Hi folks

On the subject of being told by church leaders to keep yourself apart from others who might 'taint' your so-called 'holiness', Rensil says it quite succinctly in the previous post:

Finally, Jesus travelled far just to speak to, save and set free the isolated, rejected, mad demoniac man who kept pigs in Gaderene and who ran about the tombs naked and cut himself. Read it in the New Testament and picture the scene. Jesus loved that man and set him free and he joyfully ran off to tell everyone what Jesus had done.

If the church leaders are warning against specific people then they have very little faith in the power of God themselves. A person who truly walks with God can never be affected by the negative forces from anyone because God is the great protector of his people and as long as we walk with Him beside us we will be the affecTORS and not the affecTED. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

If God was afraid of his people being 'tainted' why then did he bother to send his only Son to show us that we should actively seek out people who were in need of His LOVE and GRACE and, in so doing, be blessed richly ourselves for our own Godly behaviour.

The leaders of SMC will tell you this person or that person doesn't understand what's going on in SMC or can't hack it in the SMC world. Well I say that's about the ONLY truth they are actually telling you. YES, most people don't understand the SMC way because it is NOT founded on the absolute truth of the word of God Himself as written in the Bible. Furthermore, it is not founded in the LOVE and GRACE of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

As I've already said, it is not your place nor the church leaders' place to say who is worthy of God's LOVE and who is not and the only time it is acceptable to publicly warn against specific individuals is where those individuals are CRIMINAL and by that I mean, if the person is a child abuser or a violent phsycopath. Even then, you should seek information elsewhere to CONFIRM that what the leaders tell you about people is indeed true. Do NOT rely on gossip or mere words being flung at you from a platform, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS find out the absolute and irrefutable truth from the correct sources. If that means actually talking to the person yourself then that's what you should do. NEVER EVER judge a person because someone, even if it's a church leader, has told you something nasty about that person.

Do you read the newspapers and believe every word you read? No of course you don't and you should treat the words of your leaders in the same way - NEVER believe ANYTHING you are told unless you can absolutely and irrefutably prove to yourself that what you are being told is the absolute truth. In the case of SMC, your reference and teaching guide should be the Bible and where you are being told things about specific people don't be afraid to contact that person and ask about the truth of what you're hearing. If you do not do these things then you have absolutely NO RIGHT whatsoever to judge any other person around you. THAT IS BIBLICALLY CORRECT. Mat. 7:1 & 2 - Judge not that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

In other words, if you judge someone then God will judge you similarly. So if you judge someone wrongly, you will be wrongly judged yourself by God. Now you see what I'm getting at? Cause and effect, action and reaction - in all things we should be asking 'What would GOD have me do in this situation?' and not 'What would the leaders of my church or my friends in the church have me do in this situation?'. If a church leader tells you something that doesn't feel quite right or leaves you with doubts then turn to the Bible and turn to God in prayer and you will, in the majority of cases, discover that the leader is completely wrong and you should ignore what they are telling you. That niggling doubt in your mind is GOD speaking to you and not satan. Satan is very blatant about his manipulation of you and your concious mind, God is quietly in the background of your subconcious prompting you to make the right decisions for yourselves and not rely on self-appointed leaders to lead you, by the nose, into an unwholesome and ungodly relationship with the church AWAY from your personal relationship with our God and Master of the whole universe.

Church leaders only lead a few people, GOD leads the whole universe. Do you get it now?

Living a Godly and Holy life is not about ensconcing yourself and your holy gifts in a wee clique of like-minded people. The Amish try to do this and good on them for giving it a go but there is no spiritual advancement in this. To advance spiritually we MUST go OUT and DO God's work among the people who need Him and in this way God blesses us and increases our spiritual experience.

To the young people and children who attend SMC...

It may be that you are unable to leave because your parents insist you attend the church and it is right that you should obey your parents - this is Biblical - even if you don't understand or believe what you are being taught by the church God will reward you for your dedication and obedience to your parents. It doesn't mean that your parents are correct but that's for God to decide and not you. However, you should not just take everything you hear as being gospel and instead get into the habit of regularly reading your Bible and praying to God for HIS guidance in your life and he will make sure you are safe from the harmful ways of the church.

