To the Forum:

There is no need to submit to the corrupt authority of any christian to "activate" the Holy Spirit in either case: one, to let a person "hear" the gospel for the first time, or two, for the christian to "hear" teachings of Holy Spirit.

A translation of Hebrews 13:17 more consistent with other scriptures:
Be persuaded by those guiding you, and be yielding; for for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them watch over you with joy and not with grumbling, for this would be unprofitable for you.
[m.youversion.com]

Note also look at the word peitho [concordances.org] . It is persude, not coerce. Look at the english difference between persuasion and coercion.

In systematic theology (and common sense) all scripture must "fit" with other scripture. So compare Hebrews 13:7,17 with 2 Corinthians 1:24. clearly states "Not that we lord it over..."

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not that we lord it over your faith but fellow workers are of the joy of you in the indeed faith you stand firm [interlinearbible.org] 2 Corinthians 1:24 is consistent with what Jesus taught in Matthew 20:25 and Mark 10:42

Those leading do not lord it over as in gentile authority structure. The christian stands firm in thier personal faith, not in a coerced gentile corrupt submission to another corrupt christian's false authority.

The Lord Jesus submitted unto human death, and it is arrogant, false, and superficial to suggest that a corrupt christian could have more authority than Jesus, that a christian would need to submit to BEFORE SUBMITTING TO JESUS OR AT THE SAME TIME OF SUBMITTING TO JESUS.

It is the G-d who ultimately "teaches" and "persuades" in every case, to the christian yielded to G-d, not corrupt man.

Truthtesty



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2011 05:29AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

In summary, here are few previous links confronting the false authority/submission concept of elders (pastors and teachers etc...), used by those (past and present) who have and will endanger(ed) christians.


[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2011 11:57PM by Truthtesty.

One needs to honestly translate the scriptures and not utilise a paraphrase simply because it helps your case. Hebrews 13:17 being a case in point.
"Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you." (Heb 13:17 NAS)

The word translated "obey" is a present passive imperative. The imperative is a command, the passive voice means
"be persuaded, be convinced, come to believe, believe" hence the individual is "persuaded by" or "convinced" by their leaders. "leaders" is the articular present middle participle meaning "the ones leading". The the individual is to be "persuaded, convinced" by the ones leading them. The response of the believer is given through the copulative "and" with the present active imperative of the word "submit" (hupeiko). The meaning is "yield, submit". But note it is an active imperative meaning the believer is to deliberately submit to the leader who is to convince them. So the verse measns that the individual is to be convniced by their leaders and submit themselves to them.

The word "submit" (hupeiko) is an imperative and cannot be translated as a participle "be yielding". It is a command to be submissive, to yield to your leaders. As a present active imperative it is a strong command to do this not a participle as though providing an option "be yielding".

The translations "obey" and "submit" are found in the NIV, NASB, ASV, RSV, ESV of Hebrews 13:17. The translations of words in a verse need to be aligned with the book in which they are found as a priority. Not transposed across books and authors. This is why the study of "Biblical Theology" precedes systematic theology.

No one believes that the Holy Spirit is activated by any human being. To make such a statement is to try and use a straw man argument i.e. make it and knock it down. My point being that to corrupt the scriptures by pretend translations to justify a point is what Thieme is often charged with. People who post here should not do the same.

One is required by Hebrews 13:17 to listen to the leaders, be convinced by them and respond by submitting. This of course comes about as one searches the scriptures and confirms the leader's teaching is correct.

To the Forum:

In Hebrews 13:17 What is significant about peitho (peithesthe) is that it is not peitharcheo "to obey one in authority"

What is also significant about peitho (peithesthe) is that it is not in the active voice. Peitho is in the passive or middle voice(determined by context). If peitho were in the active voice then the writer would be commanding the readers to actively involve themselves in the act of obedience. But instead of that, the writer is using the passive voice to suggest that the readers were being persuaded by those leading.

I submit that all the christians were to both lead and to submit one unto another.

Ephesians 5:21 subjecting yourselves to one another in the fear of God.

