Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
RedRoad
()
Date: February 23, 2025 07:40AM
This forum is keeping itself very healthily alive at the moment, which is fantastic. The diversity of thinking may in itself be mental healing for many of us. I can see several different angles for me to come back to at another time, by which point, there will no doubt be another bucket-load to think through! And I've still to answer GirlWiston's three questions from p216 - is this forum therapy or homework?
Thanks Al Duff for being willing to put yourself out there with differing perspectives on what has been our big debate of the past 2 weeks. I think it would be fair to say you relish debate and are not afraid to go against the flow. This is a good thing, it makes whoever is interacting with you work hard to refine their thinking. 101's summary above resonates with me as to where we reached - two opposing views of the same person, but I think all agree that much harm has experienced within a small, confined environment.
Lintar I hear your pain. "When we left ... no one came to check on our welfare." Within a plethora of Struthers related events during my child and teenage years, my own family received one particularly severe wounding, and I could use the same phrase "no one came to check on our welfare". The only ones who did, did not attend Struthers, so I have some understanding of what you write. For me, wrestling with the legacy of emotional pain (twice a year when on holiday :) ), reading, discussing with other "born into it" peers and siblings when we catch up, and latterly, discovering this forum, these have all slowly released the pain for me. But everyone's journey is different. This forum tells you, "You are not alone, and we hear your story, we hear your pain and anger".
Amazing Grace Thank you for your thoughtful post. You are another person who writes and I think - "oh there's something for me to chew over". I don't think you can beat "by their fruits you shall know them" as a true standard to test reality. I'm looking at myself and can see where I am short ...
But what an insightful question you have put out there: "did the apparent gifts go hand in hand with fruits?"
I would say my experience of Struthers over-control in everyday life and over-influence in family matters would cause me to answer "No. The opposite, harm was done". But I have family members who would just as firmly dispute my answer. You cannot see it until you do.
Your mention of Westlife concert, "hands in the air…singing with all their might…some emotional", and Black Watch pointing us to Derren Brown, reminds of one question I had thought to put out to past leaders who are contributing to the forum, and perhaps Lesley you can also comment professionally (bit of a bold ask I know!, so you can leave be if too much, or come back to in your own time)
So now we have multiple questions to answer - GirlWiston p216, Amazing Grace and mine on this page. Answers in due course please :)
Thanks Al Duff for being willing to put yourself out there with differing perspectives on what has been our big debate of the past 2 weeks. I think it would be fair to say you relish debate and are not afraid to go against the flow. This is a good thing, it makes whoever is interacting with you work hard to refine their thinking. 101's summary above resonates with me as to where we reached - two opposing views of the same person, but I think all agree that much harm has experienced within a small, confined environment.
Lintar I hear your pain. "When we left ... no one came to check on our welfare." Within a plethora of Struthers related events during my child and teenage years, my own family received one particularly severe wounding, and I could use the same phrase "no one came to check on our welfare". The only ones who did, did not attend Struthers, so I have some understanding of what you write. For me, wrestling with the legacy of emotional pain (twice a year when on holiday :) ), reading, discussing with other "born into it" peers and siblings when we catch up, and latterly, discovering this forum, these have all slowly released the pain for me. But everyone's journey is different. This forum tells you, "You are not alone, and we hear your story, we hear your pain and anger".
Amazing Grace Thank you for your thoughtful post. You are another person who writes and I think - "oh there's something for me to chew over". I don't think you can beat "by their fruits you shall know them" as a true standard to test reality. I'm looking at myself and can see where I am short ...
But what an insightful question you have put out there: "did the apparent gifts go hand in hand with fruits?"
I would say my experience of Struthers over-control in everyday life and over-influence in family matters would cause me to answer "No. The opposite, harm was done". But I have family members who would just as firmly dispute my answer. You cannot see it until you do.
Your mention of Westlife concert, "hands in the air…singing with all their might…some emotional", and Black Watch pointing us to Derren Brown, reminds of one question I had thought to put out to past leaders who are contributing to the forum, and perhaps Lesley you can also comment professionally (bit of a bold ask I know!, so you can leave be if too much, or come back to in your own time)
- [*] Is there any factual knowledge of trainee leaders being taught control techniques by mentors?
[*] Were American or Australian TV evangelists studied to bring in the same effects?
