epitts75:

There is some controversy regarding the Chabbad Lubavitch.

See [www.culteducation.com]

And there is some controversy generally regarding homosexual rights, including within the Jewish community and its respective religious denominations.

But there is no controversy or confusion about the claims of so-called "messianic Jews" within any segment of the organized Jewish community or the Israeli courts.

Apostate Jews that accept Christian beliefs have no right to return to Israel as "Jews" and they are not recognized as "Jews" without qualification by any branch of Judaism and never have been historically.

Your attempt to somehow change the subject by citing other issues, which are not relevant, doesn't change these facts.

You are not "Jewish" without qualification. If you wish to call yourself an apostate Jew, that would be accurate, but calling yourself simply "Jewish" is not correct and deliberately misleading.

You say,

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try to convince me that [Jesus] is not the Messiah

You are convinced, which is your choice, and that makes you a Christian.

This board has rules against preaching and/or proselytizing and is not to be used for that purpose.

Epitts, whoever taught you about Judaism is highly uneducated. Jews are not a nationality at all.

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epitts75
I am a Jew, I was born into a Jewish family, and I also believe that Yeshua is the promised Messiah of Isreal.

First, the nation is called Israel. Second, you can kneel down and worship the doorknob on your house if you want. However, it would be absurd to then say that "some" Jews worship doorknobs.

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(the non-obervant ones are the ones who reject their religion, but they are still Jews by heritage)

Untrue. I have non-observant friends who don't reject their religion; they simply don't observe it. Rejection is not the same as observation at all.

You practice Christianity yet refuse to call yourself a Christian. You reject an essence of Judaism and yet insist upon being called a Jew.

You have a lot to learn about Judaism. And basic logic.

You're a Christian. If you're secure in your beliefs and really think you're right, then you shouldn't be ashamed to call yourself Christian. If you can't call yourself Christian (Christians idolize Christ, whom you worship), then maybe your beliefs aren't very strong. I think it's difficult for you to let go of Judaism because deep down you simply aren't sure of yourself. If you were, then you would have no trouble embracing the Christian beliefs you profess to have.

Btw, I have Christian friends who have celebrated Pesach with me. However, they would never be so arrogant and ignorant to somehow assume they're now Jewish simply because they have celebrated one Jewish holiday!

I was not changing the subject. I was using a syllogism to explain my argument. A syllogism is three part argument made up of a major premise, a minor premise and a conclusion...

All birds have feathers,
Penguins have feathers,
Penguins are birds.

Using that line of reasoning I said:

By the rabbis definition, an apostate is a person who has disregarded a commandment.
The rabbis have disregarded the commandement regarding homosexuality.
The rabbis are apostate.

This is the same reasoning used to convict myself of being apostate...

By the rabbis definition, an apostate is a person who has disregarded a commandment.
I have disregarded the commandment not to serve other gods (so they say).
I am apostate.

When considering these two syllogisms, it would appear that both myself and the rabbis are apostate. Therefore, neither of us are capable of judgement of Torah. I say who cares what either of us think anyway? It only matters what G-d thinks.

epitts75:

Yes, you are an apostate.

Other than that your attempt to change the subject through false arguments is not relevant.

As you know there is no rabbi that would recognize you as anything other than a apostate Jew.

And the Israeli courts would not allow you to immigrate as a "Jew" under the Law of Return because you are an apostate.

These are the historical facts and rational points relevant to this topic.

Epitts is definitely now changing the subject to homosexuality because he (or she) cannot refute that he is practicing Christianity and not Judaism.

By Epitts' logic:

Jews are monotheistic and worship no one but Hashem.
Messies reject the Torah and worship a Jewish man.
Therefore, messies are Jews.

As long as the moderator keeps allowing Epitts' proselytization, the Christian wolf in disguise will keep preaching and trying to twist the Tanackh.

[u:887212a681][b:887212a681]Messies are not recognized by the group (Jews) to which they profess to be members. [/b:887212a681][/u:887212a681] In my opinion, continuing to allow the messy message to be broadcasted just validates their fallacy of claiming to be Jews. Evangelists will argue anything (even illogically) to attempt to validate their own opinions. Moderator: is this forum really the place for it?

rachel1965:

Yes. But it has been interesting noting his arguments.

It helps for others to see how ridiculous the his claims are.

But it seems like he has run out of gas at this point.

How can you say I am in disguise? I have been blatantly honest about my beliefs. I have hid nothing.

Is it prosyletizing to quote the Prophet Isaiah? If so, feel free to delete these quotes. I'm not sure I understand your definition of prosyletizing...but here it is. Isaiah says:

Stop trusting in man, who has but breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

and,

O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path.