You may think that you see and hear and feel things which give you an uplifiting feeling in your spirit leading you to believe that God is moving in the church and sometimes He may well be. However, the test for whether or not these feelings or the things you witness come from God is the lasting effect on your life. To put it another way, if something good happens and you feel elated but only for a short period of time then this was not originally from God. When God moves he moves absolutely and without a doubt, when God heals He heals absolutely and without a doubt, when God touches your soul He touches absolutely and without a doubt. None of what God does EVER fades or pales over time, His work in peoples' lives is EVERLASTING and does not go away or disappear after a period of time. If the things you thought were spiritual lose their substance or effects over a period of time then they did not originate from God in the first place.

To the adults, if you leave a meeting feeling down, depressed, unworthy, unloved or confused then God has not been manifest in that meeting and your spirit will remain static and unfulfilled. Satan is the one who gives you momentary pleasure and elation in your spirit to try and fool you into believing you are receiving a great gift. But satan's gifts pale and fade over time and this is why you fluctuate between being on a 'high' to being so low you are unsure of your relationship with God. This is not strictly your fault because satan is the great deceiver after all but it is your duty to question why you feel depressed and you should take the PROactive action of going to God directly, through prayer and meditation (by yourself) and He will fill you with His LIGHT and LOVE and bring you out of the negative feelings.

GOD UPLIFTS and ELATES he does NOT depress and no matter what anyone tells you we are ALL worthy recipients of God's LIGHT, LOVE and GRACE because our spirits (our souls) are an integral part of GOD Himself. Isn't that just too wonderful for words? God even loves the criminals - he abhors their actions but he loves their souls and even they can repent and receive God's LIGHT, LOVE and GRACE and make amends for their wrongdoings.

Now you're with me - God loves everyone so much that he would not even turn his back on a paedophile if that person came to him in true repentance, so who are we to judge? What gives people, even church leaders, the right to judge any other human being. God alone is the judge. Obviously criminals have to be punished in an earthly sense but even the worst offender in a prison cell will be forgiven by God if they truly repent and make amends for what they have done wrong.

If God can LOVE the worst criminal in the land you can be sure He LOVES every one of us just as much and that's EVERLASTING LOVE not conditional on whether you attend SMC or any other organisation for that matter. It's FREE LOVE and GRACE to ALL who will accept it, Hallelujah!

My prayers and thoughts are with you all.

Huge LOVE and HUGGGGGGGGGS
God bless you richly today and always
xxxx

Hi again folks

Just another thought regarding the '10 Cities' sermon by Diana. I've come to recognise that she might not be so wrong about her name being known all over Glasgow but it won't be for her Godliness or Holiness; it will be for her UNgodliness and UNholiness and probably as a direct result of the wonderful people who are posting their harrowing experiences on this site.

Good work everyone, keep it up!

xxx

And here I am again with another thought.....

On the issue of 'death to self' this is grounded in the Bible but not in the way SMC teaches it. 'Death to self' means stop looking for MY blessings, MY spiritual experiences, MY life, MY wants and needs, MY desires and start looking at the needs, wants, desires, blessings, spiritual experiences of everyone else EXCEPT yourself and when you do this GOD will take care of your SELF.

When you practice this kind of 'death to self' you will find your life will be blessed and your spiritual gifts will be increased without you having to continually ask God for this for your SELF.

God bless
xxx

Appreciate your postings, Cbarb.
The 10 cities referred to 10 towns in North Lanarkshire. That's a good point, cbarb, that Diana is known, but not for love and goodwill to people. She is known indeed in her area and church pastors have expressed their concerns. And also known by some further afield. Yes, bad aswell as good opinions of people get known

Some interesting thought cbarb. Thanks for sharing.

Has everyone read the latest article on Latigo? As usual, very well constructed.

It's a good article. Amongst other things it raises the question, can someone who has God's Holy Spirit living within them also have a demonic spirit living within them? That would be something that made no sense to me but I can't claim to know anything about the subject, maybe someone on here could help me out.