[*] Did anyone get sent to Pensecola or Toronto Airport Church or other mega church leadership schools to bring back control, experience techniques?
[*] Or has it just been gut instinct about how to get a good experience achieved, or how to scare people into remaining controlled?
So now we have multiple questions to answer - GirlWiston p216, Amazing Grace and mine on this page. Answers in due course please :)
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Gibbon
()
Date: February 24, 2025 01:36AM
Well looky here.. I posted on here yonks ago, but details of my log-in have long since been cast into the sea of my forgetfulness. Felt the urge to pop back up again, seeing posts from comrades of a similar vintage.
SMC sure does leave you with a complex - to say the least. Especially if (at peak) you were rarely out of the place.
Some highlights..
Warned (by Mama Speirs) about the dangers of seemingly harmless worldly songs which open with lines like ‘hello darkness, my old friend’..
Told that I was ‘a good boy really’ (again by Mama Speirs, and the other half of Team 88) when faced with the charge of being (harmlessly, and largely unsuccessfully) amorous towards young ladies of my own age.
And.. to round it off… Harry-Met-Sally-ing my baptism in the holy spirit.. just to make the interminable hand-laying come to an end. The layers of said hands seemingly none the wiser.. ‘I’ll have what he’s having’, hollered a passing inmate..
The good news is that this complex CAN be overcome. I am now a very content non-believer. Suspect I never truly did believe. I have my own philosophical approach to life and its mysteries.. one which is rooted in kindness and not in fear.
And my goodness do I love my Saturday nights.
SMC sure does leave you with a complex - to say the least. Especially if (at peak) you were rarely out of the place.
Some highlights..
Warned (by Mama Speirs) about the dangers of seemingly harmless worldly songs which open with lines like ‘hello darkness, my old friend’..
Told that I was ‘a good boy really’ (again by Mama Speirs, and the other half of Team 88) when faced with the charge of being (harmlessly, and largely unsuccessfully) amorous towards young ladies of my own age.
And.. to round it off… Harry-Met-Sally-ing my baptism in the holy spirit.. just to make the interminable hand-laying come to an end. The layers of said hands seemingly none the wiser.. ‘I’ll have what he’s having’, hollered a passing inmate..
The good news is that this complex CAN be overcome. I am now a very content non-believer. Suspect I never truly did believe. I have my own philosophical approach to life and its mysteries.. one which is rooted in kindness and not in fear.
And my goodness do I love my Saturday nights.
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Phoebe 2
()
Date: February 24, 2025 11:59PM
Girl Wiston -- You'll forgive me for not responding to your questions as I feel they don't really apply in my case, as someone who was only a visitor to Struthers, mainly at Camps and Conferences (even though over many years), so I didn't really have any experience of the total SMC regime and the difficulties of extricating myself from it that others have had. (I sent you a PM by the way when I finally managed to fathom how that system works!). In spite of the fact that I wasn't a bona fide member I did nevertheless struggle mightily in deconstructing and reconstructing the belief system those visits had formed, as I've explained in previous posts. So I can identify completely with Amazing Grace when she says, "Truth can be very hard to face, especially when it means that you may have spent a big part of childhood and / or adulthood believing in a move of the Holy Spirit, only to discover that it may not have been as real as you have been led to believe.
However I'm hugely grateful that the process of examining every aspect of what I believed (again and again through the years) has at no point led me to doubt the foundational, historic facts of the Christian faith, nor my personal relationship with Christ -- just the opposite in fact.
. . . And as part of that whole process (to repeat myself yet again) what a relief to discover all of 15 years ago, through this forum, that I've by no means been alone in my struggles.
However I'm hugely grateful that the process of examining every aspect of what I believed (again and again through the years) has at no point led me to doubt the foundational, historic facts of the Christian faith, nor my personal relationship with Christ -- just the opposite in fact.
. . . And as part of that whole process (to repeat myself yet again) what a relief to discover all of 15 years ago, through this forum, that I've by no means been alone in my struggles.
