...continued from above

Quote
VTV
I am not butt hurt about anything. You can take that shitty attitude somewhere else. You guys brought a dumb argument to this facebook group, have not managed to accomplish anything towards your goal. I don't have to "blame Jen Wilding" as she did not cause more drama over this. Nor did she see fit to bring it here.

Quote
VTV
I don't care if you support me or not. I am pointing out to you that all your personal grudges have managed to accomplish so far is add fuel to the people who want to see our ideas defamed and artificially discredited. If your personal ego is more important to you then realizing an RBE feel free to take yourself and your problems elsewhere. You are now lashing out at people who had nothing to do with your problem and further causing problems. You were all about supporting me when you thought you might be able to convince me to use V-RADIO to bring attention to your issue.

The reason I am angry about your bullshit is that I have been studying REAL cults lately. And it is an outright insult to the intellect not to mention an incredibly spoiled brat reaction to abuse the term "cult" just because you were removed from a coordinator position. I watched a doc about the Jim Jones cult, where a man told the story about how they went and poisoned all the babies during their "mass suicide" and how he came across his dying wife and baby, she had been convinced to follow her baby to death. So he got to sit there and watch them choke to death in his arms crying over and over how he loved them.

REAL cults are serious business, and you are seriously engaging in charged propaganda when you try to suggest that Jen Wilding needs to be punished for removing you from a coordinator position and if not then we are a "cult". It is absolutely retarded.

Even if every single allegation you put forward was true, there is no evidence of cult behavior. And in your stupid personal crusade you threaten to further cause further problems for getting people to look seriously at sustainable solutions for earth. What is more important? If you don't like it, leave TZM and do something else. I don't make my involvement in TZM in any way a requirement for my activism.

Quote
Adam-Antium
Well said Neil.

Quote
Myself
For the record, I think I disagree with everything you just said, but I'm not going to play much into it. I would suggest you post in a manner that would be suitable for the culteducation forums, b/c there's a lot of personal attacks in your comments.

Quote
VTV
"Even if every single allegation you put forward was true, there is no evidence of cult behavior"

Quote
Myself
I already showed that there being no evidence of cult behavior, is not the case. Not sure how you are now confident enough to say that I'm being stupid, retarded, etc.

Quote
VTV
"REAL cults are serious business, and you are seriously engaging in charged propaganda when you try to suggest that Jen Wilding needs to be punished for removing you from a coordinator position and if not then we are a "cult". It is absolutely retarded. "

Quote
Myself
I never wanted her to be punished, we all make mistakes and can learn from them. I wanted Jen to recognize her mistake and resolve the issue which was forced upon me. I also want to prevent further issues, as I'm not the only one this sort of thing has happened to, nor am I likely the last. My experience can be used as a great opportunity to help TZM rather than harm it. That is how I feel.

It seems to me that you have entered into 'battle mode' and anything that I say will not really be taken with consideration. Prove me wrong. Are you really just interested in who thinks TZM is a cult or not?

Let's say I am convinced that calling TZM a cult is a moral crime. If I was, what would be accomplished? Nothing much whatsoever that I can tell. There would still be issues effecting TZM's organization that lead to it being weakened.

And yes your activism seems very much dependent on TZM, as that is what your entire point was about, whether TZM is a cult or not. And you use the TZM website and support base for promotion and support of your show. You have also been a top tier mod on the official TS-TZM server. If you have no direct connections with it, then why have you been so directly involved? You defeated your own point once again.

I'm afraid I have probably disappointed you again.

Quote
VTV
The reason I am angry about your bullshit is that I have been studying REAL cults lately"

Quote
Myself
You are angry? Maybe you should cool down before replying? Otherwise you are just going to hurt yourself and others.

Quote
orylee
...continued from above

Quote
VTV
I am not butt hurt about anything. You can take that shitty attitude somewhere else. You guys brought a dumb argument to this facebook group, have not managed to accomplish anything towards your goal. I don't have to "blame Jen Wilding" as she did not cause more drama over this. Nor did she see fit to bring it here.

Quote
VTV
I don't care if you support me or not. I am pointing out to you that all your personal grudges have managed to accomplish so far is add fuel to the people who want to see our ideas defamed and artificially discredited. If your personal ego is more important to you then realizing an RBE feel free to take yourself and your problems elsewhere. You are now lashing out at people who had nothing to do with your problem and further causing problems. You were all about supporting me when you thought you might be able to convince me to use V-RADIO to bring attention to your issue.

The reason I am angry about your bullshit is that I have been studying REAL cults lately. And it is an outright insult to the intellect not to mention an incredibly spoiled brat reaction to abuse the term "cult" just because you were removed from a coordinator position. I watched a doc about the Jim Jones cult, where a man told the story about how they went and poisoned all the babies during their "mass suicide" and how he came across his dying wife and baby, she had been convinced to follow her baby to death. So he got to sit there and watch them choke to death in his arms crying over and over how he loved them.

REAL cults are serious business, and you are seriously engaging in charged propaganda when you try to suggest that Jen Wilding needs to be punished for removing you from a coordinator position and if not then we are a "cult". It is absolutely retarded.

Even if every single allegation you put forward was true, there is no evidence of cult behavior. And in your stupid personal crusade you threaten to further cause further problems for getting people to look seriously at sustainable solutions for earth. What is more important? If you don't like it, leave TZM and do something else. I don't make my involvement in TZM in any way a requirement for my activism.

Quote
Adam-Antium
Well said Neil.

Quote
Myself
For the record, I think I disagree with everything you just said, but I'm not going to play much into it. I would suggest you post in a manner that would be suitable for the culteducation forums, b/c there's a lot of personal attacks in your comments.

Quote
VTV
"Even if every single allegation you put forward was true, there is no evidence of cult behavior"

Quote
Myself
I already showed that there being no evidence of cult behavior, is not the case. Not sure how you are now confident enough to say that I'm being stupid, retarded, etc.

Quote
VTV
"REAL cults are serious business, and you are seriously engaging in charged propaganda when you try to suggest that Jen Wilding needs to be punished for removing you from a coordinator position and if not then we are a "cult". It is absolutely retarded. "

Quote
Myself
I never wanted her to be punished, we all make mistakes and can learn from them. I wanted Jen to recognize her mistake and resolve the issue which was forced upon me. I also want to prevent further issues, as I'm not the only one this sort of thing has happened to, nor am I likely the last. My experience can be used as a great opportunity to help TZM rather than harm it. That is how I feel.

