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2012_CT
Somone pointed me to this thread and thought I'd put down my thoughts on the matter.
This should be interesting.
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2012
@VTV this thread is a few months old why revive it?
I was curious if the conversation had continued. I noticed that David Wish in another desperate attempt to suggest that TZM engages in "dangerous cult abuse" tried to suggest that just because some members of TZM are also involved in Occupy that therefore anyone getting hurt at Occupy Protests is evidence of TZM "cult abuse" which is asinine. It does not surprise me that you don't like that I brought it up again as it was an epic failure on the part of the internet stalkers who have perpetuated the "TZM Cult" myth on the internet.
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2012
My current stance on internet cults is that there haven't been enough academic journals really published (that have went through the peer review process) about the topic to really be defined as a group tat is purely on the internet and is a cult. Therefore groups like TVP, TZM, or Destinian along with other suspicious groups cannot really fall under the label of being a cult because of the lack of evidence to back up a claim. The evaluation methods for cults as far as on Rick Ross site are purely for localized based cults (or close vicinity) and therefore trying to apply such evaluation methods on internet based groups should not be taken that seriously until there is more academic works that look into such matters. However I'm not saying Rick Ross evaluation method for cults is bad, I'm just saying that there needs to be more academic work on the possibility of if there could be a possibility that internet based cults could exist and at that would the evaluation methods differ (I assume they would) from the typically evaluation method.
You guys were all about suggesting that TZM met the "cult" criteria until Mr. Ross actually called you to task on the topic of evidence that you don't have about how TZM fits the medium. Now after months of abusing the term "cult" to try and bring negative attention to a group that kicked you off their internet forums for trolling your stance is to suggest "Oh well it could be a cult still... we just don't have enough information..." I think Mr. Ross handles this well below in his answer to you. But the bottom line is there is no abuse taking place. There is nothing dangerous being suggested, or implied in what TZM suggests. Eventually, you guys need to accept the fact that TZM is a political activist group that focuses on proposing alternative approaches to economics and technology for the benefit of all mankind. You may disagree with what TZM suggests. You may think the ideas are baseless. Poorly researched, whatever. But after studying real cults for a while to get more acquainted with situations of "group think" I think it is absolutely despicable that trolls abuse the term for their own vendettas. REAL cults seriously hurt people. And I think abusing that term is as bad as calling someone a rapist or child molester falsely.
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2012
In that I am concerned that TZM and TVP are based in a Utopian ideology. A RBE (TVP's Resource Based Economy) or RBEM (TZM's version of a RBE called a Resource based Economic Model), are what attract the majority of people within these groups. In a RBE or RBEM people do not have jobs, resources are shared global and distributed equally amongst the Earths in habitants, if you want something you don't buy it you simply request it and the computer will figure out if there is a possibility based on the Earth resources if that item can be made.
And? So what? We suggest that the world pursue "off grid" technology and scientifically evaluate the use of resources. There is nothing religious about that. There is not even anything "utopian" about that. I would say what is utopian would be the idea that we can continue to expend resources on a planet with finite resources, and pollute what resources we have, etc and expect the planet to be inhabitable forever while we make more and more junk without any concern for the future. That sounds utopian to me.
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2012
Long story short my concern is the young people or have nots in society who are attracted to a RBE or RBEM. Mostly young people although they can be older. My concern is that the younger generation hasn't really put in there time so to say, and therefore when organization such as TVP or TZM say things "like when you clock in to a job your walking into a dictatorship" or "that jobs are slavery", these kids could base there thoughts on this material as to why they do not want to work. At that no one is forcing anybody to work, just ask VTV although I believe he's close to his 40's I don't think he's had a job in a long time (a few years now), he often blames the system as to why he doesn't have a job; to the extent that he begs for money on his internet radio show so he can continue to pay his rent and have a roof over his kids head.
This sort of thing is further evidence of the internet stalking/cyberbullying you see. First of all, what hard data do you have to support your theory that TZM mostly only appeals to young people? You don't have any such data. But you typically rely on just making guesses and stating them as facts.
Secondly, you know nothing about my situation at home. Or what the "system" is like where I am at. You have never met me. You have never been to my home. You have never tried to look for a job where I live. Nor do you know anything about the situations surrounding things like child care, expenses etc that could make it hard to find a job.
