Quote
zeebrook
.... That other gifted people did not speak at Berachah could be better answered by others who attended far longer than I did.…

Again no snowjob. Again that's what your trying to passoff here. No other people were allowed to speak except Buddy Dano who was Thieme's clone backup speaker. PERIOD.

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 02:16PM by Truthtesty.

Quote
zeebrook

Your statement about my supposed “use of flowery academic terms” is laughable. No flowery terms used by me, just straight from the Greek text to you, or from any text book accessible to most believers whom are interested in studying the scriptures. So move on from pejorative remarks (oops, is that a flowery academic term or just English).

Oh you want to laugh? Your academic pretense is laughable. "Just straight from the greek text to" me? Try pseustes. What greek computer software did you buy? Greek geek 2.0?

Truthtesty



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 02:45PM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Here's another quote in appendix A of Thieme's booklet doctrine of divine essence

Quote
Thieme
We adjust to G-ds infinite, immutable, ceaselessly active authority by adjusting to the right pastorteacher's authority."

Notice here Thieme falsely equates his authority with the authority of G-d. CULT.

Thieme did not have the sophistication of intelligence to distinguish between G-d's perfect authority and Thieme's corrupt authority. There is no perfect peitharcheo in christian circles between christians, only between all christians directly to G-d.

The pastor/ teacher gifts are not necessarily combined and in any case are just other fellow gifts in the body of Jesus that submit one unto another.

There is no ruling office authority for the gifts of pastor and or teacher.

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 03:34PM by Truthtesty.

At the risk of being censored by the moderator here goes. I thought you were not supposed to attack a person on this site. A certain person has now called be a "liar" and that totally without justification. Just in case you missed it pseustes means "liar". No one on this site knows or has requested my academic credentials so to make such an attack is against the spirit of the site. As to Greek software I do not require it. Just seminary training in Greek (Koine), Hebrew (Classical) and a smattering of Latin. Ad hominem arguments (i.e. attacking the person) is the last bastion of desperation.

Back to the issue you still have not cited any evidence that Thieme and Thiemeites believe that a human being activates the Holy Spirit. Apart from your preconceived inferences and verbose statements. On the contrary Thieme does say,
"The believer understands Bible doctrine (“the things of God”) on a non-meritorious base through the ministry of the Spirit…What causes the human system of perspicacity to function? Human IQ. What activates the grace system? The ministry of the Holy Spirit through the filling of the Spirit! (Grace Apparatus for Perception, p6).
Thieme never, to my knowledge, nor any Thiemeites I know, ever considered that a human being activates the Holy Spirit. They always have emphasised the filling of the Spirit as being required to learn and this is confirmed by confession of sin. Never that a human being activates the Holy Spirit. So you need to provide evidence that Thieme ever stated the concept of the human activation of the Holy Spirit. Put up or .......

Yes Thieme did state believers are to be under a pastor-teacher whether in person or via tapes, but also books. I do not agree with that statement but do believe that believes should be in a church fellowship (cf Hebrews 10:25). However just because Thieme said you should be does not make it so. The believer who does not sit under a pastor-teacher still can learn from the Word of God for indeed it is the instructing ministry of the Holy Spirit that teaches them. The believer's responsibility who does sit under a pastor-teacher is to confirm the teaching is scriptural and comparing scripture with scripture comes to a knowledge of the truth.

Whilst some disdain the idea of an authority in a local church, one has to face the facts that there are those who rule in a local church, those who take responsibility for it to which other members submit.
"The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." (1 Timothy 5:17). So an elder is one who is to rule (proistemi perfect active participle be at the head, rule).
" Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17). The call is to obey and submit to your leaders (hegomai articular present middle participle lead, guide)
" "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28). The Holy Spirit appointed "overseers" to the church (episkopos overseer, guardian, supervisor)

Do any of these inhibit a believers ability to learn the word of God? No way. But the pastor-teacher, teacher do have the responsibility for teaching the word to those they oversee (cf 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:7 to name a few).

