Thanks for all your recent posts which have been so interesting and informative. It's so good to see people getting help and having a voice through taking part in this Forum.

Just a few comments:
Cbarb, do you know, I have never heard about the lady you call Ma (Mrs) Jewell. There's one reason and only one to explain this and that is because she left SMC for good and as you say, spoke up and questioned things. A lady like you describe, who appears to have worked tirelessly for the Church and given spiritual help and encouragement to young people, should have been celebrated. Instead she was never mentioned publicly by any of the leaders and I am certain that she was not mentioned at the 60 year celebration event. She should have been! I remember your parents and your uncle and aunt and I missed them after they left SMC. I'm sorry if this hurts you, Cbarb, but we were told in sermons in the late 80s that people who had left had fallen from "the high road" or the "high calling of God." When I left SMC, of course, I was able to see that this was totally untrue. As Lintar123 points out, she was spoken about publicly from the platform after she left aswell. This is how SMC leaders behave and this is what they pass on to the members who in turn believe the lies about people.

Calvary, I remember the 10 Cities vision of DR and, to my knowledge, you're right that it doesnt seem to have come to pass. She boasted at the time that God had given her the towns which make up North Lanarkshire before local government had called the area North Lanarkshire. It reminds me of Miss Taylor's vision of the Fountain where she predicted the Struthers movemnt spreading out from Greenock over the central belt of Scotland and beyond and leading to branch churches being set up all over the place. As you can read in Latigo's article about "How many menbers does SMC have?" many of these branch churches which were set up in the 70s and 80s eventually closed and are no longer in operation. Latigo show that the numbers attending present branch churches are not that high and that the movement is not spreading out all over the place from Greenock. So what's happened regarding that vision? What are the leaders' thoughts on that one?

Yes, I think you're right that Mr Black did not always agree wiuth DR's ministry style and the pointing out of people in a meeting. I felt though, that he was always over-ruled by Mary Black and Diana because they were felt to have more spiritual insight and revelation, so he let them have their way often. It stemmed back to him being over-ruled by Miss Taylor for the same reasons. Again, it's this concept of women being in charge and getting their way. Of course, after Mr Black's death, they didn't have to worry about that anymore. The other leaders must think DR is OK to do as she does.

Clive, it was hearing things in sermons and prophecies, which I did not feel comfortable about, which first led me to question the validity of the teaching and realise that a lot of what I heard did not equate with the Bible. So lets hope that present members of SMC do what you suggest. Not sure they will though, if they are content with things as they are. Often it takes a specific occurrence which tips the balance and leads to a person deciding to leave. Yes, Clive, the teaching and atmosphere in other charismatic and pentecostal churches is not the same as that found at SMC. There are some super churches out there.

"the Jewells have seen a lot of hardship and tradgedy over the years and the fact that they kept any faith at all is to be admired, even if the faith is a bit twisted where Joan is concerned" and "Yes Derek was a lovely man and sadly died far too young" do seem to sum up my recollections of them, as a memeber of a youth group that the Jewells run in Bucks. Although I fell out with them over an issue of their treatment of a young girl crying in church, who had family concerns, I believe overall, and with the benefit of hindsight, that they were genuine and good people. I was sad to hear that Derek had died and to read that Joan has left SMC, makes me happy and underlines something of her character. I have aimed ill thoughts their way in the past, but it was a long time ago, and I was strong enough and able to leave over that, and a few other issues. I would be very surprised to find anybody having real concerns with Joan and her family. If I met her in a pub I would buy her a drink.( well I am safe there ).

Hi Rensil

Don't worry, none of what is said in SMC affects me in anyway, or any of my family. We were well aware of what was being said about them in the church but my Dad taught us to be thick-skinned and not care about what anyone says about us because all that matters is that God knows the truth of our lives and he's the only one we need to answer to. Many others left the church after my folks as a direct result of the rubbish that was being spouted from the pulpit about them. I actually thank God for the rubbish because it opened so many people's eyes to the utter tosh being spoon-fed to them and allowed them to see clearly enough to get out of there, fast.

