do harm.

It is a church that God raised up to reach a certain type of believer.

Just like Peter was sent to the Jews, and Paul the Gentiles. Not every church is for everyone. It was not for you. Fine. Leave it at that.

Stop being silly and think if it rubs you the wrong way and certain things confused you it must be a cult. That is being rather self righteous in my opinion. Hal Lindsay and Chuck Swindoll were both students of Thieme. Are they a cult, too? I can find things to disagree with them. So?

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But God's word has shown me that he was wrong on many issues.

Which means? You are right on many issues?

You could be wrong. Ever ask yourself that? If not? Maybe you can start a cult with others who will agree with what you believe the Word is telling you personally. That's how it begins, you know.

[b:9e4e8b3425]2 Timothy 4:3 niv
"For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers [u:9e4e8b3425]to say what their itching ears want to hear[/u:9e4e8b3425]."[/b:9e4e8b3425]

Read the Bible for yourself and have no prior training? That is good on only a very limited level. I have had contact with qualified seminary trained pastors. One told me point blank that few are qualified to evaluate the teachings of Thieme. Not that he agreed with all Thieme taught. But, he was showing how Thieme's teachings were not the usual we find today. Much we find today is simply a matter of 'preaching to the choir.'

You just do not like Theime. You do not understand what he said in too many cases. Then you reacted by feeling you know what's right, and he must be a cult. I know pastors that a dedicated to study who highly respect RBT. And? They [b:9e4e8b3425]do not agree[/b:9e4e8b3425] with all he taught.

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I think people blindly follow him.

Yes! Some do.

But does that make him a cult?

They would have followed someone else blindly because that is what they are as people! Thieme used to do things to chase these kinds off. He knew it was no good, too. Wake up!

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A person should not feel guilty about turning to God after one of Thieme's teachings to ask, "Hey God, is this for real? Is he right on this issue?"

You know why Theime always guarded everyone's privacy? Taught that everyone should mind their own busness and allow everyone around them the freedom to think for themselves?

So they would be made free [b:9e4e8b3425]to reject[/b:9e4e8b3425], or accept, what he had to say.

So that after he taught it would all come down to a matter of being an issue between the believer and the LORD in the freedom to decide what they wish to believe!

[b:9e4e8b3425]He said many times that he was not the right teacher for everyone who listened to him.[/b:9e4e8b3425] You missed that teaching? He used to say if he was not right for you, do not waste your time sitting in the pew. That you were to get yourself up and find a church where you could feel you belong. How come you never heard that said? He said it often enough. And? Its on tape! :D

"I do not like the man!" Therefore! He's a cult!?

You know what? Look at this link.

[www.lookinguntojesus.net]

Everyone is a cult. If you want him to be.

Wake up! GeneZ
[/url][/quote]

GeneZ:

You are becoming little more than a flamer here, and "flaming" is against the rules.

Last warning--you may be banned from this message board.

GeneZ- I don't know if it's a cult. I'm just here chatting about how it created distress and conflict in my life for many, many years. You don't have to agree with me. But you aren't positively influencing me with your hyper-defensive arguments and emotional ranting.

Don't get yourself in a dither over this. It's just chatting. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. Cool. We're free to do that.

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rrmoderator
GeneZ:

You are becoming little more than a flamer here, and "flaming" is against the rules.

Last warning--you may be banned from this message board.

Sorry if I come across that way.

I had been reading throughout this thread (designed and intended to expose cults) that RB Thieme is a cult ministry. My intention was to point out some fallacies I ead with counters to what is misunderstood. The complaints I read happens throughout Christianity when some pastor upsets a believer. It happens more often than realized. It does not reveal anything to do with being a cult.

My intent was to take some of the reasons given to make RBT ministries out to be a cult, and to show it has nothing to do with what a cult really does. If anything. Its teachings are a reversal of what cults do.

A some here have been airing personal gripes as if they were universal. Even Billy Graham has some who see him as being from the devil. That was my purpose in what I said.

From here on in I will make a conscious attempt to soften up my tone.

In Christ, GeneZ

Genez does not understand what a cult is. No one in a cult believes they are in a cult. Genez, if you want to get dusted properly, why don't you try to say something about my posts on this website. You'll lose.

Thieme was/is a cult leader. Berachah is a cult.

What's the matter you can't handle people speaking the truth about how they think and feel about Thieme? Why are you here anyhow? Why don't you take your empty bitterness with you and go into a trance with a Thieme tape?

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Truthtesty
Genez does not understand what a cult is. No one in a cult believes they are in a cult. Genez, if you want to get dusted properly, why don't you try to say something about my posts on this website. You'll lose.

Thieme was/is a cult leader. Berachah is a cult.

What's the matter you can't handle people speaking the truth about how they think and feel about Thieme? Why are you here anyhow? Why don't you take your empty bitterness with you and go into a trance with a Thieme tape?

Who are you sir? What are your qualifications?

Trance? Empty bitterness? Hardly.

Which shows how you quickly accuse what you do not know anything about. You do not know me. In your mind you already think you do.

I can easily understand why you would think RB Thieme ministries is a cult. Just like you think you know who and what I am.

I was just warned about flaming. Have you ever been warned?

In Christ, GeneZ

There is a lot of work to be done on Genez. I don't have time but just to get started

Happy stated and Genez Quoted:
I think people blindly follow him.

Genez stated: Yes! Some do.

Genez stated: But does that make him a cult?

Genez stated: They would have followed someone else blindly because that is what they are as people! Thieme used to do things to chase these kinds off. He knew it was no good, too. Wake up!

Truthtesty states: This is typical statement of any abusive system which "blames the victim" instead of putting blame on Thieme's false teachings and opinions- WHERE IT BELONGS! Thieme didn't chase these types off. These types are what Thieme wanted. Thieme chased off those who thought for themselves.

