One sure sign of a cult is the lies.

What is Peter James real name?

And about where this nonsense came from:
They got this stuff at first from David Hatcher Childress (Adventures Unlimited Press, with a convenient location in Cottonwood, Arizona, just up the road from Tucson) and Duncan Roads ((Muhamar Qadafi's Man in Melbourne, NEXUS).

Check the links:
Acariya S. - Kenn Thomas's friend, who is Mr. Childress's business partner
9/11 "truthers" - Mr. Roads, Mr. Childress
Illuminati (Jewish Bankers working with British royalty) - Mr. Roads with the help of Mr. Childress

If I remember correctly first reports from Loughner's friends reported that he had been taken in by the "man did not walk on the Moon" con, also run by Mr. Childress.

Loughner's attempted assasssination of Rep Giffords looks to me like the second time this has happened, with the first being Tim McVeigh's bombing of the FBI building in Oklahoma City.

The use of fear as a tool by these two is well attested.

E.P., Peter Josephs real name is Peter Joseph Merola. At first he went by Peter J, now he goes by Peter Joseph. This is a interesting series of events that occured to reveal his name.

1st) somebody exposes peter josephs last name in a article titled "WHO IS PETER JOSEPH" [anticultist.wordpress.com]

2) within days a "documentary" called "WHO IS PETER JOSEPH" by somebody named "CHARLES ROBINSON" is released [anticultist.wordpress.com]

3) soon it is discovered that CHARLES ROBINSON is a fake name and so is his company. [anticultist.wordpress.com] Apparently, the "documentary" by Charles Robinson was really a friend name CHARLES who interviewed peter. The video "WHO IS PETER JOSEPH" ended up including DATED screenshots made after the "WHO IS" article was published! lol

4) Then they tried to cover it up with a new video: [www.youtube.com] where he admits he made the name up out of "FEAR"

NOTE: THIS DOES NOT MAKE THEM A CULT, in of itself. I am merely answering this mans question, "Who is Peter Joseph".

Im sure I will be accused of spin etc, as most of my comments are under attack on this forum by the official spokesmen.

Like i said, i will let the evidence speak for itself.

Quote
E.P. Grondine
One sure sign of a cult is the lies.

What is Peter James real name?

And about where this nonsense came from:
They got this stuff at first from David Hatcher Childress (Adventures Unlimited Press, with a convenient location in Cottonwood, Arizona, just up the road from Tucson) and Duncan Roads ((Muhamar Qadafi's Man in Melbourne, NEXUS).

Check the links:
Acariya S. - Kenn Thomas's friend, who is Mr. Childress's business partner
9/11 "truthers" - Mr. Roads, Mr. Childress
Illuminati (Jewish Bankers working with British royalty) - Mr. Roads with the help of Mr. Childress

If I remember correctly first reports from Loughner's friends reported that he had been taken in by the "man did not walk on the Moon" con, also run by Mr. Childress.

Loughner's attempted assasssination of Rep Giffords looks to me like the second time this has happened, with the first being Tim McVeigh's bombing of the FBI building in Oklahoma City.

The use of fear as a tool by these two is well attested.

Filmmakers, authors, musicians etc commonly use alias's for their work. This does not prove anything "cult" like. The reason he did not attach his full name to his work is because of the kind of harassment I have already shown. Not to mention death threats from angry Christians for making an atheist movie, the harassment of his family that had nothing do with his project, etc. etc. etc.

Quote
james kush
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

Jacque Fresco's birthday has been made into the zeitgeist holiday called ZDAY. This is fact. VTV, your answer to this allegation was that you were never made aware. That doesn't change the fact. In fact, members know very well what Zday centers upon. "And here's our greatest opportunity: Z-Day 2011. The annual Zeitgeist Day, celebrated on and around Jacque Fresco's birthday, March 13th." [blog.thezeitgeistmovement.in] Pleading ignorance is not a affirmative defense.

