"You are now way off topic."

I completly appologize for going offtopic as it was completely my fault for doing so, the only person I have to blame is myself. I will try my hardest in the future to not do this.


"Your questions have been addressed and answered."

I agree that you attemped to answer a part of my question, however some of my question were to be intended to be open ended so anybody can attempt to answer them beside yourself. I appologize if I may have some how suggested that some of my questions were to only be exclusivly towards youself as it was not intended to be.

"The topic of this thread is TZM. Please focus on the topic."

I agree with you and I will attempt to phrase my questions in the future so it relates to the topic starter in this thread. I suppose I need to start a new thread to talk about the information link above which I may intend to do so.

Quote

Yes I remember this. As I did think groups like TZM, TVP and Destinian were a cult I do not as of this moment think so now do to the lack of academic journals posted

Quote

My current stance on internet cults is that there haven't been enough academic journals really published (that have went through the peer review process) about the topic to really be defined as a group tat is purely on the internet and is a cult.

To find out what academic material does exist on internet cults, and how these are defined, you must yourself do some work.

Go to a university that has a sociology, journalism or current affairs department and contact faculty.

Go to their library and query the librarian/s at the research desk.

Those of us on RR.com can point out avenues of research.

But you have to do your own work. We cannot do your homework for you.

And as Mr Ross noted, the same criteria c

2012_CT:

The same criteria used for evaluating any group as a "cult" can be used to evaluate an Internet based group.

See [www.cultnews.com]

The group named within this study as "[T] Call of God" is an example.

This paper about deprogramming was published within a peer-reviewed academic journal published in China.

Also see [forum.culteducation.com]

Here is a discussion of the same group at this message board.

Note the definition provided of a "cult", which was first written about and established by psychicatrist and educator Robert Jay Lifton.

See Lifton's paper "Cult Formation" [www.cultnews.com]

"Certain psychological themes which recur in these various historical contexts also arise in the study of cults. Cults can be identified by three characteristics:

1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie."


An Internet based group can be evaluated based upon Lifton's definition, which I regard as the nucleus for most other definitions of cults.

And yes, lets keep the focus on THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT

It would be most interesting to hear from former ZM members or friends of ZM cadres
who can tell us what its really like to be on the inside.

Going to respond to corboy hope I'm not going off topic just felt it was needed to help. typed up a lot of things on my iphone sorry.

@corboy I much appreciate your effort in helping me. However I know, have written this subject matter in blogs/sites/papers many of times, and have done most of what you said I was just curious as to see if somebody could add to what I have at which they did but again much appreciated :).

I would suggest you, Ross, and others may want to check out this blog on life hackers as well as it may help someone out. I will include a article on anecdotal evidence that I highly suggest you and others read.

Reference

How to Determine If A Controversial Statement Is Scientifically True
[lifehacker.com]

You Should Downvote Contrarian Anecdotes[thobbs.github.com]


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


"It would be most interesting to hear from former ZM members or friends of ZM cadres
who can tell us what its really like to be on the inside."

Actually I may be able to help with that. Although I've never was a member of TZM I was working with the old TZM developers team (back in 2009). Long story short I was interested in a open source project they were working on called pootle. Pootle is a open source translation software that the developers were trying to modify for there liking. Again long story short the old TZM developers eventually broke off from TZM because they saw open source values as being more tangible than TZM value. They started a new group at first called "Resource based open source economy" , then the changed it to "resource based open source environment", and finally and my opinion the best "research based open source environment". When the TZM old developers decided to split from TZM to form RBOSE I had noticed it was a very bad split.

People like VTV for instance who I believe in this thread mention RBOSE had gotten very upset at the split and had at extent did forms of what I would define as very nasty things towards RBOSE. TZM higher-up's had ordered individuals to stay away from RBOSE because it harbored trolls. It was like a bad relationship where RBOSE broke up with the girl for numerous reasons and at that TZM decided to be very vindictive for a length of period. It got to an extent to where TZM members hangout on RBOSE and attempted to try and recruit people from RBOSE back into TZM. TZM members even a blog was released with apparently RBOSE members personal information on it released by TZM members which we later found out was done by the higherup's within TZM (VTV is seen posting in the blog actually advocating the release of the personal information). I could go into more but I'll stop I believe that original altercation with the old TZM dev's and the higherup TZM itself was the fact that TZM higherup's ordered the Dev's to move onto teamspeak 3 server but the Devs wanted to stay on mumble (a voice over IP server) because they were already suing it and because it was open source, but the goal post got moved to the extent that TZM decided that they were harboring trolls or toxic people.