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Phoebe 2
()
Date: February 25, 2025 01:24AM
Re-reading some of your posts. RedRoad & AmazingGrace, it occurs to me I've not thanked you for your kind comments re the painful loss of certain friendships formed over the years with SMC folk - I think I sense a lot of empathy there? At the same time, Lintar's comments (p.220. Feb. 22) about the abnormality of relationships in SMC prompted me to take a fresh look at those friendships. I think under different circumstances they certainly had the potential to be warm and lasting relationships, as has been the case, e.g., for well over 40 years with former missionary colleagues. The problem was - and is - that unlike other friendships where it's possible to differ on a whole range of issues and still remain firm friends, that somehow does not seem to be an option.
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Liz25
()
Date: February 26, 2025 01:42AM
In response to Gibbon ( welcome back!), the interesting thing about the leaders being suspicious of & warning about worldly music is that that specific song Gibbon mentioned, ‘Hello darkness my old friend…’ was written by Paul Simon to demonstrate the strong bond of friendship between himself and a student friend who was going blind.
It kind of highlighted to me a whole lot of other pointless rules.
And while AS was banning you from normal chat to girls she was planning the whole fiasco of the church school, amongst other blunders.
I did enjoy your humour!
It kind of highlighted to me a whole lot of other pointless rules.
And while AS was banning you from normal chat to girls she was planning the whole fiasco of the church school, amongst other blunders.
I did enjoy your humour!
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
GirlWiston
()
Date: February 26, 2025 05:13AM
Dear Phoebe 2
Absolutely no problem & no worries. I was just trying to provoke some ideas & totally understand that they may not apply or for some not comfortable to answer right now. Eg I cannot answer any of RedRoad’s questions - not my domaine ;-)
Welcome Gibbon. I don’t think you were the first to be warned about that beautiful song. I seem to remember Hugh Black discouraging a guy @Wiston camp back in the day from listening to Simon & Garfunkel ;-)
For the record I was never allowed to listen to secular music. Its hilarious to think that when I eventually did it was not ABBA but slightly more extreme: when I was meant to be holy I was listening as an adolescent secretly to Meatloaf’s « Bat out of Hell » and « nights in white Satin » at the lowest possible volume on my cassette recorder upstairs in case I got csught. It’s the cassettes my school friends passed to me.
Anyways… greetings to all :-)
Absolutely no problem & no worries. I was just trying to provoke some ideas & totally understand that they may not apply or for some not comfortable to answer right now. Eg I cannot answer any of RedRoad’s questions - not my domaine ;-)
Welcome Gibbon. I don’t think you were the first to be warned about that beautiful song. I seem to remember Hugh Black discouraging a guy @Wiston camp back in the day from listening to Simon & Garfunkel ;-)
For the record I was never allowed to listen to secular music. Its hilarious to think that when I eventually did it was not ABBA but slightly more extreme: when I was meant to be holy I was listening as an adolescent secretly to Meatloaf’s « Bat out of Hell » and « nights in white Satin » at the lowest possible volume on my cassette recorder upstairs in case I got csught. It’s the cassettes my school friends passed to me.
Anyways… greetings to all :-)
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
ThePetitor
()
Date: February 27, 2025 04:52AM
Phew, so much going on it is hard to keep up! Welcome to the new people and those returning.
I have not been able to post recently, so am going to make up for that now with three posts. Sorry to be hogging it, but I would like to make three different points, so thought I would separate them out. The topics are:
1) Miss Taylor and Spirituality
2) Are people here just critical of everything to do with Struthers?
3) Will the Struthers leaders ever talk to people?
So, to point 1:
Quite a short one really as others have already done a great job here. 101, I think you summarise it very clearly and accurately.
In terms of Miss Taylor, even if we credit here with some insightful statements, that does not mean we should accept all her words as having insight or authority. As we know from the Bible, Paul stood up against Peter and told him to his face that he was wrong, the prophet Nathan rebuked David (even though he was “a man after God’s own heart”). On the other side of the coin, God spoke to Balaam through his ass. So every word has to be examined, no-one carries any sort of “I am always right” authority.
There is also no link between having any sort of insight and being “spiritual”. As others have pointed out, the biblical standards for judging spirituality are the fruits of the spirit, especially love. In the past few pages, Miss Taylor or her actions have been described as “evil”, “cruel”, “striking fear in people’s hearts”, “deluded, “misguided”, “manipulative” and “controlling”.
You can make up your own tests for spirituality if you like – occasionally getting things right in a very insightful way, or creating an atmosphere that leads to amazing singing, but these are not the Biblical tests.