It seems to me that you have entered into 'battle mode' and anything that I say will not really be taken with consideration. Prove me wrong. Are you really just interested in who thinks TZM is a cult or not?

Let's say I am convinced that calling TZM a cult is a moral crime. If I was, what would be accomplished? Nothing much whatsoever that I can tell. There would still be issues effecting TZM's organization that lead to it being weakened.

And yes your activism seems very much dependent on TZM, as that is what your entire point was about, whether TZM is a cult or not. And you use the TZM website and support base for promotion and support of your show. You have also been a top tier mod on the official TS-TZM server. If you have no direct connections with it, then why have you been so directly involved? You defeated your own point once again.

I'm afraid I have probably disappointed you again.

Quote
VTV
The reason I am angry about your bullshit is that I have been studying REAL cults lately"

Quote
Myself
You are angry? Maybe you should cool down before replying? Otherwise you are just going to hurt yourself and others.

And....?

I deleted some stuff from my facebook group because I was sick of you insinuating TZM is a cult because you were removed from a coordinator position.

Thanks for re-posting most of the argument people gave to you when this came up then. Not sure what you hoped to accomplish by re-posting it here?

This blog I wrote about Trolls in general refers to Codie Vickers, a.k.a: Grits, Hominy Grits, Plautus Satire. Links to two different recorded conversations we had with him before he was completely banned are provided in the article.

Quote
My Blog
A look inside the mind of a troll...

So I have been monitoring when of our more notorious trolls for the purpose of getting inside the strategies they employ. I am sure many of you are familiar with him. But who he is is not as important as what he is doing. And why.

I know many of you have read my post “When will we have no rules?” about the issue of when the ZM will be without rules and moderators who enforce them. I pointed out in this blog post that the intention of many of the people who want to remove these fail-safes want them removed so that they can be the new authority. Some of the trolls claimed that even some of the moderation team thought my show on this subject was BS. Then recently on another forum one of our star trolls revealed why it is he behaves the way he does.

The premise that must be understood is that these people engage in hostile behavior to assert control over other users in a chat room, forum or voice chat. Some of them are better at this then others. But it is still very real. I pointed out how they will become the real despotic authoritarians but they do it without moderator powers or rules. (Which is why they claim we don't need them.) They do it by directly insulting and therefore mentally assaulting users who do not tow the line and respect their authority.

So the quote I am about to bring up exposes this in great detail. Before I quote it though I will give you a little background on the conversation that lead to this troll exposing himself. Recently on an anti-ZM forum the users there began to go after him because of his belief in 911 conspiracy theories. Because this forum is not moderated the inevitable free-for-all of insult slinging went back and forth. They started to attack him for what is rather obvious mental delusions and derangement. After a user who obviously knows who he is exposed information about him and linked a couple of recordings of his previous maniac rants on various ZM voice chat mediums he defended his behavior of attacking a user by stating he was trying to re-program the brain of his victim. The following quotes are about this:

“I definitely was acting like a drill sergeant, I was reprogramming his mind, and it was successful. Now he feels a twinge of anxiety any time he contemplates threatening people, and it curbs his behaviour somewhat.”

“I know how to change minds, the technique is called repeated, rhythmic insult, and it's virtually infallible. The marines use it to turn librarians into paid killers. “

Here is a link to the recording in question. Some of the parts of this recording are not really relevant, but if you get through it you will eventually get to the lunacy that ensued when this individual took it upon himself to try and modify the behavior of another person.

[dl.dropbox.com]

Here you have someone who is actively engaging in what amounts to psychological warfare. Ironically after stating that we are failing because we are using all the same failed methods of control that the “state” does. So his solution? Turn to the far more insidious methods of the “state” that are used to brainwash our soldiers. An interesting grasp on morality to be sure.

I understand the big scare people have of moderators and authority figures getting out of control. The funny thing is we are actually creating these problems within the moderation team when we constantly hound them and allow them to be hounded. There may have been one or two examples of abuse of authority by members of the moderation team. But there is also a large number of trolls who cry “WOLF!” whenever a moderator acts against them at all. And this brings to bear our inherent fear of the abuse of authority.

Then we find ourselves turning on the mods who are here to protect us. And more importantly protect the quality of conversation. And then the call of abuse of authority is itself abused. People start calling abuse of authority even when they are in the wrong. The hysteria created leads to a situation where a tiny minority continues to project itself as a majority. This minority being people who actually have problems with the moderation team. They project over and over again that “a lot of people” or “many people” or “more and more people” have a problem with the moderators.

Just a little while ago on my Facebook someone went so far as to say “This behavior is pushing out the majority of the movement! All that is left on the forums now are moderators and people in positions of authority within the movement!” which is obviously absurd. But like Hitler said

“Repeat a lie often enough and it will become truth.”

I tried to explain in detail in my previous post about authority what exactly was taking place. About how these trolls ask us to eliminate all authority and that if we do this we will all be free to talk and express ourselves.
The part they leave out is that they actually want to do this so that they will be free to control the minds of the people in the chat rooms through bullying, intimidation and repeated rhythmic insults so that they can be ones who effectively “ban” or “mute” people through their destructive language.

We can have free speech. But free speech was meant to be the free exchange of constructive criticisms and exchanges of ideas.

You cannot have either in a situation where the only people actually free to do this are the ones who are more creative and diligent in their insults and bully tactics then other users.

I realized that the best person to explain it was the worst troll in the history of Wikipedia. Codie Eugene Vickers. A.K.A Hominy Grits, A.K.A. Plautus Satire, A.K.A. Kyle Troy. And this is how he explained it:

“I know how to change minds, the technique is called repeated, rhythmic insult, and it's virtually infallible. The marines use it to turn librarians into paid killers.”

Let me ask you to consider this. Is it free speech if someone has the ability to destroy conversation anytime they want by employing these tactics?

Allowing the absolute freedom of speech in situations like this is like saying that the right to own a handgun also gives you the right to shoot people with it if you feel like it. In allowing people to shoot each other with impunity in the name of freedom we just hand the reins of tyranny over to whomever is willing to do the shooting.

