AJG, you are right about that kind of divination predating medieval times, although it was still present in those times (just look at the way witches were tried). And yes, that goes right back into ancient times, even into the Bible itself, and it would be very easy to claim a biblical basis, eg from Acts. I don't doubt that is exactly the sort of scripture KCF would point to for justification.

I could see that you were trying to give an objective opinion, but I think you were wrong about how the media would react. "If it's so bad, why do people still go?" doesn't work as a rhetorical question (ie if it's meant seriously to suggest that attendance = validation), even if a journalist might use it to provoke some discussion.

AJG- if you've lost interest may i ask why are you still here? Genuine question, i'm not trying to get at you.

These past few days this site and all the things connected with it have been heavy on my mind. Its such a bittersweet place here isnt it? Drudging things up that i've kept hidden and placed firmly in the furthest recesses of my mind- its hard.
I really struggle with forgiveness. I believe that to forgive someone is not to cover up their wrong but to acknowledge it- and forgivness doesn't just benefit the offensor but also the person wronged.
So for years I could never even think of forgiving them- they made my blood boil over with anger. And now time has moved on and perhaps soothed the pain, and sometimes i think- yeah i forgive them. And other times (like when ive jus been updated on the latest news related to them) it all comes back and it's sort of like i'm back at square one.

Does anyone else struggle like this with forgiveness? Does anyone feel they have or can forgive them? Does anyone think that they'll never be able to forgive them?

Hi Fire,
I know what you are saying? Forgiveness is hard especially if there is no forgiveness from the other side. You feel like you are caught in a spiritual trap. All you can do is try and kepp your side of the street clean. It has taken since 1991 to forgive them. When I forgave her I wasnt as frightened of her and went back to see her on more than 6 occasions to talk about reconciliation . I was able to look her in the eye and she still didnt accept she had any part in what happened to me. That s not my problem I have swept my side of the street clean that is that was expected of me. I think forgiveness is a long process. Coming on here has stirred up my pain once again but I embrace that pain because I know if I can face it and deal with it I will be all the freer for it.
One of the things I have learned is that I am powerless over people, places and things and to hand things over to God when things are too much. I am not a saint I am a human being full of human frailty. Just like Cheryl is a DAMAGED PERSON AND THE RESULT OF AN IMPERFECT CHILDHOOD. Like we all are however we have had to face ourselves because we were brought to rock bottom by Jezabel. I stopped seeing her as the great prophetess a long time ago that helped in the forgiveness process. However certain things have to be stopped and what she has done to so many lives is abuse. I m not waiting for her to repent. We the damaged and those whom she still damages who are wanting to leave but feel they will lose all of their friends overnight. Dont worry you will end up leaving when things get so bad. You will have no choice.

Love to all,

BBCx

I found your comment very helpful bbc thanks.

Do you think that cheryl actually believes herself? Does she actually think that its God tellin her to do these things to people? Or is she unconcious of everything that goes on as a result of her actions?

Lotta questions on me mind- please answer the ones above if any. All of em are just things ive been mulling over lately.

Firefly Han xx

I have to say whats all this about mentioning names???
Everyone is accountable for their own actions not just Cheryl and Dave sometimes the only way people can repent is being faced with the truth...The truth has been said in this forum whether people find it distasteful or not. The leaders have hurt me to not just Cheryl and Dave. David you know that otherwise you would have not apologised to all of us. I was in ministry there I have had to make ammends to many people as a result of this site. It is not a bad thing to name names ,that is part of everyones brainwashing not to gossip and it is error. The only way people will face the truth is if we tell the truth. Carol you really hurt me and damaged me for the way that you treated me at the end, you stabbed me in the back and helped break my heart. That is the truth I will not be censored and controlled by anyone ever again...

Hi Fire,
Beyond doubt !Cheryl knows the truth I have confonted her many times. I am just one of many. She is calculating , devious and manipulative. She is determined to hang onto her throne no matter what... But God is bigger than her and it makes me laugh, as I know what is in store for anyone that hurts Gods trusting sheep... She wont win Fire I know that in my heart of hearts. So be comforted her time is short... All the lies and pain will be uncovered ... Dont you worry about that. As to whether she is mentally ill and chooses to stay in denial is not my business...
All I know is the end of all these abuses is at hand ...

Love,

BBC

Hi there,
BBC; is your site a ‘slag KCF off’ website?! (I’m kidding!)
Firefly; I think you have said a lot of very important things in your last couple of posts. I can’t speak for everyone, but I struggle to forgive. It is such an important thing to wrestle with, and I think some days I win and some days I don’t. Someone once painted me a very graphic description of unforgiveness; saying that it is like trying to hurt someone by drinking the poison yourself. It eats away inside you and doesn’t even touch the person it’s aimed at.
Your last post also made me think; would you agree with the statement that hurting people hurt people? Hearts harden, when we are hurt it is harder to let people in and trust again. We keep people at a distance. I know from my own experience, I can much easier justify dismissing someone, not spending time with them, or even lashing out at them (sometimes consciously, sometimes not) if I feel there is a risk of me being hurt.
I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread about being sensitive to control in other churches they have visited. I think that is something I have struggled with and a great example. I visited a church, just recently where the preacher said our relationship would grow with God if we sign a commitment to his church. It was only the second time I had visited his church, and from what I could see it was fantastic. But this one thing made me reject it outright. Maybe because of the hurts in my past I chose to do that, because of the suspicion and the control issues I have? Maybe next week the guy will get up and say he was wrong, maybe by my questioning it he will decide it is wrong, maybe I am wrong and overreacted…
I guess what I’m trying to say is if you do feel hurt by someone, that they have rejected or lashed out (and I’m not trying to justify abuse here, or any other hurtful action… at the end of the day we still have a choice in how we choose to act) maybe there is a reason behind that?
One thing I do know is that we do lots of things subconsciously, things that only the outside world, our friends and family see. Until we can face up to the challenge of that with humility and grace, we can never grow and move on.
Thank you for making me think firefly, and thank you all for being so open and willing to talk about things without rejecting.
PB

i do agree that hurting people hurt people. After i left the fellowship i became a horrible person (i wasn't that nice in there but i got worse when i left, like really volatile and just plain nasty) especially in school where i guess looking back i displayed some of the controlling traits that had been ingrained in me from the way the fellowship ran. And i hurt people.
I can also relate to the defensive 'shell' and keeping people at a distance- i'm very selective about what i reveal to certain people and always try and suss them out before i can really trust them.
And what you were saying about churches, i walk into a church- any church and immeadiatly i go into some kind of cynic mode i guess and i suss and anaylse everything- the people, the person at the front, the band, sometimes even the banners and things they have on the wall. i guess its a kind of defense mechanism so i'll never be caught in a kcf trap again.

Do you think we'll always be like that? Do you think it'll get better over time, perhaps? Or is there something we can do to help ourselves?

I left KCF in 1991 and I am still very suspicious. I dont think we should have been so trusting in the first place to be honest. I think you should always weigh things up . I left a church cos the pastor said newcomers had to fill in application forms to join. Church is a free gift from God just like salvation I will not fill in forms to feel accepted. A coda/alanon 12 step programme helped deprogramme me from a lot of the KCF brainwashing. But Im still finding things today and its been a long time. I think learning to look at life one day at a time instead of thinking will I ever be free has helped. All I have to do today is hand over my life to God and do the things that are needful to help my recovery eg helping other people who are trying to get through this, That helps that how I maintain sanity.....