My daughter has been invited to some meetings and events targeted at young children
at some church near Aylesbury called the refuge which is part of some church in scotland called Struthers.

Although I am happy for my daughter to learn about Christianity, a quick google on this struthers memorial
Church produced some alarming information about cult-like behaviour related to their scottish parent churches.

Were those accusations just a few isolated cases or do they also apply to
This refuge group ? Are these just harmless "sunday school" activities with bible studies and hymn singing, or is there
Something more going on ?.

My daughter is keen to go since her friend seems to like it there. I want her to be happy and go along as long as its safe. Can somebody put my mind at rest? After all, just because some leaders in other churches that are part of this denomination have made mistakes doesnt mean
they are all like that.

Dear Concernedmother

The Refuge Aylesbury is actually what is called Struthers Memorial Church, London on their website. I agree that is confusing.

I think to ensure you feel your daughter is safe you should talk to Paiuline Anderson who leads this group and is one of the 6 church directors who control all 11 branches of Struthers Memorial Church. Ask her at least these 2 things:

1 Are any of the online stories about harsh treatment, banning people from meetings, praying with children for deliverance, belief that God speaks directly to the leaders so they can never be wrong or accusing people of witchcraft true or not? Have any of these things ever happened to her knowledge? She is a church leader so will likely feel obligated to be truthful.

2 Re your suggestion that some of these things are just mistakes people have made - ask Pauline if anything the Struthers leadership have done have simply been understandable mistakes. Which Struthers church leaders have made any mistakes and what were they?

I think the answers to these questions will tell you all you need to know.

There is a good page here on what specifically to look for:


[www.culteducation.com]


I would take any replies from a minister or functionary in this organisation with a pinch of salt, they are not about to 'fess up to a potential recruit, and every one looking for newbies will put a positive spin on their own activities.

Can you trust them because they are church leaders? In a word, no --- its as Churchill said about democracy, it requires eternal vigilance to prevent it becoming corrupt.

There is a Struthers thread here. You could post there and get some first hand feedback from people who have a far more long-term and closer association with this church than most.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Thank you Stoic and chester for the replies, but it seems to me most of the posters on the thread mentioned refer to the scotland churches.
and I not inclined to tar everyone with the same brush. In every denomination there will be good leaders and bad leaders.

So I would really like to hear more from people who have been to this refuge church, or at the least have had some dealings with the pastor. And yes, I might pay a visit this pastor. First i am going to make enquiries to my local vicar. A friend of mine goes to a pentecostal church called Elim and i think i'll ask her about this too when we next meet.

Hi Stoic


Just to be clear to you and Concernedmother.

I don't think asking questions of a church leader is synonymous with mindlessly believing what they then tell you.

At the same time I don't think assuming they are going to lie so not having the conversation is particularly healthy either.

Those of us who have been involved in the long discussion on the other Struthers thread are well aware of the serious problems in Struthers. Asking the kind of questions indicated would show up the fact that the answers are likely to be very unconvincing and will confirm all the concerns shared on this forum so far. In my experience Struthers leaders don't tend to lie - they tend to change the subject and avoid answering any specific questions. That is the warning to look for.

So- Concernedmother - if that is what happens if you speak to them you know to be very wary.

That said there is also great value in the checklist link from Stoic but in your case you probably don't have enough direct experience of what is going on in Struthers to know one way or the other. Likewise several of us have shared that we believe there are dreadful problems but we don't think you should be just automatically taking our word for it.

So back to my original recommendation. A short discussion with the leader will make things clear. Struthers leaders do not do well in conversations with informed people. That was my point.

Stoic - I'm not sure if you are a moderator here (you certainly do a lot of posting!). I agree that this should probably be amalgamated in the Struthers thread

Hi Concernedmother

I take your point about not tarring people with the same brush, you are quite right not to assume that everyone in a particular group has similar belief or behaviours. There are one or two things to note however.

I would for example suggest you start by applying that to the idea of not tarring things with the same brush to the word “church” as well. Just because an organisation has the word church in its title does not mean that it can be compared to other organisations that use the word church. I was a member of Struthers for many years, and there are many, many differences between Struthers and other mainstream churches - including Pentecostal ones.

So, when considering whether your daughter should attend, do not start with any assumptions about what Struthers is because it happens to have the word church in its title. In other words, do not tar Struthers with the brush you would use for other churches!

One of the things you probably underestimate is how insular Struthers is. Pauline may well have a different approach, but that is actually fairly unlikely as the whole Struthers movement consists of the 6 Directors (Pauline is one) and around 300 people who attend the church 5 times or more a week. You can see an estimate of the overall numbers at [latigo214.info].

Members of Struthers also go to full weeks of camp in summer and “conferences” at other holiday times, so any variations in approach are “corrected” there. If your daughter or others do get involved, they will be expected to attend camps and other events in Scotland, and would be strongly discouraged from attending other churches, although you won't be told that initially.