The whole time that this person is whining that we are supposedly using all the despotic tactics of the system that we oppose, he is using something far more insidious then laws or people to enforce them. He is willfully and intentionally engaging in psychological warfare.

The biggest threat to freedom of speech is also people abusing it. They blame the system but the reason even the best intentioned systems eventually have to put restrictions on things is not because of peaceful people speaking their minds. It's because of people acting like this. And some of them even revel in that.

“I've induced them to put harsh restrictions and an even harsher face on this movement.”

So despite all of his self-glorified delusions of being some sort of freedom fighter it is people like him that are the text book examples of the downside of freedom of speech. Along with the racists, bigots, etc.

It's important that if you want your forum to be free of pollution of this kind that you speak out against it. And if you really want to see less out of the moderators there needs to be a paradigm shift in how people address this sort of thing. The notion that it's going to happen by just throwing a lever and eliminating all authority when we are still living in the value system that makes that infeasible is absurd. The fact that people even value or think this sort of behavior is productive in any way proves that we are not ready for that. And people acting like it, enabling it or justifying it keep us further and further away from the days when we actually will have no mods or rules.


Author's note: Here is another episode of Codie Vickers the troll.

[dl.dropbox.com]

At this point, one thing can be said about TZM and discussions concerning TZM.

There's no shortage of drama.

Readers who have looked at the sample of material here can decide for themselves whether TZM and its drama represent a good investment of time and emotional/physical energy.

Quote
corboy
At this point, one thing can be said about TZM and discussions concerning TZM.

There's no shortage of drama.

Readers who have looked at the sample of material here can decide for themselves whether TZM and its drama represent a good investment of time and emotional/physical energy.

Honestly, what you are talking about is just the way things are on the internet. There is just as much "drama" in forums talking about World of Warcraft, TV shows, whatever.

There is a psychological effect that causes people to be crass on the internet from the safety of their keyboards to let off steam in ways they never would in person. That is the essence of cyber-bullying.

Some interesting links on the benign fringe group Zeitgeist Movement:

One of the Zeitgeist followers is drawing Barack Obama in sniper crosshairs all over facebook: http://zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/zeitgeist-members-fantasy-of-assassinating-president-obama/

Forest boy was a zeitgeist member: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/9337209/Forest-boy-inspired-by-Zeitgeist-movement.html

VTV says his activism for TZM is used in court against him in a child custody dispute: http://zeitgeistmovements.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/screen-shot-2012-01-17-at-11-33-56-am.png?w=1000

ZM spokesman Douglas Mallette suspended from european tour for murder hate comments http://varldsklassprojektteamet.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/douglas-malettes-forelasningar-stalls-in/

Zeitgeist Member poses as bin laden and makes bomb threats:http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/osama_bin_laden_letters_suspect_was_deemed_too_extreme_for_zeitgeist_movement.php

Occupy Movement assembly says ZM viewed as a cult: http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2011/10/14/occupy-tucson-starts-saturday-9-am-armory-park

Here is a long discussion of various chapter coordinator within ZM discussing what a great idea it is to murder 1000 innocent people: http://zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/the-zeitgeist-movement-is-planning-to-kill-people/

Just for archiving and info purposes. Im not making a case. Just throwing some facts out there.

Good day.

An interesting meeting point for intense people, for sure.

[www.google.com]

--Adventures in Conspiracy-Land: the “Zeitgeist Movement.” UPDATED!muertos.blog.com/.../adventures-in-conspiracy-land-the-zeitgeist-mo...Cached
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If the zeitgeist movement is to be classified as a religion, then it must fall ... easily as shoehorning Black Metal into the classification of an NRM.
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Nov 23, 2011 – The Zeitgeist Movement Official Blog Become the change you want to see .... wa anatoxin rakish Black metal loft beds nuttalliosis Enamelware ...


[muertos.blog.com]

Adventures in Conspiracy-Land: the “Zeitgeist Movement.” UPDATED!

--
This blog, originally published March 13, 2010, has been updated once (as of March 27, 2010), again (on May 19, 2010) and a third time (February 10, 2011). Scroll to the end for the updates.

For the last couple of months, my adventures in conspiracy-land have taken me to the frontier of an organization called “the Zeitgeist Movement,” and led to the inevitable crossing-swords with those who support and promote it. Let me tell you, you’re signing up for a huge can of worms the moment you start on Zeitgeist, because this movie has literally legions of rabid supporters, and they all think they’re saving the world.


What is the Zeitgeist Movement? We’ll get to that in a moment; first you have to understand what is Zeitgeist. Unless you’ve been living in a cave in Baluchistan with no access to the Internet since 2007, you’ve probably heard of Zeitgeist. It’s an Internet film created and promoted by an ambitious young New Yorker named Peter Merola, who (for reasons that will be discussed later) calls himself “Peter Joseph.” (Note: the evidence suggests that Merola is his name, and although he hasn’t introduced himself as such, I’m not aware that he has denied it. If anyone can definitively state that it’s not, please correct me; until then that’s what I will call him). Merola’s film, which is very slick and well-produced in Loose Change style, is very manipulative and has three parts which promote three main points:


1. Jesus never really existed, and Christianity is a lie artificially constructed from pieces of other ancient religions (most notably, sun worship).

2. The 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy “false flag” operation conceived and conducted by the Bush administration (or somebody) to justify war and curtailment of civil liberties.

3. A cabal of evil greedy “international bankers” controls the economy of the world, thus enslaving mankind in an artificial and exploitative system.


I’d provide you the link to watch Zeitgeist yourself, but trying to increase the visibility of this film is frankly unethical and certainly a crime against logic and common sense. It’s so ubiquitous, though, that if you really want to watch it you can find it in less than a minute.


Despite the numerous and comprehensive debunkings of its theses and repeated demonstrations of its virtually complete lack of factual support, Zeitgeist: The Movie has been very popular. Its promoter, Peter Merola, claims on his website it’s been viewed 100 million times. You can’t swing a cat by its hind legs without finding someone who’s seen—and most likely believed—the conspiracy folderol that’s happily crammed down the audience’s throat in Merola’s little magnum opus.


According to a somewhat-high official in the Zeitgeist Movement, a certain Brenton Eccles (at least that’s his handle on the Zeitgeist Movement forum), after he made the film Merola received numerous emails from viewers saying, “What do we do about these problems?” and his answer was invariably, “I don’t know.” Then someone mentioned to him the Venus Project.


