Read the articles.

Scientific tests and research has repeatedly proven there is no link between the native population of the Western Hemisphere previous to European immigration (1400) and ancient Jews, per the "Book of Mormon."

That's actually the point.

Not whether some families today in the US have many different convergent backgrounds through a history of marriage over the years.

Also see the following:

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

[www.culteducation.com]

Hi Wright_Again,

I am not excluding Sephardic Jews. So far as I know, Q is not found in Sephardic Jews. Virtually all modern Jews are descendants of migrant groups and migrant groups more often than not are not perfect genetic snapshots of the populations from which they came. The fact of Jewish Q-P36 may be interpreted in a number of ways. In order for that discussion to take place, however, the facts have to be acknowledged. Currently many (William Lobdell, the LA Times, numerous bloggers) are either uninformed or in denial.

Regards

Hi rrmoderator,

None of the sources you cite is a published scientific research paper. They are all news reports. So I really don't see your point. Are you claiming that news journalists like Lobdell and Patty Henetz are better sources than Behar, Hammer, Zegura, or Shen? All of the guys I cite have published research. They are connected to academic institutions like the University of Arizona, Stanford, the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, etc. etc. Below is a list from Shen's paper. It lists all researchers and their institutions. Similar info is available on the first page of all the research papers I cited.

Peidong Shen
Peter J. Oefner
Vivian Chou
Deniz Sengun
1 Stanford Genome Technology Center, Palo Alto, California;

Tal Lavi
Eilon Woolf
Jossi Hillel
2 Department of Genetics, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Faculty of
Agriculture, Food and Environmental Quality Sciences, Rehovot, Israel;

Toomas Kivisild
3 Department of Evolutionary Biology, Tartu University, and Estonian
Biocenter, Tartu, Estonia;

Dov Gefel
4 Department of Medicine-C, Barzilai Medical Center, Ashkelon, Israel;

Issac Shpirer
5 Pulmonary Institute, Assaf Harofeh Medical
Center, Zerifin, Israel;

Marcus W. Feldman
6 Department of Biological Sciences, Stanford University, Stanford, California

"Doug the Avenger":

None of the research you cite specifically demonstrates or supports the conclusion that there is any link between native Americans and ancient Jews.

There is no such link and there is no scientific research to specifcally support such a conclusion.

The "Book of Mormon" is a fictional work written by Joseph Smith and the historical claims within it, such as a supposed link between ancient Jews and Indians, are false and without any meaningful foundation in fact.

If you wish to believe the book Smith wrote you may, but don't make historical claims based upon fiction.

rrmoderator,

The 2005 Hammer study clearly states that 31% of American Indians in the US belong to the Q-P36 lineage group. The 2004 Behar study clearly states that 5% of Askenazi Jews belong to the Q-P36 lineage group. What is the problem? It's like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge basic facts. This makes intelligent debate over the meaning of these facts very difficult.

"Doug the Avenger":

Please quote the study or reserch conclusions by scientists that states specifically "Native Americans and Jews of the ancient world are genetically connected."

No such conclusion exists.

Why is "like pulling teeth" to get you to admit that?

It has occurred to me that I may not have provided complete footnotes. So here they are.
___________________________________________________________
STATEMENT:
Despite denials, the genetic link between Jews and American Indians has been established fact since 1999 [1].

STUDY:
[1] Hammer et al, 1999, Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes. See [5]

LEAD RESEARCHER:
M. F. Hammer - Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ.
__________________________________________________________

STATEMENT:
The Q-P36 lineage group is found in 31% of US American Indians [2]

STUDY:
[2] Hammer et al, 2005, Population structure of Y-chromosome SNP haplogroups in the United States and forensic implications for constructing Y chromosome STR databases. Page 5 Figure 1

LEAD RESEARCHER:
M. F. Hammer - Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ.
___________________________________________________________

STATEMENT:
[Q-P36 is found in] 5% of Ashkenazi Jews [3]

STUDY:
[3] Behar et al, 2004, Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome variation in Ashkenazi Jewish and host non-Jewish European populations. Page 357 Table 2 and Page 362 quote=“Because they have similar distributions as these major founder lineages, albeit at lower frequencies, we suggest that haplogroups G-M201 and Q-P36 are minor AJ founding lineages.”