No, the reason I pointed out I was never made aware is that it is not what you are implying it to be at all. We didn't get together with silk robes in some super secret grove and agree to have a holiday venerating Jacque Fresco. If it was done that way it really is no different then trying to honor any other activist. Martin Luther King's birthday was made a holiday as well. Does this make the civil rights movement a cult? I have already debunked this. There are people within this activist movement that admire Jacque. But as has been pointed out already this happens in a lot of activist movements and does not prove any sort of "cult worship". Mr. Fresco is not sleeping with anyone's wives, molesting anyone's children, or controlling anyone's lives. As has been repeated more then once, the weak attempt to compare people being inspired by Jacque's words does not make him a cult leader.

Quote
James
In regards to the idols, you say that it is a artists project but on that link I provided the article is described as "merchandise" and the poster declares "I did it out of respect and admiration and also as a way to possibly help them get some more income if they wished to add it to their merchandise." According to the creator of the bust: "I did it out of respect and I felt that maybe other supporters of the project would enjoy having it as a reminder of the brilliant man that even at 94 is still trying to change the world."

Because you use the word "idol" to imply something that is not in any way intended. I have seen people do similar projects of different people they admire, including scientists, artists, musicians, activists, politicians, etc. During Ron Paul's campaign for president people did all sorts of art using his image. It does not mean anyone is "worshiping" these "idols" as you call them. This is an attempt again at spin and deceptive tactics. It is also only the project of one person. And I don't even know anyone who has purchased one. Again, you tried to paint this as if the entire movement has these little statues that you call "idols" and this is total bunk.

Quote
James
The point of that statement from Peter Joseph was not that he was calling out the person who made the accusation, the point is, he created a "thought terminating cliche" he dubbed "the circus" designed to get members to ignore all information presented by individuals using words like:
"cult"
"conspiracy theorist"
"communist"
"new world order"
"Marxist"
"satanist"
"theosophist"
"anti-freedom"
"anti-semetic"
"racist"
and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.-Peter Joseph

He says those terms are "Tell-tale signs of The Circus". So basically, what he is doing is brain-locking followers to ignore and laugh off any and all the criticism that includes those words. Your response really has nothing to do with 'thought conforming cliches" or the use of such a cliche in the phrase "the circus". In fact, the use of the "circus" is not limited to one article, Peter Joseph has a lecture series on it:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Interesting use of "the circus" here:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

This is thought control. Zeitgeist teaches people how to block criticism "rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment."-Peter Joseph.

It is not "thought" control to say that the media has a tendency to grab onto any scandal they can for ratings. That is again the point he was trying to make and honestly after studying about the media as much as I have I don't disagree. The internet as well is stock full of abuses of these kinds of distinctions. I have seen a lot of the same sort of thing on your blog.

Quote
James
Yes it is because Zeitgeist teaches people right on its "knowledge database" (link provided), that the movies are not related to the movement, and then he goes on to say: "There is often some confusion in this regard and in the most extreme cases some people have the knee-jerk reaction that TZM support's forbidden "Conspiracy Theories" or is "Anti-Religious" or the like. This type or rhetoric tends to be of a pejorative/insulting nature, used in the context of dismissal of The Movement by an erroneous and "taboo" external association. The fact is, there is no association whatsoever." Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Zeitgeist is training people to ignore the criticism of the first film and to label those who criticize it as having a "knee jerk reaction" amongst other things. In fact, the "movement" was created during the ending segment of the "zeitgeist movie" sequel.

The first link on the "zeitgeistmovement" forum is directly associated with the first film:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Clearly, the founder is providing expanded material for "zeitgeist movement" to use, directly related to the first film! He says:
"So, if you happen to come across people who have absorbed the biased disposition that The Zeitgeist Movement 'must' be discredited because I, Peter Joseph, made a "debunked" film - please show them the above PDF. I can assure you it will keep them busy for a while... It's going to take a great effort to distort this one."- Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

See, at this point, we have to stop and see why does this group try so hard to shake the first film! It is because it is a piece in the mind control/cult puzzle that damages their credibility.

