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upsidedownnewspaper

Sure. I suppose I mean that in the case of "raw meat" that has suffered a trauma and is "trying not to know", I see "trying not to know" as a natural human coping reaction. Specifically in the case of "raw meat" that has suffered a recent trauma, a visit to the Church of Scientology and a go at the e-meter and a 'diagnosis' from an auditor that said raw meat is trying not to know, may force the raw meat to prematurely face issues that raw meat is not ready to face.

Well if you mean that a lot of people try to block out unpleasant experiences as a way to cope then I agree. In my experience you only truly overcome something if you can really face it head on though.

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are you suggesting that the raped, mugged, attacked O.T. III, would be able to walk away from the horror "in the first state"?

Yes - I'd imagine an OTIII would get over an horrific attack like that very quickly.

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But a reluctance to embrace Scientology is not a reluctance to believe it possible to improve one's condition.
And one can have an interest in improving one's condition and be willing to spend time to understand how to improve one's condition, without embracing Scientology. Right?

Right - that was me - I just formed the opinion that Scientology made the biggest claims about that improvement and decided to give it a try. Nothing ventured nothing gained as they say.

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I have always taken Scientology stories in the media with a grain of salt. I certainly doubt Tom Cruise ate the placenta and have always suspected the space-opera stories of Xenu (pardon me) have been propagated by a media reluctant to promote a controversial church. But nonetheless, I am skeptical of the church. Its goals as you've stated them seem to me to be very ordinary goals common to all humanity. And if Scientology is just a technique to achieve these goals, then it is easily argued that many people don't need the techniques as pushed by the church.

Well I'd agree that the biggest barrier to a sane society are the criminals and psychopaths. If there were none of them we'd be in a much better situation.
I don't know of anyway to help criminals and psychopaths become sane though if not through Scientology.

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The natural human condition is that condition of humans which has come before and will come again. The natural, clear state of the newborn baby who will grow and experience good and bad things and who will forge a way through a human life learning how to deal with both good and bad things.

Well even if it's not a human condition to be able to recover from horrible attacks, it's a nice condition to have.

And in fact, it does exactly that, right?: by OTVIII, you are no longer human but thetan, right or wrong?

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The idea that I am a divine being in control of my reality, really, quite frankly, scares me and leaves me feeling very alone and scared. And quite frankly seems to render the life I am experiencing no more important than a matinee movie at the local multiplex. Hopefully to prove my genuine interest in your religion (philosophy? study tech?), I tell you that. I feel dread at the idea that I have conjured this reality using my thetan powers; that cinema and chess and virtual reality have as much meaning as this life.

Well being scared of that would definitely tend to make you steer clear of Scientology! :) For me the idea that I could actually increase my control over my reality seemed worth checking out.
Frankly the idea that an all powerful god would put us in a situation where we have to experience horrific trauma in order to learn how to love seemed flawed to me.
Buch each to his own!

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Yes, genuinely. Are you interested in other religions?

Yes - like I said I looked into a lot of other religions. Probably spent most time on Christianity but couldn't find anything there that really felt real to me.
Having said that I believe Jesus was very spiritually enlightened, and I think both what he taught and what Buddha taught are very compatible with Scientology.

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Well I'd agree that the biggest barrier to a sane society are the criminals and psychopaths. If there were none of them we'd be in a much better situation.
I don't know of anyway to help criminals and psychopaths become sane though if not through Scientology.

Maybe one of the barriers, although this point is highly debatable. It revolves around a definition game... WHO defines what IS criminality ?, WHO defines what is is a psychopath ?, WHO defines what is a sane society ?

This "biggest barrier" theory is quite simplistic, as is much of the limited worldview of Scientology.

Scientology cannot account for the great social benefits derived from the Serotonin Specific Reuptake Inhibitors... a major class of emotionally regulating medicines now taken by millions of people for depression, excess aggression, obsessive thought patterns, compulsive behaviors, and wide range of behavior maladies and thought disorders can be directly traced to serotonin imbalances...

Do Scientologists acknowledge the existence of the neurotransmitter [b:94772f6831] serotonin [/b:94772f6831] ? Do they acknowledge the existence of the class of chemicals in the brain known as [b:94772f6831] neurotransmitters [/b:94772f6831] ?

News flash to Teegeack dwellers ( uhhhhh... Urthlings I mean ).... brains are filled with chemicals, we call these chemicals neurotransmitters, when neurotransmitters are imbalanced, brains don't work right.

The "biggest barrier" to a sane society may be neurotransmitter imbalances, which may result, in some cases, in criminality... but what causes criminality ? Bad Old Xenu ?

