Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Chris19 ()
Date: November 01, 2012 03:01AM

I was heartened to read that Mrs Gault told the person Squareone knew that she didn't have demons but that she needed counselling. I know others have viewed this with scepticism but I am choosing to take it at face value.That advice would never have been given in my day. In fact the church were very anti psychology and psychiatry which meant there was nowhere to turn when treatable problems arose. These problems then had a tendency to become chronic as time passed and self-esteem and self- confidence plummented. Being prayed with for healing or deliverance in the absence of any change just added another layer of failure and unworthiness. However, just because a lot of bad advice gets dished out in a high handed way doesn't mean that the leaders can't sometimes get it right. I know the leaders have screwed a lot of people up - myself included for a time- but I still retain the hope that they don't set out with this intention.

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: squareone ()
Date: November 01, 2012 05:36AM

agree with that sentiment Chris, I retain that hope too

The subject of pastors is an interesting one. Now I'm thinking about it Struthers has been the only church I've had a long term association with that has had a pastor and when there's a pastor there comes the expectation of what they should be doing. I think I do have low expectations of pastors, but it's partly because I belonged to a church which made a deliberate decision not to have a pastor. There were those who stood out as teachers as they'd studied at bible college and the teaching was good but there was no-one who was pastor. It wasn't perfect by any stretch but it did mean that if someone was sick or sad or such and got no calls or visits we were all to blame and not just the pastor. I belonged to another church as I grew up that had no pastor but had elders and they were responsible for pastoral visits. I didn't get what I expected at all at Struthers but I think it was from the church as a whole body of believers and not just from the pastor/leader/teacher or however they would refer to themselves.

I might go back if they're bringing fun into it though ;}

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 05:38AM by squareone.

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Rensil ()
Date: November 01, 2012 07:51AM

I tend to agree more with Chesterk55's explanation regarding a leader suggesting to a person that they should go for counselling, rather than that it being a sign that things are changing in SMC and there is more openess to outside counselling provision. Again and again, I have heard Grace Gault say in preaching that a lot of psychological help and so-called counselling is ineffective where people's needs are concerned. This is fairly recent and is probably on some of the podcasts which were online, but I couldn't give a reference as to the occasions when she said this. She quoted a research study of people who had survived the Lockerbie Disaster, which found that the people who went through professional counselling did not fare as well in the ensuing years as those people who just got on with things, talked to their friends and family and worked their own way through the trauma. The message she was giving seems obvious: don't bother to go for professional counselling. We have all you need here. Or, what is usually said to one who comes for help: "Just turn to Christ. Just give it all to Christ." Or the leader prays with the person for a short time and that's it all finished and sorted. No.

But the problem is that they don't have all that people need because they are not prepared, as Chesterk55 says, to spend time talking to people who are hurting and troubled, especially if you are not one of their favoured, chosen ones.
I know some people, who were in SMC, who were very troubled by childhood wounds and trauma, or others struggling with anxiety problems. None of them were advised to seek counselling from an outside body; on the contrary, two that I know about, were told not to seek counselling. One of them sought out counselling him/herself because they were desperate and because their G.P. also suggested he/she should. These people did go to the leaders for help but found that the leaders did not have the time to sit down with them and talk through the issues and the persons felt that the SMC leaders just could not help them. This of course, made the persons more anxious and more depressed. I believe that professional counselling, (both secular and christian), has helped them and also the Freedom in Christ course which many churches run. But why can't their church, to which they have been loyal (and given money to aswell), for years, help them?
And I agree, Chesterk55, that people would probably feel and function a whole lot better and happier if they got away from SMC, because being a part of SMC does mangle the minds of many people. So that could be the root of some of their problems for starters.

SMC have never endorsed any outside agency which offers inner healing or counselling, such as Ellel Ministries. Such are frowned upon and looked on as inferior or even dangerous and contaminating, for one reaon only and that is they are not run by SMC and its leaders. Ironically, SMC are happy to have ex-drug addicts, who have come through rehab, as members and to have them give their amazing testimonies on Saturday nights, but to my knowledge, they wouldn't refer a new or visiting addict to a counselling service or rehab facility. Instead they would send them to another church to get referral and support. How odd is that?

I wonder whether the person to whom Squareone refers, has indeed got some support and counselling outwith SMC. I do hope so. I know of people who have left SMC and who have received counselling and prayer ministry and are now doing very well.
I question whether the SMC leaders should be called Pastors at all, because the word "pastor" comes from the Latin word for shepherd, derived from "pascere", meaning "to feed, to look after, to care for." Are they doing this as a good shepherd would do with the sheep under his care? Like Chesterk55, I also know several good, honourable, caring, wise church pastors in other churches. It is possible!