All Christians (including elders) are to submit one unto all other christians. (not gentile lording it over)

2 Corinthians 1:24 Not that we lord it over your faith but fellow workers are of the joy of you in the indeed faith you stand firm

Not lording it over (as gentile authority structure does).

Countless times I have proven by showing clear biblical evidence that Jesus' authority structure is not a gentile "lord it over" authority structure. Neither does it follow, that anyone charged with a responsibility of truthing before the "property of G-d", that they should be in a gentile authority ownership of the property of G-d. This is a consistent concept. I have no agenda except the truth.

Those before you in truth simply could have the truth while a moment before you had the truth before them. Ephesians 4:12-16 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

"Not I, but Christ".

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 09:57AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

No strawman, just the facts.

Quote
zeebrook
No one believes that the Holy Spirit is activated by any human being. To make such a statement is to try and use a straw man argument i.e. make it and knock it down. My point being that to corrupt the scriptures by pretend translations to justify a point is what Thieme is often charged with. People who post here should not do the same.

Unfortunately zeebrook is being dishonest again. Thieme regularly berated and insulted any christian who thought that they could read the bible alone with the Holy Spirit and without a pastor teacher, because as Thieme claimed (paraprasing) " ...they won't get anything out of it. Better come to class..."

Thiemites were told thier spiritual maturity (as oppossed to being spirtually disciplined which was the only alternative) relied on thier submssion to the authority of Thieme as thier so-called "pastor teacher". Thiemites were required to submit to Thieme's so-called authority as a so- called pastor teacher or otherwise face "spiritual discipline" if they rejected what Thieme "taught".

Thiemites were told in effect if they were going to " get anything out of the scriptures they needed to come to class" simply loving the word and the Lord alone was not enough. In effect thiemitee were told the Holy Spirit is not as effective or less activated to the point where you wont get much out of it, unless you submitted to Thieme's authority in "class"


Truthtesty



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2011 02:35PM by Truthtesty.

Quote
zeebrook
One is required by Hebrews 13:17 to listen to the leaders, be convinced by them and respond by submitting. This of course comes about as one searches the scriptures and confirms the leader's teaching is correct.

Here is a more excellent way. All christians are to submit one unto another as the Holy Spirit dictates the lead of a group of christians by the gifts of the Holy Spirit as all partake in turn accordingly. The thiemites would have you believe that there is only 1 gift of teacher that actually is necessary and you must "listen" to that teacher to grow. That is self centered folly. All christians are to grow as a group from being children into the head and knowledge of Jesus.

zeebrook is obviously lost in the 2 dimensional pipe view world of thiemepark where it was believed spiritual maturity was a gentile authority submission "listening" to "the colonel's" authority. In thiemepark there is only one spiritual gift and that is the pastor teacher(its actually 2 gifts pastors amd or teachers).

In any case thiemepark relegates any other gifts of the Holy Spirit as non essential or non existant.

However, 1 Cor. 12:7-11 states that thier are at least 7 spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit for all to grow into the head of the body, not just 2. Each gift doing thier own part in leading.

Thiemites should read all of 1 Cor. 12, but specifically 1 Cor.12: 29-31: 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


Truthtesty



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2011 03:49PM by Truthtesty.

the writer of Hebrews 13:17 did not use peitharcheo because to do so would introduce a redundancy. The writer astutely utilises peitho (present passive imperatitve) as a call to be convinced by "your leaders" (articular present middle participle), literally "the ones leading, guiding" you (plural of the personal pronoun). If the writer had used peitharcheo (used 4x in the NT) meaning "to obey an authority/power" it would become a redundancy by saying "submit to/obey authority the ones leading you etc". Given that the four occurrences of peitharcheo are used the of believer's obedience to authorities (Titus 3:1), to God (Acts 5:29, 32) and once of Paul noting that they did not follow his authority/advice (Acts 27:21) it would not suit the writer of Hebrew's purpose in Hebrews 13:17. So it does not follow that because peitharcheo was not used the verse is not calling believers to be convinced by their leaders.