Did Xenu sneak up on us and invent the SSRI class of medicines in a diabolical plot to deceive us into thinking we were getting better ? Is the social benefit of SSRI medicines, which extends to millions of people worldwide, and does dramatically contribute to a "sane society" , just a big hoax ? These people actually experience no real improvement ? They are not really more sane ?

The substantial problem with Scientology is that it has a [b:94772f6831] badly impoverished model [/b:94772f6831] of what constitutes reality... and as a collective consciousness it has flattered itself into believing that this grimly narrow view of things is a form of enlightenment... Scientology is really an intellectual ghetto, and Tom Cruise is like the king of the ghetto, a spectacle to be sure, but a sad spectacle...

Anti-depressants are similar to cocaine and speed.
Of course they have an effect - but they don't help out much long term.

The fact that they have warnings about side effects such as heart-attacks, depression, increased risk of suicide amongst others tends to suggest they're a bit dodgy imo.

Plus they are extremely widespread yet they have done little in the last 50 years in my opinion to make people happier in general or reduce crime.

To decide the only way you can affect how you feel is with drugs is dangerous and downright unhelpful.

durham:

You have demonstrated that you support Scientology and its war against mental health professionals and any drugs developed by that are prescribed by doctors for psychological problems or mental desease.

You seem ready to recognize any mistake made by the medical profession.

What mistakes do your recognize made by Scientology and/or by L. Ron Hubbard?

I think it was a bit of a mistake not to build more accomodation at Saint Hill. Mind he had a lot of other things to do.

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durham
Anti-depressants are similar to cocaine and speed.
Of course they have an effect - but they don't help out much long term.

Define, if you would, what exactly you mean be the comparitive [b:15354191af] "similar to" [/b:15354191af] ... does "similar to" mean "functionally the same" ?

Take two well known chemicals, one is glutamine, the most common amino acid, your proteins are rich in glutamine, and a near identical amino acid, theanine, found only in the tea plant, [i:15354191af] camilla sinensis [/i:15354191af] ... yes, glutamine and theanine are structually near identical, but they have opposite activites in the brain...

Morphine is [i:15354191af] similar [/i:15354191af] to apomorphine, very different actions on the brain.

Yes, you could say that there are [i:15354191af] some [/i:15354191af] similarities between SSRIs, [i:15354191af] in some cases [/i:15354191af] and cocaine or amphetamines , to claim, which you are, that having some similarities, in some parameters, makes them [i:15354191af] equivalent [/i:15354191af] is absolute bullshit. As you well know, or should well know.

But, we digress.... so lets get to the nut of what we've been avoiding here by playing around with the [b:15354191af] psychotropic medicine discussion evasion routine game [/b:15354191af] ...

Who (as in WHO, which person, which organization, which authority, which source of knowledge) defines a "sane society"... who defines "criminality", who defines the word "psychopath" ?

Can you ? Have you ever ? Has anyone in Scientology been able to to this [b:15354191af] without [/b:15354191af] referring to circular Scientology definitions, like "sanity is the starte of clear" ... and "clear being the state of being free of the reactive mind" ..... but then, dear Scientologists, what is "the mind" ?

Oh Boy, here were go.... what then does this "mind" arise from ? What is the substrate of consciousness ? [b:15354191af] Is it the brain or is in not the brain ? [/b:15354191af]

Does Scientology believe that consciousness can exist indpendently of a substrate ? Yes ? Aha... of course.... MEST ! Matter Energy Space Time ! Filthy old MEST.... now then, dear hearts, what ARE brains made out of ?

Glowing balls of Theta ? Festering Xenu crap ? Enturbulated cosmic poo ?

Ever in your life looked at microphotos of [b:15354191af] brain cells [/b:15354191af] ? Ever see any engrams in there ? Not me... just good old evolution derived brain cells, no clams thank you....

Now, HOW did L Ron ever come to the conclusion that these erm... engrams existed ? Has anyone, ever, actually [b:15354191af] observed [/b:15354191af] and engram ? Has anyone observed this, ahhh... "galactic federation " ? What happened to those guys when they got finished with Xenu anyway ? Just left a bunch of body thetans kicking around poor ol' Teegeak ? Messin with the neanderthals in their simplistic beautiful selfs ?

How weird is this ? We CAN observe the physical reality of brain cells, and we can observe the chemical nature of brain cells, and we can make rational (or as you would put it, "sane") observations based on these insights... YET, we are supposed to discard what we can observe and what we can rationally conclude in favor of an absolutely bizarre theory who his own son, L.R. Hubbard Junior clained was hallucinating on mescaline when he made these "earth shattering discoveries"...

