Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 24, 2007 07:52PM
[b:94641ff697]This post was tranferred from another thread[/b:94641ff697]
See [board.culteducation.com]
Church of God (Anderson).
My accountability is four-fold.
[list:94641ff697][*:94641ff697]Ordination is primarily based upon spiritual call ... this call, Biblical knowledge, and theology are evaluated over a 2-5 year period in full-time mentoring relationships (unless there is some reason for expediency). This evaluation time is used for theological accountability.
[*:94641ff697]Once ordained, a local "district" holds my credentials and can pull these at any time that I am found to be non-orthodox in teaching, or suffer worldly failures that compromise the Gospel. I am required to be in relationship with other local pastors affiliated with this district (although the relationships are, admittedly, not as strong as they should be).
[*:94641ff697]My local congregation is independent, and it doesn't fall neatly into any of the three major forms of church government (Episcopal, Presbyterian, or Congregational). We have an Eldership which is responsible for the overall spiritual health of the church, the members, and me (for example, they monitor my theological teaching). The pastor is also an elder ... thus the pastor is not over the elders, and the elders are not over the pastor but all are under Christ. However, if the non-pastor Elders begin to have problems with teaching, they know to report their concerns to the local district for further investigation. I might add two things: (a) our Elders are not elected by the congregation, but Elders are recognized based upon their spiritual maturity as lived out in the community; and (b) Elders are [b:94641ff697]only responsible[/b:94641ff697] for spiritual accountability and discernment - e.g. they do not manage the church or oversee its finances.
[*:94641ff697]I have a 1-on-1 accountability partner to question my moral behavior and "appearances", such as asking me the standard accountability questions.[/list:u:94641ff697]
My original comment was based on seminary training, and not just general college work. It took me some time to remember what I had seen. It was a paragraph in "ChurchNext" (Eddie Gibbs, Fuller Theological Seminary). On pages 92 and 93 he writes:
"There is a serious decline in the number of students taking the Master of Divinity degree, which has long been regarded in academic circles and denominational hierarchies as the professional degree for ordained ministry. The reality is that the majority of pastors serving churches in the United States do not have a Master of Divinity degree. It is not required by some of the largest denominations. Nor do independent churches, megachurches that increasingly train their own staff members, and the fast-growing "new apostolic" movements require it."
That clarifies my original recollection.
See [board.culteducation.com]
Quote
rrmoderator
What church organization are you attached to? What accountability do you have specifically?
Church of God (Anderson).
My accountability is four-fold.
[list:94641ff697][*:94641ff697]Ordination is primarily based upon spiritual call ... this call, Biblical knowledge, and theology are evaluated over a 2-5 year period in full-time mentoring relationships (unless there is some reason for expediency). This evaluation time is used for theological accountability.
[*:94641ff697]Once ordained, a local "district" holds my credentials and can pull these at any time that I am found to be non-orthodox in teaching, or suffer worldly failures that compromise the Gospel. I am required to be in relationship with other local pastors affiliated with this district (although the relationships are, admittedly, not as strong as they should be).
[*:94641ff697]My local congregation is independent, and it doesn't fall neatly into any of the three major forms of church government (Episcopal, Presbyterian, or Congregational). We have an Eldership which is responsible for the overall spiritual health of the church, the members, and me (for example, they monitor my theological teaching). The pastor is also an elder ... thus the pastor is not over the elders, and the elders are not over the pastor but all are under Christ. However, if the non-pastor Elders begin to have problems with teaching, they know to report their concerns to the local district for further investigation. I might add two things: (a) our Elders are not elected by the congregation, but Elders are recognized based upon their spiritual maturity as lived out in the community; and (b) Elders are [b:94641ff697]only responsible[/b:94641ff697] for spiritual accountability and discernment - e.g. they do not manage the church or oversee its finances.
[*:94641ff697]I have a 1-on-1 accountability partner to question my moral behavior and "appearances", such as asking me the standard accountability questions.[/list:u:94641ff697]
Quote
rrmoderator
The majority of Christian pastors in the US have attended and graduated from an accredited college and many have gone on to seminary for a post-graduate degree.
Please cite and link any study or suvey that states otherwise.
