Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 13, 2012 12:50AM
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skeptic23
I'm not sure The Zeitgeist Movement is a cult, I've never really agreed with that particular label. But I do think it is an e-sect (or Internet-Sect) that promotes an isolating and unhealthy world view. When something almost entirely exists on the Internet, I think it is fair to criticize how moderation is done. On the surface, yes, it was just a forum. But in the context of the e-sect, the forum was a temple.
The statement that the movement "mostly exists on the internet" is false. Most of the activity goes on in the local chapters, thare are really not that different then being involved in any other activist group. One of the reasons we shut down the forum was to encourage people to get off their computers and get out into the world and get involved.
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Skeptic23
The idea that dissent was accepted is, from my long experience visiting their "temple", simply not true. I specifically remember one user who was cast out and shunned for no other reason than he opposed the inclusion of 911 conspiracy theories.
This is a lie. That person was banned because the only reason they were using the forums was because they wanted to oppose 911 conspiracy theories. One of his roommates told us this to confirm what we had already suspected. We actively moderated posts about 911 in general and moved them to off topic areas of our website because it was not relevant to what TZM is about.
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Septic23
Peter Joseph Merola himself finally banned him because of his continued dissent on an issue the user thought made TZM look bad. There were also users banned and shunned due to personality conflicts with certain moderators and those close to moderators regardless of the users fully embracing the ideology and goals of TZM. This is not indicative of a group that welcomes or even tolerates dissent. It may sound silly, but if you really believed in something and were shunned by a group simply for having different ideas, even one that only really exists online, it probably isn't like being banned from some random forum you rarely visit.
It's interesting that you use charged words like "Temple" and "Shunned" as if people are never banned from using forums that exist for one stated purpose. If you show up on a Republican website posting "Vote Obama 2012" stuff you are not likely to last long. If you go to a Feminist website with an agenda to attack Feminism you are not likely to last long. And in any of these instances if you actively go out of your way to attack the other users on the forum you are not going to last long.
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Skeptic23
The forums also contained an enemies list: a list of people's Facebook accounts that were off limits to members.
This is again, a complete lie. Look at the screenshot. I made it very clear that people were free to do whatever they wanted with that information. And that my motive was that I had noticed a distinct pattern from people on that list to surf around Facebook, sometimes sending false friend requests to members of TZM so that they could take their photos and photoshop them. Or look for things on their wall to screenshot for the purpose of humiliating them. (You know, like actual cults like scientology do?). The language "completely off limits to members" is something you just completely invented on the spot. If you want proof of that, just take a look at Mario's blog, or Kush's blog. NOBODY on that blog gave permission to use pictures from their facebook groups but that is precisely where they got them. Some of those pictures are of friends and family members who have nothing to do with TZM they they are included in the harassement. The final straw for me was when they took a video of me playing with my son and used it to imply my son was retarded. Do people have a right to protect their Facebook profiles? Most people are not even aware of how easy it is to get personal information out of your facebook profiles.
So in the course of this post you have spun, and outright lied.
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Skeptic23
I don't think TZM is necessarily a terrible thing, simply because it's fairly incompetent atgetting any real exposure or acceptance by anyone outside of TZM. But I also think it's an unhealthy organization because it saps the time, energy and money from well intentioned people and sucks them into a bizarre Internet utopian sect.
Unhealthy because of sapping time and energy and money away? What about the countless hours and energy spent by people who ended up on that "list" for seeming to have nothing better to do with their time but stalk members of TZM on the internet? To devote entire blogs to the topic? I have asked many of the "critics" who's critiques usually involve information that they are twisting from extensive research into the personal lives of members of the movement what they are neglecting to spend so much time stalking people on the internet who would never say a word to them if they left them alone.
There is a "sect" of people devoted to trolling TZM on the internet. Every single argument you have tried to make for TZM being a cult or dangerous or unhealthy could just as easily be made for your group. The difference is suggesting that we may have banned people from our own forums means we are dangerous or unhealthy is nothing compared to your "group" spending hours of your time stalking us on the internet.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 13, 2012 01:14AM
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corboy
Skeptic23Quote
But I do think it is an e-sect (or Internet-Sect) that promotes an isolating and unhealthy world view. When something almost entirely exists on the Internet, I think it is fair to criticize how moderation is done.
On the surface, yes, it was just a forum. But in the context of the e-sect, the forum was a temple. ...
It may sound silly, but if you really believed in something and were shunned by a group simply for having different ideas, even one that only really exists online, it probably isn't like being banned from some random forum you rarely visit.Quote
Corboy
This helps a lot.
