Quote
ThePetitor

( quoting Latigo )

Clive will be able to confirm that there was no connection between his first post – the second on the forum - and the start of Latigo214. They were simultaneous expressions of the same genuine concern which had remained unshared publicly for far too long.

Yes I can confirm there is no connection at all. I dont actually know when the Latigo site started and would be interested to know just out of interest. And thus - putting aside the allusions to a movie that to my memory had a scene alleged to contain homeo-erotic allusions, involving Tony Curtis - and - i think - Kirk douglas in a roma jacuzzi - I am - alas - definitely NOT Latigo !.

Quote
ThePetitor
( quoting Latigo )
There is also growing evidence that the online scrutiny is having an effect both on the leadership and the attendees of Struthers.

Encouraging if true. It would be good to know if this evidence comes via direct feedback via personal ( or email ) contact from currently active SMC members to a latigo poster, or is just reflecting the sermon which mentioned this forum and some "chatter" within SMC that would naturally have occurred for a while after this sermon. For example one can imagine that for a while, after SMC members got to know or view the forum, that there would have been a period of group "pitying" of the apostates, along with thinly veiled personality assassinations couched in spiritual language. my guess is that someone will have done a count of the posters here, figured that the majority if not all of the latigo crew also post here, hence one is only talking of a "tiny" amount of dissenters.
And that life there has returned to "normal". One should never underestimate the collective power of group-think, cognitive dissonance and rationalisation.

It is telling however that Latigo is having some trouble obtaining sermon recordings after the Struthers site stopped allowing their sermons to be downloaded. So this suggests they do not have contact with anyone who is sympathetic to their cause but still "inside" struthers. Otherwise they would be able to obtain CDs or MP3's of the latest sermons and continue making their commentaries on those too.


Latigo seems to be implying that I claim there is some problem with being a Latigo contributor and also a Rick Ross poster ( nearly said RickRoll there - close call ! ) but i dont think that at all. Its all good dudes!.

But consider is this :- how it would be if NOBODY on this forum had a nitname at all - or if EVERY poster in this thread had the same nitname - It would make the kind of conversation that followed a bit ridiculous and certainly cumbersome practically !.

I wish the latigo creators all the best with their site and it was an big and encouraging surprise to discover it so soon after my first post. But think about this, there will come a point when something on the site gets criticised. rightly or wrongly by someone here. Maybe it is just a factual error that needs correcting. Or some minor point of nuance needing - here comes that Latigo word - wait for it...... clarification ! .
Wouldnt it then be just a wee bit silly to have - for example, ThePetitor then make a post here stating something like " I just sent an email to the latigo webmaster and got back this reply - "...xyz..... " , when it would in fact just be simpler all round for latigo, in order to continue keeping any connections to current posters here hidden, just create a new seperate username here named Latigo. That way latigo can reply to any poster here directly.

So here - to reiterate again what i said above - I think it might be helpful for the latigo crew to just create a new user here called Latigo or something similar.

I have to say though, I think we should be realistic and honest about overall numbers involved who share our concerns and maybe latigo can clarify this too - but my guess is that there arent a great "many more" unknown dissenters hiding behind the latigo site other than those already here. Maybe its no more than a poster here, plus their spouse, or two ex members who were friends, and most likely only one of those actually does the bulk of the writing and webmastering. But in the spirit of honesty - just like the latigo site has to my recollection - brought SMC to task for "bigging itself up" in terms of how large it is numerically ( whereas in actual fact considering the number of churches it has, it is numerically tiny and a bit of a soul-winning failure - 300 - in a supposedly dynamic spirit filled church filled with members who are the "salt of the earth" - "lights shining upen a hill" - a people presumably encouraged not to "hide their light under a bushel" - the lords very 'anointed" - over how many decades ? 50 give me a break ! ) neither should the latigo posse be suggesting a "many" behind its veil that in reality isnt a many.


I should end by agreeing however that all of this really is of quite minor importance compared to the much bigger issues raised here. I only
raised all of this in the first place for issues of practicality. I dont see any need for - what are effectively multiple layers of anonymity.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2011 06:59PM by Clive.

Just read this article in the guarding today.

Brazilian televangelist tells followers to embark on media 'fast' :

Subhead: "Bishop Edir Macedo's request to refrain from television, radio or the web criticised as diversion tactic from bad press"

[www.guardian.co.uk]

Ring bells fo anybody ?

