I think that was really well said onlyme and vassago. I know I have said things about people in the fellowship on here and whether right or wrong maybe i shouldn't have said them the way i did.
It is hard to resist making them out to be ridiculous coz thats what they do.
Speaking as a person who ignored people on the street before i left- the realisation of what i'd done and how it made people feel when they started doing it to me was horrible. I made ammends with the one person i felt i needed to (i don't think i did it to any1 else) and they were very forgiving and i became friends with them again. So if anyone, post leaving came to me seeking forgiveness i would forgive them.
However i do struggle with the fact that i basicly don't like people in there and then when i hear they've left i see them in a different light- i don't automatically like them again but i see them differently. I don't really know if I'm right or wrong in that.
I don't hate them, hand on heart i don't- its taken a heck of a lot over the years for me to get to a place where i can say that truthfully. I pity them if anything- i was once like them and know how suffocating it is.
I'm sorry for some of the things i've said- i think i went a bit too far on occasion- if only they had an edit function on these forums!

I'd like to echo onlyme and vassago- if ur angry then ur angry, if ur hurt then ur hurt but be careful with your words, because if anything people in there need to realise that we're not like them. And like onlyme said- it may well strengthen their resolve that they are in the right.
I was listening to some guy talk today and he was saying that you can either fight opression with violence (sorta the fire with fire approach) or you can sit and do nothing, or find another way to positively work against it which leaves them without a leg to stand on.
I.e contacting the charity commission or something else that i haven't come up with yet!
The press is risky because of the spin that they choose- the echo once reported a story regarding me in a roundabout way completely wrong and skipped over the facts so they could portray the story how they wanted.
Maybe rather than just directing them here you could say a bit about your own personal story and offer to do an interview and say that there are many other people also willing to be interviewed and if they get bak to you sayin who are these other people then post it here and people who want to talk to them can pm their contact details?

I hate to put a wet blanket on all your aspirations to get rid of Cheryl Dolye, but can I offer some sober judgments.

If there are any of you that are still attending KCF and posting negative comments on this site then you're not doing cause much good. Most people (including the Liverpool Echo) would ask the question: "If you disagree so much with the place and the people running it, why do you still go?"

This is not a place of work; no one is forced to attend or to give money to this organisation. As I stressed in a previous entry, the law (Charities Commission) is only interested if there is evidence that the law is being broken. And notice the word "evidence", not opinion.

Suggesting that someone may or may not be a lesbian (which isn't against the law!) will also not do your cause much good; it could harm it.

I once had dealings with an authoritarian (self-appointed) pastor who wanted to dictate to me which home group I should be in. I didn't bother arguing with him; I just left the church and went somewhere else. There are other choices - we're not living in the Middle Ages!

It's difficult for people who are involved in real financial scandals like Farepak to get any kind of justice. What hope do you think you've got?

If I lived anywhere KCF I would attend myself to see what the place is like. But I doubt I'll be able to make it in the next few years, unless I find myself in Liverpool for another reason - and that's not likely to happen.

Best wishes

Why are we on this site? to be healed, to explain, to see justice? I can only echo what onlyme, firefly etc have said, we do ourselves no service by saying certain things about certain people who are still in kcf. I know plenty of stuff about others there, but its not relevant to this site. Two persons i hold responsible for the abuses here, and they are the two people i have named, the pastors cheryl and david doyle. I have not made any comments on things that have no bearing on what has happened to me and my family, thats for others to decide. Please if you are going to 'name' names, let it be for the correct reasons.

I guess the "lesbian" accusation only has currency (if true) not because there's anything wrong with being lesbian, but because of the hypocrisy. But I know nothing about that or where that rumour came from, so I'll keep quiet about that!

[b:34a85dc0a7]AJG[/b:34a85dc0a7], I have to pick you up on one thing you said: "no one is forced to attend". One quality of cults and abusive religious groups is that people are [i:34a85dc0a7]manipulated[/i:34a85dc0a7] into remaining loyal. Yes, there may not be bouncers on the door physically preventing members from leaving, but their psychological equivalents are everywhere ingrained into the organisation and its members. I think that's a basic fact about cults that most people, including the media, have no problem accepting.

You also wrote "There are other choices". The problem with cults is that they strip people of their choices. The irony of your statement that we're not in the Middle Ages is that a church like this exists precisely there, in that kind of medieval mindset - the church is controlled by prophecies, dreams and magical revelations from its leader. Did you read the story about someone being accused of sin on the basis of stones being picked from a hat? This kind of divination is straight out of the Middle Ages! It's easy as an outsider to say that there are other choices, but psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, this church and others like it are all about manipulating people into a condition where they feel they have no other choice.

On another point, I am doubtful that many, if any, of the folk voicing their opinions here are still part of the church.