My folks are still great friends with all the old members and they still have contact with quite a few people still in the church. Anyone who really knows them will know that they are two of the most godly and caring people you are likely to meet in your life and God has rewarded them in many ways over the years.

I am a bit surprised though that Ma Jewell was never mentioned after she left because she was such a strong and amazing person and she gave up all her time at church camps to man the cook-house and make sure everyone was fed both physically and spiritually. You're very right, she should have been celebrated and sorely missed especially by the leaders and it's very sad that she isn't. However, on the plus side, the church that my folks and Ma Jewell ended up in, down South, have celebrated Ma Jewell's life and all of the members have openly spoken about how her strength helped them to get through difficult situations in their lives and they are a very loving congregation who also openly thank God that they have had the privilege to know Ma Jewell and my folks. That church was in desperate need of the leadership and love shown by my folks and Ma Jewell and I believe that God put them there for a reason.

Even though so many bad things have been said about them in SMC, you won't ever hear a bad word about anybody, in or out of the church, from my folks. When it used to affect me a lot, they would tell me just to take it to God and leave it with him because he knows best how deal with people who have 'dark mouths'. I did leave it with God and I'm much more at peace now in the knowledge that God will eventually expose the lies and the deceit for what they are.

Miss Taylor spoke of many visions over the years, when I was there too, but not one single one of those so called 'prohesies' has come true in the intervening years - not a single ONE, not even close! What gets me even more is that I knew Diana when she first joined the church and she was not a holy person (quite the opposite) members of the congregation should know that pastor Rutherford has a dark past and has a complete cheek to be admonishing any other person in the church since I expect very few of them have done the things she has in her past. Instead she should be humbly thanking God that he blessed her (if he has indeed blessed her - which I take with a pinch of salt myself). I would be more inclined to say that I think the devil is more at work in SMC than God is and I fear for the lives of the people who still attend the church and believe, without question, that the leaders are somehow annointed and closer to God than they are. That can't possibly be true because people who are close to God do not speak badly of others in public and they certainly do not tell lies about other people, of that there is no question in my mind.

What hurts me most is that perhaps the visions for revival etc. would have come true if the leaders had stepped aside and let God do the work he promised he would but instead they just got in God's way and the massively dwindled congregation is a testament to that fact. There are churches all over the world who ARE experiencing a revival and a growth in their numbers because their pastors and leaders are allowing God to have control and not usurping his place at the head of the organisation.

God has work for everyone to do and if his will is not being done in SMC, he will move his people on to places where they will be able to do the work he has given them and that's a sad spiritual loss to SMC; but he will deal with those leaders in his own way and, with our prayers, hopefully at least some (if not all) of the present members will have 'the scales lifted from their eyes' so that they can see more clearly that what they are involved in is not healthy or godly in any way.

Clive,

I listened to the interview you posted and found it extremely interesting and food for thought. The imagination is a very powerful thing and is part of that 70% of our brains that we don't use on a daily basis - I tend to think of it as the spiritual part of our brain which can make all sorts of connections we couldn't make with the concious mind. It was very useful and I wouldn't mind hearing the whole thing sometime, thanks. PS I didn't have to sign up or anything I just got straight into the interview.

As always, my prayers and thoughts are with everyone here and those still entrenched in SMC. God moves in ways we can't always understand but he knows what's going on in SMC and he will deal with these people when the time comes.

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Stephen
I was sad to hear that Derek had died and to read that Joan has left SMC, makes me happy and underlines something of her character.

Stephen, I think you’ve misread previous posts. It wasn’t Joan who left SMC - it was her mother-in-law - “Ma Jewell” - who - unlike so many other feeble yes-men, sycophants and toe-the-liners - stood up to the SMC leaders INCLUDING Joan and in the end felt compelled to leave. The Joan you speak of here has been a pastor of an SMC branch for many years, and is it seems very central in what goes on there.