As RBOSE became it's own TZM and at that VTV had rationalize that RBOSE is a troll group because it had a individual by the name of Grits within the group. Long story short VTV promoted Grits as being the worlds worst wikipedia troll, as apparently he is apparently a individual on wikipedia who is problematic as he changes things around for instance "we landed on the moon" to "we never landed on the moon" in wikipedia. personally have never had a problem with Grits as well as I consider him a friend but others such as VTV had a problem to the extent they attempted very nasty campaign attacks using the TZM member base for lack of a better words attack drones against RBOSE. Peter Joseph knew this was going on and supported it all the way. They even used such tactics of posting Grits is real name as it's Codie Vickers and other personal information about him. N one within RBOSE can control anybodies behavior and most RBOSE members would not support individuals who do activities outside the group that are not open source related. To blame a group whose main purpose is open source on another individuals action is just not rational. Bottom line RBOSE is not a group on controlling peoples behaviorisms we're a group that's about developing and supporting free and open source solution. To cut it short VTV should have no business in what RBOSE does it separated TZM for a reason and the reason above are the reasons why, to try and control a group that has now split off and try to say who is apart of RBOSE and is not apart of RBOSE is silly but TZM tried to do this. It was a bad breakup, that could of been handled better.

The old TZM dev team was not started up by any TZM higher up's yet eventually the higherup's attempted to gain control of it. At that a lot of people within the team were not TZM members but like me were people interested in the pootle project as they had a irc channel on freenode for people to hangout on and many TZM higherup's had a problem with this as well. In the end RBOSE did it's thing and TZM barred it's members from going onto RBOSE communication mediums to the extent that Peter Joseph said on the TZM forum (which the forums are now down) to not go on any RBOSE communication mediums.

Since then I learned a lot about much bigger conspiracy oriented groups and have been following Alex Jones Prison Planet, Realiens, Reptilians, etc...

I have more stories on TZM (mostly simular events or worse) I could tell but I would be here forever typing up on my iphone. However I always thought from the start of learning about TZM/TVP that it's a utopian based group based around a RBE or for them it be a RBEM. I included in the reference section below some goodies other than material related to this topic above (but it's just a drop in the bucket). TZM is badly mismanaged do to incompetents but Peter Joseph is the person who calls the shots.

Reference

Peter Joseph says to not join RBOSE (archived website)
[st0rage.org]

Second page (archived website)
[st0rage.org]

What is the history of TZM and what is the difference with The Venus Project? Top
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Why it's a RBEM and not a RBE
" RBE vs RBEM: Out of a general respect to TVP's work with what they consider to be the proprietary notion of a "Resource-Based Economy" [RBE] and its definition, some in The Movement prefer to adapt to the term "Resource-Based Economic Model" [RBEM] to separate from the Fresco-specific association/definition and allow for a more general flexible understanding of the Train of Thought."
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Why did The Venus Project part ways with The Zeitgeist Movement?
[www.youtube.com]

Question 107 on TVP FAQ: What is your take regarding the removal of the Zeitgeist Movement as the activist arm of The Venus Project? (on the TVP website on why TVP and TZM split)
"The Zeitgeist Movement under the direction of Peter Joseph was not representing the needs or direction of The Venus Project. You can find a video response about the split here: Video Response"
[www.thevenusproject.com]

Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement split (good video on the Peter Joseph and Roxanne/Fresco fight)
[www.youtube.com]

Skeptic Project site has a lot of material on TZM/TVP along with other groups.
[conspiracies.skepticproject.com]

Zeitgeist movie critiques/reviews articles 1,2,3
[skepticproject.com]

VTV mentions RBOSE on Rick Ross site (was originally in his blog)
" It reminds me of an angry kid who is told he can't be part of a club some of his friends have formed so they say with anger: "Oh yeah!??? Well I didn't want to be part of your stupid club anyway!!!" Then they might go form their own club in retaliation. -cough RBOSE COUGH!-"
[forum.culteducation.com]

RBOSE website
[rbose.org]

Quote
stars
I knew a pedophile liberal who was very into this once...I don't like it. The media is making a video about how the media is controlling the world or something, I don't even remember it, whatever.