It is true and public knowledge that I ask for donations for the work I do as an Indy journalist. That would include me and thousands of other journalists doing the exact same thing. Your choice to frame it as "begging for money" is a further example of the cyberbullying twist that you put on things. There are many months where I don't even need the donations and just turn the widget off and tell people to donate later. But you never mention that. And the last few times I have told people that I would not be able to continue and would have to work on other projects if donations did not come in. Because that was exactly the truth. That's not begging or panhandling. If people want me to keep doing it, then they will donate. If they don't, then I will move on to something else.
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2012
VTV certainly isn't the only person doing this as I've seen similar situation in TZM/TVP as I can point out numerous example of individuals both in TZM and TVP that live off SSI and or often beg or request money from people in chat so they can pay for there rent.
Again, further unsubstantiated claims. Do you have documented evidence of membership of TZM who are on SSI? Or that people "often beg or request money from people in chat"? No. You don't. You are again just hoping that people will take your word for it and not challenge it.
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2012
These people often detest money yet it's the very thing they need to live. I just think TZM/TVP could affect some young people who still have a chance in life to the extent that they justify not working because they have adopted a RBE or RBEM ideology.
There is absolutely nothing in the TZM activism that suggests that people should quit their jobs or give up their educations. Nor have you proven in any fashion that the people who are having a hard time who happen to be TZM supporters are choosing that lifestyle. It is a common conservative propaganda strategy to suggest that everyone who is having a hard time is only in that position by choice. After actually going out and talking to people in these situations many of which are far worse then mine I have yet to meet any of them who are there because they are lazy or more content to "beg". I think your entire notion of that is insulting to anyone in that situation and I honestly hope you get a chance to experience it for yourself.
Since you brought all this up in the hopes you could discredit me in the eyes of the people reading by painting me as some lazy person who begs rather then works for a living I am sure you would simply dismiss any of my own research on the topic, so this article in the Rolling Stone will have to do.
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www.rollingstone.com]
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2012
At that these people have suggest numerous times that a RBE or RBEM or based on science when in fact it's not, to me it seems to be a utopian ideology that's entirely faith based rather than fact based.
In
fact it's not huh? It's faith based? How?
The idea is to apply the scientific method to finding solutions to poverty, homelessness, violence, war, etc. It relies on facts in it's approach. Some of what we talk about it is theory, but before any of it would be put into practice it would be evaluated using the scientific method. Despite the numerous baseless accusations by the trolls who just keep saying "It's not based on science" over and over again in a propaganda loop when you break it down to it's base elements it is ALL about science. Jacque Fresco flat out admits that many of his designs may or may not be how the actual designs would be implemented. Everything has to be tested. The point is the METHOD employed.
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2012
There are no academic studies on a RBE or RBEM, no peer reviews, no science, not even a tested model, there is simply nothing, and yet the believers in TVP/TZM say it's based on science some even say academics are bias (which is a possibility but still).
Actually people living "Off Grid" all over the world are already test models. And the vast majority of the technology we suggest is already being tested and peer reviewed. I would refer again to my post above about what the core of the matter is. We need to use the scientific method to rationally approach the use of resources with the goal of maximizing the standard of living of all people on earth. Whether that means we use Geo-Thermal energy, Solar Energy, Hydroponics, Aquaponics etc all that remains to be seen.
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2012
The only way a RBE or RBEM can be implemented is on a global level as well and the only way a RBE or RBEM can be put in place is when the economy fails.
Miniature RBE's exist all over the world. As I already pointed out. It also can be implemented before any collapse in the economy. However big changes when it comes to trying new systems does tend to happen after collapses historically. Mostly because that is when people are willing to try something new. The American revolution. The French Revolution. The Bolshevik revolution. Etc. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it is bad. But the reality is that is when changes like that tend to happen.
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2012
I do think TVP/TZM RBE or RBEM ideology is silly but people do get suckered into it.
And as I have already proven, your representation or understanding of what the TZM/TVP ideology is flawed.
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2012
I mean the main motivation for wanting an RBE or RBEM is not having to work. Its such a juvenile and incoherent ideology.
This again, is an attempt by you to make a statement that is baseless as if it is established fact. Do you have any hard data to prove what motivates most people when they want to pursue an RBE? No. You don't. You also seem to think that people will not be working or that not working is the goal. Menial labor would hopefully become a thing of the past. But people would still be working innovating and developing things that they WANT to develop. And there is data that proves that is an even more productive model.
As illistrated in the work of Daniel Pink:
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www.youtube.com]