PS. I should clarify my point about money being spent wisely. I had left the church BEFORE the vanity publishing, shares, bookshops, coffee shops and schools were even thought of and, in those days, money was collected solely for the upkeep of the church buildings and charitible works.

xxx

Hi again

Sorry, I know I probably bored you silly with my last looooong post but here's another wee thought.

I Googled SMC and there we are, still prominent on the first search page, although there are numerous flikr sites and Cumbernauld sites and sites for all the various churches - we're still at the top - giving anyone who is thinking about joining SMC the chance to make a well-informed decision before joining this group.

I tried a few other search engines too and we're still there, a thorn in the side.

They can try to swamp us but the truth need only start as a small seed and I would think that, if we were wrong to be making public the hurt, confusion and destruction of souls and lives, by certain leaders of SMC, then I think we would have been drowned out by now.

From small acorns, great oaks are grown and sometimes it takes a bit of time for the truth to be told but I take great comfort from the fact that, far from being drowned out we are still in a most prominent position on searches. OK so, we might only be second on the page in most searches but that doesn't matter because we are still so prominent people can't help but notice this forum when searching for info on the church. Therefore, anyone who searches will be getting a BALANCED view of what the organisation is and what it stands for.

This is good news and hopefully will lead to fewer people being physically and spiritually (not to mention financially?) damaged by these people, in the future.



Biiiiiig hugggggs
God Bless
xxxxxx

hi all i remember that guy as well, i was sad when i heard he had taken his life but he was very ill and anyone could see it.
i tried to talk to him one night waiting for the train back from greenock but he just acted as though he didn't know me.
on the other hand some of you will remember a healing from manic depression...

Hi mikewilson

Lovely to see you here!

I only have a vague recollection of the healing you're talking about but it does strike a chord with me, I think I may have been too young at the time to be privvy to all the details. Either that, or it may have been around the time when I was rebelling and going to fewer of the Greenock services.

Maybe someone else might remember more about the healing, from depression, you mentioned? Or you might be able to tell us a bit more about it, if you can?

As always

Biiiig love and huge hugggggs
God Bless
xxxx

some of you may remember george marshal, bald head big beard, i remember his testimony but not when he gave it, as i have not been to smc for about 10 years it must have been before that.
He was very open and honest in talking about manic depression and also about his healing.
I had at the time no reason to doubt what he said and still don't.
He was healed and as far as i know still is,

Clive
You just don't seem to get it, where I'm coming from, with my comments re the ipads. You were never a member of SMC and I think you said you had only been at one summer Camp many years ago. So you won't understand how things are run in SMC and what it's like to be in it for several years. It's the way in which it was done that isn't right or above board for a church, where loyal and generous members are giving money and then a good amount of it is going towards supporting rich kids', whose parents hardly ever attend the church, private educations.

Aye, it has worked, yes. That doesn't mean things were done properly and honestly. Mr Black himself used to say "the mills of God grind exceeding slow but they grind exceeding sure". In other words, wrong actions you carry out can come back round to hit you after years have passed.

Re SMC giving to charity, There is no need to guess. The iPads are going to Africa to a project which is run by an SMC member herself, to help kids out there. Everything is tied up with their own insular church contacts. It's not to do with missionaries sent out or missions operated by SMC.

Hi mikewilson

Thanks for the reminder, I only vaguley remember Geroge Marshall although I think my parents probably know him quite well. The thing is that many people did receive healing in SMC because God doesn't abandon those who are true to him (regardless of which church they attend or what religion they are). Just because the leaders of the church have questionable practices doesn't stop God from working in peoples' lives.

I too know of other people who have been healed over the years (my Mum included, but I've told that story here already) but this is in spite of the leaders and not because they are right in their ways. I don't know about Geroge Marshall but all of the people whom I know experienced healing, when I attended the church, have now moved on to other churches and ministires and are still on fire for God elsewhere.