Quote
zeebrook
Back to the issue you still have not cited any evidence that Thieme and Thiemeites believe that a human being activates the Holy Spirit. Apart from your preconceived inferences and verbose statements. On the contrary Thieme does say,
"The believer understands Bible doctrine (“the things of God”) on a non-meritorious base through the ministry of the Spirit…What causes the human system of perspicacity to function? Human IQ. What activates the grace system? The ministry of the Holy Spirit through the filling of the Spirit! (Grace Apparatus for Perception, p6).
Thieme never, to my knowledge, nor any Thiemeites I know, ever considered that a human being activates the Holy Spirit. They always have emphasised the filling of the Spirit as being required to learn and this is confirmed by confession of sin. Never that a human being activates the Holy Spirit. So you need to provide evidence that Thieme ever stated the concept of the human activation of the Holy Spirit. Put up or .......

Yes Thieme did state believers are to be under a pastor-teacher whether in person or via tapes, but also books. I do not agree with that statement but do believe that believes should be in a church fellowship (cf Hebrews 10:25)..."

zeebrook's strawman argument against me begin's with zeebrook's distortion and misquoting my original statement:

My original statement:

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:

There is no need to submit to the corrupt authority of any christian to "activate" the Holy Spirit in either case: one, to let a person "hear" the gospel for the first time, or two, for the christian to "hear" teachings of Holy Spirit.

[forum.culteducation.com]


zeebrook's lie of my original statement

Quote
zeebrook
Nice snow job. No where have you backed up your statement that Thieme or Thiemeites say that the "Holy Spirit is activated by any human being".

[forum.culteducation.com]

Does everyone see the difference in the quoted material above? And zeebrook's error?

According to Thieme, for the christian to be taught it required both conditions: confession of sins for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and submission to Thieme's false authority as a reich pastor ( falsely equating Thieme's authority with G-d's authority and submitting to that.)

Not one without the other.

According to Thieme, both conditions were necessary to learn Bible doctrine. According to Thieme, once the confessed christian submitted to Thieme's false authority (falsely equated to G-d's authority

Quote
Thieme
We adjust to G-ds infinite, immutable, ceaselessly active authority by adjusting to the right pastorteacher's authority."

), then BOTH conditions were met where THEN the Holy Spirit was "activated" to co-teach Bible Doctrine with Thieme.

Would zeebrook dare to argue that according to Thieme that both conditions were not necessary to learn Bible doctrine? That would be foolish. That was my original point. Also as a sidepoint would zeebrook dare to argue that confessing of sins did not activate the Holy Spirit's ministry(Thieme taught that)?

To Thieme to learn Bible doctrine it required both the Holy Spirit's ministry (filling of the Holy Spirit), but it also REQUIRED submission to the authority of a right pastor:

Quote
Thieme
"You cannot learn doctrine apart from the one who has the gift of pastor-teacher and therefore the authority. As long as you live you will be dependent on your right pastor, the final authority in the local church. Since you cannot feed yourself, you must go to the place where there is authority — a pastor-teacher communicating to a congregation."

It says right there

Quote
Thieme
"You cannot learn doctrine apart from the one who has the gift of pastor-teacher and therefore the authority...

Why is that so difficult for zeebrook to understand that one part of the condition is not met? Then once both conditions are met "co-activated" to teach Bible doctrine to the confessed christian. According to Thieme the Holy Spirit could not teach the confessed christian Bible Doctrine unless the confessed christian submitted to Thieme's authority at Berachah ( or submitted to Thieme while listening to a taperecorder or reading a booklet...).

My original statement:

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:

There is no need to submit to the corrupt authority of any christian to "activate" the Holy Spirit in either case: one, to let a person "hear" the gospel for the first time, or two, for the christian to "hear" teachings of Holy Spirit.

[forum.culteducation.com] ,
is true.

There is no gift or gifts given a higher authority than any other gift.

This being a cult forum, it quite obvious how difficult it was for a suckered thiemite to make a decision that Thieme was "wrong" in any way(ie. wrong pastor for them. ok then where is the "right" pastor, which no one else taught?), because Thieme was "right pastor" who had falsely equated his authority to G-d's authority.

Saying Thieme was wrong for them was like saying G-d was wrong for them, because Thieme made such ridiculous claims of falsely equating his authority with G-d's authority".

Truthtesty



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2011 04:26AM by Truthtesty.

Quote
zeebrook
...
Yes Thieme did state believers are to be under a pastor-teacher whether in person or via tapes, but also books. I do not agree with that statement but do believe that believes should be in a church fellowship (cf Hebrews 10:25). However just because Thieme said you should be does not make it so. The believer who does not sit under a pastor-teacher still can learn from the Word of God for indeed it is the instructing ministry of the Holy Spirit that teaches them. The believer's responsibility who does sit under a pastor-teacher is to confirm the teaching is scriptural and comparing scripture with scripture comes to a knowledge of the truth.

