[ In fact I would say that even Clive (who has suspiciously gone quiet since I asked if he had a vested interest in the I-pad issue) as a self-proclaimed atheist, is probably more holy than the leaders of SMC!! ]

Definitely not, if "Holy" means the SMC style avoiding things "of the world" !. I check in from time to time just to see if new posters have joined with something interesting and new to offer - new developments in the Diana saga or signs of more people leaving or a change, scandal or rebellion at "high command" ( seems unlikely ). But do so less and less these days as it mostly appears just to be a few old regulars posting merrily away with great gusto.

No vested interest in iPads or anything SMC uses. I would have thought that by now, several pages and many posts later, that "iPad-gate" would have stopped being brought up but seems not.

Must be a "slow news day" thing.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2013 08:26PM by Clive.

Hi Clive

There you are!! Just testing, see what I mean about mind control? It's not so difficult to prompt someone to action, is it?

Thanks for proving my point - :-)

Biiig love and huge hugggggs
God Bless xxxx

btw, I was using the word 'Holy' in that sentence in relation to being wholly committed and true to your beliefs (it was really tongue-in-cheek)

Rensil the PVG scheme is implemented across the board. I didn't know that disclosures were always done, even back in the day. I do know that our youth leaders were not shifty with our parents. They'd often come in for a cuppa and chat. Nothing was secretive or furtive. My knowledge of ways and practices of smc are apparently wrong, or at least out-or-date.
However, I have only just told my dad about us bunches of kids sitting about praying in tongues and some other stuff. Had he known some of the stories we were witnessing he would have banned us from attending. The disclosure system is far from perfect or all-inclusive, but it changes as it needs to.
On camps, I remember one guy straight out of Bar L, who was being helped and he was a nice guy, but he had obiously brought his meds with him and when he started slurring and drivelling, all us kids lost interest pretty quick. There is always risk, but churches should help people reintegrate, but how can any system of disclosure apply to camps. I'm sure this guy was under someone's special care, but he could have been a wild card.
Also I remember one poor guy getting a demon driven out. Now to anyone involved in child protection the scenario raises all kinds of worries. I was 10, maybe 11, (there were much younger...) and we were all engaged in praying peacefully while the leaders moved among us drawn to whoever. One adult had hands laid on him and the usual crescendo of encouragement ensued. This time it became a cacaphony. This poor guy was screaming maniacally (It took Mr B and at least 2 other hefty types all their strength to remove him to a side vestible, where nothing was really muffled anyway...) but after what seemed like ages, the guy appeared, composed and started testifying about the demon that had just been driven out.
Take this account anywhere and (even if you do believe that was a demonic incident) which, let's be honest as collective grown-ups here, the guy was probably suffering a psychological illness and should have been in professional care...and not in full view of wiped out kids. It's this kind of thing that remains concerning...
Cbarb, yeah was just going to sum up but you took the words right out of mouth. Great minds? lol
Clive, I hear you. I am not ruling out leadership rebellion. But no matter what, we would hear some more cock-and-bull about why. But please be aware there are many more stories that aren't being told. This forum provides comfort for those who think they alone in their pain.
I want to share some of the stuff I experienced but have held back, mainly because I deluded myself that someone with authority within smc may have had the best of intentions. I hear nothing.
So posts will continue to overlap, maybe even seem repetitive or just not that serious. But this is all aimed at instigating change. It doesn't happen if we all just sit on the sidelines. We have to field the right team at the the right time. Meanwhile it might seem we are going around in circles, but no, we are not. This is just the public outpost. My personal efforts are done using my real id, in the real world. Reporting details here would be self defeating. smc have retained their silence regarding specific complaints.
Meanwhile I, for one, believe this post serves many purposes, what it shouldn't do is eat its own tail. I found a place to share my own experience. Words of encouragement with genuine support have been timely and hugely useful. I also found out just how much damage has yet to surface.
But a general thread I have got stuck on was child-related policies, or stated lack of 'em. That gets me right up. Great gusto you might have witnessed, but is that inappropriate? (cbarb! you were supposed to keep me on thread sweetie..). Clive don't watch here for results, but I am neither a keyboard warrior nor an e-type. I'm just a good citizen, sometimes...
Seriously though, politicians, police, lawyers, education boards (everyone watch their grammar'n'spelling!!) and all manner of relevant people have watched this unfold. The law is an ass and takes time. If rules are being broken regarding kids, it will stop and blame will be needed. If not, great! Job done.
But there are still the past victims and if sharing here helps: I personally endorse it and hope to share myself. I did think before sending Clive. Thought maybe it sounded too militant, but I was about to start whistleblowing and wanted the leadership to know. Anonymous I may be, hiding I am not. Incidentally, their lack of public response comes across as mass confusion. But I felt I owed them a say...silly me.
Anyway, it used to be that if you had nought to hide you had nought to fear. Times change. We want transparency, with our kids we now demand it and the law backs that stance. No one's privacy is more sacred than any child's welfare. End of. Nobody can ignore this now.
If there are people here who can benefit from dissecting their treatment at the hands of smc, I see no harm it, being able to compare notes and make sense of the unresolved. I welcome it. Ultimately the point remains remains. Ruinous leadership, lives blighted. That's the link. I see it throughout the thread. Am I way off base here??
Ifellaway.

