To RecoveringChristian:

Thanks for sharing exactly the true effects of Thieme and his goon thiemites.

The cult of Thieme is completed when parents act as Thieme's lieutenants at home (or even when an individual is so coerced falsely to attack themself in Thieme's perversion of submission to Thieme's false authority). The false cult doctrine of "Right Pastor" is where the cult of Thieme begins.

There are many who had to throw "G-d" off completely to disassociate themselves from Thieme's false teachings, he who which Thieme falsely gives himself equal to "G-d"'s Word.

It's completely understandable.

Truthtesty

To the Forum:


I posted this in Janurary 2011 and zeebrook has never had a response to it.

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Truthtesty
To the Forum:

What do the Pauline epistles say in I Corinthians 15:17?:

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

That if Jesus was not raised after the death on the Cross then you are yet in your sins. That Jesus' Blood is a continually needed continuous process. That indicates that what was done by Jesus on the Cross was the beginning of the powerful and continuing process of defeating sin. That is obvious.

Truthtesty

[forum.culteducation.com]


That means if it were just the work before the Cross and up to the moment of the death of Jesus, then that was not sufficient without the moments after death and up to and include the Ressurection to not (quote paraphrasing the quote) "still be in your sins".

Truthesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2011 09:03AM by Truthtesty.

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zeebrook

The point being that unbelievers submit to the authority of an evangelist e.g Paul or John, to hear the gospel then they must search the scriptures to check the message (as did the Bereans acts 17:11) from which they by faith then believe in Christ for salvation. One would therefore consider that a believer in a fellowship must do the same. Submit to the authority of a Pastor (by this I mean give them a hearing cf Hebrews 13:7, 17) then check out what the Pastor has said against the scriptures (cf 1 John 4:1-3; Galatians 1:8-10). So the believer in a church is under the authority of a Pastor whilst hearing the preaching of the word (i.e. give them a hearing) but is not blindly to follow that teaching without checking it out by searching the scriptures. Thus when Thieme would state or imply that to question the Pastor was wrong he was wrong, it is incumbent upon all believers to do so. It is the responsibility of believers to do so. It is also the responsibility of Pastors to correctly teach (cf James 3:1)

The following zeebrook quote is a false gospel. No one submits to the authority of a corrupt christian to hear the gospel and to be saved. This is a thiemite falsehood carried out by zeebrook. That false hearing the gospel concept was bankrupt from the beggining. It limits the power of "G-d" to say that without submission to the cult authority of a corrupt christian which that cult authority is capable of giving "hearing" then the salvation work of Jesus' death and ressurection are null and void. And the Holy Spirit is just simply to powerless and weak "on vacation" to save mankind without submission to a corrupt christians cult authority. This is an obvious and ignorant distortion. Even Thieme unwittingly counteracted himself when he said that "unbelievers who never heard the gospel are saved". Now even according to Thieme's how would they be saved without first getting "hearing" by false cult authority then make a choce about the gospel to be saved? Jesus' salvation work is what saves persons not hearing the gospel, not "submitting to a corrupt christian first so they can then "hear" the gospel". Like the Holy Spirit is impotent. That "hearing" is not a gift of submission to a christian's corrupt authority, the "hearing" is by the Holy Spirit. Simple to understand for most, but not simple for those addicted authority perversion.

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zeebrook
The point being that unbelievers submit to the authority of an evangelist e.g Paul or John, to hear the gospel then they must search the scriptures to check the message (as did the Bereans acts 17:11) from which they by faith then believe in Christ for salvation..

As Thieme did, zeebrook confuses corrupt christians' authority with the all everpresent perfect authority of Jesus. There is never any need whatsoever to submit to corrupt christian man's authority.

Similar to Thieme's misunderstanding of the perfect authority of Jesus, zeebrook does not understand or is unwilling to admit to is "Not I, but Christ".