I am sure you can find "pedophile liberals" who are into almost everything. Including people of different religions, political beliefs, etc. None of that actually equates any of those entities of being bad or cult like.

Quote
2012_CT
Somone pointed me to this thread and thought I'd put down my thoughts on the matter.

This should be interesting.

Quote
2012
@VTV this thread is a few months old why revive it?

I was curious if the conversation had continued. I noticed that David Wish in another desperate attempt to suggest that TZM engages in "dangerous cult abuse" tried to suggest that just because some members of TZM are also involved in Occupy that therefore anyone getting hurt at Occupy Protests is evidence of TZM "cult abuse" which is asinine. It does not surprise me that you don't like that I brought it up again as it was an epic failure on the part of the internet stalkers who have perpetuated the "TZM Cult" myth on the internet.

Quote
2012
My current stance on internet cults is that there haven't been enough academic journals really published (that have went through the peer review process) about the topic to really be defined as a group tat is purely on the internet and is a cult. Therefore groups like TVP, TZM, or Destinian along with other suspicious groups cannot really fall under the label of being a cult because of the lack of evidence to back up a claim. The evaluation methods for cults as far as on Rick Ross site are purely for localized based cults (or close vicinity) and therefore trying to apply such evaluation methods on internet based groups should not be taken that seriously until there is more academic works that look into such matters. However I'm not saying Rick Ross evaluation method for cults is bad, I'm just saying that there needs to be more academic work on the possibility of if there could be a possibility that internet based cults could exist and at that would the evaluation methods differ (I assume they would) from the typically evaluation method.

You guys were all about suggesting that TZM met the "cult" criteria until Mr. Ross actually called you to task on the topic of evidence that you don't have about how TZM fits the medium. Now after months of abusing the term "cult" to try and bring negative attention to a group that kicked you off their internet forums for trolling your stance is to suggest "Oh well it could be a cult still... we just don't have enough information..." I think Mr. Ross handles this well below in his answer to you. But the bottom line is there is no abuse taking place. There is nothing dangerous being suggested, or implied in what TZM suggests. Eventually, you guys need to accept the fact that TZM is a political activist group that focuses on proposing alternative approaches to economics and technology for the benefit of all mankind. You may disagree with what TZM suggests. You may think the ideas are baseless. Poorly researched, whatever. But after studying real cults for a while to get more acquainted with situations of "group think" I think it is absolutely despicable that trolls abuse the term for their own vendettas. REAL cults seriously hurt people. And I think abusing that term is as bad as calling someone a rapist or child molester falsely.

Quote
2012
In that I am concerned that TZM and TVP are based in a Utopian ideology. A RBE (TVP's Resource Based Economy) or RBEM (TZM's version of a RBE called a Resource based Economic Model), are what attract the majority of people within these groups. In a RBE or RBEM people do not have jobs, resources are shared global and distributed equally amongst the Earths in habitants, if you want something you don't buy it you simply request it and the computer will figure out if there is a possibility based on the Earth resources if that item can be made.

And? So what? We suggest that the world pursue "off grid" technology and scientifically evaluate the use of resources. There is nothing religious about that. There is not even anything "utopian" about that. I would say what is utopian would be the idea that we can continue to expend resources on a planet with finite resources, and pollute what resources we have, etc and expect the planet to be inhabitable forever while we make more and more junk without any concern for the future. That sounds utopian to me.

Quote
2012
Long story short my concern is the young people or have nots in society who are attracted to a RBE or RBEM. Mostly young people although they can be older. My concern is that the younger generation hasn't really put in there time so to say, and therefore when organization such as TVP or TZM say things "like when you clock in to a job your walking into a dictatorship" or "that jobs are slavery", these kids could base there thoughts on this material as to why they do not want to work. At that no one is forcing anybody to work, just ask VTV although I believe he's close to his 40's I don't think he's had a job in a long time (a few years now), he often blames the system as to why he doesn't have a job; to the extent that he begs for money on his internet radio show so he can continue to pay his rent and have a roof over his kids head.

This sort of thing is further evidence of the internet stalking/cyberbullying you see. First of all, what hard data do you have to support your theory that TZM mostly only appeals to young people? You don't have any such data. But you typically rely on just making guesses and stating them as facts.

