Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Wistongirl
()
Date: June 24, 2013 04:37AM
Hi Cbarb, I was taking time to read some more of the earlier posts and came on your one on pg 65 - "the year of no Christmas presents". I remember the sermon from Elizabeth Taylor on this one in the small hall upstairs in Greenock and afterwards my parents took it so to heart and that year everyone in the family, friends were asked not to give us Christmas presents. I imagine this was rather awkward for some and certainly weird for us as up until then we used to get lots of gifts and we had a Christmas tree. From then on - no Christmas tree - and the worst bit was that on that Christmas morning (in the 1970's sometime) we had to have prayers and bible readings for quite some time before opening our presents from our parents. It was as unlike Christmas as you can imagine.
I was also reading earlier postings of various people where they had said something in confidence to someone and then surprised to hear it come back to them via a sermon! This is not only a serious breach of trust - but basically what's wrong with using the Bible as the basis for a sermon instead of petty gossiping??? What's wrong with preparing a structured, bible-based sermon instead of "winging it" with supposed enlightenment from God? I was lucky in the fact that in sunday school we had to learn by heart bible verses, the books of the bible, the Exodus from Egypt etc. etc. and even now (having not read a bible for 25 years) I know tonnes of chapter and verse by heart so its there, but in the days before I left SMC there was little emphasis on bible-based preaching and the platform for often used to "get at people".
Hi The Petitor - When I was in SMC I remember there were "influxes" from an area called "The Strone" in Greenock - lots of young people from Kings Glen Primary School (Phil Jewell was involved in this), and then Irene Morrison in Inverkip - there was a tiny little church there on the main street for a while - there was also young people from Larkfield who came to youth meetings. Then of course there were pre-teachers who were from Jordanhill etc. and it was then that the focus swerved to Glasgow I think and, due to the difference in "culture" of the people - the Glasgow ones being university orientated young people - and the influx from the Strone, Larkfield etc. being largely in manual labour I think there was a bit of natural intimidation and a little forgetting of these lovely, hearts of gold people. I don't know if any of them are still in SMC (don't want to start giving names). As far as influxes were concerned I am not up to speed on what the trend was from 1989 onwards as no contact at all. There certainly was no Cumbernauld church at that time and I see lots of focus on that SMC on this blog - it sounds unbearable and seems to be based onhearsay rather than on discernment! I think everyone from each of these influxes could have been "gathered around" together and everyone could have found their role as it takes all types to make a church but (like fashion) I seem to remember waves of trend, leaving some "trampled on" in its wake. Open to correction of course if I'm wrong.
A good start to the week to everybody :-)
I was also reading earlier postings of various people where they had said something in confidence to someone and then surprised to hear it come back to them via a sermon! This is not only a serious breach of trust - but basically what's wrong with using the Bible as the basis for a sermon instead of petty gossiping??? What's wrong with preparing a structured, bible-based sermon instead of "winging it" with supposed enlightenment from God? I was lucky in the fact that in sunday school we had to learn by heart bible verses, the books of the bible, the Exodus from Egypt etc. etc. and even now (having not read a bible for 25 years) I know tonnes of chapter and verse by heart so its there, but in the days before I left SMC there was little emphasis on bible-based preaching and the platform for often used to "get at people".
Hi The Petitor - When I was in SMC I remember there were "influxes" from an area called "The Strone" in Greenock - lots of young people from Kings Glen Primary School (Phil Jewell was involved in this), and then Irene Morrison in Inverkip - there was a tiny little church there on the main street for a while - there was also young people from Larkfield who came to youth meetings. Then of course there were pre-teachers who were from Jordanhill etc. and it was then that the focus swerved to Glasgow I think and, due to the difference in "culture" of the people - the Glasgow ones being university orientated young people - and the influx from the Strone, Larkfield etc. being largely in manual labour I think there was a bit of natural intimidation and a little forgetting of these lovely, hearts of gold people. I don't know if any of them are still in SMC (don't want to start giving names). As far as influxes were concerned I am not up to speed on what the trend was from 1989 onwards as no contact at all. There certainly was no Cumbernauld church at that time and I see lots of focus on that SMC on this blog - it sounds unbearable and seems to be based onhearsay rather than on discernment! I think everyone from each of these influxes could have been "gathered around" together and everyone could have found their role as it takes all types to make a church but (like fashion) I seem to remember waves of trend, leaving some "trampled on" in its wake. Open to correction of course if I'm wrong.