It is not "I" but Christ. It is the authority of Christ, never I. It is never "I" "me" "my" "we" "self righteous us" authority you must submit to for salvation or understanding the scrptures. The perfect authority of Jesus is not gentile authority chain of command. Neither are the gifts of the Spirit. It is not "Christ in me" you submit to. It is "christ in you" you submit to. Even Jesus who would be considered the highest authority from a gentile perspective "came to serve". "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth" Luke 22:27

In every case christians who have charge "lead" or "guide" at best, but do not have "rule over". And I submit that that charge and leading could change so that those who were leading are now being led.

I have been round and round with zeebrook and other thiemites on this false perverted authority issue. Sometimes people are just so corrupted by Thieme's perversion of authority they can't grasp this very basic simple concept or they falsely assume it is irrelevant and pretend it does no harm, or they know it is a corrupt sold out idea that has destroyed many christian's lives, but they have gained politically by gaining neocon zombies who vote "neocon nazi authority!" panacea in November, in a last measure of desperation of foolishness and collapse.


Truthtesty



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2011 10:11AM by Truthtesty.

Paul's argument in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 is that if Christ was still dead and therefore in the grave then no one could have confidence in Him for salvation. No one is saved. If no one is saved then everyone including the believer is still dead in their sins, hence there is no forgiveness, no eternal life. Note verse 18, "Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." Why have they perished? Only if, for the sake of argument Paul says, Christ is not raised meaning that there was no payment for sin on the cross, His death would be meaningless. This does not mean that the blood of Christ is a work begun and a continuing process (that is a catholic doctrine). Now note Paul's conclusion in verse 19 "If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied." This confirms Paul is putting up a debate for the sake of knocking it down. If Christ is not raised from the dead then we are all still in our sins and therefore with no salvation, no hope of eternal life we as believers are to be pitied of all people for having trusted Christ. Such is Paul's argument. QED.

It is imperative that when you study the scriptures you read the whole passage and understand the line of argumentation. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19 is using a logic argument known as a modus tollens (a method of denying). Paul is putting forward an arugment that since Christ was (emphatic) resurrected then there will be a resurrection of believers. He then argues from the negative side of the issue. Suppose Christ was not raised, then what does that mean? Paul says it means that then Christ did not die for our sins, no one is saved, there is no resurretion of believers, and thus no of us have any hope and most of all believers are to be pitied for having been deluded.

To construe this passage as an argument that it proves that Christ's death upon the cross was not sufficient to deal with sins but requires the blood to be a continuous process is not to understand the passage and to promote a gross error. Christ's death upon the cross was the full payment for sin not the beginning process.

Hebrews 10:12 "but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD".

To the Forum:


No where does Paul say in I Cr. 15 that:

Quote
zeebrook
... Christ is not raised meaning that there was no payment for sin on the cross, ...

Paul's hypothetical concept in I Cr. 15 is not whether or not Jesus died for sins on the Cross, but whether or not resurrection is a reality or not.

Note even though Paul is being hypothetical because Jesus died, buried and resurrected, Paul is still pointing to a hypothetical reality of that case if Jesus were not raised.

I Cr 15 is very clear and simple to understand.

Without taking anything out of context or adding to or detracting from the evidence in I Cr 15 says:

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.


Paul is not forgetting what he just stated in I Cr 15:3, 15,4 about Jesus dying for sins, being buried, and being resurrected. Paul does speak of resurrection in general and Jesus' resurrection. Paul freely admits that Jesus died, buried, and resurrected according to the scriptures and that if he had not resurrected ye are yet in your sins.

There was more to Jesus' sacrificial work (offerings) of the one sacrifice of himself (for sin) than the work (physical sufferings, shedding of Blood) up to and including the Death. (See Hebrews 9:11-27)

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,e then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctifyf for the purification of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify ourg conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.h 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” 21And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

23Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

"heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these" Note "heavenly things" and "sacrifices" are both plural.

I submit that the "Blood of Jesus" (the life thereof) continued after death to continue His work of himself in sacrifice.