God promised revival for SMC when I was just a wee girl and he didn't wait around till SMC bought i-Pads to effect the revival. The revival was hampered by church leaders who thought they knew better than God and systmeatically got rid of the very people who, I believe, were the ones who were to be instrumental in the revival. As a result, these people went on to be instrumental in revival in other churches and the revival swept across the world but, seemingly missed SMC altogether - since they still seem to be waiting for it to happen to them.

I remember also that many people, particularly with mental disorders, only got worse and were not given any support by the leaders of the church - as was the case wtih the man who killed himself. You do have to wonder, if he had been given more support and the proper help from the church, whether he just might be alive today?

You remember when the outlying churches were led by ordinary men, who didn't claim any special anointing but were (and those who're still alive, still are) on fire for God and constantly bringing new kids into the church?

These guys were from really diverse professions, no two pastors worked in the same profession, in those days. And there were healings and miracles happened for people, on the odd occasion, but from what I recall, there was no casting out of demons and so on - not till much later, when Miss T. began to go a bit Doo Wally and everything became doom and gloom and the demons were out for a frolic among the flock. If I remember rightly, that began around the time that poor chap had a fit at one of the summer camps and instead of getting an ambulance, he got his demons cast out.

To get back to the point about the pastors having diverse professions, the majority of pastors now on the SMC pulpits are not only women but also in the same profession.

I believe this is a very significant point; people who become teachers do so because they have that teaching type of personality and they, hopefully, enjoy working with young people and infants. Just like people who enjoy maths, working with numbers and problem solving go in for professions like accountancy, business consultancy, marketing and a host of other professions and personalities to fit them.

So, you see the congregations are made up of many diverse personalities, professions and levels of understanding. But the people leading them are all LIKE-minded with no BALANCE from any other mind-set in society. Perhaps if they had a few more business-heads on their pulpits they wouldn't be making such a cod of managing their funds. In fact I'd say that if they listened to some more business-headed people they would never have begun the Cedars School project in the first place, never mind the shops and vanity publishing.

Back in the day, there was a kind reverence around Totty Black and Miss T and people didn't generally feel they could question those two at all. But the normal pastors were all very approachable and you could discuss things with them that you didn't understand and they would answer questions without making you feel sinful for asking the questions.

I know most of these women who are on the platforms now and I don't know about you but I couldn't think of a WORSE bunch of people to be leading the next generation to God.

In fact, when I first found this forum, I was utterly shocked to discover who the pastors of each of the churches were - I just could not believe my eyes. There were way more suitable candidates for the job, who remained stoically in the church. People with a far better understanding of God and what it is to be a leader of God's people, it's sad to see that they couldn't have picked a worse bunch of people to teach them The Way and show them the love and grace of God.

The attitude coming out now is - "I'm the TEACHER and I'm always right, so don't question what I tell you" - you see where I'm coming from here? HB had that attitude too but then, he was also in the teaching profession. This is nothing against the teaching profession, my Mum used be a teacher, but it's more about finding a balance. These days, the congregation aren't going to church, they're going to SCHOOL.

There can be no argument about that because we know that our personalities are in everything we do, it therefore stands to reason that, if you have the teaching type of personality, that will be evident in everything you do (not just while you're in school or church). For example, you will teach your own kids in a different way to someone who has no knowledge of the teaching profession. But God made us with so many diverse personalities for a reason and that reason was to help us to find a proper BALANCE when we come together. In other words we have to work as a group in order to make a whole, in God. But SMC have closeted themselves into only a fraction of the whole personality of God and that's what makes it an unhealthy environment.

I can look at this quite objectively and subjectively at the same time, my Mum was a teacher and my Dad was a management consultant (both are now retired) - both have distinctly different personalities but they perfectly compliment each other. But even they are just one piece of the whole puzzle - if you think of the way strings of DNA are presented in pictures and on TV etc. It takes a molecule of every type of person to be combined in one 'DNA-like' structure to make the WHOLE of the personality of God.

I say this because the Bible tells us that God is IN every single one of us, and I believe that includes people who're in a dark place too, it therefore stands to reason that EVERY person with EVERY type of personality imagineable, in the WHOLE world is a part of God's DNA.