The words used to describe Miss Taylor confirm she does not meet the Biblical test.
(And, no, you cannot argue that all the people here have it wrong and she really did have a sort of deep hidden love that no-one could see – the Bible makes it very clear that the fruits of the spirit are open to observation.)
Amazing Grace makes this point very well when speaking of the Biblical tests for spirituality near the bottom of p120. It is well worth going back and reading that post again. (Oh, and, while I am on this topic of faux-spirituality what on earth does “deeply anointed” mean? It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.)
I have not been able to post recently, so am going to make up for that now with three posts. Sorry to be hogging it, but I would like to make three different points, so thought I would separate them out. The topics are:
1) Miss Taylor and Spirituality
2) Are people here just critical of everything to do with Struthers?
3) Will the Struthers leaders ever talk to people?
So, to point 1:
Quite a short one really as others have already done a great job here. 101, I think you summarise it very clearly and accurately.
In terms of Miss Taylor, even if we credit here with some insightful statements, that does not mean we should accept all her words as having insight or authority. As we know from the Bible, Paul stood up against Peter and told him to his face that he was wrong, the prophet Nathan rebuked David (even though he was “a man after God’s own heart”). On the other side of the coin, God spoke to Balaam through his ass. So every word has to be examined, no-one carries any sort of “I am always right” authority.
There is also no link between having any sort of insight and being “spiritual”. As others have pointed out, the biblical standards for judging spirituality are the fruits of the spirit, especially love. In the past few pages, Miss Taylor or her actions have been described as “evil”, “cruel”, “striking fear in people’s hearts”, “deluded, “misguided”, “manipulative” and “controlling”.
You can make up your own tests for spirituality if you like – occasionally getting things right in a very insightful way, or creating an atmosphere that leads to amazing singing, but these are not the Biblical tests.
The words used to describe Miss Taylor confirm she does not meet the Biblical test.
(And, no, you cannot argue that all the people here have it wrong and she really did have a sort of deep hidden love that no-one could see – the Bible makes it very clear that the fruits of the spirit are open to observation.)
Amazing Grace makes this point very well when speaking of the Biblical tests for spirituality near the bottom of p120. It is well worth going back and reading that post again. (Oh, and, while I am on this topic of faux-spirituality what on earth does “deeply anointed” mean? It does not appear anywhere in the Bible.)
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
ThePetitor
()
Date: February 27, 2025 04:56AM
Post/ point 2: Are people here just critical of everything to do with Struthers?
Liz25, you say, “I’m sensing a ‘there was no good in it whatsoever’ and can’t agree with that but understand that that’s the view of most here.” I totally see why you say that, as many of the comments are indeed critical, but I do not think that the view of most here is actually that there was no good in it whatsoever.
I for example am not always too complimentary about the actions of the Struthers leaders :-), but I did say (halfway down p13 of this forum):
Perhaps what I am saying there is a slightly different way of expressing Al Duff’s point that Struthers is like a kindergarten, keeping you in perpetual childhood. It is very hard to argue with that idea, although I tend to think of it more in terms of the above – that they have one tool and, instead of learning where that tool is and is not useful and discovering other tools, they see their one tool as the answer to everything - which it clearly is not. Worse than that, using a hammer to try to tighten a bolt does it a great deal of damage, and using it to cut a bit of wood does not leave you with a very smooth joint.
That to me is the problem - and is why they actually need to talk to people not in a condescending “we are more spiritual than you “ way, or even as equals, but in humility “we realise we have got somethings terribly wrong, and we really need to speak to others to understand the tools they have and use”.
Even looking at something like the schools fiasco shows this – there were posts here and on the Latigo site about the financial problems with the school for more than ten years. There have more recently been some comments about what people experienced in the school but, leaving that aside, just look at the financial analysis presented here on the forum. It was not critical, it simply showed how much money went from the congregation to the school. I know I certainly tried to emphasise the point that this was perfectly OK, as long as they told the congregation that was where the money was going. So they do not need to take everything here as critical, a great deal of it would actually make their life easier if they were not so arrogant and ignored the insight of others.
This is of course the other side of the argument above that no person is an oracle who is always right. Similarly, no person is an idiot who is always wrong so, even if I am wrong 99% of the time, I might be right just this once – judge the comment, not the author!
