An odd historical footnote.

And the sect was considered heritical by Jews.

They were apostate Jews.

Rick,

So do you have a definition of when a sect ceases being a sect/denomination and becomes a seperate religion. (Other then your personal say so? Just to clearly delineate this issue for some of the posters.)

Clearly Christianity started as a Jewish sect (at a time when Judaism isn't as neatly defined as now, it was quite likely that some of push to more clearly define Judaism came from the rise of Christianity.)

For me personally to define the Ebionites, simply as apostate jews is to oversimplify the diference between pre and post temple destruction Judaism. I think the Pharisees would have viewed the Saducees as apostate jews, and the Essenes viewed both the Pharisees and Saducees as apostate jews.

Although I agree with your general point, it is deceptive to pretend to be Jewish when you are not and one foot down the path to a cult practise, rather akin to say the idea of "heavenly deception" in the Moonies.

Running through some groups:

JW are clearly an Arian Christian sect, since they use exactly the same text as other Christians, (albeit with variations in wording at times).

Mormons have their own texts, and therefore I would group them as a seperate religion.

The SDA's are however somewhere in between; the evanglelical wing is like a denominaton but some sections use Ellen White's writing as virtually a seperate scripture.

So one pointer would be once you've established or added a seperate scripture your not the same religion.
Since "messianic jews" have to some message from their messiah (ie the NT), they have added a scripture and are not the same religion as Judaism.

malleeboy:

This thread is about fundamentalist Christians that claim to be "Messianic Jews."

This is a relatively recent event dating back to the 20th Century.

A discussion of what is a "cult" is not really relevant to this thread.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The "Frequently Asked Question" section of this site makes distinctions between a destructive cult and other groups, such as controversial religions etc.

If you want to discuss this issue you should either start another thread or find one that specifically discusses that subject.

Moderator, thank you VERY MUCH for exposing the wolf in sheep's clothing with regards to the messies, who are an insult to both Jews and Christians.

To use their reasoning, I have decided to become a[b:73841e8d2b]....."Christian Without Christ!"[/b:73841e8d2b][/size:73841e8d2b] That's right, I, as a Jew, have decided to redefine Christianity.

Sound absurd? The concept is no more absurd than Christians redefining Judaism by rejecting the Torah and yet claiming to be practicing Jews.

Hi, here's my opnion on the matter. I don't speak for anyone but myself and im not trying to proestheletize (not sure if i spelled that right).
Heres some ways I think will help to distinguish Messianic Jewdaism as a legitamate combination of both Jewdaism and Christianity.

In respect to both Jews and Christians, Messianic Jews tend to stress the Torah and New Testament more equally rather than favoring one or the other as the supreme word. I kind of think that Messianic Jews believed that there never had to be the creation of a new faith to fit Jesus in. Merely, the Jewish faith just needed to evolve.

It seems however that the Jewish faith did not evolve to accept Jesus as Messianics had hoped for, and the Christian faith had evolved but in the process lost all of its previous heritage of the Old Testament and just started new with Jesus. I say this because most Christians do not worship Passover, Yom Kippur, Sukah, etc.

Messianic Jews might view Christianity as a continuation of Jewdaism. The both should go hand in hand rather than choosing one or the other.

Messianic Jewdaism is an idea. Just like Orthodox, conservative, baptist, lutheran, etc. are ideas. Saying messianic Jewdaism is offensive to Jews and Christians is not so different than saying Orthodox Jewdaism is offensive to Conservative Jewdaism, Baptist to Lutheran, etc.

Everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs. Trying to classify someone as this or that is trying to generalize and devalue the complexity of what they believe in.

Names shouldn't be deceptive. Messianic Judaism presumes that they are Jews and that is not the case, they are far more christian than jewish. A better name would be something like Bi-covenantal Christians.

The word is proselytize, and it's a huge agenda of the messies. Millions of dollars are spent each year trying to lure innocent Jews into their lair.

Quote

It seems however that the Jewish faith did not evolve to accept Jesus

That's because Jesus did not fulfill the requirements of a messiah laid out in the Torah.

And, at this point, you are proselytizing. And quite frankly, you have displayed no knowledge of Judaism in your post. As such, it is highly offensive that you attempt to defend a deceptive group that pretends they are Jewish.

Quote

Everyone is entitled to their own personal beliefs.

Agreed. But what is not agreed is to label those beliefs with a label stolen from another religion.

Practicing Jews do NOT worship Jesus. End of story.

It seems you have a lot of anger and animosity in your post. You have plenty of derogatory and condesending remarks to say. I take great offense at you saying that Messianic Jews are a deceptive group. Please keep your religious bigotry to yourself.

jgh7:

It is not "religious bigotry" when Jews object to being targeted for conversion by another faith.

Nor is it "bigotry" objecting to those outside Judaism using Jewish identity falsely for the purpose of converting Jews, such as the group "Jews for Jesus," which was founded by a Baptist.

Interestingly, Christians object to the use of their religion and its scriptures by Mormons. And Christians refuse to accept the claim that the "Book of Mormon" is a continuation or completion of the New Testament.

Christians also will not accept Mormons as "Christians."

Is this somehow an expression of "religious bigotry"?

By the way, it's Judaism not "Jewdaism."

Quote
jgh7
It seems you have a lot of anger and animosity in your post.

You obviously are quite angry and upset that the messies have been exposed. Messies claim to be Jews yet reject what is written in the Torah.

Here's a question: why are you (or the messies) so desperate to be called Jewish yet refuse to accept the basis of Judaism?

Imagine how ridiculous it would be if a Southern Baptist wanted to be called Muslim simply because he "celebrated" a few Islamic holidays.

I don't know if you have the ability to understand this, but it isn't the beliefs of messies that is deceptive. People are free to worship as they choose. However, choosing the name "Judaism" to describe a group that rejects basic Judaism is both ludicrous and deceptive. As I said previously, millions and millions of dollars have been spent by messy groups in order to lure unsuspecting Jews to baptize and have them practice Christianity in the name of "Judaism." And it's all a hoax.

If Christians want to adopt a few Jewish holidays and customs -- no problem at all. However, calling yourself Jewish because of it is very wrong.

I once visited Egypt. Am I now an Egyptian?

A wolf in sheep's clothing is still a wolf inside.