Truthtesty states: Most blindly follow Thieme, not just some. Blindly following a self-appointed leader is a cult characteristic. If you submit unquestioningly to the authority of a self-appointed leader - which is what Thieme taught - then you are blindly following. This was a filtering process like any cult, to weed out those who would submit unquestioningly and chase off those who think for themselves.

Contrary to what genez says, these submissive followers are exactly what Thieme wanted. If Thieme wanted to appear as "normal christian" which genez is trying to pass Thieme off as, then Thieme should have acted like a "normal christian", but he isn't normal. Thieme is sick, unhealthy, and abnormal and so are his cult following. Notice the cold agressive tone and pathetic attempt at being overbearing, genez came in here with, just like her leader.

Happy and others are awake that's why they are questioning Thieme.

Truthtesty

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Truthtesty

Genez stated: They would have followed someone else blindly because that is what they are as people! Thieme used to do things to chase these kinds off. He knew it was no good, too. Wake up!

Truthtesty states: This is typical statement of any abusive system which "blames the victim" instead of putting blame on Thieme's false teachings and opinions- WHERE IT BELONGS! Thieme didn't chase these types off. These types are what Thieme wanted. Thieme chased off those who thought for themselves.

TT? I have been a believer for many years. Probably, by the sounds of things, as many as you have been born. I have seen many things over the years. There is always an element in every church where some do not want to think. They follow blindly. That is just a principle I laid down which is true. They only become victims when those who can think for themselves are excluded from the congregation. If you only knew of those who did listen to the messages, you would soon be silenced.

Some used to complain about how he went into detail about the Hebrew and Greek texts. He had to explain how throughtout the nation many pastors used his messages for study, and he needed to justify his translation by doing that. It true. Many pastors listened to his tapes for study helps and for their own edification. I have had had contact with some. They too were able to understand the Hebrew and Greek. These were not your [i:db1f256114] "God told me to open my mouth and teach"[/i:db1f256114] types. They did their homework.

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If Thieme wanted to appear as "normal christian" which genez is trying to pass Thieme off as, then Thieme should have acted like a "normal christian", but he isn't normal.

He was not normal. It took a Professor of Ancient Languages Harvard, Professor Stan Ashby, to recommend him to me. I think Professor Ashby was qualified to determine if Thieme's teaching was faked, or genuine. I used to have to resort to the likes of F.F. Bruce, Kittle, and many others to dtermine if what Thieme was saying could be verified. I was shocked quite often to see what Thieme was saying was already known, but seldom taught.

One pastor I knew had listened to some tapes I gave him to evaluate. He was shocked not only how good the teaching was. But, most of all, that the people wanted the teaching! Most pastors would be rejected by congregations if they tried to teach on that level. You seem to miss this. Wnat to quote works of others to refute Thieme? Are you qualified to verify what they say is true? Or, do you just like the fact that they dislike whom you dislike? Pastor Ralph G. Braun, DTS, DD.... once told me very few are qualified to evaluate RBT. Very few. Yet? You are sure his critics are correct? Professor of ANCIENT LANGUAGES HARVARD, Stan Ashby, knows less than you do? I think not.

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Thieme is sick, unhealthy, and abnormal and so are his cult following. Notice the cold agressive tone and pathetic attempt at being overbearing, genez came in here with, just like her leader.

:roll: You only are seeing what you want to see. Anyone who knows me and saw what you just wrote would be making the face I just posted.

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Happy and others are awake that's why they are questioning Thieme.

He is not understood by the likes of you. I understand that.

He also admitted openly that he had a personality that many would not like. Openly ( its recorded) he said he could not understand why God chose him to teach with his kind of personality. He was a retired WWll Colonel who was destined to become a General if he did not retire to attend seminary. He was also close friends with Senator Barry Goldwater. Very close friend. Barry Goldwater thought like a fool? He was Reagan's mentor. Bad company, this guy Thieme kept? Dumb sheep? I think you do not know whom it is you are attacking. At one conference a high ranking officer who worked in the Pentagon in a classified section opened the service in prayer. Very smart people listened to Thieme. People who you dare not tell how to think if they did not agree. Special forces. Navy Seals. Very intelligent independent minded people.


If you can not understand all the technicalities of Wall's work? You have no right to say he is correct in what he claims.

And? When Wall, does? Since when does disagreeing on another's teaching constitute a cult?

Thieme never forced others to conform to his teaching. Cults, do. The only people he did actively keep out of his congregation? Gossips and the maligners of others. Also, Anti-semites were not welcomed. And, those who were hyper spiritual and would shout out during a service/ Other than those? Those who attacked the privacy and freedom of the believer were not welcome. Everyone else was free to stay, [b:db1f256114]or leave.[/b:db1f256114]

No one new was asked to stand up at servive and handed membership cards, so they could know where you lived. Cult? That is not how a cult functions. Giving total anonymity and privacy to the listener? I found it quite refreshing.

Cults do not give you the freedom to think for yourself. Its mind control. Everyone knows everyone elses business. And, it was [b:db1f256114]those who were that way [/b:db1f256114]that he would have kicked out if they were found out. Gossips and maligners were removed from the congregation to protect the peace and quite of those who wanted to concentrate on learning God's Word.

Thieme was right. There are many things in the Bible that one can not begin to understand by reading for oneself. Yet, he said after you mature and learn what is needed, [b:db1f256114]then one can begin to read it for themself with better understanding.[/b:db1f256114] That part you left out.

I think you may need a new category to classify Thieme's ministry with. If its something bad to you? Cult would not be the proper heading. Not with how the word is used today. The first Church was classified as a cult in Rome.

In Christ, GeneZ[/quote]