Also after Resurrection the Bloood of Jesus continued I Cr. 15: 3-9:

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Truthtesty



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2011 03:43AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Also,the final penalty of sin (death) is destroyed after the 2nd judgement. Which has not occured yet. So "continuing process" of the "Blood of Jesus" as death is not defeated yet.

I Cr. 25-26: 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Truthtesty

To the Forum:

I also submit that Jesus in His physical Body with literal Blood (and the synecdoche Blood as life after death) was the "first fruits" of the defeating of death(penalty of sin) in the Resurrection.

Truthtesty

To the Forum:

Also note John 20:17 "17Jesus saith to her, `Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.'"

I submit that the Blood of Jesus(synecdoche) was Resurrected in every sense known and unknown including physically before acsension to the Father as a lamb without spot. Jesus states that he has not yet acsended to the Father. He died and was buried for 3 days then Resurrected as a pure "Lamb without spot. Note the emphasis on Jesus telling Mary to not touch him because he has not yet ascended to the Father. This is evidence that Jesus must be a lamb without spot [bible.cc] The sacrificial offering was not yet complete after the Resurrection and before the first ascension when Jesus was talking to Mary.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Then after the first ascension Jesus returned and it was then ok to touch Jesus:

John 20:27 " Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!”

Truthtesty



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2011 12:46AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

A few things here that thiemites have probably not heard before about John 20:17, but were taught by Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer(Thieme's teacher). There were 2 ascensions. Jesus completes the sacrifice by his ascension after Resurrection. The first day of Resurrection was a busy day. Here are a few excerpts from Dr. Chafer's Systematic Theology:

vol 4 p. 393

XVII. THE DAY OF PENTECOST
Pentecost is anticipated typically in the wave loaves of Leviticus 23:15–21. It should be noted that the wave loaves were presented exactly fifty days after the wave sheaf, which marks the precise period between the first ascension of Christ (John 20:17) and Pentecost. Thus by type, the Church—represented by the loaves—is seen to originate at Pentecost and not in the Old Testament or at the end of the period covered by the Acts. Direct prediction relative to Pentecost was uttered by Christ (John 14:16–17, 26; 15:26; 16:7–15). Naturally, no leaven—the symbol of evil—is found in the wave sheaf which previews Christ in His ascension; but leaven is found in the loaves, for, at best, believers are imperfect in themselves.

vol 7 p.19

ASCENSION
So much that is vital within the field of typology is involved in this specific feature of Christology that there is occasion for an individual doctrinal consideration of its character. While it may be true that during the forty days of His postresurrection ministry Christ moved back and forth freely between earth and heaven, it is of doctrinal importance and within the bounds of that which is written to recognize two ascensions—one directly following the resurrection and the other when He visibly departed on the clouds at the end of the forty days. Though no Scripture directly describes the first ascension, it is implied in the record of what Christ said to Mary in the early morning at the tomb, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” (John 20:17). That He ascended on this same day subsequent to the resurrection is evident, for He said unto His disciples at evening of that day, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see” (Luke 24:39).
In this first ascension which followed directly upon His resurrection, two important types were fulfilled. It would not have been reasonable for this twofold fulfillment to have been delayed until the end of the forty days on earth—especially as one of the types, that of the “wave sheaf,” represents Christ in resurrection. Of all the sheaves of grain on the hills of Palestine but one from each homestead was waved ceremonially before Jehovah, and that on the day following the Sabbath (cf. Lev. 23:11) and as a representation of all the sheaves of the harvest. Thus Christ when He ascended from the tomb appeared as an earnest of the mighty harvest of souls whom He had redeemed, who came with Him out of the tomb and who share His resurrection life and glory. He was thus the “firstfruits of them that slept,” a representation of that resurrection of believers that is yet to be (cf. 1 Cor. 15:20–23).
The other type which Christ fulfilled in connection with His first ascension was that of the high priest presenting the blood in the holy of holies on the Day of Atonement. Thus Christ the true High Priest presented His own blood and the acceptance of that sacrifice for sinners answers every need of the sinner forever. The importance of the presentation in heaven of the emblem of His finished work in redemption, reconciliation, and propitiation cannot be estimated nor should it be slighted.At His second ascension, which occurred at the end of His postresurrection ministry of forty days, Christ was seen returning on the clouds of heaven. He then undertook His present session at the Father’s right hand, and with it the far-reaching ministries which continue throughout this age and which provide all security for those who are saved. It was then that He became “Head over all things to the church” (Eph. 1:21–22), the Bestower of gifts (Eph. 4:7–11). He took up the twofold, priestly ministries of intercession (Rom. 8:34; Heb 7:25) and advocacy (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 9:24; 1 John 2:1).