[b:34a85dc0a7]Onlyme[/b:34a85dc0a7], I hear you. I too believe the members are as much victims as the rest of us here. If anyone is to be "attacked", then it should be the leaders. I don't want to condemn anyone for being hyperbolic (quite a few sarcastic references to Nazis, Hitler etc!), as the enormity of the religious abuse they've experienced far outweighs a bit of sarcasm, but as far as we can, I think we should avoid being too inflammatory. It runs the risk of putting current members totally on the defensive, and then their ears are shut to our message immediately.

I may set up a page specifically for current members that takes [b:34a85dc0a7]David in the Light[/b:34a85dc0a7]'s idea of posing questions to members. I think it is generally agreed that the best way to approach members of a cult is not to attack their leaders outright, but simply to present the evidence and ask them to weigh it up for themselves, drawing their own conclusions.

Keep up the good work, all!

AJG- have you actually read through what we've been saying at all? I think that its quite clear (and correct me if i'm wrong anyone) that all on here are ex-members of this cult.
I certainly don't aspire to get rid of Cheryl Doyle- that suggests that her 'throne' is empty for someone else to replace her. I would like to see the group dispersed and the 'church' shut down.
What you don't seem to understand is the diffence between authoritarian pastors and cults- trying to force someone into a house group and seriously damaging peoples mental health, destroying family links, etc are two very different things.
This isn't a financial scandal- money is not the issue at all here so i don't know where you got that idea.
And like Liverpool writer said- they manipulate and control people through various methods. I guess it'd be hard to understand unless you'd been through it or are close to someone who has. But at least be sensitive to what others have been through- and at least read fully the conversations we've had prior to the last few pages!
Regardless of your veiws on the charity commission it is one of the ways that we can do something, if it doesn't work then fine- we tried. But we must try.

[b:0e3d12d01f]LIVERPOOL WRITER[/b:0e3d12d01f], I am merely trying to offer an objective viewpoint. People who don't attend church often have little understanding of the problems faced by people caught up in such circumstances. A reporter for the Liverpool Echo (or any other media outlet) might well say, and with good reason: "If it's as bad as you say it is - why are people still going?"

You need to find out (and get evidence) that the law is being broken, if indeed it is. If they are smart enough to either not break the law or cover their tracks then your best bet is to get someone on the inside who has the courage to question what is going on (preferably in front of the leaders) - and plant seeds of doubt in other members' minds. You also need someone who is strong enough to withstand any accusations levelled at them like they've been sent by the devil!

You're wrong: The practice of drawing lots doesn't even belong in the Middle Ages. From what I know the first century Christian church stopped using it very shortly after Jesus ascended; the last recorded incident in the Bible of this sort of behaviour was to pick the Juda's replacement. But it doesn't matter - if the leadership are using such methods and getting away with it, then all they have to say is, "the Holy Spirt told me such and such" and people will believe it.

Although I have never experienced anything as bad as what you describe, some friends of mine were involved with something quite similar in my home town.

Best wishes

FIREFLY: No, I haven't read everything; when people start calling others lesbians and peddling personal information as gossip I lose interest faster than a Scientolist loses interest in reality! Two wrongs don't make a right!

I undertand everything perfectly. I have seen two such situations in my home town and each time had close friends involved.

By all means try the Charities Commission, it's your time you're wasting not time. I think you'll find they're only interested in hard evidence - not hearsay; they deal in justice not empathy!

Best wishes

I felt uneasy about criticisms/comments giving names and citing behaviour of current members of KCF...so I chose to remain silent about it on here. But it has now been mentioned and it seems we are all in agreement about keeping personal comments about individuals (other than about Cheryl & Dave) out of the forum. I am relieved about this as I do not think it is pertinent to what we are trying to achieve...to hold the leadership accountable for the lives they have wrecked and to ensure that they are unable to continue to do this to others. Also to bring to the attention of the Charities Commission any irregularities we are aware of.

AJG....I think your comments were very dismissive concerning the damage done to former members of KCF and their families. Liverpool Writer has given a great reply concerning the ensnaring that goes on in cults and the inability of members to leave! For most, unless you deliberately run for your life, there are no options open to you. I can only assume you have never been a member of a cult or suffered the kind of emotional and spiritual abuse which we have all experienced.

And again I'd say....peace to our troubled hearts.

Trina,
That comment about lesbos and the beatles white album made me and my hubby howl...You have to laugh or otherwise it gets seriously depressing.
love,
BBC

The idea of setting up a site for KCF to view is important...
That is why I put the biblical comments up on bad leadership and abuse. Because the way KCF are trained to think is through scriptures. The people on this site have all experienced abuse and are all at different places of recovery. That is why I started another private site for people to share things in confidence...

[kcfrecoverysite.spaces.live.com]
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