Ifellaway - No you're not off base.

Sharing your testimony here is important and I appreciate you doing.

This talk of whistle blowing sounds serious too. Particularly as - yet again - it relates to how SMC leaders are dealing with the youth.
I'm also glad that you're now able to get proper medical and psychiatric help.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2013 08:17AM by Clive.

Hi Ifellaway,

Yes, you're right, sorry sometimes I digress a bit. There is REAL damage done by the use of mind control and hysterics among young people as well as the adults - if not more so, since their minds are so much more pliable. I do remember, while growing up in the church that there were many questionable instances where young folk were present and shouldn't have been.

I have previously posted the experience of the young man having an epileptic fit at one of the camps and I was probably about 13 or 14 then and there were kids younger than me (my brother was one) who were present, similar to the experience you recounted but obviously at a different time. At the time it was scary and was fodder for many nightmares for years later. I do believe that if they had just been truthful and said the guy wasn't well and could we all just quietly leave the hall - that incident would not have been so traumatic because even kids understand illness. But the hysteria which followed the guy's collapse was enough to scare anyone out their wits and I'm sure I wasn't the only kid left with nightmares about that one!

There were many times that kids were involved in hysterical sessions of praying in tongues and hands being laid on young folk. It was actively encouraged by the time you were out of Sunday School.

I don't know if this is still the case today or if there is an age limit to who can be present during the more, shall we say, fervent worshipping. But there weren't so many safeguards in place, for kids, when we were younger. Especially at the youth camps, when most youngsters were there without their parents.

But if no one comes forward who is presently involved and has grown up in the church, do we know if young kids are still being subjected to this – and just as important how do SMC leaders' beliefs translate in the classrooms of Cedars. Considering the teaching staff all come from two of the families in authority in the church - I can imagine the subtle mind control going on there.

You say it yourself, Ifellaway, you never told your folks about the types of 'meetings' you sat through when you were young - until recently. This is how the damage is done - the subtle mind control, which you don't even notice, makes you less likely to divulge information about the goings on in the church. This is also why so many people who went through SMC doors in their tender years became somewhat screwed up young adults - not all I hasten to add but very many have had a hard job making sense of things since their involvement with the church. For some, it has had catastrophic consequences and it is extremely worrying that these types of practices may still be going on. And if young folk are still being encouraged to shun their own families if they don't attend the church - this too is very dangerous mind control and was certainly around when I was in the church. Is it the same today? I think, from accounts here, it does seem to be so.

But can this be proved beyond doubt, even by examination from outside bodies?

There are many testimonies here to mental and spiritual abuse and the struggles people have had to come to terms with the damage and destruction of their belief systems. All are coping with it in their various ways and some aren't coping too well really.

As you say, this is just the tip of the ice-berg - there have been many hundreds of people who have left SMC behind and gone on to fruitful lives elsewhere but there have also been many of those hundreds who have continued to be confused and haunted by their involvement with SMC.

It is extremely important to try to make sure that this kind of treatment, especially of children and young people, is not happening today, or if it is that it is stopped immediately before any more young lives are damaged. Especially if it is also happening in the school. It is quite scary that these people are running a school for young tots right up to high school!! Knowing what I do of their, in-church teaching, I just cannot believe that this is not spilling out to their daily jobs.