Liz25, you say, “I’m sensing a ‘there was no good in it whatsoever’ and can’t agree with that but understand that that’s the view of most here.” I totally see why you say that, as many of the comments are indeed critical, but I do not think that the view of most here is actually that there was no good in it whatsoever.
I for example am not always too complimentary about the actions of the Struthers leaders :-), but I did say (halfway down p13 of this forum):
Quote
ThePetitor
I think there is a lot of truth in what has been said so far – it is certainly possible to experience the deep presence of God in other churches, or indeed at home alone or with others. I suspect that the other side is also true that, in some cases, people are actually having an emotional rather than a spiritual experience, getting the same buzz that they might get from an adrenaline high or other intensely emotional experiences.
There is another possibility that can go alongside these as well however. Let’s just say that Struthers does have something special – that there is a “sense of the presence of God” that is unusual. If that is true – and it appears that many of the people in this site might agree there is some truth in it – what does it mean?
It seems to me that it means that Struthers are good at using one of the many tools God has given us. But God has given us many, many ways to get to know Him. One of the most important is of course through the study of scripture, which tells us to “put on the whole armour of God” clearly indicating that it is not just one particular tool that is required. A balanced and full Christian experience will include an understanding of scripture, fellowship with other Christians, fighting for justice in the world, loving one another, judging what is said by the leaders and many, many other things. There are a whole range of things Jesus said about how to live for the Kingdom that bring richness, purpose and the closeness of God to life.
Where Struthers fails is that they do not recognise any of these other tools. They do not accept the authority of scripture, ignoring verses about caring for others and reserving the right to overrule scripture when required. They do not accept the need for Christian fellowship, explicitly preaching that they do not want to hear the opinions of others and banning Christians from meeting together. They do not have any role in fighting injustice and serving the poor, choosing instead to give their money to the rich. They do not allow people to follow the scriptural injunction to judge what leaders say. Finally, and most important of all, they make no effort at all to “love one another” – a key message of Jesus and the whole of Scripture.
What is left is (possibly) very good use of just one particular tool from the toolbox God has given us. If anyone does believe this, a reasonable path to take would be to attend Struthers meetings to feel the deep presence of God, but NOT to accept their doctrine and NOT to accept their unscriptural control over individual lives. So go along by all means, but do not listen to rules about watching TV, wearing a hat, not having fellowship with other Christians or any of the other control issues.
Of course, the problem is that the leaders themselves may not allow this, instead forcing people to accept all or nothing. The result is that people either have to leave, risking the loss of “ the deep experience” or they have to stay and risk losing absolutely everything except this “deep experience”.
To me, the question is not, “is the deep spiritual experience valid?” it is “does scripture say that a deep spiritual experience is THE SINGLE THING THAT IS REQUIRED as the means to become close to God?”
When it is put that way, it is so clear from scripture (and indeed from psychology and every other form of study if you want to look at it in other ways). Seekingsusan has already given examples of verses that are re-written to suit the Struthers approach, and there are many more that could be subjected to the same treatment.
Things like,
* Blessed are the rich, as they will be able to afford private education.
* If I speak with the tongues of men and angles, but have not love, then I must be so amazingly dedicated to God that I do not have time for such trivial things as love.
Perhaps what I am saying there is a slightly different way of expressing Al Duff’s point that Struthers is like a kindergarten, keeping you in perpetual childhood. It is very hard to argue with that idea, although I tend to think of it more in terms of the above – that they have one tool and, instead of learning where that tool is and is not useful and discovering other tools, they see their one tool as the answer to everything - which it clearly is not. Worse than that, using a hammer to try to tighten a bolt does it a great deal of damage, and using it to cut a bit of wood does not leave you with a very smooth joint.
That to me is the problem - and is why they actually need to talk to people not in a condescending “we are more spiritual than you “ way, or even as equals, but in humility “we realise we have got somethings terribly wrong, and we really need to speak to others to understand the tools they have and use”.
Even looking at something like the schools fiasco shows this – there were posts here and on the Latigo site about the financial problems with the school for more than ten years. There have more recently been some comments about what people experienced in the school but, leaving that aside, just look at the financial analysis presented here on the forum. It was not critical, it simply showed how much money went from the congregation to the school. I know I certainly tried to emphasise the point that this was perfectly OK, as long as they told the congregation that was where the money was going. So they do not need to take everything here as critical, a great deal of it would actually make their life easier if they were not so arrogant and ignored the insight of others.