Whilst some disdain the idea of an authority in a local church, one has to face the facts that there are those who rule in a local church, those who take responsibility for it to which other members submit.
"The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." (1 Timothy 5:17). So an elder is one who is to rule (proistemi perfect active participle be at the head, rule).
" Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17). The call is to obey and submit to your leaders (hegomai articular present middle participle lead, guide)
" "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28). The Holy Spirit appointed "overseers" to the church (episkopos overseer, guardian, supervisor)

Do any of these inhibit a believers ability to learn the word of God? No way. But the pastor-teacher, teacher do have the responsibility for teaching the word to those they oversee (cf 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:7 to name a few).

The concept of leaders politically controlling the masses through thier beliefs is probably before prechristian pagan era. It has been here since the beginning of time. In Rome, when Romans conquered foreign lands, the conquered people confessed the belief of the Roman Caeser or they were executed. The Roman Caeser Constantine worshipped the sun for example. King Henry VIII had his own bible written because the pope in Italy would not grant him a divorce. King James owned the very clothes of every person in his kingdom why not rule thier beliefs as well by translations of the Bible(Why not Catholics of Spain did)? Today we see extremist neoconservatives cults(ie Thieme jr) inside the United States who have translated thier political views as G-d's Word and to falsely control christians belief systems with extremist authoritarian translations for corporate paramilitary imperial political domination in the USA and to act out corporate domination throughout the world(berachah cult being the model to force on the world as Spain forced catholicism into the Americas). In Iraq Bibles were handed out by the U.S. military. In any case, these translators throughout history have forced a gentile authority system onto the "translations" for the political control of the people. This translates into power. On a small scale it works like this "I know G-d's word I am special translator(s) and the translation says give me your money, or love Caeser, or love King James, or love Hitler (Nazi government church in Germany), or vote rich neoconservative capitalism etc... Therefore my disdain is for lies about the truth, used by those who would cheat the honest and faithful christian or the unbeliever out of the truth. The cult method used for stealing false obedience is to say "G-d said obey me." So when modern day christians try to force a gentile authority system onto the true teachings of Jesus they are lying as crooked people have since the beginning of time. For example when Jesus says Luke 22:27 "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth." When Jesus himself says that he SERVES, How can any true christian translate that they should have any gentile ruling authority inside in a body of believers?

The false sick ruling gentile authority heirarchy forced into translations of Hebrews or anywhere else must take into consideration the teachings of Jesus, ie Mark 10:42"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister("servant" in greek [interlinearbible.org] ) [interlinearbible.org]

That is Jesus' concept. So every other translation of ruler or obey or authority, in christian circles, must reflect and understand that it is not a gentile authority heirarchy peitharcheo of obeying of christians ruling the property of G-d. Even elders within a church may be more experienced but it is still submitting one unto another. The Holy Spirit moves according to the Will of G-d, not according to a seminary degree. The Holy Spirit doesn't dispense gifts of pastor or teacher based on a seminary degree.

Also every translation must be balanced with II Corinthians 1:24 "Not that we lord it over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, because by faith you stand firm [interlinearbible.org]

Every concept of christian leading or guiding in Hebrews 13:7, 17, 24 or anywhere else must conform to the concept that the leading is not a gentile heirarchial ruling over other christians that must be submitted to. The leading is a guiding of a fellow worker for your joy.

So there is no "sitting under a pastor" as Thieme and zeebrook describe it.

There is a "fellow worker(s)" in the local church for your joy but you do not "sit under" him, nor they sit under you.

Does a false gentile authority heirarchy in christian circles inhibit the christian's faith? Yes, it does so because it is corrupt. There is only one Lord. Everyone else(including shepards and overseers) are a fellowworker submitting one unto another, exercising thier gift(s) in truth, in the Body of Jesus, by faith.

Any pastor and or teacher or anyone else in front of G-d's property should turn his/her body/back to the congregation in prayer and worship the Cross behind him in reverence for Jesus, to signify it is "Not I, but Christ."

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2011 07:37AM by Truthtesty.