Well indeed. Media avoidance as a thinly veiled cover for reality avoidance.

Oh, and does anyone know if iPads count as "luxury goods"?

On another note, I was thinking of running a competition to see who could best predict some of the messages at the Struthers camp that is about to take place. I will start it off with:

"Isn't it great that we are being persecuted. That proves revival is on its way."

and

"They don't understand the deep things of God."

ThePetitor

No doubt there will be sermons to help persuede their flock that they are innocent of all charges of abuse on this forum. We will be made out to be ither liars or mentally ill that is what they usally say about people who cry wolf!

The scriptures that came to my mind were:

"They went out from us, but they really did not belong to us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."1st John 2:19. In this case they were right, but not in the way the leaders think.

Jesus said: "but everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or mothers or fathers or children or fields for my sake will recieve a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life" Matthew 19:29. I have no doubt that this scripture will apply to many of the attendees in Struthers. Only thing is these sacrifices that have been made were not made for the gospel, but for the leaders of Struthers Church, who are abusing the children of God.

"If you to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is you do not belong to the world. That is why the world hates you. John 15:19. Even people in the world, as in non Christian, hate abuse. What about the Christians? should they as followers of Jesus Christ not also hate it and raise their voice against it. We are not against our brothers and sisters in Christ; but we hate the abuse done in His name, against them.

Jesus said: " If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you...because they do not know Him who sent me". John 15 20.
Is it not the case that most of the ones who have left Struthers Church, left because of the persecution of the leaders.

Susie

Having stumbled on this forum ( thankfully) and realised that the reason SMC left me "cold"ultimately was maybe not MY fault but things THEY are doing wrong, it makes me wonder how many others that i have assumed to be genuine representatives of God are in fact "in error".

Clare

I think there are a lot of mistakes out there. The question is whether there is the opportunity to question beliefs or behaviors and whether leaders accept they are not infalible, and try to correct any mistakes they make. To me, that is what is different about struthers. They ignore and distort scripture but do not allow anyone to question.

Think about the parable of the lost sheep for example. Scripture is 100% clear they a caring shephard will try to find a member of the flock that strays. But are struthers members allowed to question leaders over their actions? Can they go to them and ask why they do not obey this scripture? No, they can't.

Yes, others will be mistaken, but you can explore that, take the good and leave the bad. We all know Peter, the leader of the early church, made at least one mistake, but others were allowed to criticize, and that allowed it to be corrected.

The idea of listening to a complaint if there are two or three witnesses is another verse co. Leniently ignored I. Struthers. If anyone reading this is at camp and has a question about how someone has been treated, then do what scripture tells you to do and talk to others to see if there are other witnesses. If there are, all you have to do is speak to the leaders and they will have to take action

So, is that how it will work, or will you get told NOT to talk to each other, not to bring complaints? You have to decide which is scriptural, you cannot just follow blindly, that makes you less than Christian, and even less than human.

Hi All
I have stumbled across this by accident whilst looking for something else. As a former member of SMC I dont believe that they are a cult. However, having read through most of the post here, totally agree with many of the post here. Having been "Saved" into this church at the age of 10, I grew up in one of the outlying branches. Despite this fact, I guarantee that not 1 person outwith the branch I was in knew my name. Indeed when I visited the main church in Glasgow, someone asked if I was a new member (this was after being in SMC for more that 20 years!).

I was deeply hurt by many people in this church and, whilst not wishing to pull down any fellow brothers or sisters in Christ, I do believe that SMC need to look within their own walls before they can grow and move on. I went from being an extremely happy and outgoing child and a deeply surly and withdrawn teenager solely because of the treatment received in SMC. This carried into my adult life causing me to have a deep mistrust of people and transferring that into a deep inability to trust God. I was so fortunate to have a close friend invite me to their church where I met amazing and wonderful people. I have been able to work through my issues and, with the love and support of my new friends, learnt to trust again. As a result, my life in God has been able to go deeper. Indeed I am now a youth leader and am deeply active in my church.