A good start to the week to everybody :-)
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
cbarb
()
Date: June 24, 2013 08:53AM
Hi Wistongirl,
Yes I remember that Christmas very well and, although my parents didn't observe the 'new rule', there were those of my family who did and it was a very subdued and quite awkward Christmas for all I think, thankfully I think the 'rule' only lasted for that particular year - I'm not sure if anyone actually observed it beyond that but I may be wrong there.
You are so right about the lack of preparation of proper sermons, it seemed that when Miss T finally went off her head sermons were largely geared towards the week's new set of rules which must be obeyed and the unworthiness of those in attendance, rather than the actual teachings of the bible.
Like you, I don't do a lot of Bible reading these days but, having chapter and verse drummed into me from an early age has certainly made me a lot better acquainted with the Bible than I otherwise might have been and I think I understand the meanings of the teachings better than the leaders of SMC seem to.
I think I probably know you quite well, Wistongirl, since we seem to be from the same era in SMC :-)
I remember my Dad spending many hours closeted away in his study, preparing for the Sunday sermon and my Mum preparing for the weekly meetings she took, while my Dad worked away from home. But like you, I don't remember anything structured in the sermons in Greenock, they all just seemed to be a mish-mash of whatever came to the speakers' mind at the time they stood to their feet to take the platform. In fact, I remember either Miss. T or Mr. B. once saying that they didn't need to prepare with anything more than prayer and God would give them the right words to say when they got up to talk. In the early days I used to wonder why my Dad had to spend so long preparing his sermons if God was just going to give him the right words on Sunday anyway.
There is a distinct lack of proper Biblical teaching in SMC and too much of the 'touch not the Lord's anointed' rubbish.
I also remember the folks from the Strone, Gibshill, King's Glen, Ladyburn and Port Glasgow - there were quite a number of these young people brought in through various Scripture Union groups in the schools and I think there were more of these young people than the Uni. folks from Glasgow but, as you say, there was a kind of 'us and them' divide since most of these young folk were from working class backgrounds and felt the Uni. folks kind of looked down on them.
I remember one young girl, from Gibshill (I think), in particular who was ferried to meetings even although her folks were dead against her attending SMC. I'm not sure how it was worked out but she always attended the meetings in her school uniform, so perhaps she told her folks she was doing some school activity - I don't know but I do know she wasn't supposed to be attending and she worried a lot about her folks finding out.
Phil Jewell was the most stalwart and lovely person and her influence on these young kids' lives went beyond mere pastoral care, she often opened her home to them during lunch hours to give them somewhere to meet and learn more about the grace of God, from a very Godly woman. Even now, I am still in touch with some of the young people she helped back then (although not so young now!) and all of them agree that Ma Jewell was a great and defining influence on their lives. All of them also agree that there was very little else learned or of benefit to them from their time in SMC.
As far as any of these people still attending SMC today, from what I gather all of them have since left the church.
The problem with leadership in SMC is that they can't afford to have too many people with any authority otherwise their underhand tactics and manipulative ways would have to be taught to too many people; and that might eventually wake people up to the truth of SMC leadership and the Un-holy way they manipulate the members. This is why it is highly unlikely that anyone would ever have a position of authority in SMC unless they were completely bowed and in awe of the current leadership. This of course does not allow anyone to progress their relationship with God to any great extent, since everything has to be given the thumbs-up by the leaders anyway. Many people left because they felt their talents were not being put to good use in the church and their walk with God was being hampered rather than enhanced in SMC. And we won't even go into the mass exodus after the financial scandal.
I also remember the 'withering look' during choir practice and I have to admit I really hated those times when Miss T. would lead. Before those days it was Bobby Clearly who led the choir and Morris Offord played the organ - those were the best choir practices because Bobby Cleary made you smile and feel good while you were singing, instead of being intimidating and crushing you with one look that could make you feel guilty for weeks afterwards - especially if you hadn't learned your part properly and had to look too often at the words and music (It would have been classed as too worldly to have put up a projection screen with words and music, in those days). In fact, I also remember a time when one or two films were shown on a Saturday night, in the downstairs hall of Greenock - one in particular sticks in my mind because Mr. B kept covering the projection screen lense every time a couple started kissing on the film!! That one, if I remember rightly was the epic film about Moses and the parting of the Red Sea. However, that didn't last long because then Miss T decided that Saturday night was ripe for the old meetingitis and it became the longest service in the history of man - with sermons lasting 3 hours long - with Mr. B giving his hour long sermon and then Miss T adding her double-dose of self-flagellation to round off another boring Saturday night, all to be repeated on Sunday night again.