Secondly, you know nothing about my situation at home. Or what the "system" is like where I am at. You have never met me. You have never been to my home. You have never tried to look for a job where I live. Nor do you know anything about the situations surrounding things like child care, expenses etc that could make it hard to find a job.

It is true and public knowledge that I ask for donations for the work I do as an Indy journalist. That would include me and thousands of other journalists doing the exact same thing. Your choice to frame it as "begging for money" is a further example of the cyberbullying twist that you put on things. There are many months where I don't even need the donations and just turn the widget off and tell people to donate later. But you never mention that. And the last few times I have told people that I would not be able to continue and would have to work on other projects if donations did not come in. Because that was exactly the truth. That's not begging or panhandling. If people want me to keep doing it, then they will donate. If they don't, then I will move on to something else.

Quote
2012
VTV certainly isn't the only person doing this as I've seen similar situation in TZM/TVP as I can point out numerous example of individuals both in TZM and TVP that live off SSI and or often beg or request money from people in chat so they can pay for there rent.

Again, further unsubstantiated claims. Do you have documented evidence of membership of TZM who are on SSI? Or that people "often beg or request money from people in chat"? No. You don't. You are again just hoping that people will take your word for it and not challenge it.

Quote
2012
These people often detest money yet it's the very thing they need to live. I just think TZM/TVP could affect some young people who still have a chance in life to the extent that they justify not working because they have adopted a RBE or RBEM ideology.

There is absolutely nothing in the TZM activism that suggests that people should quit their jobs or give up their educations. Nor have you proven in any fashion that the people who are having a hard time who happen to be TZM supporters are choosing that lifestyle. It is a common conservative propaganda strategy to suggest that everyone who is having a hard time is only in that position by choice. After actually going out and talking to people in these situations many of which are far worse then mine I have yet to meet any of them who are there because they are lazy or more content to "beg". I think your entire notion of that is insulting to anyone in that situation and I honestly hope you get a chance to experience it for yourself.

Since you brought all this up in the hopes you could discredit me in the eyes of the people reading by painting me as some lazy person who begs rather then works for a living I am sure you would simply dismiss any of my own research on the topic, so this article in the Rolling Stone will have to do.

[www.rollingstone.com]

Quote
2012
At that these people have suggest numerous times that a RBE or RBEM or based on science when in fact it's not, to me it seems to be a utopian ideology that's entirely faith based rather than fact based.

In fact it's not huh? It's faith based? How?

The idea is to apply the scientific method to finding solutions to poverty, homelessness, violence, war, etc. It relies on facts in it's approach. Some of what we talk about it is theory, but before any of it would be put into practice it would be evaluated using the scientific method. Despite the numerous baseless accusations by the trolls who just keep saying "It's not based on science" over and over again in a propaganda loop when you break it down to it's base elements it is ALL about science. Jacque Fresco flat out admits that many of his designs may or may not be how the actual designs would be implemented. Everything has to be tested. The point is the METHOD employed.

Quote
2012
There are no academic studies on a RBE or RBEM, no peer reviews, no science, not even a tested model, there is simply nothing, and yet the believers in TVP/TZM say it's based on science some even say academics are bias (which is a possibility but still).

Actually people living "Off Grid" all over the world are already test models. And the vast majority of the technology we suggest is already being tested and peer reviewed. I would refer again to my post above about what the core of the matter is. We need to use the scientific method to rationally approach the use of resources with the goal of maximizing the standard of living of all people on earth. Whether that means we use Geo-Thermal energy, Solar Energy, Hydroponics, Aquaponics etc all that remains to be seen.

Quote
2012
The only way a RBE or RBEM can be implemented is on a global level as well and the only way a RBE or RBEM can be put in place is when the economy fails.

Miniature RBE's exist all over the world. As I already pointed out. It also can be implemented before any collapse in the economy. However big changes when it comes to trying new systems does tend to happen after collapses historically. Mostly because that is when people are willing to try something new. The American revolution. The French Revolution. The Bolshevik revolution. Etc. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is bad. But the reality is that is when changes like that tend to happen.

Quote
2012
I do think TVP/TZM RBE or RBEM ideology is silly but people do get suckered into it.

And as I have already proven, your representation or understanding of what the TZM/TVP ideology is flawed.

Quote
2012
I mean the main motivation for wanting an RBE or RBEM is not having to work. Its such a juvenile and incoherent ideology.