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: squareone ()
Date: November 01, 2012 03:32PM

ok. I'm going to backtrack a little and say that while I'm 100% sure she was told she didn't have demons I'm not 100% sure she didn't mention the counselling thing herself. I'll retract that bit. It was a chance conversation with someone I happened to be sitting beside and I mentioned it because it came back to me while reading the most recent latigo article the message of which seemed to be that SMC leaders like deliverance ministry because it makes folks go 'wow' and think highly of them. That Mrs Gault didn't leap on the chance to do deliverance on that occasion I thought was relevant and worth mentioning. Whether she did the right thing for the right reasons or did the right thing for the wrong reasons I can only now speculate. To my shame I don't know how that lady is now, I think I started my navel gazing soon after that and it became all about me. Yuk.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2012 03:50PM by squareone.

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Grace-girl ()
Date: November 02, 2012 06:37AM

hi all
i havent posted for a wee while now. it was the mention of "other counseling"that got me posting agiain!
i am at the moment taking a freedom in christ course in the church i am in, and i can honestly say i am hearing things spoken
off that i should have been able to address years ago, i now know where a lot of my issues come from and therefore i am able to
deal with them a lot better with the help of my loving pastor and with God. i never even heard of any such course when i was in SMC.
i have know a loving family member seek christian counseling and be greatly helped by it. I too was sold the stuff about having demons and
witnessed many loud "deliverences". in the church i am currently in i feel i have come so far spirritualy and i have not had loud screaming deliverence
although something has happened and it was not "showey" but very full of god's grace! I am still dealing with lots of layers of stuff that has been pushed down
through my 25+ years in smc but im glad its now coming to the surface and i feel free to be vunerable in church with my loving christian family! My prayer for all the people who have been in one way or another "damaged" by there time with smc is that they may find the freedom and grace that our papa God gives in abundance, which i am just learning.i have been away from smc for over a year now and i feel i have grown so much in both my natural and spiritual life over the year. Praise god for his faithfulness

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: cbarb ()
Date: November 03, 2012 01:10AM

Hi guys

It's true that SMC are against 'secular' counselling and that a person who is troubled, and not of any immediate interest to the leader, should be able to work through their problems on their own. Yes, they will be told to just 'take it to Christ' but, in my experience, the actual teaching of the church doesn't properly address how to spend time meditating and getting close enough to God to allow him to fill you with his PEACE. Instead everything is about being loud and getting in a frenzy over how unworthy we all are in one thing or another and yet God himself says, in the Bible, that he is the 'still small voice' and you can't hear him while you're greetin' and wailing and gnashing your teeth.

So, if the people are not being properly guided in how to get in contact with God how are they supposed to work through their problems with His help?

On the subject of a Christian being able to be posessed by demons I don't believe for one minute that a person who has a daily loving relationship with God can possibly ever be posessed by any other spirit than God's Holy Spirit. To say or imply that it is possible amounts to blasphemy and suggests that God is not powerful enough to protect His people from such influences. In my experience, SMC do seem to enjoy the 'demon posession' platform more than is truly healthy for any church organisation.

It's strange, and I may be remembering things wrongly but, while I was reading the new article on the Latigo site, I was struck by the quote from one of Mr. Black's books (I haven't actually read any of them myself - I heard enough of him from the pulpit) where Miss Taylor is quoted as saying something along the lines that it was very unhealthy to dwell too much on the dark side - OK so that's from Star Wars but I can't remember the actual words. However, to my mind, she was the very one who began the whole demon-posession obsession in the first place. Am I wrong about that? It seems to me, from what I can recall, that Miss Taylor herself was the one who was making most of the demonic-posession accusations to begin with and preaching on it every chance she got.

So was she mis-quoted in Mr. Black's book? Did she lie in his book? Did she change her mind suddenly but forget to tell the rest of the church? Anyway the quote just doesn't make any sense to me as being attributed to Miss Taylor. The funny thing is though that the quote itself is absoultely correct but it definitely couldn't have come from Miss Taylor unless she was lying about her true beliefs.

Am I wrong about my recollections of Miss Taylor's view on demon posession? I don't think I am because then the church wouldn't still have this unhealthy obsession with the 'dark side' would they? And, as I've said before, Miss Taylor was a bit off her rocker really and that was kind of obvious so it stands to reason that, if her ways are still being taught by the church leaders then they must be a bit off their rockers also.