The Venus Project is an old idea, having been cooked up about 1975 by a sometime designer (I could not verify that he’s actually an architect, as many claim he is) called Jacque Fresco. Basically it’s your standard issue ‘60s/’70s utopian idea: wouldn’t it be great if all the Earth’s resources were freely distributed to people according to their need. Does this sound like warmed-over Marxism? Well, whether it is or not is hotly debated—Fresco himself tries to distance himself from Communist ideology in Zeitgeist’s disingenuous FAQ—but add to this the idea of computers controlling resource allocation, and you’ve got the Venus Project.


What does this have to do with conspiracist and 9/11 Truther Peter Merola? Well, exactly nothing, until Merola latched onto it as the answer to the world’s problems. He made a second movie called Zeitgeist: Addendum which shills again the conspiracy theories from the first film, albeit at softer volume, but also adds an extended section delving into Mr. Fresco’s theories. With this somewhat awkward marriage, Scientology had found its Tom Cruise. Merola and his friends started “the Zeitgeist Movement,” which purports to be “the activist arm of the Venus Project,” galvanizing the masses (mostly on the Internet) to make the resource-based economy brainchild of Jacque Fresco a reality.


Sounds great, right? Well, there’s a bit of a problem. A couple of problems, actually. See, there’s not very much fact in Zeitgeist: The Movie. But that didn’t stop it from becoming extremely high-profile, due to the fact that upon its appearance it was denounced by Christians as a lie and sneered at by rational-thinking people who, quite rightly, look askance at 9/11 Trutherism. The Trutherism of Merola and Zeitgeist isn’t even very good by Truthers’ very elastic standards, having repeated in 2007 many of the silly conspiracy claims that were roundly debunked in 2005. Zeitgeist’s 9/11 Truth ideology is several steps behind Loose Change’s.


So, let’s take Merola at his word that he’s really about promoting the Venus Project, and all that ooky conspiracy stuff he was spouting in 2007 isn’t really the movement. Merola himself makes this point on his own forum. His words, exactly, responding to one of his own followers who was surprised to learn that Jacque Fresco evidently does not believe in 9/11 conspiracy:


“It [9/11 conspiracy] doesn’t matter. Fresco and I have never talked about it. The view isn’t promoted in the movement either. The films are not the movement. I am not the movement…It is a big part of that FILM not THE MOVEMENT. The Movement is not the films. One day I might make a movie about Fishing… that doesnt mean the movement has anything to do with it, despite the name ‘zeitgeist’.”


Well yeah, it’s all about that name, Zeitgeist, isn’t it? The facts, according to Merola himself on the Zeitgeist website, are that 100,000,000 people have viewed Zeitgeist: The Movie. Yet the same website also claims that only 10,000,000 people have viewed Zeitgeist: Addendum, which also pushes the conspiracy claims but gives them considerably less prominence. Assuming for the sake of argument that Zeitgeist I can be considered a conspiracy film and Zeitgeist II cannot, by Merola’s own figures his viewership dropped by 90% when he stopped talking about conspiracy theories as the main focus. (Incidentally, Zeitgeist: Addendum never repudiates the conspiracy theories; in fact it promotes them. There’s a third Zeitgeist movie in the works. From the selfsame quote by Merola that I quoted above, he says: “Yes, 911 will be in the Directors cut – expanded,” an unambiguous indication that he intends to continue hammering conspiracy theories in his films).


One of the Zeitgeist Movement’s own members, on their own forum, had this to say to one of their members who questioned how good an idea it was to get so publicly in bed with 9/11 Truthers:


“So it [9/11 conspiracy theories] pulls in certain people just like it repells certain others, up until know I’d say the conspiracy has given us almost 400.000 in a year and a half. That’s not bad, so for the time being, it’s not a problem.”


Not a problem. Yeah, right. Merola has purportedly stated that he’s “moved beyond” 9/11 conspiracy theories, and he’s now all about the Venus Project; but one of Zeitgeist Movement’s own members suggested, on the forum, the idea that the movement change its name to distance itself from the unsavory connotations of being associated with a movie that pushes as its main points that Jesus never existed and 9/11 was an inside job. Here was Merola’s response:


“As far as the 911 and religious “conspiracy theories” you denote- they are, despite the controversy, still highly relevant. However, we move forward. You will notice little time is spent on these issues. There are larger order issues and even if the Zeitgeist name was changed, the associations will be found by anyone who takes the time to track history. 911 is not taboo- nothing is taboo. If everyone simply didn’t talk about ideas because they were afraid of what other’s thought, society would be paralyzed…Changing the name of the Movement is the least of my concerns at this time.”


English translation: the Zeitgeist movement is high publicity and a good recruiting tool, so they’re better off keeping it rather than starting from scratch with a non-Truther-associated name.


It should be obvious to anyone reading this far what’s going on here. Merola, who began his public life as a 9/11 Truther, had never heard of the Venus Project or Jacque Fresco before he started making movies. When he did hear about them, he latched on to them, and now the tail wags the dog. The Venus Project, which has been around for 35 years, has been virtually unknown until Merola came along with his Zeitgeist conspiracy movie. Now it has more visibility than it ever has in its existence, solely because of Merola’s conspiracy film. Merola now has a delicate dance to do. Because the Venus Project is not ostensibly a conspiracy movement, he has to try to appeal to non-conspiracists who might agree with the goals the Venus Project espouses, while also placating the vast legions who’ve flocked to his banner precisely because they thought the Venus Project was a conspiracy movement.


What do Zeitgeisters themselves say about this apparent dichotomy? Here’s what Brenton Eccles had to say on the Conspiracyscience forum: [conspiracies.skepticproject.com]


“[E]very member is responsible for producing content. This is just Peter’s content, and that’s how in the long term (especially with others making films about The Venus Project) it will be seen…as I’ve also highlighted, regardless of whether the whole of ZI is wrong – the underlying philosophical (human value) implications still hold strong. Very strong. And that’s what’ll pull people in after watching that film.”

Uhh, yeah. All of those conspiracy loons out there who lap up Zeitgeist with a spoon are going to say to themselves, “Yes, this film totally validates my paranoid world view, but I realize that it’s just the personal opinion of that wacky Merola guy and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Zeitgeist Movement, which has the same name as this film, and who the producer/director of this film is the acknowledged leader of, and what I should really be getting out of this is the philosophical implications.”


