Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
AJG
()
Date: April 01, 2007 02:05PM
[b:49759ecfdb]RRMOD[/b:49759ecfdb] Further, if you had been doing your job properly you wouldn't have allowed LIVERPOOL WRITER to make that comment about why don't abusive wives leave their husbands. The dynaimcs are completely different!
Are we we going to include EVERY social ill and problem is this discussion, or are we going to stick to the main problem?: How can this KCF be stopped from doing any more harm? Also, even if they did manage to suddenly shut down Mirs Doyle, do you think that all the people currently attending would just say to themselves: "Oh, so Cheryl Doyle was a fraud after all, and I've just wasted 1-20 years of my life listening to this fraud, And I helped finance this fraud! Oh well, never mind - plenty more churches to attend."
Finally, if all these EXPERTS are worth their salt, why aren't they out there shutting down cults (and similar organisations) instead of sitting on their backsides writing books. How many more books do we need on this planet?
Are we we going to include EVERY social ill and problem is this discussion, or are we going to stick to the main problem?: How can this KCF be stopped from doing any more harm? Also, even if they did manage to suddenly shut down Mirs Doyle, do you think that all the people currently attending would just say to themselves: "Oh, so Cheryl Doyle was a fraud after all, and I've just wasted 1-20 years of my life listening to this fraud, And I helped finance this fraud! Oh well, never mind - plenty more churches to attend."
Finally, if all these EXPERTS are worth their salt, why aren't they out there shutting down cults (and similar organisations) instead of sitting on their backsides writing books. How many more books do we need on this planet?
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
dragonflyer
()
Date: April 01, 2007 07:36PM
Hiya kennelwood welcome aboard,glad to see your post on this forum,i'm also glad you never got involved with kcf,saved yourself alot of prolems,well done you sussed them out.Hope you can contribute some more.
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
dragonflyer
()
Date: April 01, 2007 10:08PM
To all current members of the fellowship,all things aside i urge you to leave kcf.I do know some of you have your doubts,you have a gut feeling that things at kcf are far from right,you are not stupid,no one can stop you from thinking things through.I promise you you will see things differently once you pluck up the courage to get on your toes and leave.Some of you have been stopped from persuing things that you would like to have done in your life,things that are not bad in themselves.On a personal note i miss some of you at kcf,i had known you for some time but cause i left you know that it would be bad for you to see me.I feel your pain at thinking there is no way out,but there is! beleive me ,once you make up your mind there are people who will help you and not condemn you,and make sure you are not alone.for heavens sake do it! dont waste anymore of your life trying to please others.Leaving kcf is NOT turning your back on God.You will feel such a relief in time when you leave.Please at the very least think things through.I have met some who have left,and i tell you its been truly wonderful,i'd love to see more of you ,we all would.I know some of you visit this site ,you are not alone! God keep you .
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 01, 2007 11:03PM
AJG:
No one is "preaching" to you.
People just don't agree with some of your comments, as you seem to blame the victims of destructive churches, talk in circles and dismiss the comments of others that don't share your view.
Books and education are a very meaningful component of helping the victims of cults and abusive churches. And we do need more books and education on this subject.
This board is about education and sharing information in an effort to help people victimized by destructive groups and leaders.
Some groups have disolved or lost many members, when those hurt by them come forward and speak out.
The profiles of battered women and cult victims share many of the same features. There is a similar pattern of coercive persuasion and manipulation. And women victimized by controlling partners often blame themselves rather that their abuser.
See [www.culteducation.com]
FYI--"Shutting down cults" is not the solution in a free society. Such groups have the right to exist within the law. The best response to cults continues to be public awareness.
No one is "preaching" to you.
People just don't agree with some of your comments, as you seem to blame the victims of destructive churches, talk in circles and dismiss the comments of others that don't share your view.
Books and education are a very meaningful component of helping the victims of cults and abusive churches. And we do need more books and education on this subject.
This board is about education and sharing information in an effort to help people victimized by destructive groups and leaders.
Some groups have disolved or lost many members, when those hurt by them come forward and speak out.
The profiles of battered women and cult victims share many of the same features. There is a similar pattern of coercive persuasion and manipulation. And women victimized by controlling partners often blame themselves rather that their abuser.
See [www.culteducation.com]
FYI--"Shutting down cults" is not the solution in a free society. Such groups have the right to exist within the law. The best response to cults continues to be public awareness.
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: April 01, 2007 11:14PM
AJG:
Here are some parcitical "warning signs"
See [www.culteducation.com]
[b:31a7be8eb8]Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.[/b:31a7be8eb8]
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
[b:31a7be8eb8]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. [/b:31a7be8eb8]
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
[b:31a7be8eb8]Ten signs of a safe group/leader.[/b:31a7be8eb8]
A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.[/b]
Here are some parcitical "warning signs"
See [www.culteducation.com]
[b:31a7be8eb8]Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.[/b:31a7be8eb8]
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.
No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.
No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.
Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.
There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.
Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.
Followers feel they can never be "good enough".
The group/leader is always right.
The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
[b:31a7be8eb8]Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. [/b:31a7be8eb8]
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
[b:31a7be8eb8]Ten signs of a safe group/leader.[/b:31a7be8eb8]
A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.
A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.
A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.
A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.
A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.