Talking of which, I do find it questionable that posters here often are happy to describe congregants as being fine upstanding and sincere humans, while blaming everything on the SMC leadership. Some blame must lie in all the people who simply let the leaders carry on as they do. All the non “Ma Jewells” still in the church must be either so fully “true believer” about the SMC modus operandi that they side with them on everything, call them “hard liners” or what you may - or instead they are clearly spineless or too gullible to call out their naked emperors. The congregation here - not just the leaders really is morally responsible at the end of the day for what is being done “in their name”. Of course there will be a proportion of them who have simply been scared and cowed into obedience on all this. But the problem is, it is the responsibility of every human being to ensure they are not being duped, are not being misled.

Nobody should get a free pass out of their responsibility to carefully question everything. The failure to do this is why we have so many problems with religious fundamentalists right now.


Clearly the character of Joan Jewell and her Waco-esque clique of self-appointed and self-declared "anointed prophets" is what constitutes the problem here.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 01:40AM by Clive.

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cbarb

Clive,

I listened to the interview you posted and found it extremely interesting and food for thought. The imagination is a very powerful thing and is part of that 70% of our brains that we don't use on a daily basis - I tend to think of it as the spiritual part of our brain which can make all sorts of connections we couldn't make with the concious mind. It was very useful and I wouldn't mind hearing the whole thing sometime, thanks.

cbarb,

glad you found it interesting. If you listened to the entire sound cloud clip that I edited and put up there, you will in fact have heard the whole interview with Tanya Luhrmann. There was no more.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2012 01:22AM by Clive.

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Clive

Clearly the character of Joan Jewell and her Waco-esque clique of self-appointed and self-declared "anointed prophets" is what constitutes the problem here.

The forum post editing feature timed out before I was able to correct myself here. I really should have written “behaviour” here instead of “character”.

Clive
I think it is a combination of fear, insecurity about leaving a comfort zone, subtle manipulation by the leaders, spiritual soul ties with leaders, and being in a vulnerable condition, it's all these which can keep people in SMC. Knowing they can't and mustnt question anything, fear that God will punish them if they speak up or leave, these keep people in SMC. I totally agree that we each have a responsibility for our own life and beliefs. And that is the frightening thing, that people seem to lose that individual sense of responsibilty and the ability to think for themselves and to be themselves, when they join such a church with a controlling leadership.

I noticed that there were many people in SMC who take on the traits of the leaders and become controlling aswell, in their relationships with others. That is frightening too because it means that people's personalities could be changed just by being controlled by abusive leaders. I did see personality changes and I probably underwent some too, which explains why it can take years to re-adjust to normal life after leaving SMC. It's a type of mind control.

I don't think it's a simple matter to expect people to take responsibility, if they have become embedded in an abusive church for many years. Let's hope that more do question things and decide that they want more for themselves out of life and discover that there is life out there. For young people who have been brought up in SMC by their parents, they have to decide if this way of being is OK for them or not. Many kids did leave when they reached their mid-teens, so these ones have been able to take resonsibility for their own lives.

Ah yes Clive, I thought that Joan Jewell had "passed into the shadow". I shall put away my sackcloth and take this damned ash off my face. It realy messes the mascara up. That explains a lot, as I couldnt understand the about turn, and potentially, leaving family anf friends behind, to the mercy of the wolves!!!! I was confused too at the Ma V Joan link.

I hope it is not Waco-esque, as there were very illegal goings on there. Although the thought of a full FBI raid on Struthers may bring a smile to some of the forum members faces.

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Stephen
I hope it is not Waco-esque, as there were very illegal goings on there. Although the thought of a full FBI raid on Struthers may bring a smile to some of the forum members faces.

The interesting thing about the Waco incident, is that even though the predicted “end of the world” didn't come about, many of Koreshs followers - even survivors from the fire, still refuse to admit that maybe they just make a mistake.