This again, is an attempt by you to make a statement that is baseless as if it is established fact. Do you have any hard data to prove what motivates most people when they want to pursue an RBE? No. You don't. You also seem to think that people will not be working or that not working is the goal. Menial labor would hopefully become a thing of the past. But people would still be working innovating and developing things that they WANT to develop. And there is data that proves that is an even more productive model.

As illistrated in the work of Daniel Pink:

[www.youtube.com]

Quote
corboy
And, whats so bad about discussing TZM here, on the RR.com message board. Whats so bad about 'reviving the discussion'?

TZM and its leader who isnt a leader are being discussed elsewhere, and quite vigorously.

Yet...somehow to 'revive the discussion on RR.com is considered not-good? Hmmm.

The reason they don't want to conversation "revived" here is because they failed so hard last time. They don't want this situation reviewed in a situation where they are not free to call people names, bring up their irrelevant personal lives, etc.

It was up and down but overall I think Mr. Ross did a good job of being impartial and unbiased in his review. They had several pages of chances to try and make TZM a "cult" and they had nothing. The response outside of this forum when they failed was to attack Mr. Ross or suggest that he is wrong or that there is just not enough research or whatever. (And just kept calling it a cult anyway)

Or they took what Mr. Ross said earlier about the possibility that it could at most be a "cult of personality" and then went around saying "personality cult" to try and grasp at straws.

Quote
Corboy
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:X-6_F02stD8J:[occupywallst.org]

It's interesting that you see again the same people who came here to try and discredit the Zeitgeist movement or call it a dangerous cult show up there trying to get Occupy Wall Street to hold the same view.

At it's core, what you are looking at here is a few guys who got banned from the TZM forums for being trolls who stalk us around the internet because they are hoping to see us fail. They devote HOURS of their lives writing blogs, stalking our Facebook pages, google searching our personal lives to try and terrorize anyone involved. It's not unique to TZM. People do this all over the internet when they get a bee in their bonnet. (Ironically, a lot of what they are doing to stalk TZM members reminds me of what Scientology does to people who oppose them.)

Quote
2012_CT
"It would be most interesting to hear from former ZM members or friends of ZM cadres
who can tell us what its really like to be on the inside."

Actually I may be able to help with that. Although I've never was a member of TZM I was working with the old TZM developers team (back in 2009). Long story short I was interested in a open source project they were working on called pootle. Pootle is a open source translation software that the developers were trying to modify for there liking. Again long story short the old TZM developers eventually broke off from TZM because they saw open source values as being more tangible than TZM value. They started a new group at first called "Resource based open source economy" , then the changed it to "resource based open source environment", and finally and my opinion the best "research based open source environment". When the TZM old developers decided to split from TZM to form RBOSE I had noticed it was a very bad split.

You are leaving out a lot of critical information. (No surprise here.) First of all, almost the entire basis of the "split" was because some of these people suggested that "Open Source" means that nobody can be banned. Ever. There was a lot of controversy over one person named Codie Vickers who was using our chat mediums and voice chat mediums for the purposes of severe trolling. I don't have access to the voice recordings that were done of the various things he would do, but to put it bluntly he was profane, loud, threatening, and overall incredibly disruptive. He was reported in USA Today as "The most destructive poster in the history of Wikipedia." A lot of the people involved in that project were also part of the "anarchist" community in TZM who did not want us to have any rules or moderators or authority figures.

I have since talked with Open Source developers about this, as in people who do things like work on Linux, Open Office, etc and asked them if they felt that Open Source meant never banning people from chat rooms or forums. None of them felt that was true. And further they acknowledged that disruptive people who are hindering the ability of people to be productive will have to be banned or removed from time to time.

Quote
2012
People like VTV for instance who I believe in this thread mention RBOSE had gotten very upset at the split and had at extent did forms of what I would define as very nasty things towards RBOSE.

It would probably be best that you not make a habit of trying to speak for me. That said, I feel you have the chronology of the situation messed up. Codie Vickers and other members of the RBOSE group actively tried to hack into our forums and communications mediums over and over and over and over in a harassment campaign for months.

Quote
2012
TZM higher-up's had ordered individuals to stay away from RBOSE because it harbored trolls.

This is a lie. Nobody has ever "ordered" anyone to do anything. It was stated that TZM would not be working with RBOSE anymore as long as it continued to harbor people who were actively engaged in cyberstalking/cyberbullying (Like Mr. Vickers) and for good reason.