Actually they won’t say “that wacky Merola guy” because Merola goes to considerable lengths to conceal his name. He calls himself “Peter Joseph,” his first and middle names. Why does he conceal his last name? Hmm, maybe something to do with the fact that being one of the major public figures closely associated with 9/11 Trutherism and anti-religious conspiracy theories might have a depressing effect on one’s future job prospects. Everybody who can surf the Internet can find “Peter Joseph” easily, but who the hell has ever heard of P.J. Merola? In fact I didn’t even know that was “Peter Joseph’s” real name until his true identity was exposed on this blog written by a former Zeitgeister who is now sharply critical of the movement that he considers a cult. When this blog came out the Zeitgeisters apparently did some quick damage control, hastily producing another Internet film—an extended interview with Merola—in which he deals with the name change business dismissively for about 10 seconds or so. Granted, I have published novels—fiction novels—under a pseudonym, Michael De Los Muertos, but I have never maintained publicly that that’s my name; the whole thing was a satire on the black metal practice of creating scary-sounding pseudonyms. (Most of my books are published under my own name, Sean Munger). I have also never claimed to be the leader of a self-proclaimed Very Important Social Movement that seeks to revolutionize humanity. So why the desire for anonymity?


What is Merola’s position in the Zeitgeist Movement, anyway? Is he their leader? Their high priest? Their guru? Despite his claims that “I am not the movement,” Mr. Eccles certainly seems to think he is, remarking (again on the Conspiracyscience forum):


“[H]e’s really serving as more of a director than a leader at this stage.”


Leader, director, chairman…just a matter of semantics, no?


When approached about the factual errors and flat-out lies in Zeitgeist, Merola brushes them off. He has never once to anyone’s knowledge acknowledged or corrected a factual error. Mr. Eccles, to his credit, does not try to defend the lunacy of the conspiracy theories in Zeitgeist. That doesn’t mean he’s done, though. Eccles, who I suspect (but do not know for sure) is speaking with some measure of official voice with input from others high-up in the Zeitgeist Movement, suggests that ooky conspiracy stuff be dealt with in the following manner:


“I certainly advocate showing it [Zeitgeist I] to conspiracy theorists, because, if you show them ZI and then follow with ZII you have an opportunity to reorient then away from those views as far as possible. So despite the huge problem of the first film, it can be (and has been by me) used in that way to move people away from caring about that nonsense.”


That nonsense. Yeah, all that stuff that the movement’s leader, Peter Merola, built his entire persona on. To my view this is an admission that the Zeitgeist Movement uses baseless conspiracy theories as bait to reel in the gullible. What I suspect happens less often than Eccles suggests, however, is the attempt to “move people away” from the beliefs that brought them into the movement in the first place. If reorienting conspiracy theorists is such a problem, why not stop baiting them in the first place, denounce the conspiracy theory in Zeitgeist: The Movie and Zeitgeist: Addendum and make it perfectly clear that the Venus Project is not a conspiracy movement? Well, you can see Merola’s response to someone who suggested this, quoted above. He pretends it’s not important enough to matter, as if he has more pressing things to do with his time…such as making a new conspiracy film that he admits will deal with 9/11 again and hit it even harder than he did in Zeitgeist: Addendum.


Just for the sake of argument, let’s take these people at their word that the Zeitgeist Movement isn’t really about conspiracy theories.

What are they actually doing to foster their grand schemes of world utopia and computers designing our future for us? This is where it gets a little vague. I read the FAQ on the Zeitgeisters’ web page—supposedly authored by Jacque Fresco (link here) and found it, in addition to being carelessly written to the point of cut-and-pasting the same material verbatim several times, long on abstractions and short on action. When pressed on how the Zeitgeist Movement is actually addressing particular specific problems in society, Eccles said this:


“With a systems approach to society. This is not something new from The Venus Project. Sciensits [sic], anthropologists talk about this again and again and again. And by continually asking ‘how would they tackle specific problems’ really makes me laugh.”


Yeah, that whole idea-into-action thing is really humorous.

Nothing to waste our time on there. Grand scheme to reinvent the planet and turn society upside down, but when you get down to brass tacks, the only thing they can really agree on is that posting on an Internet message board is a good thing. There is talk of raising money for a big-budget movie to promote the Venus Project but that’s another species of “getting the word out.”


So, let’s sum up. We have a movement started by a conspiracy theorist, which really isn’t about conspiracies; it’s led by the same conspiracy theorist, who is reluctant to attach his real name to the movement he purports to lead, and he’s not even a leader but a “director”; and when it comes to taking action other than posting on an Internet forum we’re told that we have to take “a systems approach,” whatever that means. If you don’t know what “a systems approach” is, well, you better run out and join the Zeitgeist Movement…but just don’t give people the impression that the Zeitgeist Movement is about conspiracy theories, because it’s really about Jacque Fresco, or Peter Merola, or a systems approach, or computers ruling the world, or…damn, I’m getting a headache. If anyone can figure out what it is that these people actually do, please let me know.


Is anyone getting the impression that the Zeitgeist Movement, to the extent it’s not about conspiracy theories (which it is), is mainly a vehicle for Peter Merola to achieve Internet fame and notoriety? And what of the poor long-suffering Jacque Fresco, who’s been flogging the Venus Project whale since 1975, but who got nowhere until a 9/11 Truther made a movie and decided to include his philosophy in its tepid sequel—which, I might underscore again, was seen by 90% fewer people than the first film which didn’t even mention the Venus Project?


I could go on all day about the disingenuousness of the Zeitgeist Movement, but I think I’ve made my point. They’re a bunch of Truthers posting on an Internet message board, and that’s pretty much all they’ll be, despite their grand schemes of redesigning human society. In fact, the conspiracy theorizing is probably going to drag them down; I mean, who but the tinfoil hat crowd credits anything a Truther says? To the extent there are valid ideas within the Venus Project–and there more than likely are–they’ll be pulled to the bottom of the dustbin of history by virtue of being chained to the cinder block of conspiracism. That’s pretty unfortunate, but that’s how it seems to be going.

Update 3/27/10.