Did it make us any wiser about how to live a good life? No, all it did was make us go home depressed because we just couldn't be as perfect as the 'anointed ones' - leaving us feeling that no matter what we did we would never be good enough to get to heaven anyway. So I used to wonder what was the point of going to church every night of the week and three times on a Sunday if you still weren't going to get to Heaven? I still haven't managed to figure that one out!! :-)
Yes, methinks I know you very well, Wistongirl and I know exactly where you're coming from.
Biiiiiiig love and huge hugggggggs
God Bless xxx
Yes I remember that Christmas very well and, although my parents didn't observe the 'new rule', there were those of my family who did and it was a very subdued and quite awkward Christmas for all I think, thankfully I think the 'rule' only lasted for that particular year - I'm not sure if anyone actually observed it beyond that but I may be wrong there.
You are so right about the lack of preparation of proper sermons, it seemed that when Miss T finally went off her head sermons were largely geared towards the week's new set of rules which must be obeyed and the unworthiness of those in attendance, rather than the actual teachings of the bible.
Like you, I don't do a lot of Bible reading these days but, having chapter and verse drummed into me from an early age has certainly made me a lot better acquainted with the Bible than I otherwise might have been and I think I understand the meanings of the teachings better than the leaders of SMC seem to.
I think I probably know you quite well, Wistongirl, since we seem to be from the same era in SMC :-)
I remember my Dad spending many hours closeted away in his study, preparing for the Sunday sermon and my Mum preparing for the weekly meetings she took, while my Dad worked away from home. But like you, I don't remember anything structured in the sermons in Greenock, they all just seemed to be a mish-mash of whatever came to the speakers' mind at the time they stood to their feet to take the platform. In fact, I remember either Miss. T or Mr. B. once saying that they didn't need to prepare with anything more than prayer and God would give them the right words to say when they got up to talk. In the early days I used to wonder why my Dad had to spend so long preparing his sermons if God was just going to give him the right words on Sunday anyway.
There is a distinct lack of proper Biblical teaching in SMC and too much of the 'touch not the Lord's anointed' rubbish.
I also remember the folks from the Strone, Gibshill, King's Glen, Ladyburn and Port Glasgow - there were quite a number of these young people brought in through various Scripture Union groups in the schools and I think there were more of these young people than the Uni. folks from Glasgow but, as you say, there was a kind of 'us and them' divide since most of these young folk were from working class backgrounds and felt the Uni. folks kind of looked down on them.
I remember one young girl, from Gibshill (I think), in particular who was ferried to meetings even although her folks were dead against her attending SMC. I'm not sure how it was worked out but she always attended the meetings in her school uniform, so perhaps she told her folks she was doing some school activity - I don't know but I do know she wasn't supposed to be attending and she worried a lot about her folks finding out.
Phil Jewell was the most stalwart and lovely person and her influence on these young kids' lives went beyond mere pastoral care, she often opened her home to them during lunch hours to give them somewhere to meet and learn more about the grace of God, from a very Godly woman. Even now, I am still in touch with some of the young people she helped back then (although not so young now!) and all of them agree that Ma Jewell was a great and defining influence on their lives. All of them also agree that there was very little else learned or of benefit to them from their time in SMC.
As far as any of these people still attending SMC today, from what I gather all of them have since left the church.
The problem with leadership in SMC is that they can't afford to have too many people with any authority otherwise their underhand tactics and manipulative ways would have to be taught to too many people; and that might eventually wake people up to the truth of SMC leadership and the Un-holy way they manipulate the members. This is why it is highly unlikely that anyone would ever have a position of authority in SMC unless they were completely bowed and in awe of the current leadership. This of course does not allow anyone to progress their relationship with God to any great extent, since everything has to be given the thumbs-up by the leaders anyway. Many people left because they felt their talents were not being put to good use in the church and their walk with God was being hampered rather than enhanced in SMC. And we won't even go into the mass exodus after the financial scandal.