Quote
zeebrook
...
Whilst some disdain the idea of an authority in a local church, one has to face the facts that there are those who rule in a local church, those who take responsibility for it to which other members submit.
"The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." (1 Timothy 5:17). So an elder is one who is to rule (proistemi perfect active participle be at the head, rule).
" Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17). The call is to obey and submit to your leaders (hegomai articular present middle participle lead, guide)
" "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28). The Holy Spirit appointed "overseers" to the church (episkopos overseer, guardian, supervisor)

Do any of these inhibit a believers ability to learn the word of God? No way. But the pastor-teacher, teacher do have the responsibility for teaching the word to those they oversee (cf 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:7 to name a few).

zeebrook is still trying to coerce people into a false gentile authority one eay submission. Jesus did not teach that. There is no "call" to obey and submit to christian leaders in a one way submission.

No where does it equate to a one way submission to them or thier authority. It is pathetic to on the one hand quote KJV when it suits extremist authority, but what of the greek?

In I Timothy 5:17 the greek "the elders who take the lead well..." [interlinearbible.org] not rule as KJV translates for political control of England, but translate consistent with the teachings of Jesus. The elders are taking the lead in being examples of truths of Jesus. The peitharchaeo obeying of authority is still directly to G-d while, all those guiding elders are to persuade other christians peithesthe are still to submit one unto another. Those elders are still fellow workers for you joy.

The same follows with Hebrew 13. It is those who have taken the lead in being examples of the truths of Jesus that are to persuade the readers. Who some of the readers wete the best ecamples of the truths of Jesus. The submission is both ways. I have already written some on Hebrews 13:17 before. "In Hebrews 13:17 What is significant about peitho (peithesthe) is that it is not peitharcheo "to obey one in authority"

Quote
Truthtesty
To the Forum:

In Hebrews 13:17 What is significant about peitho (peithesthe) is that it is not peitharcheo "to obey one in authority"

What is also significant about peitho (peithesthe) is that it is not in the active voice. Peitho is in the passive or middle voice(determined by context). If peitho were in the active voice then the writer would be commanding the readers to actively involve themselves in the act of obedience. But instead of that, the writer is using the passive voice to suggest that the readers were being persuaded by those leading.

I submit that all the christians were to both lead and to submit one unto another.

Ephesians 5:21 subjecting yourselves to one another in the fear of God.

All Christians (including elders) are to submit one unto all other christians. (not gentile lording it over)

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not that we lord it over your faith but fellow workers are of the joy of you in the indeed faith you stand firm

Not lording it over (as gentile authority structure does).

Countless times I have proven by showing clear biblical evidence that Jesus' authority structure is not a gentile "lord it over" authority structure. Neither does it follow, that anyone charged with a responsibility of truthing before the "property of G-d", that they should be in a gentile authority ownership of the property of G-d. This is a consistent concept. I have no agenda except the truth.

Those before you in truth simply could have the truth while a moment before you had the truth before them. Ephesians 4:12-16 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

"Not I, but Christ".

Truthtesty

[forum.culteducation.com]

So for a consistent tramslation of scripture, all scripture needs to be taken into account.


Truthtesty



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2011 11:54AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

There are 7 verses which use kurieuo [www.biblestudytools.com] . In particular I contrast and compare 2 Cor. 1:24 with Luke 22:25
Which shows a direct contradiction of Thieme's false claim of having spiritual authority over your faith. There is no "military chain of command" and no "lord it over" authority of a pastor or a teacher between the believer and God.

2 Corinthians 1:24 - Not that we lord it(kurieuo) over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.

The NAS Strong's Version
[www.biblestudytools.com]

The same greek word kurieu is used in Luke 22:25

Lu 22:25 -  And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it(kurieuo) over them; and those who have authority over them are called'Benefactors.' 26 "But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.

[www.biblestudytools.com]

That was Jesus' authority structure among the apostles And? Lord Jesus was among the apostles as one who served. So remember just how foolish it is to espouse a translation that would call any christian regardless of gift a "ruler" over other christians.


Truthtesty

To the Forum:


Part of HERMENEUTICS is comparing scripture with scripture. Someone who really had a seminary degree would know that. And if thier intentions were honest they'd acknowledge the value of it.

