Uh, I also was using "masterbation not making you blind" as a metaphor as well. Meaning--if it isn't dangerous (that is, definitely not even coming close to meeting the cult criteria), then believing in the unproven (ie. mental masterbation) won't necessarily harm you (ie. make you blind).

And using your example of the abused child being disappointed when God doesn't help them -- you know, there is always the potential for a worst case scenario in any situation. Disappointment is part of life. A child believes that its parents are God for the first few years of its life--and I think the devastation of finding out that that isn't true (especially if the child were to be being raped by their own parent--worst case scenario) is probably worse than any spiritual crisis that someone goes through. We can't protect everyone from believing in fantasy--and, if it's not harmful--what's the problem?

And yes, there is documentation on placebo effect--and not specifically on the RS spin on it. But what are clinical studies worth if the theory behind them is not relevant to arenas outside the lab? My sister in law believes that a patented "oxygenated" water is making it possible for her to double her water intake--necessary to fight the cancer she has--and something she feels she wasn't able to do prior to finding this "special water". Now, I have read articles that say oxygenated water is bogus. What's more important here? Making her see that science doesn't support her belief? Or the fact that her belief is helping her to drink the required amount of water she needs?

In short, science PROVES the power of belief in affecting one's experience in the placebo effect-- the RS church teaches the same thing, but without clinical studies. And, given RS followers do not have the same hardcore dogma as Christian Science which teaches this to such an extreme that it encourages people not to go to the doctor, I don't see the harm. Remember--I have personal experience with the belief system of RS. I am cult sensitive. The RS world was more of "Trust in God, but lock your car".

I reiterate: believing in something that is not proven to be safe and effective is potentially harmful. Equal care should be given to the things that we put into our minds as those which we put into our bodies.

If the RS Church can provide useful and helpful empirical, measureable evidence based on viable data from their studies of the placebo effect, and if their experiments were conducted in a scientific manner with double-blind experiments and statistical analysis, I'd like to see the data.

That's the science.

However, if it's all just theory, anyone can manipulate that theory in order to manipulate and control a group of people.

That's the religion.

God is just a placebo for independent thought.

I am only persisting in this argument so that you can lighten up and not worry about your friend so much.

Presbyterians, people who belong to kite flying clubs, Amway salesmen, people who are fanatical about Star Trek, etc. ad nauseum-- ALL invite non members to social functions (ie. picnics) in order to maybe attract new members--this is not necessarily a menacing thing. Go to the picnic, have fun--and be sure to grill everyone you meet there about the "science" that they claim to believe.

That entertainment alone would be worth attendance.

You obviously do not need to believe in the unproven--but, your friend, in this point of her life, might.

The worst outcome I ever saw anyone experience in going to the church (myself included) was the feeling of disillusionment when realized it wasn't the end all of belief systems. So what? I personally believe that some strong doses of disillusionment never hurt anyone.

I reiterate--the RS church is not a cult. This is not my opinion, this is fact based on their not meeting the criteria for being a cult.

ANYTHING has the potential for being harmful.

Believing that driving to work is a safe and effective way to get to work does not make driving safe, nor always effective. But, I'm sure you've never considered questioning that, right? I'd say that this assumption people make is generally MUCH more harmful than assumptions that lead people to become a religious scientist--and I am thinking that you are not making great arguments about fallacious assumptions about car safety on vehicle discussion boards?

I do agree with you on one point--The RS church is not truly science-based in that it doesn't conduct scientific studies. The name is a misnomer.

Science is science and religion will never be science. But, for that matter, science will never be religion and history has proven through the millenia that humans want religion.

Bottom line--there are MANY dangerous religions that your friend could have gotten caught up in--and RS is really not one of them. Be happy that she will never tell you that you are going to hell, never say that there is only one right way to look at things. She may, however, try to tell you to lighten up--and that maybe more good things might happen to you if you did :) No guarantees, of course... :wink:

Thank you for your feedback, banters, ideas, and interesting debate. Happily my friend is no longer attending the RS church and has gotten into Irish dancing instead.

To address your point about the church attendee you know that ended up disillusioned, I say that s/he could definitely find a more fun and productive way to spend a Sunday morning!

That attendee would be me--and yes--you are right! :lol:

I was with the Church of Religious Science for 18 years.

I would not call it a "cult" - but it was VERY destructive to gradually eroding my critical thinking and over time put me out to lalaland. I lost a LOT by relying on Science of Mind treatments. I'm thankful I found the James Randi website, Michael Shermer and this site here last year.


It's hard to explain to people how utterly devastating it is when you get hooked into psuedoscience and fanciful thinking too heavy. It literally destroyed my life.

I have been outspoken under my real name, and it has helped a few people. But I'm tired of the fight, and am just trying to rebuild.

Have spent a lot of time talking with a former member of the Ramtha cult, we have the same trajectory of gradually losing our touch with reality. So that's a little comforting.

Apologies for the ramble, just want to confirm that this stuff is very dangerous.

Thanks, magnumpi. What you called a 'ramble' was useful.

There is much pseudoscience used in LGATs and 'human potential' organisations nowadays too, and the effect as you so well describe it - 'gradually losing our touch with reality', 'fanciful thinking', and 'utterly devastating' - is spot on.

This pseudoscience cannot be properly backed up by proper scientific verification, and often great leaps of assumption are made by these groups.

As you sadly found, buying into it can have a terrible effect on one's life, and those of others affected indirectly by the affect on the people directly involved with such groups.

It would be nice to hear more from you...maybe some of the more damaging details of your experience, and how you moved out of the pseudoscience mindset.

This article is especially good: The author speaks of bridging the chasm
between rational/scientific thinking and New Age. She ended up changing careers
as a result.

[www.csicop.org]

Characterization of Quack Theories

[quasar.as.utexas.edu]

Constructing a Logical Argument

[www.infidels.org]

Just a brief comment about Religious Science and Doctors...They are not Christian Science..
People of New thought(Science of Mind,Unity,Divine Science) Believe that positive thinking and affirmations are very necesarry to help you heal.

But they also believe that GOD works through the Medical field.(DENTIST,MD, surgeons, transplants etc) And they encourage all to always seeks medical attention when needed. While you do positive affiermaions and prayer..[/b]

Hello its me again I was surprised that no one had a comment about Religious Science and Doctors..as I mentioned in my other comment. New thought is Not Christian Science. Christian Science dont believe in going to doctors..Religious Science believe that God works through all things.

Louise L. Hay who is a famous Religious Science author. Cured herself of Cancer. She is the first one who will tell you that although she did not get chemotherapy, she does not encourage others to do that because she know full well that GoD works through doctors and sometimes surgery or medical treatment is necesary while you work on yourself through positve thinking and meditation.

my question to one of the other comments is why would you stay with a group for 18 years if you gained no benefit. RS uses simple universal principles that work no matter what religion you are in..