I also remember the 'withering look' during choir practice and I have to admit I really hated those times when Miss T. would lead. Before those days it was Bobby Clearly who led the choir and Morris Offord played the organ - those were the best choir practices because Bobby Cleary made you smile and feel good while you were singing, instead of being intimidating and crushing you with one look that could make you feel guilty for weeks afterwards - especially if you hadn't learned your part properly and had to look too often at the words and music (It would have been classed as too worldly to have put up a projection screen with words and music, in those days). In fact, I also remember a time when one or two films were shown on a Saturday night, in the downstairs hall of Greenock - one in particular sticks in my mind because Mr. B kept covering the projection screen lense every time a couple started kissing on the film!! That one, if I remember rightly was the epic film about Moses and the parting of the Red Sea. However, that didn't last long because then Miss T decided that Saturday night was ripe for the old meetingitis and it became the longest service in the history of man - with sermons lasting 3 hours long - with Mr. B giving his hour long sermon and then Miss T adding her double-dose of self-flagellation to round off another boring Saturday night, all to be repeated on Sunday night again.
Did it make us any wiser about how to live a good life? No, all it did was make us go home depressed because we just couldn't be as perfect as the 'anointed ones' - leaving us feeling that no matter what we did we would never be good enough to get to heaven anyway. So I used to wonder what was the point of going to church every night of the week and three times on a Sunday if you still weren't going to get to Heaven? I still haven't managed to figure that one out!! :-)
Yes, methinks I know you very well, Wistongirl and I know exactly where you're coming from.
Biiiiiiig love and huge hugggggggs
God Bless xxx
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Clive
()
Date: June 24, 2013 09:33PM
Quote
cbarb
There is a distinct lack of proper Biblical teaching in SMC and too much of the 'touch not the Lord's anointed' rubbish.
Talking of the "Lords anointed" - Diana Rutherford - she recently posted this on a church blog:
"We prayed very simply for nice weather. The church prayed. The children prayed. And we were blessed with glorious sunshine and lots of opportunities to tell others of our Lord. It was a great day!
It was, once again, a simple reminder of the access we have to our Father in heaven. We called and He answered. How simple! Just like a child calling for a parent."
All so conveniently forgetting or sweeping under the carpet all the times Diana or other believers prayed for something much more needed and urgent than a bit of sun - say for an ill child not to die, or for a son with severe depression not to commit suicide ( like Rick Warrens son did recently ) , or simply for their god to provide food because they haven't had anything to eat for days. Or for their god to keep them safe from violent or accidental death before reaching old or even middle age.
If this Diana or others were to keep actual notes of every time her personal Jesus in effect said "no" or simply ignored the petitor ( just like she and the SMC ignore ThePetitor ! ) it would be very apparent that god is very much NOT like a good parent who gives the child what they ask for WHEN THEY REALLY NEED IT. Very much not a "heavenly father".
When a christian young woman or girl gets beaten, raped, tortured and then killed, one can presume she asked her heavenly father to get her out of the horrible situation. Maybe she knows what is coming and merely asks that her heavenly father makes it "endurable". Maybe god even actually answers "yes" to THAT little bit on the odd occasion.
What a loving fatherly god.
For all the times it appears god answers "yes" to a prayer there is praise and worship.
For all the other times nothing happened. To paraphrase scetch show "Little England"..... we have "The Deity Says No".
And from his supplicants and anointeds such as Mrs Rutherford there is silence, amnesia and the wonderful art of the sycophantic sophist apologetic theodicy.
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Ifellaway
()
Date: June 24, 2013 10:14PM
Clive, is this why you are an atheist? God isn't an wishing well or an autoteller. I don't know any Christians who think like this.
Funny point about DR boasting that He is like her church's personal butler. I wonder how hard she is praying for our untimely demise...
So if we die today, call the polis, someone, because Diane ordered the hit and she won't be able to resist telling everyone about it. lol.
If she wasn't so cruel (just my opinion?), she could be a stand-up comedian.
Clive you really do bring up some serious points, but it's like you are setting up skittles so others to go bowling. You crack me up.
But yes, seriously, what is the reason for unanswered prayers if "they ask and they receive"?
Maybe all the interference from us is causing crossed wires on their direct line, on those days.
As for the tragedies you mentioned, no light can be made of these facts. Prayer isn't about getting answered, more about seeking understanding and finding help.
Regards as always, Ifellaway
PS I'm off to pray for a winning lottery ticket. But I don't gamble (with money) so I can't buy a ticket. Fancy buying me one? I'll split the winnings...