SMC do need to look at how the treat members and realise that "naming and shaming" from the pulpit is not in anyway an acceptable way to run church. The culture of fear does indeed make many people insecure and feel that they are unable to question anything preached from the pulpit. Many times I've personally been told that I should " just get on it with and not question " when I challenged leadership indeed being forced to preach when I was clearly not wanting to or able to do this. Indeed once I heard it preach that if someone, after leaving SMC, says that they are growing more, you should question whether they are settling for lower walk in God. There is definitely an elitist attitude there that they are THE church and anywhere else is just not as good. Surely, as long as God is at the helm of any church following the gospel, it doesn't matter where you go as long as you are growing in God and are reaching out to those outside of the church to those who haven't heard the good news. Indeed I don't think my whole time in SMC, I heard them saying anything about going out on the streets or supporting charities. I'm also betting that most of those who tithe to SMC realise how much of that goes towards to up keep of Cedars School!

Since leaving SMC and moving to another church, I have grown so much more and am now indeed ready and able to do so much more now that I am able to grow and become exactly what God intended me to be. Those who have been deeply hurt by practices here should take courage from this. I know personally now that God can and indeed does help you to work through problems encountered by your times in SMC.

I am willing to reply directly to anyone if they want to clarifly and of these issues. Doubt any of the leader from SMC will reply though - they prefer just to shout from their pulpits and put fear in the hearts of those who attend. I hope that this doesn't sound like bitterness and I have moved on from these feelings and now just have nothing but concern for those who are struggling to deal with this. Indeed I still have family who attend SMC albeit on one of the main branches.

Hope this helps those who have been affected and, as I can see from this forum, you are not alone.

take card and God bless you all x

Hi scottishlassie2011, and welcome to the forum. Your experience seems to fit what is becoming a very predictable pattern. "badly treated" and "fear" along with a received message that all is well and you are the only one with any questions. Thankfully you have, like others, moved so far away from "the one true message as imparted by the apostles of struthers" that you can be useful to God.

As I read back over the testimonies on this site, that also seems to be a pattern. After leaving struthers, there is often a period of initial confusion and withdrawal, but the person then turns so far from struthers that they actually become useful to God. That is certainly what I found, and I think that might just be the most damning indictment of all- that leaving struthers increases your usefulness to God.

Great also you, like many others, are willing to help people struggling with any of the issues raised here, or going through any similar experiences. My hope is that the testimonies on this forum and the opportunity for a range of personal contacts will make the journey easier for some. I certainly hope some find it easier than it was for me, as I suffered considerable hurt inflicted from those in struthers.

To those that are still in struthers, just think about the emperors new clothes and remember there is now considerable support out there.

God bless!

There are two new excellent articles on the Latigo site. Both have been an absolute eye-opener for me. I had no idea of the information contained therein regarding the church finances, loans, accounts, employees, which ones get paid and who are church "members". I don't remember any of this information being made available at church meetings or announced from the platform by leaders. I knew the Cedars School obtained charitable status but I didn't know that this applied also to SMC as a church and that in fact, it was all one company with charitable status. We were told that the School being a charity meant that now it could apply for grants and fund-raise etc. Nobody ever explained what being a "member" of SMC was in the light of what Latigo has uncovered regarding the special few. I am, to put it plainly, shocked. How can a so-called Christian holiness church walk around covering over everything they are doing? Hiding things from not just the general public, or school parents, but also from the members, you and me, as we were once. Is it any wonder they don't like people asking questions.

Excuse me, but where exactly is the smoking gun in these supposedly “shocking” revelations about their finances ?.

I took a look through these two new articles and frankly - I think if any of the SMC leaders can be bothered to read this stuff they’re probably
laughing their heads off - if not just yawning. I’ve never seen such nitpicking and pointless pedantry in my life!.

And i speak as someone who is in no way approving of the SMC, as you all know.

But seriously “latigos”. If you think just going through annual accounts with some nitpicking toothcomb and adding the odd “note” here or then - is going to
have the attention of the SMC youre seriously deluded.

So in 2009 the church had a few hundred thousand in debt ? so many of the leaders turn out to be involved in running the finances too - big surprise.

Honestly guys LESS IS MORE !. I cannot see anything here to cause shock. As the police say - nothing to see here - move on.

Just raising so called “questions” all over the place is frankly just pissing in the wind. Get real chaps. The way the Latigo web site is starting to
pad out makes me wonder if the person/persons behind this site are more screwed up than the SMC is itself.

I really am beginning to think that people in the SMC, having taken the odd look at this latigo site are just having a good bemused snigger at it all, and its
overblown pompous self importance.

And NO - I repeat I am no SMC sympathiser, but get honestly, this Latigo site really does not paint our concerns and grievances here in a good light.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2011 06:08AM by Clive.