My original comment was based on seminary training, and not just general college work. It took me some time to remember what I had seen. It was a paragraph in "ChurchNext" (Eddie Gibbs, Fuller Theological Seminary). On pages 92 and 93 he writes:
"There is a serious decline in the number of students taking the Master of Divinity degree, which has long been regarded in academic circles and denominational hierarchies as the professional degree for ordained ministry. The reality is that the majority of pastors serving churches in the United States do not have a Master of Divinity degree. It is not required by some of the largest denominations. Nor do independent churches, megachurches that increasingly train their own staff members, and the fast-growing "new apostolic" movements require it."
That clarifies my original recollection.
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 24, 2007 07:55PM
OrangeRev:
You have raised some interesting points.
Apparently, Church of God doesn't have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church boards.
You have also not stated that the COG requires its churches to have published and independently audited financial reports, which disclose in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses.
So it seems there is no mandated and meaningful financial transparency at COG.
You also describe "elders" that are not elected and have very limited powers, i.e. they don't control church money and can only complain to the district rather than take direct action within the church.
Who selects these elders? The pastor?
Who controls church money? The pastor?
Also it seems that a college degree is not required to become a Church of God pastor, which is typically the case for the overwhelming majority of both Protestant pastors and Catholic priests.
You have raised some interesting points.
Apparently, Church of God doesn't have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church boards.
You have also not stated that the COG requires its churches to have published and independently audited financial reports, which disclose in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses.
So it seems there is no mandated and meaningful financial transparency at COG.
You also describe "elders" that are not elected and have very limited powers, i.e. they don't control church money and can only complain to the district rather than take direct action within the church.
Who selects these elders? The pastor?
Who controls church money? The pastor?
Also it seems that a college degree is not required to become a Church of God pastor, which is typically the case for the overwhelming majority of both Protestant pastors and Catholic priests.
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
malleeboy
()
Date: July 25, 2007 05:52AM
OrangeRev:
Could I also ask what is the local "district"? How is it controlled? How is its parts selected? Is it accountable to a national body or to the local congregations?
Furthermore can elders be removed and by what process? Is the discussions of the "eldership" and pastor distrubuted to the congregation? What is the process if an elder disagrees?
Could I also ask what is the local "district"? How is it controlled? How is its parts selected? Is it accountable to a national body or to the local congregations?
Furthermore can elders be removed and by what process? Is the discussions of the "eldership" and pastor distrubuted to the congregation? What is the process if an elder disagrees?
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
OrangeRev
()
Date: July 25, 2007 12:31PM
Quote
rrmoderator
OrangeRev:
You have raised some interesting points.
Apparently, Church of God doesn't have meaningful accountability through democratically elected church boards.
You have also not stated that the COG requires its churches to have published and independently audited financial reports, which disclose in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses.
So it seems there is no mandated and meaningful financial transparency at COG.
You also describe "elders" that are not elected and have very limited powers, i.e. they don't control church money and can only complain to the district rather than take direct action within the church.
Who selects these elders? The pastor?
Who controls church money? The pastor?
Also it seems that a college degree is not required to become a Church of God pastor, which is typically the case for the overwhelming majority of both Protestant pastors and Catholic priests.
First, "Church of God" is a name that is used by about 80 or so denominations in America - it is a generic name, and there are vast differences between "Church of God" denominations.
Second, I believe it is inappropriate to hold a discussion about the denomination I'm affiliated with - Church of God (Anderson) - in a "Destructive Churches" forum, since (overall) this subject matter is off-topic for a "Cult Education Forum."
(Well, unless there are some accusation I'm unaware of ... )
I would be more than happy to address these questions on an appropriate forum, if you would like to direct me.
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 25, 2007 08:57PM
OrangeRev:
You came to this forum and decided to post here on your own.
You entered a discussion about Calvary Chapel with comments about your "Church of God" position and its supposed accountability.
See [board.culteducation.com]
"This message board was designed to offer the public an open forum for discussion and free expression, concerning controversial and/or potentially unsafe groups, and generally related subjects.
The mention and/or inclusion of a group within this message board does not define that group as a "cult" and/or destructive. Nor does the mention of an individual somehow label him or her as either negative and/or harmful. Instead, each message simply reflects the individual opinion of the author."
You came to this forum and decided to post here on your own.