Funny point about DR boasting that He is like her church's personal butler. I wonder how hard she is praying for our untimely demise...
So if we die today, call the polis, someone, because Diane ordered the hit and she won't be able to resist telling everyone about it. lol.
If she wasn't so cruel (just my opinion?), she could be a stand-up comedian.
Clive you really do bring up some serious points, but it's like you are setting up skittles so others to go bowling. You crack me up.
But yes, seriously, what is the reason for unanswered prayers if "they ask and they receive"?
Maybe all the interference from us is causing crossed wires on their direct line, on those days.
As for the tragedies you mentioned, no light can be made of these facts. Prayer isn't about getting answered, more about seeking understanding and finding help.
Regards as always, Ifellaway
PS I'm off to pray for a winning lottery ticket. But I don't gamble (with money) so I can't buy a ticket. Fancy buying me one? I'll split the winnings...
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
cbarb
()
Date: June 25, 2013 06:05AM
Hi guys
I'm on high alert for the hitmen, Ifellaway, I luved that!
On a serious note though, I firmly believe that if enough people around the world prayed for it, they could move Mount Everest to London! We are all spiritually connected and we all have the spiritual power to make things happen through prayer together - God says so in the Bible. We also have evidence of prayers being answered but not all prayers are answered in the way we would like them to be and sometimes God expects some effort, besides prayer, on our part - like taking a child to the doctor or to a councillor.
Having prayers answered or not is one issue but continuing to make wonderful prophesies that NEVER bear fruit and expecting the masses to accept these as real prophesies is another thing entirely. I read that post by DR, Clive, and I have to admit to having a hoot over it myself - it's like saying God is only effective enough to change the weather but strangely not effective enough to make the prolific prophesies come true? Come ON!
Of course, the fact that NONE of the prophesies coming out of SMC (even as far back as Miss T.) have ever come true doesn't sway them in the least because it's obviously the members' fault for not being holy enough for God to make any of the prophesies come true.
I'm reminded of an X-Box game my sons play, called 'Borderlands' in which there's a funny wee robot called 'ClapTrap'. That's all I can say about the sludge coming out of the mouths of these so-called 'anointed ones' ..... utter Clap Trap!!
The leaders of SMC are as far away from God as Damien is from the Angel Gabriel. They are way too full of their own self-importance and pride .... the fall is coming, so they should watch where they put their feet when they step down from their podiums in the sky!
As always biiiiiiiiig love and huge hugggggggs to all
God Bless xxxxx
I'm on high alert for the hitmen, Ifellaway, I luved that!
On a serious note though, I firmly believe that if enough people around the world prayed for it, they could move Mount Everest to London! We are all spiritually connected and we all have the spiritual power to make things happen through prayer together - God says so in the Bible. We also have evidence of prayers being answered but not all prayers are answered in the way we would like them to be and sometimes God expects some effort, besides prayer, on our part - like taking a child to the doctor or to a councillor.
Having prayers answered or not is one issue but continuing to make wonderful prophesies that NEVER bear fruit and expecting the masses to accept these as real prophesies is another thing entirely. I read that post by DR, Clive, and I have to admit to having a hoot over it myself - it's like saying God is only effective enough to change the weather but strangely not effective enough to make the prolific prophesies come true? Come ON!
Of course, the fact that NONE of the prophesies coming out of SMC (even as far back as Miss T.) have ever come true doesn't sway them in the least because it's obviously the members' fault for not being holy enough for God to make any of the prophesies come true.
I'm reminded of an X-Box game my sons play, called 'Borderlands' in which there's a funny wee robot called 'ClapTrap'. That's all I can say about the sludge coming out of the mouths of these so-called 'anointed ones' ..... utter Clap Trap!!
The leaders of SMC are as far away from God as Damien is from the Angel Gabriel. They are way too full of their own self-importance and pride .... the fall is coming, so they should watch where they put their feet when they step down from their podiums in the sky!
As always biiiiiiiiig love and huge hugggggggs to all
God Bless xxxxx
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Ifellaway
()
Date: June 25, 2013 09:02AM
In full agreement Cbarb,
But tell the truth...it's not fair to blame your sons for you having gaming addictions/issues.
And are you saying you've watched the Omen?? :0 Oh your poor infected soul.
Again, to be serious, the more that comes to light, (daily!) the harder I find it all to believe.
Oh, I DO believe but even without the ridicule from here and there, how, how, how do such people sleep at night.