A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.
A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.
A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.
A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.
A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.[/b]
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
David_In_The_Light
()
Date: April 02, 2007 02:17AM
I hear the building was broken into 2 weeks ago. What was your perception of it?
Was it:
a) We are under attack from demons, its all part of the attack, we must be doing what God wants us to do?
b) We must be going dreadfully wrong somewhere, we’ve lost God’s protection?
c) We just become another crime statistic in Merseyside?
I could be way off the mark here, but I bet all en sundry at KCF opted for option A
Tell me I’m wrong?
Did anyone entertain the thought that it may just be one of the other two, If you did, well done, you’re starting to break free of the mind set that is within this place.
Now begin to question in you’re mind,
What if the leaders are not telling the truth?
Why are the feelings I have about this place more inline with the check list above?
Why am I still here?
Kennelwood: you picked a great name
Was it:
a) We are under attack from demons, its all part of the attack, we must be doing what God wants us to do?
b) We must be going dreadfully wrong somewhere, we’ve lost God’s protection?
c) We just become another crime statistic in Merseyside?
I could be way off the mark here, but I bet all en sundry at KCF opted for option A
Tell me I’m wrong?
Did anyone entertain the thought that it may just be one of the other two, If you did, well done, you’re starting to break free of the mind set that is within this place.
Now begin to question in you’re mind,
What if the leaders are not telling the truth?
Why are the feelings I have about this place more inline with the check list above?
Why am I still here?
Kennelwood: you picked a great name
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
brokenbycheryl
()
Date: April 02, 2007 02:35AM
Welcome Kennelwood,
Do you know your name still brings up loads of dark feelings in me lol. Good to see your point of view on here....
Do you know your name still brings up loads of dark feelings in me lol. Good to see your point of view on here....
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
firefly
()
Date: April 02, 2007 02:36AM
Hi kennelwood, welcome!
RRmod- thankyou for that info i hope it proves helpful to some people who are reading this forum.
Nobody should be above reproach- asking questions is one of the parts of bein human, its how we figure outwhat is good and right and normal- and also if something is wrong and bad and how to put it right.
You can't ask questions in kcf- why? Have you not got a brain, are you not perfectly capable of thinking things through?
RRmod- thankyou for that info i hope it proves helpful to some people who are reading this forum.
Nobody should be above reproach- asking questions is one of the parts of bein human, its how we figure outwhat is good and right and normal- and also if something is wrong and bad and how to put it right.
You can't ask questions in kcf- why? Have you not got a brain, are you not perfectly capable of thinking things through?
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
AJG
()
Date: April 02, 2007 04:37AM
[b:85854db64a]RRMODERATOR[/b:85854db64a]
I don't blame victims of cults; I believe they have SOME responsibility for their own well-being - there is a subtle difference! I should know. Some years ago I become friends with someone who had been in a cult in the 70s. She left but she never recovered. She ended up committing suicided.
Kennelwood has shown that it is perfectely possible to get involved with such groups and still keep your wits about you! In contrast, I know of at least one person in my area who is attending a well-known Christian church. It was reported to me once that he said that he would "jump off a cliff" if his leader told him to, such was his respect for the man. Does this sound like a well-balanced individual to you?
I don't blame victims of cults; I believe they have SOME responsibility for their own well-being - there is a subtle difference! I should know. Some years ago I become friends with someone who had been in a cult in the 70s. She left but she never recovered. She ended up committing suicided.
Kennelwood has shown that it is perfectely possible to get involved with such groups and still keep your wits about you! In contrast, I know of at least one person in my area who is attending a well-known Christian church. It was reported to me once that he said that he would "jump off a cliff" if his leader told him to, such was his respect for the man. Does this sound like a well-balanced individual to you?
Kirkby Christian Fellowship
Posted by:
AJG
()
Date: April 02, 2007 05:01AM
[b:9f13de67bd]RRMOD[/b:9f13de67bd]
If the best solution according to you is public awareness then why do groups like Scientology still exist? And indeed, exist very successfully. You know what they preach is rubbish, I know what they preach is rubbish and I would hope that everyone reading this knows what they preach is rubbish. This doesn't stop them!
And then there are groups like JWs whose theology is so bankrupt it's truly amazing that ANYONE with half a brain believes it. Yet, I have often been approached by well-meaning individuals wanting to convert me and invite me to their meetings.
I don't dismiss people's views, I just know where they're coming from. Most of the people on this forum seem to be talking through hurt feelings, and understandably so given what some of them have been through. But this alone isn't going stop our Mrs Doyle from deceiving and manipulating people, is it?
If the best solution according to you is public awareness then why do groups like Scientology still exist? And indeed, exist very successfully. You know what they preach is rubbish, I know what they preach is rubbish and I would hope that everyone reading this knows what they preach is rubbish. This doesn't stop them!
And then there are groups like JWs whose theology is so bankrupt it's truly amazing that ANYONE with half a brain believes it. Yet, I have often been approached by well-meaning individuals wanting to convert me and invite me to their meetings.
I don't dismiss people's views, I just know where they're coming from. Most of the people on this forum seem to be talking through hurt feelings, and understandably so given what some of them have been through. But this alone isn't going stop our Mrs Doyle from deceiving and manipulating people, is it?
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