This is of course the other side of the argument above that no person is an oracle who is always right. Similarly, no person is an idiot who is always wrong so, even if I am wrong 99% of the time, I might be right just this once – judge the comment, not the author!
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
ThePetitor
()
Date: February 27, 2025 05:09AM
Post/ point three – will the leaders ever talk to anyone?
Finally, I was very interested to read some comments asking whether the leaders would ever enter into any sort of discussion.
101 for example said,
Blackwatch said,
I do think they will talk to people eventually. As I have said before, they have no choice about whether these things are spoken about, the only choice they have is when and where they are spoken about. If they do the wise, moral and scriptural thing and open up a dialogue (see the examples in the book of Acts and elsewhere) there would be much less need for this forum and it would simply become redundant. The leaders might also be pleasantly surprised at how open to dialogue many people were (as they are unfortunately not very good at “reading the room” – see the post by Blessed Child and the responses to that).
If they do not engage in direct discussion, the debate will still take place, it is just that it will take place on this forum and in other public places. Even countries that have been at war eventually have to talk to each other and try to reach some sort of compromise. They are simply burying their heads in the sand, and the church will continue to degenerate and diminish until the point that they gain a bit of humility.
Perhaps a lawyer who has seen some stuff will advise then to get their act together.
It seems to me that applies to those leaders who have left as much as to those who have stayed. None have come on here to say they got things wrong and they distance themselves from some of the issues in Struthers, so they appear to also still have the head in the sand approach. It is unwise and unscriptural, and will fail.
Finally, I was very interested to read some comments asking whether the leaders would ever enter into any sort of discussion.
101 for example said,
Quote
A Theist 101
Perhaps what I’m suggesting is an invitation to the leadership to enter into dialogue. As I write I can see the hopelessness of the proposal. For those who adhere to dogmas, the dogmatic, the word compromise is anathema!
Blackwatch said,
Quote
Blackwatch
I too would tend towards open dialog (with SMC). However, given the time that's passed and the opportunity over a 15 year window, I just can't see it happening. Can you imagine the impact it could have if one of the 'big hitters', past or present, just held their hands up and said 'ok, I'm here, I'm human, let's talk about it'?
I do think they will talk to people eventually. As I have said before, they have no choice about whether these things are spoken about, the only choice they have is when and where they are spoken about. If they do the wise, moral and scriptural thing and open up a dialogue (see the examples in the book of Acts and elsewhere) there would be much less need for this forum and it would simply become redundant. The leaders might also be pleasantly surprised at how open to dialogue many people were (as they are unfortunately not very good at “reading the room” – see the post by Blessed Child and the responses to that).
If they do not engage in direct discussion, the debate will still take place, it is just that it will take place on this forum and in other public places. Even countries that have been at war eventually have to talk to each other and try to reach some sort of compromise. They are simply burying their heads in the sand, and the church will continue to degenerate and diminish until the point that they gain a bit of humility.
Perhaps a lawyer who has seen some stuff will advise then to get their act together.
It seems to me that applies to those leaders who have left as much as to those who have stayed. None have come on here to say they got things wrong and they distance themselves from some of the issues in Struthers, so they appear to also still have the head in the sand approach. It is unwise and unscriptural, and will fail.
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Iquitthestrutherscult
()
Date: February 27, 2025 06:57AM
I too would like to see the leaders enter into a constructive dialogue without them being on the defensive and going in with the “we are right” attitude. I was hoping that the open letters which were sent to the directors from Alan Martin and Pauline Anderson would have elicited some kind of meaningful reply but it does not appear to have been the case. I hear there was an open reply sent to them but it addressed virtually none of the issues raised although it ran to many pages. So where do they go from here? Do they continue to press for meaningful dialogue or is it time for even more of the ‘remnant’ to say “I’m out of here. Game over”? For us here on the forum, we already made that decision, some many years ago and our lives are in many cases thriving both naturally and spiritually. In spite of us being told we are walking away from our high call, it is indeed our testimony that the God that saved us is still with us, still blessing us and we feel His guiding hand upon our lives.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.