You entered a discussion about Calvary Chapel with comments about your "Church of God" position and its supposed accountability.
See [board.culteducation.com]
"This message board was designed to offer the public an open forum for discussion and free expression, concerning controversial and/or potentially unsafe groups, and generally related subjects.
The mention and/or inclusion of a group within this message board does not define that group as a "cult" and/or destructive. Nor does the mention of an individual somehow label him or her as either negative and/or harmful. Instead, each message simply reflects the individual opinion of the author."
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
OrangeRev
()
Date: July 25, 2007 11:12PM
Quote
rrmoderator
You entered a discussion about Calvary Chapel with comments about your "Church of God" position and its supposed accountability.
As a courtesy to you, a supposed moderator on this forum, I openly answered a directed question to me in that thread (since neither I nor the "Church of God (Anderson)" are secretive).
It is at that point that you created this thread. Since the forum rules state that postings are to be in appropriate subforums, your creation of this thread, by inference, accuses "Church of God" to be a "controversial and/or potentially unsafe group" or "destructive church", and that is made [b:1e3137a297]without basis[/b:1e3137a297]. ... to me this appears to be an implied accusation, and it feels slanderous and offensive to me.
... unless, in ignorance, you somehow naively think that Church of God (Anderson) is connected to Worldwide Church of God - [b:1e3137a297]it is not[/b:1e3137a297]
Again, my objection is not to this thread or its questions, but rather the subforum in which you, a supposed moderator, created the thread.
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 25, 2007 11:16PM
OrangeRev:
The previous post covered this.
Read the disclaimer.
Note the rules/guidelines you agreed to before posting comments here.
See [board.culteducation.com]
"Please note the general topic headings listed at the main page of this forum and the related subheadings of each thread. Posting random statements about unrelated subjects is not appreciated."
"The owners of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason."
BTW--it seems you don't want to answer any more questions regarding accountability.
The previous post covered this.
Read the disclaimer.
Note the rules/guidelines you agreed to before posting comments here.
See [board.culteducation.com]
"Please note the general topic headings listed at the main page of this forum and the related subheadings of each thread. Posting random statements about unrelated subjects is not appreciated."
"The owners of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason."
BTW--it seems you don't want to answer any more questions regarding accountability.
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
OrangeRev
()
Date: July 26, 2007 12:35AM
Quote
rrmoderator
BTW--it seems you don't want to answer any more questions regarding accountability.
You have evidently missed my statement above, so I will repeat it:
Quote
OrangeRev
I would be more than happy to address these questions on an appropriate forum, if you would like to direct me.
Again, for me to address the accountability practices of an orthodox and well-respected church group in a "Destructive Churches" subforum would be off-topic. I do not wish to violate the rules of this site.
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 26, 2007 12:46AM
OrangeRev:
You felt personally "compelled" to come to this Forum, no one invited and/or forced you to post here.
You initially posted under this same heading of "destructive churches."
Seems like you have embarassed yourself and now realize that you don't want to answer any more questions.
Probably the best thing to do regarding damage control at this point is to move on.
Answering further questions about "elders," "finances," etc. will probably only dig you in deeper and embarass you further.
You felt personally "compelled" to come to this Forum, no one invited and/or forced you to post here.
You initially posted under this same heading of "destructive churches."
Seems like you have embarassed yourself and now realize that you don't want to answer any more questions.
Probably the best thing to do regarding damage control at this point is to move on.
Answering further questions about "elders," "finances," etc. will probably only dig you in deeper and embarass you further.
Do Church of God pastors have meaningful accountability?
Posted by:
OrangeRev
()
Date: July 26, 2007 01:19AM
Quote
rrmoderator
OrangeRev:
You felt personally "compelled" to come to this Forum, no one invited and/or forced you to post here.
Seems like you have embarassed yourself and now realize that you don't want to answer any more questions.
Probably the best thing to do regarding damage control at this point is to move on.
Answering further questions about "elders," "finances," etc. will probably only dig you in deeper and embarass you further.
True, I initially posted in an attempt to be helpful with a conflict that was evident in another thread. As a result of that post, you initiated this question and invited me to respond: reference.
I am not "embarassed" (sic) ... as I have said multiple times, I am simply waiting for you to direct me to a proper forum so that I do not violate forum rules.
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