Here I go again.. I didn't ever go to the camps so the only experience I had of anything remotely to do with deliverance at Struthers was in talking to a person- who was really quite a troubled soul, an unhappy person - who said she'd gone to Mrs Gault saying she thought her troubles were caused by demons and was told by Mrs Gault that she was quite sure she had no demons and might just need some form of counselling.... I know there will be many who have had a vastly different experience, it just seems to me to be fair to note that, in that relatively recent instance, the person wasn't immediately whisked into a back room for deliverance ministry


ps. Have been meaning to ask for ages- does the forum not have a moderator anymore? all posts seem to go on straight away now, used to have to wait for a bit



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/30/2012 05:54AM by squareone.

Hi Squareone

Great to see you back :-). You too Blackwatch.

I'm going to hold off posting for a while in the hope that more people will be encouraged to speak up. However, on your point about the friend who was not offered 'deliverance ministry', Squareone. In my experience not everyone is immediately pulled into 'deliverance of their demons' and I believe it has a lot to do with how vulnerable and easily manipulated the person in question is.

I suspect that your friend could be quite a strong minded person in the normal scheme of things and would be likely to ask more difficult questions regarding their 'deliverance' than someone who is more easily led into believing that they have a real problem. It could also point to something a little more worldly and that being perhaps Mrs. Gault doesn't actually like the person in question (or she would have made an effort to help the person get the counselling they needed). In my experience the treatment you receive depends on how well liked you are as a person and how easily manipulated and hoodwinked you can be.

The pastors don't tend to spend any quality time with anyone they don't like or deem to be unworthy and 'straying from the SMC path'. If I were your friend I would be breathing a sigh of relief and run as fast as I could right out the door. I also suspect that your friend's soul was troubled as a direct result of being involved in this organisation.

On another note, I still haven't had a chance to speak to the boy who used to attend Cedars although my son's friend hasn't heard from him in a while but I'll keep you all posted when I do eventually get the chance to speak to the kid.

As always
Biiiiiig love and huge 10g huggggggggggs to all
God bless you.
xxxxxx

this was a vulnerable person..I suppose the other side of the coin would be that Mrs Gault acted with integrity on that occasion which was what I thought at the time. I guess we'll never know for sure but I think I can guess the majority opinion and I probably Have grown less sure over the years....

What about the other thing? Can Christians be homes for demons?

Quote
squareone

Here I go again.. I didn't ever go to the camps so the only experience I had of anything remotely to do with deliverance at Struthers was in talking to a person- who was really quite a troubled soul, an unhappy person - who said she'd gone to Mrs Gault saying she thought her troubles were caused by demons and was told by Mrs Gault that she was quite sure she had no demons and might just need some form of counselling.... I know there will be many who have had a vastly different experience, it just seems to me to be fair to note that, in that relatively recent instance, the person wasn't immediately whisked into a back room for deliverance ministry

Hi Squareone

Reading your quote of course the question people might be asking is what was it that got this poor vulnerable person convinced they were demon troubled in the first place? Welcome to Struthers!

So even if the teaching from the pulpit was the cause of this it would not be too astonishing if occasionally someone got better rather than worse advice from a Struthers leader. I suppose the message of this forum is not that they always get it all wrong but:

1            they get it wrong an awful lot and people feel badly hurt by what happened to them

2            in 700 plus posts and 2 years no one who claims to believe in Struthers, its leaders and its teaching as a special way to God is capable of coming onto this forum and making any serious coherent defence of what they do that stands up to any scrutiny at all.

Only 2 people who claimed to be still in Struthers (excluding the special case of Blackwatch!) posted once each and 2 other people stating they were no longer members tried (a bit better) to defend it based on the fact it wasn't too bad for them in the brief time they were there. Maybe that is okay advice – if you do go to Struthers for a while get out before the walls close in.

But one thing Struthers did seem to do to all of us is lower our expectations of what a church pastor does. Now knowing many and various excellent church leaders and pastors I can see how it should work. The leader is the servant of the people and is always seeking to get the person from where they now are to:

1            being free and able to grow and enjoy living their Christian life and
2            being able to serve God and the church through encouragement and opportunity to use their unique personal gifts.