Funny that if she made some of these claims a couple of centuries ago, she'd have been tortured and burnt at a stake.
(Easy folks, it's just hypothetical, time machine still not invented...)
Did I say funny? Perhaps I should have said "appropriate".
Anywayyy... patient, good people. Dum, dum. dum, dum dum dum..can anyone here it?
I will sleep to distant beat tonight,
Regards all, and happy days. Ifellaway
But tell the truth...it's not fair to blame your sons for you having gaming addictions/issues.
And are you saying you've watched the Omen?? :0 Oh your poor infected soul.
Again, to be serious, the more that comes to light, (daily!) the harder I find it all to believe.
Oh, I DO believe but even without the ridicule from here and there, how, how, how do such people sleep at night.
Funny that if she made some of these claims a couple of centuries ago, she'd have been tortured and burnt at a stake.
(Easy folks, it's just hypothetical, time machine still not invented...)
Did I say funny? Perhaps I should have said "appropriate".
Anywayyy... patient, good people. Dum, dum. dum, dum dum dum..can anyone here it?
I will sleep to distant beat tonight,
Regards all, and happy days. Ifellaway
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
cbarb
()
Date: June 26, 2013 12:30AM
Hi Ifellaway
OK, you got me, I'm afraid I've had that addiction since the Atari first came out, but I hid behind a cushion during the Omen, so does that mean I'm OK? :-)
I'll tell you though how 'such people can sleep at night' - it's because they actually BELIEVE that they are different from everyone else and they have some special anointing that means everything they say is correct and unquestionable. Their belief in themselves is supported and enhanced because their 'adoring fans' also believe they are somehow special and better than their fellow human beings ... stoking the fire, so to speak.
It's called 'narcissism' and is a mental disorder. Unfortunately there's no real cure for it because sufferers won't seek help since they don't believe there is anything wrong with them. To narcissistic people, it's the rest of humanity who are wrong, I think it used to be referred to as having a 'God complex' which is probably more appropriate, in this case.
Biiiiiiig love and huge huggggggs
God Bless xxxxx
OK, you got me, I'm afraid I've had that addiction since the Atari first came out, but I hid behind a cushion during the Omen, so does that mean I'm OK? :-)
I'll tell you though how 'such people can sleep at night' - it's because they actually BELIEVE that they are different from everyone else and they have some special anointing that means everything they say is correct and unquestionable. Their belief in themselves is supported and enhanced because their 'adoring fans' also believe they are somehow special and better than their fellow human beings ... stoking the fire, so to speak.
It's called 'narcissism' and is a mental disorder. Unfortunately there's no real cure for it because sufferers won't seek help since they don't believe there is anything wrong with them. To narcissistic people, it's the rest of humanity who are wrong, I think it used to be referred to as having a 'God complex' which is probably more appropriate, in this case.
Biiiiiiig love and huge huggggggs
God Bless xxxxx
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Clive
()
Date: June 29, 2013 01:09PM
IFellaway "I don't know any Christians who think like this."
Really ? does the phrase "answered prayer" mean nothing to you ?
Pentecostal land is replete with anecdotes about the "Power of prayer". It is the fuel that feeds pentecostlism and a lucrative christian book industry.
But it is the nature of things that all the times prayer failed to "come through" or failed to provide some requested guidance or direction never end up being subjects of excited conversation in church circles. Why should they be ?
No human likes to constantly recount failures. Silences. Do football fans constantly discuss all the times the ball got to the penalty area but never ended up in a goal ? Of course not.
But even Mother Teresa of Calcutta was deeply in crisis faith-wise over gods "silence" in her latter years, according to her own writings.
Forgive me for being a party pooper but I don't place any virtue on "firm belief" or "faith" - especially in a hypothetical. Why is "faith" a virtue ? beats me. Even when interpreted as mere "trust" - whether in a human or a god - such faith exhibits no clear virtue to me. Quite frankly the wars and struggles we see going on in the news every day are not the result to too little "belief" but too much "firm belief". In fact too much "firm belief" in stuff that these faith-full have no bloody basis to either assert nor use as a stick to enforce conformity by those not sharing the same "firm belief".
I see no virtue in fundamentalism and in fact a great deal of evils resulting form it.
Being trustworthy is a virtue. Being a "good truster" is not. A collection of "trusters" - "trusters" that are happy to put all their eggs int the basket of their local cult is what has given rise to this forum after all.