The gifts of pastor and or teacher are given too much weight by thiemites(to the cult extreme), as opposed to love(logical scriptural evaluation or even common sense). The emphasis should be on love not gifts of the body, such as knowledge from a teacher. In the passage on gifts in 1 Corinthians 1 Cor. 13:8Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Also,

Thieme quote in appendix A of Thieme's booklet doctrine of divine essence

Quote
Thieme
We adjust to G-ds infinite, immutable, ceaselessly active authority by adjusting to the right pastorteacher's authority."

Notice here in Thieme's cult statement, Thieme falsely equates his authority with the authority of G-d. CULT. No where does scripture say that. Thieme does not intercede for christians the Holy Spirit adjusts for us to will of G-d.

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Vol. 7, Page 201
"Intercession contemplates the ministry of one who stands between God and some great need, as in the case of Abraham interceding for the cities of the Jordan plain. Rightfully it is said in Romans of all praying: “We know not what we should pray for as we ought,” when so much is involved in God’s purpose and plan for each human life. Only “Thy will be done” (Matt. 6:10) can be the final attitude of all who intercede. The Christian cannot himself know the scope and force of prayer; however, in this respect God makes provision. The one central passage on intercession (Romans 8:26–27), therefore, reads: “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”. The Spirit knows omnisciently (cf. 1 Cor. 2:10–11), then, and God who searches the heart knows the mind and language of the Spirit. This portion of Romans is a peculiar passage in that it records communication between the Father and the Spirit. Prayer in all its forms has adequate enablement. It is to be offered to the Father (Matt. 6:9), in the name of the Son (John 16:23–24), and in the power of the Spirit’s enablement (cf. Eph. 6:18; Jude 1:20).

Quote
Thieme
"To submit to the authority of God demands entrance into certain grace functions: the filling of the Spirit, the intake of Bible doctrine, submission to the pastor-teacher. God has designed a grace system for transmission of doctrine from the canon of Scripture into your soul. It is only doctrine in your soul which is usable; and this, of course, is the basis for the power and function of the Christian way of life.... You cannot learn doctrine apart from the one who has the gift of pastor-teacher and therefore the authority. As long as you live you will be dependent on your right pastor, the final authority in the local church. Since you cannot feed yourself, you must go to the place where there is authority — a pastor-teacher communicating to a congregation."

This is false. A right pastor is not a part of the submission to the perfect authority of G-d. The christian has direct access to submitting to G-d's will, without being corrupted by submitting to a corrupt christian's corrupt authority.

CULT

Thieme falsely equates his authority as intercessory and equal to God's authority, when the Holy Spirit intercedes for christian's to adjust to G-d's will. Also, 3 more cult characteristics are 1)Thieme culticly declaring that a right pastor is the final unquestionable authority in the local indoctrination camp and 2)Thieme demanding a one way submission to his authority. 3) And as shown before 1John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.The one way submission to Thieme is cultic and not necessary to learn all things.


Truthtesty



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2011 09:19AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Dallas Burdette "Obey them that have rule over you"

Why do leaders advance this erroneous view? There is just one answer—tradition. This section of this essay seeks to analyze the phrase—“rule over you” in its biblical setting in order to help godly leaders come to a more balanced and correct view of their positions as shepherds. As stated above, the KJV renders the Greek word ... hegoumenois (“leading ones”) as “rule over you.” It is significant that the author of Hebrews did not employ the noun ... exousia (“authority”), the noun ... archon (“ruler”), the verb ... archo (“rule”), the verb ... katakurieuo (“lord it over”), nor the verb ... katexousiazo (“exercise authority over”). These words are conspicuously absent in Hebrews 13:17. The word hegoumenois is from the Greek word ... hegeomai, which means “to lead” or “to guide.”

"Elders" are technically not referred to in Heb. 13:17.

Also the greek word hupeiko is used only one time in the entire New Testament in Heb. 13:17. That seems significant.

<1,,5226,hupeiko>
"to retire, withdraw" (hupo, under, eiko, "to yield"), hence, "to yield, submit," is used metaphorically in Heb. 13:17, of "submitting" to spiritual guides in the churches.

See Vines online "submit" [www2.mf.no]

I submit that the readers of Hebrews 13:17 were the leaders, depending on the Holy Spirits empowerment , but that this is everyone leading according to thier function in the Body of Jesus.

Eph. 5:21 "submit one unto another".

Eph. 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

The whole body edifies itself with ALL the gifts, not just one.

Truthtesty



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2011 10:31AM by Truthtesty.