The dishonest one is someone who says "the pastor teacher(its actually 2 gifts pastors amd or teachers).". Such an ex-cathedra proclamation is but a travesty of interpretation. No way can the Greek sustain a translation of "pastors or teachers".

The grammatical debate on Ephesians 4:11 relates to the application of the Granville Sharp rule to plural nouns in an articular construction with the copulative kai (and). The problem concerns the fact that the words "pastor and teachers" is subsumed under one definite article whereas the other gifts mentioned have their own individual definite articles. So we can definitely state that Ephesians 4:11 says "the apostles", "the prophets" and "the evangelists" (noting of course that the definite article is often not translated here and generally not so with abstract nouns). The problem for interpretation is that literally the Greek says "the pastors and teachers". No definite article with the word for "teacher". Both words and the definite article are masculine plurals. Hence one resorts to the Granville Sharp rule. Wallace (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics p284) whilst opting for the two gift approach does state that "most commentators have seen only one gift here" and in his opinion it is because they have "erroneously thought that the Granville Sharp rule absolutely applied to plural constructions". Wallace does state (p284) that "the uniting of these two groups by one article sets them apart from the other gifted leaders." Thus he acknowledges their is something different about this construction. His conclusion comes down on the side of "all pastors were to be teachers, though not all teachers were to be pastors" (p284)

Brooks and Wimbrey (Syntax of New Testament Greek p71) noting the application of the men...de clause in the verse shows that Ephesians 4:11 the definite articles may be translated as an "alternative pronoun" giving the translation "He gave some apostles, other prophets, others evangelists, others pastors and teachers". Thus uniting pastors and teachers under one gift compared to the "others". See also Turner (A Grammar of New Testament Greek: Volume III Syntax p36). Robertson (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament p694 notes that the use of men...de with the article shows that a contrast is meant, in this context the men is before apostles with the de before the other gifts indicating the apostles were unique compared to the other gifts mentioned.

Wall (A Critical Examination of the Teachings of Robert B. Thieme Jr...p225 of the original thesis) acknowledges the gift as "pastor-teacher" in his statement "the gift of pastor-teacher is an equipping gift" noted again on p231. He notes again "the gift of pastor-teacher" (p226) also notes the hyphenated one gift "pastor-teacher" on pages 228, 230.

My point at this juncture is to note that far from being settled their are many commentators and grammarians who consider that "pastors and teachers" in Ephesians 4:11 relate to the same person, compare Dana & Mantey A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (p147), or the one and same gift.

The Granville Sharp rule states that:
When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connection, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill,] if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle: i.e. it denotes farther description of the first-named person,

Ephesians 4:11 is a prime example of two nouns of the same case (pastors, teachers) joined by the copulative (and) with the first noun (pastors) having the article the second noun (teachers) does not and so ipso facto both nouns relate to the same person or description of the person.

So rather than make an ex cathedra statement like "its actually 2 gifts pastors amd or teachers" admit that it is eminently possible to translate the verse as so many commentators, grammarians and even Wall does as "pastor-teachers" meaning one gift or one person who has both gifts.

Does one's spiritual maturity rely on whether we have "pastors and teachers" or "pastor-teachers" or "pastors who function as teachers"? No it does not. It relies on the spiritual growth of the individual as they focus on the Lord and learn of His ways (cf Colossians 1:9-10)

No Thiemeite I have ever met has ever said that there is only one spiritual gift. Yet another straw man argument set up. No Thiemeite I have ever met relegated other spiritual gifts as non-essential or non-existent. Straw man argument yet again.

With respect to being called dishonest, or in fact being called "dishonest again" this is surely the case of the kettle calling the pot black. Distortion of translations is dishonest, pronouncements of interpretations that are but opinions is dishonest. To state that
"Unfortunately zeebrook is being dishonest again. Thieme regularly berated and insulted any christian who thought that they could read the bible alone with the Holy Spirit and without a pastor teacher, because as Thieme claimed (paraprasing) " ...they won't get anything out of it. Better come to class..."
is in itself a dishonest statement.
I have never stated that Thieme did not berate those who did not come to class so how can I be dishonest in that. My point was that "No one believes that the Holy Spirit is activated by any human being." I doubt event he staunchest Thiemeite would say that. The Holy Spirit is not governed by the individual apart from the obvious actions of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit.