So now you see the IMBALANCE evident in SMC; although they do seem to believe that they are a more important part of God's DNA than the rest of us.

Well, who knows, maybe they are and maybe they aren't but I certainly don't like their ideas of Christianity. We don't see much of the LOVE and GRACE of God in these leaders - if the testimonies here are anything to go by. Quite the opposite in fact, what we see is absolute power over peoples' lives which causes destruction of relationships, mental health problems and people becoming insular instead of outgoing and on fire for God.

This doesn't detract from the work God wants to do in individuals' lives but, where His work is begin hampered by unscrupulous humans giving quite anti-Christian advice on numerous occassions, God's work cannot be complete in an individual's life when they are listening to the human voices instead of God's own voice.

It is a sad fact that the wrong people are in leadership in SMC and, had they listened to God (and not the humans who set themselves up like Godheads) their churches would be heaving and bursting at the seams. Taking the church into commercial ventures, I believe was meant to try and recoup the money lost by HB when the stock market crashed, but these ventures weren't what God intended for SMC. I believe this wholeheartedly because we KNOW God works to sustain His Holy works and we can SEE that, not only has revival left SMC behind but their commercial ventures are not recouping the lost money and are never likely to either.

Half a decade later, the church has a drastically reduced membership, with those who have left being branded as 'Faithless' and 'having FAILED the test of God'. What a load of rubbish - the ones who have left are GROWING in God elsewhere. OK some, unfortunately lost their faith entirely (SMC leaders will be called to account for them, when the time comes). But the MAJORITY of these many HUNDREDS of souls are still tireslessly doing God's work outside of SMC and they are still very much within God's fold.

The very fact that the remaining congregation are being LIED to about these people is a blatant testimony to the fact that these, so-called, leaders are wholly unworthy of God much less to be leaders of the people attending their services.

Why are the remaining members being LIED to in the first place? Not just about the people who have left the church but also about things like the need for expensive i-Pads for the unneccesary school. The idea that you can only be in contact with the rest of the world (and therefore effect revival) through an i-Pad is quite ridiculous since we have been in touch with everyone around the world since we discovered e-mail (followed by programmes similar to Skype) - over a quarter of a century ago!

If it is deemed necessary to LIE to church-goers about ANYTHING then you can be sure this is not in least bit Godly. Thou shalt not LIE - that's the commandment, it doesn't say 'Thou shalt not lie except where you want people to give you money for some commercial venture'. And on the point of commerciality, didn't Jesus throw the traders out of the church? Commercialism is NOT what God is about and, I for one believe that, this is why the church have never recovered from the loss of huge sums of money on the stock market; because they have continued to use commercialism to try to recoup those losses and this is not what God teaches.

It's the lies and deceit coming from SMC pulpits which needs to be challenged since this is so very Un-Christian and Un-Godly and yet these leaders profess to have some special anointing from God which makes them better than everyone else. Well, if that anointing makes it so easy to publically LIE about things then I have to say this does NOT come from the God I know in my own life, nor the God who continually works in my family and friends' lives.

Quite frankly, I think the God I know is way more powerful and loving than the God SMC are worshipping.

As always huge love and biiiiiiiig huggggs to all
God Bless xxxx

Hi All, just catching up on the discussions here.

First, welcome to MagicCarrot and mikewilson – I don’t think I have posted since you have joined the site.

The point about computers vs iPads (vs not using technology) is interesting but, as others have pointed out, it is not really the use of any particular type of technology that is the issue. I personally think iPads are a great idea but I do wonder, if they are so great, why they are not using them in the church side of their business. Why not have a church service where someone says – “Today we are looking at the idea ‘God is love’. Everyone get out their iPads or mobile phones and see what you can find on the internet about this concept.” That would be interesting!

OK, I am being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but not entirely. If the best way to educate people is through this use of technology and getting people to find out things for themselves, why only do it is half of their business? I do actually think they have a contradiction there, as part of their business apparently agrees with the educational philosophy of learning through experience, and the other half does not. (Although the content of the humiliation sermon on Latigo makes it fairly clear which one they really believe and how they are happy to say one thing to one group of people and a different thing to others.)