Quote
2012
It was like a bad relationship where RBOSE broke up with the girl for numerous reasons and at that TZM decided to be very vindictive for a length of period. It got to an extent to where TZM members hangout on RBOSE and attempted to try and recruit people from RBOSE back into TZM. TZM members even a blog was released with apparently RBOSE members personal information on it released by TZM members which we later found out was done by the higherup's within TZM (VTV is seen posting in the blog actually advocating the release of the personal information).

Can you please link this blog? I would love to see it. That being said, the only thing I can think of that in any way resembles this is when someone in TZM anonymously decided to post the personal information of one of the trolls who spends his time making his blog revealing personal information about members of TZM.

Furthermore, you keep talking in this point as if the "higher ups" told people to do this or that. Do you have any proof of that? A lot of the other things you mention here are things that were done by individual members on their own with their own motivations, and not some masterminded plot by the membership of TZM.

Quote
2012
I could go into more but I'll stop I believe that original altercation with the old TZM dev's and the higherup TZM itself was the fact that TZM higherup's ordered the Dev's to move onto teamspeak 3 server but the Devs wanted to stay on mumble (a voice over IP server) because they were already suing it and because it was open source, but the goal post got moved to the extent that TZM decided that they were harboring trolls or toxic people.

No by all means. Please go into more. I would love to have more opportunities to fill in the blanks you are leaving in your story in the hopes to manipulate Corboy and Mr. Ross to your point of view.

Quote
2012
As RBOSE became it's own TZM and at that VTV had rationalize that RBOSE is a troll group because it had a individual by the name of Grits within the group. Long story short VTV promoted Grits as being the worlds worst wikipedia troll, as apparently he is apparently a individual on wikipedia who is problematic as he changes things around for instance "we landed on the moon" to "we never landed on the moon" in wikipedia. personally have never had a problem with Grits as well as I consider him a friend but others such as VTV had a problem to the extent they attempted very nasty campaign attacks using the TZM member base for lack of a better words attack drones against RBOSE. Peter Joseph knew this was going on and supported it all the way. They even used such tactics of posting Grits is real name as it's Codie Vickers and other personal information about him. N one within RBOSE can control anybodies behavior and most RBOSE members would not support individuals who do activities outside the group that are not open source related. To blame a group whose main purpose is open source on another individuals action is just not rational. Bottom line RBOSE is not a group on controlling peoples behaviorisms we're a group that's about developing and supporting free and open source solution. To cut it short VTV should have no business in what RBOSE does it separated TZM for a reason and the reason above are the reasons why, to try and control a group that has now split off and try to say who is apart of RBOSE and is not apart of RBOSE is silly but TZM tried to do this. It was a bad breakup, that could of been handled better.

I answered most of this above. But you painting "Grits" as some sort of innocent victim is dubious at best. I will look for the recordings of that individual harassing and attacking people on the mumble server with no one taking any action to stop him. We have deleted our forums so I cannot provide you with links to the HUNDREDS of times that Codie Vickers would change his IP address to come back to the TZM forums solely for the purpose of calling people "Fat" or any number of other juvenile names.

I am going to again ask you to provide proof or evidence of any of your allegations as far as the "higher ups" and who these "higher ups" are, or what they said, when, and why. You keep making a lot of unsubstantiated claims and just hoping that nobody is going to call you on it.

Quote
2012
The old TZM dev team was not started up by any TZM higher up's yet eventually the higherup's attempted to gain control of it. At that a lot of people within the team were not TZM members but like me were people interested in the pootle project as they had a irc channel on freenode for people to hangout on and many TZM higherup's had a problem with this as well. In the end RBOSE did it's thing and TZM barred it's members from going onto RBOSE communication mediums to the extent that Peter Joseph said on the TZM forum (which the forums are now down) to not go on any RBOSE communication mediums.

Again, you seem to be content to simply make up lies. And leave out critical information. Our problems with the IRC chat room had to do with people like Grits, and several others being allowed to harass and cyberbully members of TZM with impunity there. Just like the Mumble server.

At no point has Peter Joseph ever "ordered" anyone to not go to RBOSE mediums. It has been advised that people consider avoiding it but not for any reason other then what typically results from that. Your personal information and personal life becoming the play thing of trolls who have nothing better to do with their time.