Again, you are inventing motivations. The reason we don't get into the first film is because as I have already pointed out, it has NOTHING TO DO with what we are doing now. There are many people in TZM who do not agree with the first film at all. Including Jacque Fresco himself. It was made long before Peter ever knew what a Resource Based economy was, or what the Venus Project was. You will notice it is not mentioned on the Venus Project website at all. And I can provide you with video of me talking to Jacque Fresco about it if you want to see it. Again, you do not have to be a conspiracy theorist, or an atheist to be involved in TZM or support the RBE economic model. And nobody is being "trained" to do anything. You really have no idea what it is like to be in the Zeitgeist movement. There is no rigid curriculum being forced on anyone. Individual chapters operate mostly autonomously and as I have already pointed out the forums and other communication mediums are not even used by a tenth of the membership. If we were a "thought controlling cult" we would have to have a great deal more control over the information that our membership receives or interacts with. This cannot be achieved on the internet. This is why I continue to laugh when people try and make these comparisons as they are hogwash. We don't live on a compound where all of our information is filtered to us by some cult leader. And the VAST majority of the membership has never even talked to Peter or Jacque.

Quote
James
How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?
VTV says: "So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement? "

No, my point of "coercive persuasion" is the use of fear tactics. According to culteducation.com: "These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger." So Zeitgeist movement uses bizarre conspiracy theories, they use baseless projections for impending catastrophe, and yes, they even warn their followers to "mentally prepare for violence".

That is just ridiculous. He is trying to make people "unreasonably afraid"? By telling them that the media is full of BS? Are the filmmakers of the films "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's war on Journalism" and "Orwell rolls in his grave" evil fear mongers trying to control people or are they trying to inform people about just how much garbage goes into our media? Nobody is hiding under a table somewhere afraid of the media because of what Peter said about the media that most people know anyway.

Quote
James
VTV: "There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable"."

The zeitgeist movies baseless projections are based on conspiracy. Do not twist zeitgeist to something it is not. Tell me now how the conspiracy notions presented by zeitgeist are not "baseless projections for impending catastrophe! In fact, that is the whole basis of Zeitgeist.

The bolded text is advice you yourself should follow. And the reason your throwing that at me now is in an effort to project at me in the hopes that the readers gloss over exactly what your trying to do. You did not address anything I put in that post. Which is why I re-quoted it. The rest of the "conspiracy stuff" your talking about is not relevant. I pointed out what is actually important to TZM/TVP which is the situation on the planet. Not whether or not 911 was an inside job, or any of that other stuff. Just about what is going to happen to us if we continue to pollute this planet to the point it is uninhabitable, or continue to use up the resources on the planet without paying any attention to what will happen if we do so. THAT is what the movement is focused on so far as "doomsday scenarios" and it is not baseless. Please explain to me how the idea that polluting the earth until it is uninhabitable is an "unreasonable fear"? How about using up all of the resources irrespective of what is safe to the ecology? These two things are common sense. Not crazy conspiracy theory. If the world is poisoned to the point nobody can live here, we all die. If we use up the resources without any concern for the consequences then we all die. This is just common sense. Not freaky conspiracy theory.

Quote
James
In regards to the doomsday notions, you respond:

VTV: "There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse."

VTV, please keep in mind, not any one criteria here makes me believe Zeitgeist is a cult, rather, when you take all the evidence collectively, a clearer picture emerges.

No. You are not making any "clearer picture". I have repeatedly demonstrated the spin tactics, quote mining, and information taken out of context you have used. These tactics are used all the time during political campaigns to smear the opposition.

Quote
James
Ironically, the video you posted of Jacque fresco goes on to say that we "will all kill each other in our current system", more fear mongering. [www.youtube.com]

Well then I guess we better tell every single scientist who has ever said similar things such as Suzuki, Sagan, etc. that they should stop fear mongering when they talk about the very real dangers of what will happen if mankind does not consider the future implications of it's pollution of the earth and gorging on the resources of the planet without consideration for the future. Again, there are dozens if not hundreds of organizations with similar fears, that are backed by real science.