The main issue is really the financial hypocrisy however – telling people iPads will bring revival and not telling the congregation that it is their donations are paying for the iPads - and is also paying for the salaries of some leaders and their families who are employed by the business. (There is only one business remember – in legal terms they are not employed by the school side or the church side, they are employed by Struthers Memorial Church Limited, which happens to run different activities.)


The healing question is also an interesting one. I have no great difficulty with claims of healing but these have to be accompanied at the very least with openness and honesty. To take just two examples, I seem to remember that alongside any claim to healing, George Marshall was also told by Mr Black that it would be good for him to take a holiday each year and lie on a beach somewhere. Now, I am not trying to discredit the healing, but whatever happened, it is interesting that Mr Black chose to offer this pragmatic advice alongside the apparently divine intervention. To me, that is the kind of thing Mr Black would do on a one-to-one basis before things became so spiritual that you couldn’t sneeze without triggering an exorcism.

But, to take another example of “healing” alongside this one, there was a member of one of the other branches that was apparently healed of severe depression, and Mr Black then wrote about this wonderful healing in one of his books. She was not given any advice to go on holiday but were subject to the usual demands from the pulpit to give up everything and be super-spiritual.

This person ended up so depressed she had to be sectioned on more than one occasion. A pretty small sample size, I admit, so not much good for statistical analysis, but it does seem to me that telling someone they are healed and that it is their fault if they are not being a wonderful spiritual person is a sure way to put pressure on an individual, and to make it really difficult for them to accept that the chemicals in our brain are occasionally a pain on the neck and need a bit of tweaking. Telling them they are healed but they might still need to take a holiday to wind down is a very different approach. Yes, only a sample size of two, but I for one am not surprised that one approach seems to have been fairly successful and the other was an unmitigated disaster.

Healing might be OK, telling people God has healed them and they must be backsliding if they do not partake of Christ's victory is not.

If the leaders would be a bit more honest and stop pretending the answer to everything was to pray loudly in tounges, they might have a bit more success.

Here is a sanity challenge: Is anyone else here going to admit that maybe not ALL SMC decisions are bad ?

ThePetitor asks: "if they are so great, why they are not using them in the church side of their business"

There is no logic behind this question. One does not entail the other. Are the needs of educating children in classes in any way the same as those a pastor faces leading a congregation or running worship services or conferences ?.

As it happens there are some really good apps for worship leaders these days. So I think the answer is yes. But
in an insignificant way compered to the educational avdantages.

The decision to use iPads in the school was bought up by posters here. it was added to the list of things to
blame SMC about. Not EVERY LITTLE THING that SMC does, has to be picked apart.

Personally I think faith schools just in themselves are a bad and divisive idea. They should never have been encouraged by Blair. We will see the unintended consequences of this for many years to come.

Whether or not SMC misled church members to hand over cash for iPads, or even whether it was done under the false pretences of being a "missionary" thing is one thing. But it just automatically questioning EVERY decision they make, such as the use of iPads in education is just petty.

Here is an article: "Can the iPad Rescue a Struggling American Education System?

[www.wired.com]

Hi guys

It's interesting that the i-Pad issue seems to be prompting support for SMC from the 'resident aetheist'. The i-pad issue is only ONE issue out of the whole SMC question. It IS important to question how SMC leaders find it so easy to do, say and get what they want just by telling their members that this is what God wants of them and branding them 'faithless' or 'sinful' or 'unholy' if they question any of the decisions made by the pastors.

There have been a total of 849 post on this forum, so far, and only about 10 of them mentioning the i-Pad issue. Again, this is only ONE instance of the members of the church being LIED to and this is a far more serious issue especially when the people telling the LIES claim to be specially anointed by God. That's the REAL issue!

People are being LIED to, lives and relationships are being destroyed and all in the name of God! Isn't this a far more serious issue than having a go about the fact that we have mentioned the i-pad issue in a handful of posts as opposed to all the other serious issues which have been brought up in the remaining 829 posts?