I originally posted this blog, and got largely the push-back I expected–namely, a few Zeitgeisters shilling their movement, questioning my motives in posting this article, and uniformly asking the question that Zeitgeisters are instructed to ask to critics: “Well, how would you fix the problems of the world, then?” All but the most arrogant of us would shrug and say, “I don’t know,” which is then an entree to shill the Venus Project, the thinking being, “Well, if all you can do is tear us down and can’t provide any ideas of your own, then why not try the Venus Project and the resource-based economy? It’s a better solution than you can come up with.” Scroll down and read the comments to this blog for an example of this tactic.

Since this blog was written, however, Peter Merola, the 9/11 Truther who is the de facto leader of the Zeitgeist Movement, has made some interesting statements regarding the goals of the movement and its relationship to conspiracy theories–exactly the topic this blog is about. One of the longtime posters at the Zeitgeist Movement’s forum, a fellow known simply as Ed, has been a supporter of the non-conspiracy aspects of the Venus Project, but has also been extremely vocal about how the conspiracy aspects undermine the credibility of the Zeitgeist Movement and are ultimately counter-productive. Ed has criticized Zeitgeist: The Movie and pointed out its many factual errors, only to be attacked by other forum members, many of whom are 9/11 Truthers (as is Merola himself). Today Merola had enough and banned Ed. He posted this message in explanation:

“Ed- since you obviously have no interest in discussing ANYTHING but your disapproval of the 911 info in Z1, coupled with your neurotic obsession with making sure everyone who comes in contact with you endures your narrow declaration that Z1 is some huge blight for the movement(when, in fact, it is the core generator of interest- still- to this day for the movement), I have come to the conclusion that your interest in the movement is more undermining than anything else. You are not really interested in what we are doing. You are interested in being right in regard to your assumption that you know everything about 911 and that is that- awaiting any debate you can latch onto.”
These are Peter Merola’s exact words–you can see the exchange here, if it hasn’t been wiped clean from the forums (if it has, go here for a screenshot). The key words here are, and I will bold them for emphasis, “[Y]our neurotic obsession with…your narrow declaration that Z1 [Zeitgeist I, the film that most explicitly shills the conspiracy garbage] is some huge blight for the movement (when, in fact, it is the core generator of interest–still–to this day for the movement…“

Yes, “the core generator of interest.” Merola admits that his conspiracy movie is what brings people into the movement, and is the most important thing that brings people into the movement. This is exactly what I’m arguing in this blog, and it has been confirmed by Peter Merola’s own words. Therefore, no one can accuse me of misinterpreting his motives or of putting words in his mouth. He has confirmed exactly what this blog says.

The tenacity with which he clings to the 9/11 and other conspiracy theories, and specifically his utter refusal to repudiate them despite overwhelming evidence that they are false, can be interpreted in only one of two possible ways:

1. Mr. Merola believes that the theories are actually, factually true, in which case he is extremely misinformed, a poor scholar, a failure as a documentary filmmaker and/or largely disconnected from logic and reality, as most conspiracy theorists tend to be; or

2. Mr. Merola does not care whether his films are factually true or not, so long as they drive interest in his movement and generate membership to show up at meetings and post on his site.

Either way, there’s a serious problem here, which can only lead a rational person to be extremely skeptical of the motives and efficacy of the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project.

Update 5/19/10

Since this blog was published, two related developments have occurred.

First, Brenton Eccles, whom I quote liberally in this blog, has left the Zeitgeist Movement. After visiting the ConspiracyScience.com forum in March, he did return, but with a changed attitude. When he began questioning the Zeitgeist Movement on their own forums, including about some of the issues raised in this blog, he unleashed a firestorm of criticism from the Zeitgeisters, as well as angry replies directly from Peter Joseph Merola. Brenton was eventually banned and subsequently has denounced the Zeitgeist Movement. He is now quite commendably working on a nonprofit project to address poverty and climate change in Australia. It is my understanding that the sentiments he expressed at ConspiracyScience.com early in the year, and which I quote and take issue with in this blog, are no longer representative of his opinion.

Second, Peter Merola has made two statements related to the issue of conspiracy theories in general and ConspiracyScience.com’s perceived “feud” with him in particular. I have posted blogs addressing both of these statements in detail:

[muertos.blog.com]

[muertos.blog.com]

The second blog in particular is interesting, as it contains quotes from Merola’s statement, specifically directed at ConspiracyScience.com, that those of us who criticize him and his movement are mentally ill. In my blog you’ll see my response to those claims.

Update 2/10/11.

It’s been almost a year since I posted this blog but it’s still worth updating.

First, as many people are aware, the tragic shooting last month of Rep. Giffords and numerous others in Arizona by crazed madman Jared Lee Loughner brought some unwanted press attention on the Zeitgeist Movement. As it turns out, Loughner was heavily influenced by conspiracy-oriented programs–most notably Zeitgeist and Loose Change. In fact his former best friend stated that Loughner was virtually “obsessed” with Zeitgeist. Bizarrely, Zeitgeist Movement leader Peter Joseph Merola issued a statement threatening legal action against ABC News for reporting the Zeitgeist connection to Loughner.

This happened at the worst possible time for the Zeitgeist Movement, who have been trying to drum up support for their organization with–you guessed it–a new film, Zeitgeist: Moving Forward. It’s a 2-hour, 41-minute commercial for the utopian ideology pushed by this movement, and in that sense isn’t really anything new. Its release doesn’t seem to have generated a lot of mainstream press interest (not surprising), so the Loughner connection will, unfortunately, probably remain Zeitgeist’s claim to fame in the eyes of the mainstream media.

Brenton Eccles, mentioned prominently in the original blog and the updates, has gone back to the Zeitgeist Movement. After giving statements to the press that were highly negative of the Zeitgeist Movement, he quite suddenly recanted his past statements and tried to withdraw what he’d said to the press. Evidently he is now of the opinion that the Zeitgeist Movement is a worthwhile organization, and that the problems he had with them were his own fault.