Quote
2012
I have more stories on TZM (mostly simular events or worse) I could tell but I would be here forever typing up on my iphone. However I always thought from the start of learning about TZM/TVP that it's a utopian based group based around a RBE or for them it be a RBEM. I included in the reference section below some goodies other than material related to this topic above (but it's just a drop in the bucket). TZM is badly mismanaged do to incompetents but Peter Joseph is the person who calls the shots.

Yes, I am sure you could come up with more "stories". I look forward to it.

Ironically, in your own reference posts you debunked most of your own claims. For example, this quote from the conversation about RBOSE:

Member of TZM:
"As a person that has been working with the wiki on RBOSE.org, mostly on an open source project for farming.
And as someone that's daily on the rbose irc server...
What will my "punishment" so to speak, be?"

"There is no such issue. Do as you wish. However, given their aggressive history towards us, I am not entertaining them in any way. That's all. I have no reason to and the Movement doesn't need to identify with yet another small offshoot that obviously doesn't even understand the direction."

I urge people reading this debate to go ahead and read that entire conversation linked below for themselves. As it is abundantly clear that 2012 just lied or intentionally attempted to mislead the readers here into thinking that Peter Joseph "ordered" that people not be involved with RBOSE. The entire thing was framed as it should be, a warning that when you are dealing with them you are inevitably dealing with people who will harass and cyberbully you.

After looking at that old conversation, I found more of the story to share. This is from Gilbert, one of the coordinators of the movement.

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Gilbert
As unfortunate as it is, this seems the route to go. There are good people within the RBOSE group and i wont be the last to acknowledge that.

Having said that amongst other moderators i have been allmost a daily returning subject in the RBOSE irc, more often than not in a very negative light being slandered with homophobic comments ( being a heterosexual person this doesn't hurt as much) but its still homophobic and sickens me, having lies spread about me, calling me unnecesarry for the movement.

I do not need acknowledgement of any kind, but it is kind of hurtful spending an average of 8 hours on the movement per day ( if not more sometimes) trying very hard to get our movement to progress, aiding chapters, setting up chapters and then to be notified that some jerk off that feels bitter that the movement didnt go his way call me useless. At that point it gets annoying.

Then the wors part, infiltration in chapters. I was prepared to leave the RBOSE issue alone and forget about it, until individuals in the RBOSE group started to mess with the chapters. At first it was changing links in some chapter sites to link the IRC to the RBOSE instead of TZM server( this was a chapter site based on a wiki so anyone could edit it). Then it became worse, emailing chapters to get them to collaborate with RBOSE, infiltrating Zdays with RBOSE propaganda and then showing up to face to face meetings to cause problems and promote RBOSE.

This is not even everything that went down, but enough to say it has to stop in one way or another,

Either the RBOSE platform gets rid of the people who are sick and cannot be helped from behind a computer, or anyone in the chapters area who refuses to stop cooperation with this perverse group will be removed from any official or coordinating position, and if they are selfish enough to drag their whole chapter in, they will be reverted to non official. This policy was approved by the chapters at an international meeting, and is therefore made by our community.

If you don't decide to wake up to the ramifications of your actions, thats a pity.

Have a nice life nonetheless.

Gilbert

One of the trolls favorite things was to insinuate that Gilbert was gay. I was generally called fat. They had all sorts of juvenile crap to say about the various people who called them out on their crap.

Re-linking our IRC to their own IRC was basically computer hacking.

Showing up at our meetings to try and recruit more people for their own movement was further motivated by the fact that when they "left" over not being willing to stop people from harassing and cyberbullying members of TZM on any communications mediums they were administrating they were hoping there would be this huge mass exodus that would tear TZM apart. In the end, maybe thirty or so people joined their little club.

I seemed to have some difficulty getting registered on this site. Apparently it's my luck to have a name similar to someone who was banned, 'emosso'? Very strange indeed. I hope stating this is not detrimental to whether this post is approved or not. I don't know what to say, I must have pretty bad luck I guess. I originally was going to use the name 'emosso' on here, but it said the username was banned during registration. I'm sure my name came up with my email address so I wasn't approved as it is still very similar to that persons screen-name. I've never been registered on this site, and I wasn't aware of it until VTV posted something about it on FB. I am from Missouri, and I can supply further credentials if necessary, proving I am not the same person as whoever that banned person was. This is like the Twilight Zone, though lol.