Every person who has contributed their testimonies here are - in actual fact in no small way - exhibiting scepticism and one hopes questioning deeply the place of "faith" - as it is expressed in religious sects with strong overbearing leaderships. Bring on doubt I say. All you here are in no small way doubters after all !. Revel in it !. Be proud that you dared to question the emperor.
And when it comes to faith as believers use the term - time and time again - even in my xtian days it was perfectly clear to me that "Faith" was in actual case nearly always faith in what some other human was asserting as "spiritually true". Or it is in effect faith in leadership, a church tradition, what mummy and daddy taught you when you were young.
Firmly believing that god will solve ones gravest problems is something that ALL xtians are supposed to believe. For the simple reason that this is what Jesus stated himself. If a christian is hungry and asks god for bread does god give him a snake instead ? so goes Jesus' rhetoric.
Another passage about how god supposedly takes care of cute birds comes to mind. Although maybe Jesus never came across those nests where mummy bird was'nt able to find enough food for her young ones so that her young ones ended up eating their weaker siblings. Birds fall prey to the vagaries of nature. And nature is indeed red in tooth and claw. Jesus clearly needs to pick s better metaphor here. It neither works for birds nor in actual reality for humans on this planet.
All this might be fine for nursery level sunday schools but any adult who has ventured out into the real world knows that there is no such assurance.
If only a fraction of the people who supposedly pray for world peace stopped supporting their catholic popes, pentecostal mega-pastors, frothing at the mouth imams and their billions of flock faithfully and fervently praying for
either a caliphate or the return of their shia messiah, or the xtian one- then maybe peace would come.
As to " I firmly believe that if enough people around the world prayed for it, they could move Mount Everest to London! " well i find this firm belief in hypotheticals to be not only largely fruitless but also a
key factor in SMC behaviour.
If only SMC congregants would fall into line wrt holiness there would be a revival. If only SMC-ers really really really prayed hard.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 01:15PM by Clive.
Really ? does the phrase "answered prayer" mean nothing to you ?
Pentecostal land is replete with anecdotes about the "Power of prayer". It is the fuel that feeds pentecostlism and a lucrative christian book industry.
But it is the nature of things that all the times prayer failed to "come through" or failed to provide some requested guidance or direction never end up being subjects of excited conversation in church circles. Why should they be ?
No human likes to constantly recount failures. Silences. Do football fans constantly discuss all the times the ball got to the penalty area but never ended up in a goal ? Of course not.
But even Mother Teresa of Calcutta was deeply in crisis faith-wise over gods "silence" in her latter years, according to her own writings.
Quote
cbarb
I firmly believe that if enough people around the world prayed for it, they could move Mount Everest to London! We are all spiritually connected and we all have the spiritual power to make things happen through prayer together - God says so in the Bible.
Forgive me for being a party pooper but I don't place any virtue on "firm belief" or "faith" - especially in a hypothetical. Why is "faith" a virtue ? beats me. Even when interpreted as mere "trust" - whether in a human or a god - such faith exhibits no clear virtue to me. Quite frankly the wars and struggles we see going on in the news every day are not the result to too little "belief" but too much "firm belief". In fact too much "firm belief" in stuff that these faith-full have no bloody basis to either assert nor use as a stick to enforce conformity by those not sharing the same "firm belief".
I see no virtue in fundamentalism and in fact a great deal of evils resulting form it.
Being trustworthy is a virtue. Being a "good truster" is not. A collection of "trusters" - "trusters" that are happy to put all their eggs int the basket of their local cult is what has given rise to this forum after all.
Every person who has contributed their testimonies here are - in actual fact in no small way - exhibiting scepticism and one hopes questioning deeply the place of "faith" - as it is expressed in religious sects with strong overbearing leaderships. Bring on doubt I say. All you here are in no small way doubters after all !. Revel in it !. Be proud that you dared to question the emperor.
And when it comes to faith as believers use the term - time and time again - even in my xtian days it was perfectly clear to me that "Faith" was in actual case nearly always faith in what some other human was asserting as "spiritually true". Or it is in effect faith in leadership, a church tradition, what mummy and daddy taught you when you were young.
Firmly believing that god will solve ones gravest problems is something that ALL xtians are supposed to believe. For the simple reason that this is what Jesus stated himself. If a christian is hungry and asks god for bread does god give him a snake instead ? so goes Jesus' rhetoric.