The straw man argument raised is just that. Stick to the facts.

The berating of those who did not come to "class" indicating that alone they could not study the scriptures is out of line. The learning of spiritual things is a spiritual function (cf 1 Corinthians 2:14-16) yet we do need to take in the word of God (1 Peter 2:2) being equipped by pastors and teachers (Eph 4:11) who instruct in the principles of the Christian life (Hebrews 5:11-6:2) hence we submit to them (Hebrews 13:7, 17). But to make an equation that Thiemeites hold to an idea that the Holy Spirit is activated by a human being is dishonest and disingenuous.

Where Theimeites are in error is to assume that the human spirit is the repository of doctrine, or that the unbeliever does not have a human spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:11 makes it clear that everyone has a human spirit that discerns human phenomena ("For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?") whereas the Holy Spirit within the believer helps us to comprehend the spiritual issues (1 Corinthians 2:12).

To the Forum:

Quote
zeebrook
the writer of Hebrews 13:17 did not use peitharcheo because to do so would introduce a redundancy. The writer astutely utilises peitho (present passive imperatitve) as a call to be convinced by "your leaders" (articular present middle participle), literally "the ones leading, guiding" you (plural of the personal pronoun). If the writer had used peitharcheo (used 4x in the NT) meaning "to obey an authority/power" it would become a redundancy by saying "submit to/obey authority the ones leading you etc". Given that the four occurrences of peitharcheo are used the of believer's obedience to authorities (Titus 3:1), to God (Acts 5:29, 32) and once of Paul noting that they did not follow his authority/advice (Acts 27:21) it would not suit the writer of Hebrew's purpose in Hebrews 13:17. So it does not follow that because peitharcheo was not used the verse is not calling believers to be convinced by their leaders.

Redundancy? Ridiculous. It does follow that in christian matters, there is no peitharcheo gentile ruling authority to submit to except to Jesus'/G-d's peitharcheo perfect authority. It would not have been a redundancy, because christians are to submit one unto another. The writer of Hebrews did not use peitharcheo because in christian circles it is NOT a gentile top down obedience to anyone in peitharcheo "ruling authority", except the perfect peitharcheo serving authority of Jesus.

<B-2,Verb,3982,peitho>
"to persuade, to win over," in the Passive and Middle Voices, "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey," is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts 5:36-37 (in Acts 5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom. 2:8; Gal. 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jas. 3:3. The "obedience" suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.

<B-3,Verb,3980,peitharcheo>
"to obey one in authority" (No. 2, and arche, "rule"), is translated "obey" in Acts 5:29,32; "to be obedient," Titus 3:1, RV (AV, "to obey magistrates"); in Acts 27:21, "hearkened." See HEARKEN

[www2.mf.no]

Acts 5:29 " Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey ( Peitharchein present infinitive active) God rather than men" [interlinearbible.org]

Acts 5:32 "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey ( peitharchousin present participle active dative masculine plural ) him. [interlinearbible.org]

In Acts 27:21 It relates specifically to Paul's perception of the danger of the ship sinking in Acts 27:10And said unto them, Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives" Paul was not speaking of christian message and that message not given to Paul by the Holy Spirit. Paul just perceived that the ship was probably going to sink. It did. The authority was of the reality that Paul was right. The ship sank. Paul was right. They should have listened to him. But it was peitharcheo, not peithesthe as used in Hebrews 13:17.

But even in G-d's perfect peitharcheo it is still a leading of the Holy Spirit. In Hebrews 13:17 Who were those in the lead guiding anyhow? Would you consider Jesus and the Holy Spirit a perfect leading guidance or just "sitting on the bench"?

Romans 8:14 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [biblos.com]

There is no peitharcheo leading by other christians in Romans 8:14. The perfect leading is by the Holy Spirit.

Galations 5:18 18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [interlinearbible.org]

Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit Matt. 4:1; Luke 4:1.

1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."


Truthtesty



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 02:27AM by Truthtesty.