It's a good thing I save a copy of all my posts, and have saved the entire conversation other than what was erased by VTV to possibly make himself look better. We were both posting on his "Fans of V-Radio" FaceBook group page, where he has admin control, and can erase posts if he pleases. I do not have such permissions. He erased some of my posts, which will be color coded for you to examine for yourself what impressions they would get from reading it, in absence of a few posts. I was also blocked from the group page soon after my last posts were removed from the group page.

I am a regional coordinator for The Zeitgeist Movement-Missouri Chapter, you can check it out for yourself here. I am the St. Charles coordinator listed, Eric Mossotti.

This is how the FB conversation went down, this is 99.9% verbatim. It's what I have in my records.

PART 1 of the conversation, which remains unedited other than formatting, that I'm aware of at least. I had no idea someobody made a copy of the first conversation. Then I realized I should probably create a copy of the second one just to be sure. I also keep copies of what I write, for the most part, so I was able to reconstitute the full conversation, from how it currently appears on his website. Others can back me up as having said the things which are now no longer on there. I highly suggest you read Part1 before Part 2.

---

PART 2 of the conversation

Quote
VTV
So.... just a reminder to Eric Mossotti of the only people you help when you say stupid shit about TZM because of your personal problems. [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

VTV Debates Zeitgeist Cult Status With Chapter Coordinators
zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com

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Adam Antium
*claps sarcastically* Well done Eric. You're doing humanity a huge favour.

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Christopher Gray
There's nothing fancy or complex about that website, Fancy. It's just a flat Wordpress page with a simple template and a handful of morons to put content together for other morons to read. I'm surprised they haven't given up yet.

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Fancy Katt
Fancy Katt OK thanks for telling me that. I doubt they will. The Scientology trolls that don't have valid points are still at it.

I am not taking about the proper critics of it. I mean the trolls. They like what they do and get jollies off of it. I like a lot of the real critics as they are nice people.

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Fancy Katt
Fancy Katt Myself I ignore them for otherwise you are feeding trolls.

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Myself
I may never be able to say something that will please everyone.

To discount real problems and how they are a result of issues which correlate with cult behavior (under a more broad but applicable definition), in official operations of TZM, and therefore are not 'personal-problems', is illogical.

If it were just personal problems, they wouldn't have involved TZM in any direct way. However that is not the case. We are dealing with a case actually perpetrated by an organization, and so has become interpersonal. An organization consists of people who are responsible for decision making.

You seem much more concerned about yourself, than any real problem that may exist concerning TZM. I'm not going to support you with everything you do, as I already said. I prefer to focus on fixing the issues which give rise to criticism, rather than having a troll war that can never be won.

[en.wikipedia.org]

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Adam Antium
Eric, you don't appear to have paid any attention to anything we, and Rick Ross himself have said. And you refuse to let go of this "cult" label. And you wonder why we can't take you seriously.

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Myself
Sounds like cognitive bias to me, Adam. And I don't need your infinitesimal approval, if that's what you think. I was not wondering why you can't take me seriously, on the contrary, it seems you and V are taking me very seriously.

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Adam Antium
Nope, not bias, common sense. And attention to detail. We have explicitely expained to you why TZM is not a cult and you refuse to take the data on board. No-one is holding you in requirement of any "approaval" besides asking you to be open to information if you wish to converse like an adult. When I say "take you seriously" I meant whether I can actually believe you have any earnest and receptive motivations here.

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John Priesmeyer
Peter Joseph & Jacque Fresco "there is no such thing as common sense." PARADOX!

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Adam-Antium
We have explicitely expained to you why TZM is not a cult and you refuse to take the data on board.

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John Priesmeyer
he said some actions make us seem cult-like, he didn't say were literally a cult. i don't think you get what the conversation was. and again with the "act like a adult" comment, as if were the ones to blame. you guys have done nothing but make me think that our "trollish" critics may be right. congrats for being another yes man!


to all the people who wanna blame eric for all this. this music video is all i have to say to such people.
[www.youtube.com]

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Adam-Antium
I'm not gonna disbelieve in the notion of common sense as I understand it as a faculty of using logical discourse just because Peter and Jacque say so.

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Adam-Antium
I never said "act like an adult". I have observed Eric both here and on the BTR chat feed flogging the same dead donkey as it were.

....continued below