It would help if it was in any fashion tangible or verifiable evidence. I have already proved that the author of this point makes false statements. I have already adressed everything else in his point. But I felt it was important to point out the confirmation bias going on here.Quote
Corboy
Perhaps because the ZM forum was removed, the moderators who formerly ruled that roost no longer have an outlet for their puglistic energies unless they go to other discussion venues and try to behave as though they own and control the discussions on places not even owned by ZM.
Since we are putting on the "amateur psychologist" or "telepath" hat here, let me suggest an alternative possibility. And that would be that some of those former moderators saw that some of the same people whom they banned from the TZM forums for misconduct who have since been conducting a defamation campaign. And that THEY brought it here.
Lets use this thread as an example. It was started BEFORE the TZM forums were taken down. The user "David Wish" who we later confirmed to be someone whom we had banned in the past came here to insinuate that unless we had all of our moderators give the full idenities and their financial information that we were a a dangerous cult, and that the "blood would be on our hands". Now, all someone has to do to see what these people do with our "full idenities" has to do is go to one of the blogs that you have linked over and over again here. They continued to push again and again that them being banned from our forums was "abuse". Rick Ross finally told them to cut it out. That person posted the link to your website, which is how some "former moderators of the TZM forum" found this place.
Since then, James Kush has been here peddling his Enquirer blog. And other people who were banned for misconduct showed up to further this. Links have been posted here to logs where people are called fat, homosexual, and other juvenile insults. (Clearly quality content that was only "concerned dissent" that the evil TZM was trying to squelch.)
Perhaps some of those former moderators would rather that these individuals who spend hours of their time engaging in cyberbullying and harassment should not be allowed to suceed in manipulating the people who use this forum to further their "cult" nonsense. And that maybe they can prevent further energy and time being wasted on the part of the actual cult watch community who could be trying to help people who have been victimized by REAL cults
I tried to re-post some old posts here to remind the people participating in this conversation that we went through all of this earlier. And that the same people offered the same arguments before. And that it became clear that this was motivated by internet trolling, and not any real concern for anyone being involved in a cult.Quote
Corboy
It may be that ZM's action has shifted away from its website to local chapters and Facebook.
It has. One of the main reasons that TZM took down it's forums was to get people to get out and do activism locally. The forums basically created an "illusion of participation" and in many cases a big distraction.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
skeptic23
()
Date: July 13, 2012 01:25AM
I stand by the statements made in my posts. I expected you to disagree with them, and that's fine. But I will not debate with you.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
jimjesus
()
Date: July 13, 2012 01:59AM
Quote
corboy
Skeptic23Quote
But I do think it is an e-sect (or Internet-Sect) that promotes an isolating and unhealthy world view. When something almost entirely exists on the Internet, I think it is fair to criticize how moderation is done.
On the surface, yes, it was just a forum. But in the context of the e-sect, the forum was a temple. ...
It may sound silly, but if you really believed in something and were shunned by a group simply for having different ideas, even one that only really exists online, it probably isn't like being banned from some random forum you rarely visit.
This helps a lot.
Perhaps because the ZM forum was removed, the moderators who formerly ruled that roost no longer have an outlet for their puglistic energies unless they go to other discussion venues and try to behave as though they own and control the discussions on places not even owned by ZM.
It may be that ZM's action has shifted away from its website to local chapters and Facebook.
I've been stating for a long time that TZM is not a cult, and have been arguing with my fellow skeptics about it. The reason being is that most of it was internet activity and the "abuse" was only limited to internet message boards. However now those are gone, the movement has imploded, numbers have dropped off significantly, the views and members have become more radicalized, and actions are translating into the real world; I'm becoming more concerned.
Am I ready to call it a cult yet? No, but I think it's something that needs to be watched closely.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 13, 2012 02:17AM
Quote
jimjesus
VTV,
The only point I am trying to make here in regard to the forum is that TZM's official message board was not open to debate or outside views which you implied. I only withed to correct this error. TZM's message board were strictly moderated and did not allow for any opposing views in all the time I was familiar with it.
I'm not here to debate you VTV. I've stated what I have personally experienced. That is all.
JimJesus, (Machwon) Do you recall making this statement on the Skeptic forums?