LEAD RESEARCHER:
Doron M. Behar - Faculty of Medicine and Research Institute, Technion and Rambam Medical Center, Haifa, Israel
____________________________________________________________

STATEMENT:
[Q-P36 is found in] 5% of Iraqi Jews [4]

STUDY:
[4] Shen et al, 2004, Reconstruction of Patrilineages and Matrilineages of Samaritans and other Israeli populations from Y-Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Variation. Page 251 Figure 1 (M242 a.k.a. Q* a.k.a. Q-P36) also page 249 quote=”Nine of the 30 markers were genotyped only in individuals carrying the following proximal markers: ……..; M242 in individuals with M45”

LEAD RESEARCHER:
Peidong Shen - Stanford Genome Technology Center, Palo Alto, California; Department of Genetics
___________________________________________________________

STATEMENT:
[Q-P36 is found in] a significant number of Iranian Jews [5].

STUDY:
[5] Hammer et al, 1999, Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes. PNAS | June 6, 2000 | vol. 97 | no. 12 | 6769-6774. Page 6770 Table 1, See translation for 1C in Y Chromosome Consortium.

LEAD RESEARCHER:
M. F. Hammer - Laboratory of Molecular Systematics and Evolution, University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ.

"Doug the Avenger":

You have repeatedly not responded to the specific request for a conclusion to be posted regarding the precise meaning of the DNA results you have cited and how that information would relate specifically to the claims made within the so-called "Book of Mormon."

Please post the specific quotes from the conclusions of any of the research you have parsed out, which states that Native Americans are linked to ancient Jews historically.

Also, then cite the paper that offers this precise conclusion, which has been peer reviewed, published and name the scientific journal it was published within, date, etc.

This would be a startling new scientific discovery and no news service has thus far ever reported it to date that I am aware of.

Please enlighten everyone on this board with that exact information.

Again, that Native Americans are somehow descended from ancient Jews as published within a scientific journal using DNA research as evidence.

Again, no history or anthropology department, other than perhaps BYU, makes any such claim and no scientist has published such a peer reviewed paper that I am aware of.

Either quote and cite the paper that offers such a conclusion or admit there is no such paper and no scientist that has done DNA research has ever come to such a conclusion based on his or her research.

As per the articles previously linked on this thread, scientists that have done DNA research have specifically stated repeatedly that the results of their work demonstrates that Native Americans are not linked historically to ancient Jews as claimed within the "Book of Mormon."

Hi rrmoderator,

Let me get this straight. You now want me to cite a single published research paper that states, as a conclusion, that Jews ... No, ancient Israelites...are genetically linked to American Indians.

Is that what you are requesting?

There is no research, that I am aware of, that even covers ancient Israelite DNA; ie, DNA recovered from ancient Israelite remains.

If you know of any such research, please tell me about it. I would like to read it.

I have made a number of statements about modern Jews and Native Americans that taken together show a genetic link via the Q-P36 lineage group. Each statement is supported by published, peer reviewed research as shown. Obviously, any conclusions about ancient Israelites would have to be inferred from the DNA of living Jews. As I stated from the beginning, the facts are open to multiple interpretations. The same is true of almost any finding in any research conducted to date on Native American DNA.

Furthermore, the conclusions a scientist may draw from the findings are less valuable than the findings themselves. For example, Peter Underhill found in 1996 that using an observed mutation rate of 2.1 per 1,000, the main Native American lineage group (Q-M3) was 2147 years old. He concluded this was an understatement. Underhill then employed a theoretical mutation rate of 0.15 per 1,000 and got an age of 30,000 years for Q-M3. He concluded at the time that the 30,000 year-old date was correct. He and the rest of the scientific mainstream have since concluded that 30,000 years is far too old for Q-M3 and now preferr a date range of between 10,000 and 17,000 years. The point being, conclusions of scientists are worth little. They are all but guaranteed to change. The findings are not worthless. They remain long after the conclusions have been debunked.

If you insist that no discussion is worthwhile unless it involves ancient Israelite DNA, then no conclusions whatsoever can be drawn about the genetic relationship between Native Americans and ancient Israelites. This would seem to be in conflict with the news reports on this web page. Not one of them is based on any study that compares ancient Israelite DNA with Native American DNA, ancient or modern.

So, your sudden insistance on ancient Israelite DNA seems to be a departure from your previous position.

One final word with regard to the conclusions of scientists. In most cases the news articles cited by rrmoderator do not reference any specific study or statement by any scientist with regard to Native American DNA and the Book of Mormon. The vast majority of scientists have never expressed an opinion and would be reluctant to do so as it would tend to bias their future work. Many scientists, who are Mormons, have concluded that the evidence does not support the claims of anti-Mormon web pages such as this one. Jeff Lindsey specifically cited the 1999 Hammer study in his rebuttal and anti-Mormon claims. Southerton and others have consistantly evaded the Q-P36 issue. If you place so much value on the conclusions of scientists then ask one specifically about the Q-P36 lineage. Ask them what they make of this lineage that is undoubtedly shared between modern Jews and Native Americans.