In addition, almost all members have no social life, do not take part in sports or other activities and have cut contact with any family who are not part of the movement. This means they have no real contact with other people and have a very different set of assumptions about life. For example, Pauline will probably not have attended any Bible School or other training and may not ever in her life set foot in another protestant church. (Attendance at any other church is not encouraged as it is considered as backsliding and opening yourself to temptation.)

I do not know this about Pauline of course – she may be an exception to this rule, but the whole model is that the church leaders are “anointed” by God and that is that – no other training is required, no understanding of theology or doctrine and certainly no training in counselling or other interpersonal skills as these things are seen as detracting from the pure work of the Holy Spirit. Leaders are prepared for leadership by attending Struthers meetings and having existing leaders pray with them while “laying on hands” coupled with a sort of apprenticeship of preaching and laying hands on others. This is all very authoritarian with no-one ever being allowed to question who is chosen to do what. As is witnessed by the Struthers thread on this forum, the greatest sin possible in Struthers is to question the leadership.

When you take all of this together, you will see why I think it is unlikely that you are dealing with an individual pastor with individual views, strengths and weaknesses – you are actually dealing with an organisation that is totally authoritarian and homogenous. The result is that the leaders and indeed the members of the congregation act the same way whether is it in Greenock, Gorebridge or Aylesbury. While many individuals are sincere, they have to conform with these practices and expectations if they want to remain part of the movement.

One final thing to be cautious about, and that is how to manage the situation if you do decide to try to extricate your daughter. Chesterk55 may well be right that the leaders “do not tend to lie”, but there are cases that they not only lie, they instruct young people to do so. I recall the case of a young person who went to the Falkirk church. Her parents decided she should not attend and, after a few very intense arguments, banned her from attending. She still spoke to one of the leaders of the church on the phone almost every day however, and this leader also regularly drove quite a distance to sit in the car with her during her school lunchtimes. On the instruction of the leaders, she lied to her parents about this.

You do not say how old your daughter is but, whatever the age, she will need a lot of support if she is stopped from attending.

@Chesterk55,
Just to clarify, I most certainly am not a moderator here, I am just another opinionated poster. I would suggest to all that my opinions, like all personal opinions including those of Chesterk55, also be subjected to scrutiny before swallowing whole.

However, the checklists linked to are fairly comprehensive and give a good idea of what to look for. They are not my checklists they are checklists that Rick Ross has compiled from other sources and made available for general use.

Quote
Chesterk55
I agree that this should probably be amalgamated in the Struthers thread

I’m afraid i don’t. My questions are specifically about this church and not its scottish sister churches. Of course i will take comments and experiences from the scottish branches seriously but so far it appears no-one posting up to now has actually had any contact or dealings with the Refuge directly or its leader. It seems to be largely assumptions based on what has happened up north. I do seem to recall at least one poster on the other long thread that came from this church but has since left, who’s husband first posted, and then the woman who used to be a member added her own posts. Maybe she can shed some light.

ConcernedMother

I can understand your concern and the dilemma over wanting the best for your daughter. One question Id like to ask is, are your daughters friend and her family a part of the Struthers church? My first port of call (and you may wel have already done this) is to speak with this girls Mother about your concerns. Her response may differ depending on whether or not she is a member of the church.

I know some members of the Struthers church, may dismiss those posting on the Struthers topic as bitter and twisted. It would be understandable for some to assume that we were a few that had bad experiences and now have an axe to grind so to speak. My personal reasons for posting on this forum is that hopefully my posts will prevent another person from being hurt. If you read my posts, one of my earliest negative experiences of Struthers was witnesssing a young girl (maybe 7 or 8) being grabbed by the arm and physically removed from the meeting by the church leaders (a primary school teacher) Ive since been disgusted at myself for not speaking out on this matter, although I did spoeak to other members at the time and was told that what she (the pastor) did was acceptable.

Regarding Pauline Anderson, I have personally heard of one case where she very much did fot the 'Struthers' mould, suddenly ostracising someone for no apparent reason, insisting they 'repent' (show remorse for and change their actions and behaviour) when they had no idea what they should even be repenting of and suggesting the need for deliverance from demonic powers. Their refusal to acknowledge wrongdoing (due to this lack of knowledge of what it was they had done wrong) was seen as rebellion.

As ThePetitor has said, if your daughter does become part of this group, she will be expected to go to Summer Camps etc where she will come into contact with the other leaders of the Struthers organisation. My personal advice would be to ask questions of the leaders, the other girls parents and other church leaders in the area. These leaders will probably be aware of any problems with this local church. I would alsp ask to see a copy of their Safeguarding Children Policy and ensure that all youth/childrens workers are CRB checked.

Any organisation that works with children and young people should have such a policy in operation. Personally I would steer well clear of an organisation thats doesn't.

I hope this helps and I hope that you find the best resolution for you and your daughter