After all they preach that you live, breathe, eat and work the church so why wouldn't they be doing the same thing themselves and be bringing SMC theology into the classroom? It would be interesting to know how the families of pupils, past and present, have been affected by their child being educated in Cedars, if at all. I mean it might be very positive but I'd be interested to hear. I did try to talk to a former pupil who is a friend of my son's but we couldn't get in touch with them - so I still don't know of anyone who has actually gone through Cedars.

But how can you prove mind control? How much can outside interested parties actually do to ensure the sort of safeguards which would prevent these tactics being used in the future. And how do you regulate the ages of those subjected to the hysteria in some services? It's not an easy problem to solve because, on the surface everything may look OK, if a bit shaky financially. But all the correct forms and checks may well be in place and proper (I don't know if they are or not but I'm assuming they are, since I'm sure they couldn't be that remiss). However, what sort of forms can you fill in to prove whether or not you are using underhand techniques to control adults and kids alike?

Can we make a difference to how these people think and act - I very much doubt it, since their whole lives revolve around it!

Will there be enough concerns to be able to do something positive about it?

I hope so!

As always biiiig love and huge hugggggs to all
God Bless
xxx

Cbarb, you were asking and wondering if being brought up in SMC and going through the Cedars School might have had negative effects on young people.

From what I know, children who attended Cedars in its initial years when it only went up to S2 (age 14 approx), had to then, after S2, move on to attend an ordinary state school to continue their education near where they lived. I am aware that some kids found this transition traumatic and felt ill-prepared for going out into the wide teenage world and into the sphere of a large comprehensive school. I remember one teenager saying, "It's hard being with normal people now." In particular, they found it hard to relate normally to the opposite sex. OK, most of them survived but its notable that a good number of them abandoned the Christian teaching which they'd had so much of. Fair enough, one could say that now they are free to think for themselves and make their own choices, but sadly there have been some unhappy occurrences and regrets. I know more than one who has needed counselling. So I believe there have definitely been damaging effects.

Re children witnessing deliverance sessions, I have NEVER seen this happen at any other church or Christian ministry. Everyone might not agree with me, but I believe deliverance is necessary sometimes and I know there are churches in the UK who offer this ministry. But those Ive seen ministering never point people out in meetings and never chide them publicly about their sins and shortcomings, as they do in SMC. People would be prayed with in private to avoid embarrassment to them and to prevent fear in others, and NEVER in front of children or teenagers under 18. I don't think the situation in SMC has changed, Cbarb, because deliverance is carried out at the back of the meeting-hall on Wednesday nights at Camps. Older Kids could be milling around after their kids' meetings had finished, if their parents hadn't gone to supervise them. And SMC still run Youth Camps where the parents aren't present.

So I agree, that, even with everything being done legally, there can still be risk and dangers to young people and mind control of unsuspecting people. That's why we need to keep posting here, exposing things and encouraging people to share their own story. Otherwise, nobody will know what's really going on.

Hi guys

Sorry, I've been quiet for a bit to see if anyone else had anything to add to what's already been said. Thanks, Rensil, for some insight into the results of a Cedars education. I would still be interested to know how many of the pupils leaving Cedars went on to Uni or have managed to be any more successful than the kids with a state education. I mean, what are the parents actually paying for? A better education or a more restricted and naïve environment.

I had a state education but my whole young life was spent inside the church, six days a week and three times on a Sunday. I KNOW how desperately naïve I was when I finally left the confines of the church and tried to make my way in the REAL world.

If the kids going through the church just now, whether in Cedars or not, are being as sheltered and stuffed full of nonsense in the way we were then God help them when they begin their independent lives. I'm not saying that kids should be allowed to run amok and do as they please but they do need some LIFE skills as well as a BALANCED and healthy respect and love for their creator and His creations.

Young people gain LIFE skills from mixing with their peers, in all walks of life, they learn by their mistakes in exactly the same way as we continue to learn as adults. It is unfortunate that kids are still being encouraged NOT to mix with their peers unless they're part of the church. In addition, if there are still so many meetings, the kids won't get the chance to meet with their peers outside of the church anyway.

How can this possibly prepare kids to become adults in a dog-eat-dog type of work environment?

Of course, God helps you when you ask him to but he also expects you to put in the required work to help yourself to get there - God gives you the ENERGY and the ENCOURAGEMENT but the actions have to be your own. If kids are not prepared for the hard graft in a, not so nice, world they are less well-armed and ready for the 'outside' world and there can be such a huge learning curve that, for some, it is an insurmountable task to become integrated into the REAL world.