Eccles is quoted in this article which characterizes the Zeitgeist Movement as an “Internet-based apocalyptic cult.” His sudden change of heart is also referred to:

“At times, it even seems like the world’s first Internet-based cult, with members who parrot the party line with cheerful, rote fidelity. In a phone conversation, Brenton Eccles, a former member from Melbourne, described how his involvement cut him off from reality. “It’s very, very, very isolating,” says Eccles, who was part of the communications team in the movement’s Australia branch. “You’re encouraged to kind of exit the real world. There’s kind of this us-and-them attitude.” A few days later, he sent me a document recanting most of his charges and claiming that his conflicts with the organization had in fact been his fault. This did not make it seem less cult-like.”

The reasons for Brenton’s abrupt about-face are unknown. It does indeed seem very bizarre.

In the last few months I’ve become a particular target of the Zeitgeist Movement. My name, for instance, appears on an “enemies list” compiled by the Movement’s self-described official spokesperson; I’ve had blog posts and YouTube videos devoted to tearing down my arguments; and, most ominously, Merola himself recently mistook someone on YouTube for me and threatened that he was keeping a “file” on him (meaning me). The aggressive and reflexive push-back from Zeitgeisters has intensified in the last six months, and I’m by no means special.

Until recently I have resisted calling the Zeitgeist Movement a “cult,” although I have said that I think it comes close. I’m now rethinking this position. Given the lengths they’ll go to in order to silence their critics, the lockstep “rally around the cause” behavior of its adherents particularly with regard to criticism of their leader, and the creepy about-face by Brenton Eccles, I believe this organization has crossed the line into true cult territory. (There are cults that do not have the worship of a deity as their main tenet–many people, for instance, consider Amway/Quixtar to be a cult, and that’s a business). I may write a future blog about this aspect, although it may take me a while to get around to it.


This entry was posted in Conspiracy Debunking, Ideologies and tagged conspiracy theories, critical thinking, cults, Jared Lee Loughner, Movies, woo, Zeitgeist Movement. Bookmark the permalink.
← Anatomy of a “Debate” With a Global Warming Denier and 9/11 Truther (Part II).Ron Paul Promotes Fraudulent “Petition” on Climate Change. →8 Responses to Adventures in Conspiracy-Land: the “Zeitgeist Movement.” UPDATED!
AWAKE says:
March 13, 2010 at 11:45 am
HOW MUCH DO U GET PAID TO POST THISE LIES?!???

WE FIGHT U AND THE NEW WORLD ORDER PAYMASTERS WHO PAY U!!!!!!!!!

X says:
March 13, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Mr. Muertos (I adress to you like this because I don’t really know your name),

I am a portuguese, living in Madrid (Spain), so first of all, I would like to apologise for any spelling mistake I might occur while writing in english.

I discovered the Zeitgeist Movement, and The Venus Project, quite recently and, proud as I am of having a critical mind I also like to read the counter-part in any matter, this being no exception.

Although my recent discovery, the economical system and the profit generating system we have been educated for and living in, along with its flaws, have been present on my discussions with friends for years now, without a solution for it, due to my lack of knowledge.

The Zeitgeist/Venus movement (to sum it up) gave me the option to amplify the debate and discuss a posible solution for the undeniable socio-economic-crisis that have happen repeatedly through times with worst results every time (more job losses, more poverty, more hunger, etc).

So, I do believe in a future oriented towards sustanaibility and technology development for – after researching a number of data ginven in the Zeitgeists/Venus documentaries – for me, personally, it makes perfect sense. I don’t find it a perfect system, just a better one than the one we have now.

I have met with people that believe the same, and in no mean I would call myself or them “rabid supporters” (although I don’t discard that they might exist, as well as they exist in other facets of life). I also know people from my day-to-day life who see differently and that this documentaries rase them questions, doubts. Well, I find that just the base of our evolution towards a better society: doubting, question everything, critical mind and will to learn.

Your article seems focused in degrading, which appears to be a different view from yours, and the person behind it.

To be honest, I don’t find that productive at all!

Hopefully, in the future, you will decide to present a documented article defending your point of view, or even your own documented-film where through those proofs you will be able to dismount this “conspiracy theory”. I just ask of you, respectfully, that if the only reasons you have are “because the government says so”, or “we all saw it on TV”, save us the time.

Also, I would very much be interested in your views of the world today and to know if you have, or know of somebody who has, an idea to improve the world’s, and the people that live on it, quality of life.

Again, respectfully, I ask you not to answer my request downgrading some people’s point view and solutions, but give me yours.

Thankfully,

X(my real name)

muertos says:
March 13, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Ms. Santos:

Thank you for your comment. My name actually does appear in the blog but I can understand if you missed it.

The main point of this blog is to take issue with two techniques I see the Zeitgeist Movement using: first, gaining visibility and converts through conspiracy theories and demonstrably false information, and second, by pretending (at least to critics of conspiracy theories) that “the movie isn’t the movement” and that conspiracism is irrelevant to what the Zeitgeist Movement is supposedly trying to accomplish.

Hopefully, in the future, you will decide to present a documented article defending your point of view, or even your own documented-film where through those proofs you will be able to dismount this “conspiracy theory”.

There are many articles freely available which do exactly that. This one is probably the most well-known and comprehensive. There are numerous errors and distortions in the film–just to name three at random, one from each section, (1) the identification of Christ with sun gods, which is not really true, or the inference that Jesus is the sun god of the Gnostic Christians; (2) the claim that six of the 9/11 hijackers are still alive, which is utterly false; and (3) the claim that JP Morgan caused the Panic of 1907, which is also utterly false. There are many, many MANY examples; these are just three, and as my blog was not intended as a point-by-point refutation of the film (which has been done admirably by others) but rather the nature and motives of the Zeitgeist Movement itself, I didn’t include these refutations in the blog entry.

I just ask of you, respectfully, that if the only reasons you have are “because the government says so”, or “we all saw it on TV”, save us the time.

That’s simply silly. Taking for example the 9/11 attacks, I believe that Osama bin Laden and 19 Al Qaeda hijackers (all of whom are proven to have died on September 11, by the way, contrary to what the film states) committed the terrorist attacks of 9/11 not because “the government says so,” but because that is what happened, and all of the evidence points irrevocably to that conclusion. The purpose of my blog is not “Truther debunking 101,” because that has also been done extremely well (here is a good link if you’re interested).

Also, I would very much be interested in your views of the world today and to know if you have, or know of somebody who has, an idea to improve the world’s, and the people that live on it, quality of life.