WHO defines the state of sanity and the sane society ? Who defines criminality ? Who defines "psychopath" .... a guy tripping his brains out on mescaline, with more experience in Occultism than science ?

OK, let's put his hypothesis to the test... a nice rude test... IF Scientology has the capacity to do the things it does, WHERE are the..... "great minds of Scientology" .... we will excuse the actors and celebrity contingent from this category as actors are primarily graded on their ability to [i:15354191af] repeat text verbatim [/i:15354191af] without thinking critically about it...

Greta van Sustren ? Gimme a break. Where are the great artists ? The great writers ? The great scientists ? the great leaders ? the political geniuses who owe their greatness to Scientology ?

The sad truth is [b:15354191af] they don't exist [/b:15354191af] ... the sad truth is that Scientology has not, and never will, produce a cohort of exceptional minds... If I'm wrong, be my guest, disprove me. Who are they ? What have they done ? What has their impact on society been ?

IF Scientology can live up to its claims of exceptionalism, where is the proof of those claims ? [b:15354191af] Where are the exceptional results of Scientology ? [/b:15354191af]

Now back to your earlier fallacy... that SSRI drugs "might work in the short term" .... SSRI have been proven to have long term efficacy, and have immeasurably improved the lives of those persons who would be debilitated otherwise, far above and beyond anything Scientology has done.

If I'm wrong, WHY have the SSRI medicines been so universally accepted
for such a wide range of mental disorders [b:15354191af] while [/b:15354191af] Scientology remains the butt of so many jokes ?

Perhaps the real truth of the matter is that Scientology was a great joke played by a great joker, and the last people on Teegeak to wake up to this dismaying truth are the Scientologists... and a painful awakening it will be when it comes... too painful for some to bear, I have no doubt...

durham:

So despite the fact that Scientology as an organization has paid out millions of dollars in settlements, judgements etc. for its bad behavior and injuries it caused you see no mistakes?

And despite the fact that Hubbard's claims regarding toxins in the body have been proven wrong by medical science and related research you see no mistakes he has made?

What about the apology and award Scientology was ordered regarding Bonnie Woods?

See [www.culteducation.com]

You seem to be in major denial regarding all the mistakes Scientology has made and Hubbard's bizarre theories, such as his space alien theory learned by Scientologists at OT-3.

Of course you have not even reached "clear" or zero yet, let alone moved up to OT-3, so you don't know what Hubbard wrote about spaceships, aliens and so-called "Body Thetans" or BTs as part of his religious doctrines.

See [www.xenu.net]

Your posts here are becoming increasingly nonsensical, redundant and other than an example of a non-thinking Scientologist in denial, don't seem to offer anyone much here.

There is nothing objective, no meaningful substance to support your statements.

What is your purpose posting here?

Ahhhh. Mister Durham is hosting his body thetans... he is acting as their vessel, it is the body thetans who speak, not Durham... what is so strange about these Scientologists, per my experience with them as a pre-clear, is how their thinking/speaking is all the same pattern that they don't veer away from... as if they have all memorized an identical script that explains everything or explains away everything, and yet... and yet..[b:4749eaa776] they believe that they are thinking for themselves...[/b:4749eaa776] sure, it's a belief, and they believe it, but the outsider... you aren't an insider until you hit the OT levels, and the guy who was to be my observer, this arrogant, smirking, oh so comfortable with his load of shit OT6 superior human being was asking away his pointless questions to test my assimilation of.... what ? Their paranoias ? Their loyalty oaths ? There pretend-military organizational discipline ? Their clay models of prior incidents ? Their incessant e-metering for "issues" , mainly "issues" with Scientology itself...

And everyone, lockstep... bla, bla, bla... 20 years ago, and they sound exactly no different than they do today... no new thinking, no fresh ideas, no questioning.... just comfortable truths to memorize...

You won't get anything else out of Durham.... [b:4749eaa776] he's programmed to the tits...[/b:4749eaa776]

Well communicating with you two is somewhat of a challenge.

The most important thing in trying to communicate with someone is that the other person is interested in understanding. If that's not the case then it's nigh on impossible.

Apparently I have no idea about scientology yet am already brainwashed.

However I presumably know already how to brainwash people since I'm active at my local church. That makes you two brave guys for talking to me - or maybe that's why you're so set against understand what I'm saying.

durham:

When people disagree with you here about Scientology, this doesn't mean they don't "understand" you and/or are somehow "not interested in understanding."

What it simply means is that they don't agree with your opinions about Scientology and that organization's explanations about what it does and claims about its benefits.

Can you understand that?