And for the record, I don't reject Torah. Some 'messies' do (as you call us). But then, so do some real Jews or whatever you might call them. My mother rejects Torah, and she doesn't believe in Yeshua, but I think she just really likes lobster. At any rate, I'm not losing steam. I'm just flabbergasted at your refusal to think. I am something of a socialogist, not by education, but by nature. As I watch people in their different groups it seems to me that most people have already decided what they believe. Then they go about creating a character that they attribute to G-d so that He will be what they want Him to be. It is the rare person who seeks out G-d to find out who He is and what He wants of us all. I've probably overstepped my bounderies of what is allowed on this list, but you don't need to kick me off. I'll go quietly...into my little hole and pray for your hard hearts. And for the record, I am not a man. I am a young woman...who is hiding in her office writing this while my little children run around in their diapers and make a mess of my house.

epitts75:

You really have run out of gas.

Now it's about "lobster"?

Eat lobster or pork, as a Christian, it's not necessary for you to follow Jewish dietary laws (see Acts).

Your acceptance of the New Testament as scripture defines you and not what's on your dinner plate.

You say that you will "pray for [our] hard hearts" and that we have been "led astray."

Please understand that I don't think you will suffer in some way because you don't believe as I do. And that I respect your decision to become a Christian.

It's your choice to make that change and believe in whatever religion you wish.

Go and be well and good luck with the kids.

I have a lot of involvement with cults (from the outside, not a member), and believe the group 'jews for jesus' has cultlike attributes.

However I'm astonished at some of the claims here made about not just Messianic Jews, but Jews as a WHOLE. I take them as racist to say the least. I will not mention whose comments it is however.

In this thread, its asserted that Jews are a RELIGION. Yet around 90% of Jews say they are NOT RELIGIOUS at all.
The only ones that (typically) tend to say Jews are a religion, are (some) people in JUDAISM, who believe that ALL JEWS should be a part of Judaism--and that all Jews are relgious. My response: Go ask the Jews how many of them actually believe this--and you'll get about 10% or under. Most of Israel is not even adherents to Judaism, and Jews across the world believe ANY RELIGION THAT THEY CHOOSE.

Being quite familiar with cults myself, and even having problems with Jews For Jesus as a group, I'm outraged by the slams on Messianic Judaism, which is a HIGHLY HIGHLY diverse group of Jews with VERY DIFFERENT BELIEFS. Slamming ALL MESSIANIC congregations is the equivalent of slamming every Christian church in America--because Messianics are associated with 100s of christian churches.

As far as Jews being different race, that is partly true, because their races have mixed from being in so many countries. Anyone who says Jews came from all the races originally has a bad bad understanding of Jewish history.

Slamming 90% of Jewish people, as well as the entire Messianic movement (which is so very diverse) shows a complete lack of understanding of either.

Messianics do not conceal that they believe in Jesus, and have a right to consider themselves Jewish by blood (and not religion alone). It is openly taught that we are not Judaism. It is openly taught that we hold Christian doctrines. However, because Christ is Jewish, we therefore have the right to call ourselves Jews.

Messianics are associated with 100s of different Christian churches, some are charimatic, some are not, including many mainline churches such as Lutheran. Often the beliefs reflect those of modern Christianity more than Judaism.

I'll note that this entire forum is about cults, and no evidence has been posted here at all that Messianic (churchs) use cult-like techniques. I've never heard such a thing, yet Messianics have been around for years and prior to that were known as Hebrew Christians.

I've been a Messianic for 10 years, was Christian before that , and there is no control at all by Messianic congregations. Going to a Messanic congregation is the same as attending a Baptist, nondenominational, or any other religious group down the street. You just attend Shabbat service and go home and work a job like everyone else.

Now if you single out certain groups like JewsForJesus, that is a completely different issue. That group does concern me.

messnc:

You are going over old ground that has already been addressed repeatedly on this thread.

Jews that convert to Christianity and are involved with "Christian churches" are apostate Jews and no longer simply "Jews."

Rather than call themselves "apostate Jews" they could simply identify themselves as "Christians."

Jews who have converted from Christianity to Judaism would likewise be considered "apostate Christians" not "Christians for Judaism."

They typically would call themselves simply "Jews" or Jews that coverted from Christianity.

There is no such thing as a hybrid religious group, such as you wish to suppose and there is no historical or genuine basis for it.

Jews are Jews and Christians are Christians.

You are only offering the same failed arguments.

Let's move on.