My personal views on the world today are not relevant to the subject of my blog–which, stated again, is the motivation of the Zeitgeist Movement and its relationship to conspiracy theories–but since you asked, one idea that I have to improve the world’s quality of life, which is by no means a new or radical idea, is for greater effort to be made in research and development of renewable energy sources so we can replace our reliance on fossil fuels and reverse the process of global warming. I also believe that fostering greater biodiversity and changing agricultural practices we can increase the quality of life for many people across the world. To the extent my ideas may be congruent with those found in the Venus Project, fine, wonderful, terrific; but as I’ve said that was not the point of my blog, and in fact at the end of my blog I lament that whatever good ideas the Venus Project does have to offer, they aren’t likely to gain much traction because of the unfortunate association of the Venus Project with the conspiracist Zeitgeist films.

Thanks for your comment.

Sean

anticultist says:
March 14, 2010 at 2:26 pm
beautiful I love it.

linking you on my blog.

thanks for posting this.

Jimbo says:
March 17, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Great blog post, but as a math buff, I must point out that you can’t be more fewer than 100% of the total that you are comparing. The addendum movie has 90% fewer views than the original zeitgeist movie, not 900%.

Although I’m a fan of any and all technocrat movements, you bring up excellent points about TZM and TVP that should seriously be considered by both the leadership of TZM and its members. If they don’t take it seriously, I guarantee that if they become even slightly popular, the media will tear up this movement in seconds.

Keep up the good work!

muertos says:
March 18, 2010 at 7:29 am
Thanks Jimbo. Math was never my strong suit. I’ll make a correction.

X says:
April 1, 2010 at 7:28 am
Thanks for this. Funny stuff; though yeah do wish you had some actual information to share instead of just spewing your rage & destructive nonsense. You prove the point that it is easier to tear down other people’s efforts than to make your own.

Adding, loved that all the supporting comments on this article come from the same place. You guys are so much alike! You should get a house together!

You know, a nice 3-bedroom house?

anticultist says:
April 17, 2010 at 11:59 am
If you get Jacque to pull his thumb out his anecdotal ass and build us a domed house maybe we will take that offer up.

By the way perfect day for you to of made that post Joseph, being it was April fools day when you did it seems so fitting.

An interesting discussion of TZM on a black metal forum

[blackmetal.co.uk]

Quote
james kush
Some interesting links on the benign fringe group Zeitgeist Movement:

One of the Zeitgeist followers is drawing Barack Obama in sniper crosshairs all over facebook: http://zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/zeitgeist-members-fantasy-of-assassinating-president-obama/

There is absolutely nothing in the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project's ideologies that promote violence. If the guy was Republican, it would not mean that all, most, or even a few Republicans support it.

Quote
James Kush
Forest boy was a zeitgeist member: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/9337209/Forest-boy-inspired-by-Zeitgeist-movement.html

There is nothing in the Zeitgeist Movement or Venus Project ideology that suggests that people should pretend to of been raised in a forest. Or do any of the crazy crap that person did.

David Koresh claimed to be inspired by the bible. It's pretty clear he was doing his own thing. So should all Christians be held accountable for the things he did?

Quote
James Kush
VTV says his activism for TZM is used in court against him in a child custody dispute: http://zeitgeistmovements.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/screen-shot-2012-01-17-at-11-33-56-am.png?w=1000

And the lawyer who tried that, failed. Miserably. The judge laughed at him. Nice try though. (Just a note, this is the kind of stalking I was talking about earlier.)

Quote
James Kush
ZM spokesman Douglas Mallette suspended from european tour for murder hate comments http://varldsklassprojektteamet.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/douglas-malettes-forelasningar-stalls-in/

Yes, something you sourced for them. And you LIED. You always leave the context out of those statements. And what was actually said. You stalk Mallette around the internet and every time he becomes involved with one conference or another you spread your lies. You failed last time thankfully. They deleted your trash and that was that.

Quote
James Kush
Zeitgeist Member poses as bin laden and makes bomb threats:http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/01/osama_bin_laden_letters_suspect_was_deemed_too_extreme_for_zeitgeist_movement.php

...And that guy was obviously insane? Lets look at how the Zeitgeist Movement treated their interactions with him:

"A member of the Zeitgeist movement in Chicago told the FBI that O’Donnell attended meetings from June and Sept. 2010 and shouted out that the Rockefellers should be arrested. He was subsequently banned from meetings because his behavior was “extreme,” according to the FBI source."

Odd that you leave out that he was not a member of the Zeitgeist Movement. And was in fact THROWN OUT of the Zeitgeist Movement. Were you just hoping they would not read the article?

Quote
James Kush
Occupy Movement assembly says ZM viewed as a cult: http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2011/10/14/occupy-tucson-starts-saturday-9-am-armory-park

You are again misleading in your "evidence" here. The article says SOME people at Occupy Tuscon felt that way. Not the entire Occupy movement. Nor even a large Occupy chapter. I am highly involved in Occupy Detroit. Nobody cares that I am part of TZM or TVP. Occupy is made up of a lot of different activist groups. You are again engaging in deceptive tactics as you always do.

Quote
James Kush
Here is a long discussion of various chapter coordinator within ZM discussing what a great idea it is to murder 1000 innocent people: http://zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/the-zeitgeist-movement-is-planning-to-kill-people/

So, you claim that you notified the FBI that we are planning mass murder. (A claim you repeat on your internet rag frequently.) if that is the case, why has no one been arrested, and why has no investigation been conducted?

I have an answer for you, and it should be fairly obvious. It's because there is no plot.. You linked your own blog as the source for your own lies. And the information that it is based on, again is taken from the forums, from posts of INDIVIDUALS. Every large group attracts crazy people. The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project do not advocate violence. Ever. For any purpose.

Quote
James Kush

Just for archiving and info purposes. Im not making a case. Just throwing some facts out there.

Good day.[/quote]

James Kush (If that is his real name) engages in spin and sometimes outright lies. He spends so much time at it that some people have wondered if he is getting paid to do it.

I would not call Meurtos a source. He is just another obscure internet blogger.

I have already touched on the "Conspiracy Theory" stuff several pages ago. If people want me to go through it again I will. But TVP never had any relationship to the conspiracy crowd. And TZM does not actively promote them either. Peter Joseph had a passing interest in them in college. He does not promote any of that through TZM because it is not relevant to TZM.