Where can you turn, when you are at that lowest point and the only response you get from your church is that you need deliverance, or your faith is not strong enough, or you need to pray more loudly and be more repentant.

Small wonder, many young folk who left the church sunk into the oblivion of drink and drugs.

I dare say that SMC view it as a good thing to keep their kids so sheltered from all the 'badness' in the world but I think they have forgotten what it was like to be teenagers and young adults themselves. Although I suppose the difference is that most of the leaders and their families work in Cedars so they don't really integrate with the REAL world themselves anyway.

I think I'm correct in stating that NONE of the present leaders was brought up, from infancy, through the church and I think the youngest any of them was when they first attended the church was about 16 or 17, to the best of my recollection. They therefore have no idea what the more questionable practices actually do to much younger people, with way more pliable minds!

I used to feel like I must be going insane because I didn't know how to relate to people properly and I made a lot of very stupid and naïve mistakes because I didn't understand that sometimes people don't have your best interests at heart. Even now, I'm not a strong person in confrontations and prefer to body-swerve anything which might lead to a confrontation. Although I'm not a complete woose, I did have to stand up for myself a few years ago - body swerving was unfortunately not an option - and I managed to give as good as I got but I was shattered afterwards and I hope I never have to do it again! :-)

The thing is that God remains with you whether you're in the church or not and He's always there when you need Him because He's in EVERYTHING around you, he can't be confined inside church walls. That's the ultimate lesson that the Bible teaches us - He's in EVERYTHING and EVERYONE and EVERY BEING and EVERY PLANET etc. in the whole universe!! That's just awesome!!!

So you see, leaving SMC isn't a sin - it's a RE-BIRTH into the rest of the universe - the ultimate WAKE UP call!!

Isn't it fantastic that God is so vast, you can't ever actually escape from Him (even if you wanted to!!) Can I get an AMEN!!!! :-)

I certainly believe that something needs to be done to prevent any more kids ending up as screwed up as some of us were - and some are still finding it hard to recover their minds and faith, many many years later. If we can prevent this from happening to even ONE more young person then this forum will have been worth the blood, sweat and tears on every page.

As always biiiiiig love and huge hugggggs to all
God Bless xxx

Cbarb, you mention the current leaders and when they would have first entered SMC.

Well, the main leader of Struthers now, Mrs Grace Gault, will have been in the church since babyhood because it was her father, along with Miss Taylor, who started SMC. So she won't have known any other way of life apart from life within the close confines of Struthers and its strict separationist teachings. Her sister, Mary Black was in the same position. Is it any wonder then, that they passed on the teachings and beliefs which had been taught to them, with all the accompanying condemnation and guilt if you don't measure up to the high standards of holiness which are presented to you and you're told that this is what God is looking for in your life, in order for you to "make the grade". Also, a tightly controlled environment with a few leaders telling you what to do, becomes the norm.

I guess it's like saying, those who are spiritually abused are likely to go on to spiritually abuse others, as is the case with other forms of abusive behaviour. Those who have been controlled go on to control others over whom they have power.

I think that even adults who leave SMC have to go through a period of adjustment as they start to live a more normal life within society and they have to change their attitudes to others and learn to cope with the day to day affairs of life and work, after being in a restricted and confining church environment where the folk you mixed with were all fellow-SMC members. I know this happened to me and to others with whom I'm acquainted. But the positive feelings and new sense of freedom which eventually comes is so life-changing and is for the better in every way.

We'll just have to hope that more young people see the truth about this church that they are in. We know many read this Forum and Latigo, therefore they can find out the facts now, about what has happened to people when they were SMC members and why they've left this church. Lets hope and pray that more will have the courage to leave.

Hi Rensil

Sorry about that, but I didn't think Grace, Allison or Mary Black had ever gotten married and I thought that Grace Gault was a different person and just a friend of the Black family. Perhaps I'm remembering it wrong but I was quite young when I first became aware of Grace Gault and she was a young woman then but I never connected her with the Black family other than as a family friend. I mean I don't ever remember seeing a Mr. Gault?? Which would be a bit strange if Grace Gault were a member of the family with the highest authority in the church.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification but I'm sure she must be the only one who has been brought up in SMC or with SMC teaching; so already has a warped view of how Christians should act towards others and what is acceptable for the very young to be witnessing.

Biiig love and huge hugggggs
God Bless xxx