"I will admit this: I have seen Mario use very sensational and sometimes misleading titles for his videos and blogs. I have seen Kush publish information that turned out inaccurate when new evidence has surfaced. I can't speak for the occult aspects of it as I am not well versed in occultism. (note: occult isn't a cult)"
Not asking to debate you, just asking you to share your expiriences. That is all.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 13, 2012 02:18AM
Quote
skeptic23
I stand by the statements made in my posts. I expected you to disagree with them, and that's fine. But I will not debate with you.
Does that include the statements I just proved you lied about?
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
skeptic23
()
Date: July 13, 2012 02:37AM
To lie I would have to be intentionally be saying things I did not think were true. Everything I have posted in this thread, to the best of my knowledge and according to my perspective, is completely true.
It would be nice if you could disagree with people without personal attacks and calling them liars.
This is my last reply to you.
It would be nice if you could disagree with people without personal attacks and calling them liars.
This is my last reply to you.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
jimjesus
()
Date: July 13, 2012 02:45AM
Quote
VTV
JimJesus, (Machwon) Do you recall making this statement on the Skeptic forums?
"I will admit this: I have seen Mario use very sensational and sometimes misleading titles for his videos and blogs. I have seen Kush publish information that turned out inaccurate when new evidence has surfaced. I can't speak for the occult aspects of it as I am not well versed in occultism. (note: occult isn't a cult)"
Not asking to debate you, just asking you to share your expiriences. That is all.
I don't see how this has any relevance to what I'm saying. Please do not try to redirect the conversation.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 13, 2012 02:46AM
Quote
skeptic23
The forums also contained an enemies list: a list of people's Facebook accounts that were off limits to members.
There is absolutely NO language in this post that suggests that these accounts were "off limits" or that the people on that list were "shunned".
I make it very clear what that list was for. If I have to go hunt up screenshots of various things said and done with the personal information of members of TZM on facebook, and how in many cases people on that list actively "friended" people on Facebook to gain access to that personal information with malicious intent I will.
[thezeitgeistmovements.files.wordpress.com]
What is the language there?
I SPECIFICALLY state in bold that we did not add people to that list simply for disagreeing or critisizing the movement. And that constructive dialog is good. In order to get added to that list you had to be someone who was actively partiicpating in groups like the "X-Zeitgeist Support" facebook group where they would take our photos and personal information on a daily basis and use them to amuse themselves. Or be running a blog like Kush or Mario's.
Many people are not aware of how Facebook settings work. I have had to seal my personal facebook up. And they still go there frequently to take whatever photo I have up as my personal photo to use in their blogs or other cyber stalking. As it is as easy as right clicking.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 13, 2012 05:15AM
So, in case there was any doubt about this:
This is the list:
It was made in response to things like this screenshot, taken from a Zeitgeist Facebook group that was basically there for the purpose of attacking TZM members. They took private photos from my personal facebook account to ridicule and mock me and the friend who is in this picture with me.
There were many more of these pictures on the group of Doug Mallette, and other TZM members. Usually these pictures would be photoshopped. They would also take links or screenshots of Facebook conversations that people were having about TZM to try and twist them in a negative light.
Now, when people from that same group had some wierdo stalking them, they had no problem suggesting to all of their membership that they should block and unfriend a person, they even go so far as to suggest that they should unfriend anyone who has that person in their friends lists!
If you go to the blogs "TheZeitgeistMovementExposed" and "TheZeitgeistMovementExamined" (One of which is run by James Kush, who posts here frequently) there are dozens of examples of pictures that were not published as part of any TZM publications that were taken from people's private facebook accounts.
The entire "block list" or "black list" spin was an attempt to get me to take down the list so they could go back to trolling.
This is the list:
It was made in response to things like this screenshot, taken from a Zeitgeist Facebook group that was basically there for the purpose of attacking TZM members. They took private photos from my personal facebook account to ridicule and mock me and the friend who is in this picture with me.
There were many more of these pictures on the group of Doug Mallette, and other TZM members. Usually these pictures would be photoshopped. They would also take links or screenshots of Facebook conversations that people were having about TZM to try and twist them in a negative light.
Now, when people from that same group had some wierdo stalking them, they had no problem suggesting to all of their membership that they should block and unfriend a person, they even go so far as to suggest that they should unfriend anyone who has that person in their friends lists!
If you go to the blogs "TheZeitgeistMovementExposed" and "TheZeitgeistMovementExamined" (One of which is run by James Kush, who posts here frequently) there are dozens of examples of pictures that were not published as part of any TZM publications that were taken from people's private facebook accounts.
The entire "block list" or "black list" spin was an attempt to get me to take down the list so they could go back to trolling.
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