I believe the whole idea of SMC running a PRIVATE school which has to be subsidised by the members of the church is abhorrent and even more abhorrent is the fact that the members of the church are actually paying the leaders' families to work in this school - did any of the ordinary members on the pews get the chance to apply for these jobs? I doubt it! But they are still being hit in their pockets to pay for the privileged few. Hand-in-hand with that issue is the fact that this is a PRIVATE school so why are ANY of the church funds being used to subsidise it?

As a PRIVATE school the parents of the pupils should be paying the fees to make the school viable and there should be no need to subsidise the wages of, or the technology for the privileged few to work, or be educted, in the school. Are there any other private schools, in the whole of the country, which are subsidised by ANYONE who doesn't have, or can't afford to have their own children educated there? I don't think so, unless perhaps they are receiving grants from the Government.

Let me ask a pertinent question here. Who, on this forum, would actually willingly pay money to a private education establishment with which they have no personal connection?

The REAL issue about Cedars is the viability of the school and the i-pad issue is only a fraction of the whole question surrounding the need for a church to be running a loss-making PRIVATE education establishment and using collection plate money to subsidise this, instead of raising the school fees, like any other PRIVATE education establishment would be forced to do.

It seems to me that SMC can use the collection plate money in whatever way they want, without even telling the congregation the TRUTH about what they're doing with their hard-earned dosh.

Like I said before, the very fact that SMC leaders are using church money to pay their own SALARIES, or to pay for unnecessary technology, is no different from HB using church money to gamble on the stock market, while telling the congregation that it is sinful for them to do this themselves.

The manipulation of church members, the double standards and the outright LIES of SMC leaders are what is really at the heart of this whole forum (the i-pad thing being just ONE in a loooooong list of things which are questionable and very dubious about this organisation.

Whether the pupils need i-pads, or any other technology for that matter, is not the question. The questions are: Why is the chuch collection plate money being used to fund these activities when they are not available to ALL church members? Why are the church members not being told the truth about the need for i-pads, much less the need to be running a loss-making private school for the privileged few? Why are the 'anointed ones' families being paid salaries from church funds?

When I was young, the idea of ANY church leaders or their families being paid salaries (or even being recompensed for out-of-pocket expenses) would have been met with stern rebuke and possibly a session of exorcism for even having such an unholy thought in the first place!

Even more questionable is the fact that the parents of the pupils in Cedars don't even attend the church or give to the collection plate and yet, when I was young, you couldn't even marry a person who didn't attend the church and you were constantly being told to stay away from 'unholy' people - and that meant ANYONE who didn't attend Struthers!! ? Yet now they are providing private education for the kids of the people they deem 'unholy' and subsidising this from the collection plate of the faithful. Not only that, but they are now paying SALARIES to themselves from the collection plate and yet that would have been shameful in Miss T's day!

People were expected to give freely of their time, petrol, food and anything else which 'God wanted from them' (according to the leaders). This even went as far as people being expected to open their doors to strangers who needed a place to stay, without ANY recompense for the extra cost of this to the members of the church.

I remember many times when my family had to take in people sent by HB to live with us for a while and some of them were very questionable people. On more than one occassion we had some very unhygienic people foisted on us and my folks had to not only bear the extra expense for this, but do so without complaint - which they did willingly, for God. However, I didn't exactly enjoy it when the nit-comb had to be brought out because of some of these people!! But no one would even have entertained the thought of asking for any money to help out, even when they could barely afford to feed their own families. In addition, they were still expected to pay their full tithes to the church - which, of course, HB used to gamble on the stock market and lost!! And that was going on while he was telling everyone else that it was EVIL to gamble and that included investing on the stock market???

So forget the i-pads, if it gets up your nose that we've mentioned them on the forum, and focus on the BIG picture that SMC is run by double standards and outright LIES and is much less holy than a block of swiss cheese.

This is why so many HUNDREDS of people have left SMC, because they were too intelligent to carry on believing, and not smelling, the verbal diarrhoea being spouted from the pulpit week-in and week-out.

As always
Biiiiig love and huge huggggggs to all
God Bless xxx