vol 5 p 262

The doctrine of an immediate ascension appears when two passages of Scripture are compared. It is recorded that when Christ came out of the tomb He was met by Mary, who in ecstatic devotion would have embraced His feet and held her Lord. Christ’s loving declaration to her was, “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God” (John 20:17). Yet in Luke’s account of the resurrection it is asserted that the same day in which He arose and at evening He not only appeared in the midst of the frightened disciples, but said unto them, “Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet” (Luke 24:38–40). As no intimation is given why He should not be touched before His ascension, speculation will achieve but little. It is enough to know that He was not to make contact with things of the earth, at least until the exact demands involved in His great redemptive mission were completed and His efficacious sacrifice had been presented in heaven. It is difficult not to believe that there was a sacred continuity to be guarded between His death and the presentation in heaven, which continuity would not permit any contact. Having abandoned the former sphere of relationship with His followers by His death and resurrection, the new and final relationship could not be entered into until He had completed it all by the presentation in heaven. The implication is clear that, since He could not be touched in the morning until He ascended and yet He could be “handled” at evening of the same day, He had ascended during the day. He ascended at once from the tomb and returned for such manifestations as were appointed for that day. “Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father” means that He was about to ascend. Had He made reference in this message to His final ascension, there was no need that Mary carry the message of that to His disciples, since He Himself had before Him the entire forty days in which to deliver the news Himself. Of the two recorded ascensions, that of the resurrection morn holds the greater doctrinal significance. He had said to His Father in His final priestly prayer, “And now come I to thee” (John 17:13), and this return is not only momentous in the whole history of the universe, but it is the natural sequence after Calvary. He had come forth from the Father for the purpose of securing man’s redemption (Heb. 10:4–7) and now He returned to the Father where He belonged by all right and title.


vol 5 p 258

On the first day Christ arose from the dead (Matt. 28:1), on that day He first met His disciples in the new intimacy of fellowship (John 20:19), on that day He gave them instruction (Luke 24:36–49), on that day He ascended into heaven as the “firstfruits” or wave sheaf (John 20:17; 1 Cor. 15:20, 23; Lev. 23:10–12), on that day He breathed the Spirit on them (John 20:22), on that day the Spirit descended from heaven (Acts 2:1–4), on that day the Apostle Paul preached in Troas (Acts 20:6–7), on that day the believers came together to break bread (Acts 20:6–7), on that day they were to “lay by in store” as God had prospered them (1 Cor. 16:2).

Truthtesty



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2011 10:18AM by Truthtesty.

To the Forum:

Hebrews 10:

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Hebrews 10:12 is referring to the one sacrifice of Jesus as opposed to and in comparison with the Old testament sacrifices which were repeated from year to year. Jesus sufferred and accomplished many painful antitype sacrificial offerings categorized as one sacrifice of himself.

And Dr. Chafer agrees with the one sacrifice offering "of himself" in Hebrews 10:12-14:

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer Systematic Theology vol 5. Pg 232:
"When about to come into the world the Savior said, therefore, “… but a body hast thou prepared me” (Heb. 10:5–7), and to this it is added that “by one offering [of Himself] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified” —that is, separated unto God by their salvation received through Christ (Heb. 10:14).

Truthtesty



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 11:40AM by Truthtesty.