Incidentally, by my recollection, it was also Miss Taylor who decided the leaders were anointed and didn't have to answer any questions any more because they were now as devine as God and to question them would be to question God.

As always

Biiiiiig love and hugggggs
God bless xxxx

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: lintar123 ()
Date: November 03, 2012 07:00AM

Hello, I haven`t posted for a while. Sometimes I think some "stick up" for Struthers , but what I experienced, happened, and I will take it to my grave (see previous posts).
I know also that D. Rutherford has managed to get hubby Graham (former police man) to be working in her classroom as a support worker. Who agreed to that in the authority and why? Don`t tell me that there are no Struthers ulterior motives for the kids involved. Who has she duped now for this to happen?
Also the son Zander is a Primary teacher. Does anyone else see a connection?

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: lintar123 ()
Date: November 03, 2012 07:06AM

forgot to say C.Barb , I had to meet Miss Taylor to be given the "once over" before I was allowed to marry my husband.

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: Rensil ()
Date: November 03, 2012 08:29AM

Cbarb, yes Miss Taylor did say that about not focussing on the dark things and not dwelling on demonic stuff. I heard her say that in preaching and it is still said, as far as I know. I have heard Mr Black say this and also D Rutherford in preaching. She of course says she has Miss Taylor's mantle.
So there is no mistake, Cbarb, either in the quote in Mr Black's book or what was and is said re dwelling on the demonic.

Just yet another inconsistency and hypocrisy and deceit almost, in SMC teaching. One of my friends had a christian book about deliverance and demon activity and was told by a leader to throw the book away and not read stuff like that. She did as instructed. Why then, all the talk about demon possession in individuals who seek help for their problems?

I know other christian ministries who do pray deliverance prayers for people who are in need and troubled, because of say, involvement in the occult or drugs, but such people are dealt with kindly and carefully and yes, they get set free. They get love and understanding, not blame. And there is no frenzied yelling in tongues either. It can happen quietly and easily.

Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by: cbarb ()
Date: November 07, 2012 05:48AM

Hi guys

Sorry, I can't seem to keep my mouth shut for long :-)

Thanks Rensil for confirming my recollections of Miss Taylor's teaching. I don't actually remember Miss Taylor talking about it being a bad thing to dwell on the 'dark side' but I do remember many rantings and ravings about demon possession and the need for constant deliverance from evil.

In my day, Miss Taylor was this god-like person who was apart from everyone else and never visited people in the congregation, that I know of any way. As far as I can remember you couldn't even talk to her unless you went through Mr. Black first. It was like she was some kind of holy priest type person who could not be allowed to be tainted by the troubles of her minions and who didn't even smile at you when you passed her and gave her a nod or a 'good morning'. To us kids she was scarier than the worst teacher at school and was revered like God. Everything seemed to be about what Miss Taylor wanted and not what God wanted, or rather, what Miss Taylor wanted was put across as God's commands to his people and every week there was another 'abomination' that we should keep away from or seek deliverance from. But you'd better stay awake coz in a few months' time the demands will all have changed!

She DID go off her rocker completely when she got ill but I suspect she was off her rocker long before she succumbed to her illness. I also believe she didn't really like men (perhaps she'd never been in love herself) and I think she was quite jealous of those in the congregation who were happily married. I say this because of her deep need to involve herself in people's marriages and relationships and she seemed to 'hammer nails' into so many people's relationships that it's a wonder ANY of them survived her unwarranted meddling.

Anyway, all this codswallop about DR having Miss Taylor's mantle just makes me guffaw coz that's like saying 'I'm as off my rocker as Miss Taylor was!'. Ha, never a truer word was spoken.

Squareone, I tend to agree with you on the point of SMC leaders enjoying the 'wow' factor and the self-importance gained from their apparent 'gifts' which set them apart from everyone else. The more people pander to them the more puffed up they become.

Also, I saw that blog Chesterk55 and perhaps they are making an effort at youth outreach. I know I'm a great advocate of outreach but SMC need to change their fundamental views of the teachings of the Bible before they start trying to bring in new recruits. Right now their outreach may only bring harmful consequences once the 'fun' part is over.

The SMC leaders need to first learn humility, love, grace, truthfulness, kindness and compassion; then they might be fit to teach new recruits about God and the way He expects us to conduct ourselves and live our lives.

As always
Biiiiig love and huge hugggggggs to all.
God bless you all richly. xxxx

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