Another passage about how god supposedly takes care of cute birds comes to mind. Although maybe Jesus never came across those nests where mummy bird was'nt able to find enough food for her young ones so that her young ones ended up eating their weaker siblings. Birds fall prey to the vagaries of nature. And nature is indeed red in tooth and claw. Jesus clearly needs to pick s better metaphor here. It neither works for birds nor in actual reality for humans on this planet.
All this might be fine for nursery level sunday schools but any adult who has ventured out into the real world knows that there is no such assurance.
If only a fraction of the people who supposedly pray for world peace stopped supporting their catholic popes, pentecostal mega-pastors, frothing at the mouth imams and their billions of flock faithfully and fervently praying for
either a caliphate or the return of their shia messiah, or the xtian one- then maybe peace would come.
As to " I firmly believe that if enough people around the world prayed for it, they could move Mount Everest to London! " well i find this firm belief in hypotheticals to be not only largely fruitless but also a
key factor in SMC behaviour.
If only SMC congregants would fall into line wrt holiness there would be a revival. If only SMC-ers really really really prayed hard.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 01:15PM by Clive.
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Wistongirl
()
Date: June 29, 2013 05:00PM
Hi,
A wee thought for Nelson Mandela today guys - one of his greatest qualities is that he managed to forgive the people who wronged him. (I didn't say forget) - if he can do that, in view of all he suffered, then so can we. Ok we've been wronged & have scars and that can't be changed, but let's try to forgive and move on for our own peace of mind. Perhaps sounds simplistic to some, but sometimes the basic things in life are just that - simple ;-)
Have a restful weekend folks,
A wee thought for Nelson Mandela today guys - one of his greatest qualities is that he managed to forgive the people who wronged him. (I didn't say forget) - if he can do that, in view of all he suffered, then so can we. Ok we've been wronged & have scars and that can't be changed, but let's try to forgive and move on for our own peace of mind. Perhaps sounds simplistic to some, but sometimes the basic things in life are just that - simple ;-)
Have a restful weekend folks,
Re: Struthers Memorial Independent Pentecostal Church
Posted by:
Wistongirl
()
Date: June 29, 2013 08:39PM
Hi Clive
"I see no virtue in fundamentalism and in fact a great deal of evils resulting from it"
"If only a fraction of the people who supposedly pray for world peace stopped supporting their catholic popes, pentecostal mega-pastors, frothing at the mouth imams and their billions of flock faithfully and fervently praying for
either a caliphate or the return of their shia messiah, or the xtian one- then maybe peace would come"
"Being trustworthy is a virtue. Being a "good truster" is not. A collection of "trusters" - "trusters" that are happy to put all their eggs int the basket of their local cult is what has given rise to this forum after all"
Gives food for thought and really appreciate your post above as often thought the first 2 points myself, eg. that most (if not all) wars are caused by religious differences, that faith can easily be turned to humans instead of to God which then of course causes problems as we're all human after all and maybe we'd have peace without religion - we don't know that right enough but it's a thought. That each religion thinks they're the only ones that are right etc. etc.
Even although I personally have seen too much hypochrisy in the religious circle I was in (me being part of the hypochrisy ...) to be a believer today, I still have respect for those who choose to believe as its our free choice after all - I think you would agree - tolerance and all that ...
Cheers,
"I see no virtue in fundamentalism and in fact a great deal of evils resulting from it"
"If only a fraction of the people who supposedly pray for world peace stopped supporting their catholic popes, pentecostal mega-pastors, frothing at the mouth imams and their billions of flock faithfully and fervently praying for
either a caliphate or the return of their shia messiah, or the xtian one- then maybe peace would come"
"Being trustworthy is a virtue. Being a "good truster" is not. A collection of "trusters" - "trusters" that are happy to put all their eggs int the basket of their local cult is what has given rise to this forum after all"
Gives food for thought and really appreciate your post above as often thought the first 2 points myself, eg. that most (if not all) wars are caused by religious differences, that faith can easily be turned to humans instead of to God which then of course causes problems as we're all human after all and maybe we'd have peace without religion - we don't know that right enough but it's a thought. That each religion thinks they're the only ones that are right etc. etc.
Even although I personally have seen too much hypochrisy in the religious circle I was in (me being part of the hypochrisy ...) to be a believer today, I still have respect for those who choose to believe as its our free choice after all - I think you would agree - tolerance and all that ...
Cheers,
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