So in that context a good church leader puts their arm around a person and gets them what they need to achieve this. So if they need deliverance from an addiction they get help with that (maybe a one off prayer but more likely a serious addiction counselling programme). If they need understanding they help them enrol on a Christian education course and get that understanding. If they need counselling they don't just say, “you need counselling”, slap them on the back and ignore them for the next few years; rather they help that person get to an appropriate counsellor and get whatever help they need.

I know many people in Struthers who I think desperately need Christian and life counselling and not more condemnation sermons or encouragement to scream till some demons come out. I know of no one who has been placed in touch with a counselling organisation by a Struthers pastor and I have never heard from the pulpit any endorsement of a counselling service or (in my time) any Christian agency outside Struthers. Quite the opposite they often claimed: “God has given the leadership in this church everything that the congregation need or will need”. How is that working out for the members I wonder?

Part of this I have always assumed to be because some people might get counselling that identifies their guilt and shame and depression as having it's root in their inability to question the damage being done to them by Struthers church and teachings. According to the experiences of people on this forum that could be the root of the emotional and sometimes psychological problems for which some, at least, seem to need serious medication.

Its all very well for Mrs Gault to say “you need counselling” but if that counselling later indicates that the person had problems because of an unhealthy belief in the infallibility of the Struthers way then what would her advice be?

And Cbarb is correct in that the degree of Struthers pastoral involvement in people lives is based not on their membership or faithfulness to the organisation but how much your leader likes you. So my question, Squareone, after the suggestion of counselling for the needy person was anything done by Mrs Gault to make it available to the person? Or was this not someone the leader wanted to spend any more time on?

If not Latigo have this quote in one of their early articles about the need for the Struthers church leaders to be honest enough to let people know where they stand. They suggest the leader tells each person in their congregation one of two things:

1            I believe God has placed you in my congregation for a reason and I want you to get all the help I can give you to develop your life in Him. We should meet together and seek to plan for the deepening of your spiritual life, identify and make space in this church to develop your ministries and gifts and seek to understand what your needs of me as your Pastor are, to help you find fulfilment for all your human need at every level in Christ.

or
 
2            I am not drawn to you. I do not regard you as someone I have any feeling of pastoral care for. If you improve you attitude and performance in the following ways  ____________________ I may find I am interested in being involved in your spiritual walk at some time in the future. If you want to attend meetings at my church in the meantime, that is okay, but whether you do or not will make little difference to me.


I would agree this is exactly what needs to happen. The leaders probably won't do it but the church members should speak to their own church leaders and ask – “leader, which one of these two am I to you?”

Personally I wish my church leader had told me years earlier the truth - she was happy to take my money but no longer remotely interested in having me in her church. Looking back I now see she wasn't remotely interested in how my Christian life was going for about 8 years before I left and she effectively stopped speaking to me for about the last 4 years.

As I say they lowered our expectations. I now know real pastors simply couldn't behave like that. Real pastors actually care about all those God has placed in their churches. First indicator is they spend some time with everyone not all their time with some.

Quote
squareone

What about the other thing? Can Christians be homes for demons?

On the other question – 98 to 99% of the Christian world does not believe Christians can be possessed by demons. Neither interestingly do the leaders of Kirkby Christian Fellowship who are roundly criticised in a very popular thread on this forum for being controlling, in deep error and causing people massive psychological damage. Yet even they split from involvement with Struthers Memorial Church in the mid 1990s over the issue of their inability to agree with the Stuthers teaching that Christians could be possessed by demons. By all accounts Cheryl and Diana fell out at a camp quite vocally and dramatically over this..............

So the point being it is a very, very marginal belief even among Pentecostals and even among those involved in exorcism. Struthers have never presented a biblical argument in any book or sermon for this belief – they just think they know it's true. Special knowledge of the “spiritual realm” not covered by teaching from the bible is something exorcism ministries claim a lot.

With this Struthers is placing itself in a very extreme theological position, which in a way is quite funny to watch as they simultaneously try to convince potential fee paying parents looking at the school that they are in fact really a middle ground mainstream church.

As a very recent example of this in the new blog by the Cumbernauld church leader, advertising the many Struthers outreaches now on the go, the word “exorcism” has not yet been used - however the word “fun” appears quite a lot.