Quote
James
How can cults control information?
VTV, in regards to banning and blocking on zeitgeist forums: "We have already debunked this nonsense. The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here." -VTV

Yes because you ban/block does not make you a cult, but it does show how you control information, which is something cults do. Censoring posts, removing radio programs from your channel, block dissenters, all those things demonstrate "information control". My main point was to underline information control, as I said before, the primary use of information control by the Zeitgeist is not the banning/blocking, but rather the "cliches" that prevent members from thinking openly and critically about the group.

Again, as has already been pointed out, keeping the forums from going off topic, or being trolled does not constitute a rigid control over information. As the majority of Zeitgeist Movement activism goes on over the internet or in public places in order to have the sort of control that cult experts are talking about we would have to be tapping people's phones, monitoring all of their emails, preventing them from setting up their own message boards, FB groups, etc and we do none of that. The communication mediums that you are talking about are used voluntarily and only by a fraction of the movement. So if we are trying to control all information being exchanged by our movement we are doing a poor job of it. Information control in cults generally happens if such a cult lives on a compound wherein they control all information in and out. The Zeitgeist Movement does not have an infrastructure to allow that even if we wanted to. And you could never get away with that considering the mentality of the average member of TZM. This is why your comparison falls flat on it's face. There is no mechanism for the kind of control your talking about.

Quote
James
Destructive Cult Recruitment
VTV: "We don't hide anything from anyone. But the reason that information is not handed out to people is because it is not what the movement is about."

So you dont hide anything from anybody, yet you hide information that is predominate in your group because "it is not what your movement is about? Then explain this:

You keep making the false statement that it is "predominate" in our group. And it's not. I have already pointed out that this is a false statement yet you keep repeating it hoping you can establish a "fact". AGAIN, conspiracy theories and atheism are not required to support the RBE economic model.

Quote
James
Jacque is clearly delivering a message to coordinators on how to infiltrate religion!
[www.youtube.com]

You use the charged statement "infiltrate religion" with the "!" at the end of it for sensationalist effect. He was suggesting to people how to help people understand this idea from the point of view of people who happen to be religious. Activist groups when they want to reach out to people of different values have to consider how to appeal to those people on their level. There is a great deal we want to achieve in an RBE that is compatible with what a lot of religions want to achieve. Which is why we do have religious people in the movement. Even though there are many atheists.

Quote
James
Zeitgeist Movement hates Christians:
[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

HAH, so you link your OWN blog with your OWN spin as if that lends credibility to your claim. This would be like Bill O'Reilly playing a video of himself giving his own opinion to say "See? People think like me too!". All you put there are videos of Peter's personal atheist beliefs. And then you try and say that is the view of the entire movement. Which is as I have already pointed out, patently false.

Quote
James
Yes the movies is what the movement is about, here are members promoting zeitgeist and carrying around "zeitgeistmovie" banners:
[www.youtube.com]

No, now your trying to twist words again. I said that the FIRST movie is not what the movement is about. This is where you try and misrepresent what I said. And are now repeating yourself again within the same post as if it is new information. And again, there are parts of the movies that individuals in the movement do not agree with, and don't have to. They are also not the only movies passed around in the movement or made by movement members either. There are plenty of other movie projects that talk about what we are doing.

Quote
James
Here members are handing out cards that say "Zeitgeistmovie" right on them:
[www.youtube.com]

Here are members handing out DVDs, [www.youtube.com] notice the guy speaks about the "monetary system" and "solutions", clearly, the zeitgeist movement is playing the "dummy card" thinking that people will not go back and see the first film, when the are handed part two, at which point, they will be hit with Peter Josephs esoteric/theosophical take on Christianity, 9/11 conspiracy, and "international bankers" and "chip implants". In fact, addendum includes a huge portion of pure conspiracy by a man named "john perkins" who has been declared a fraud and conspiracy theorists by the US government and reputable news outlets.

So clearly, we see Zeitgeist in a religious battle and is involved in conspiracy and yet when recruiting they leave those elements out, amongst other things.[/quote]

Again, your posting videos of what INDIVIDUAL members are doing and saying and hoping you can use it as evidence that they were mandated to do this from the "top" or that any significant amount of the membership is doing this, and this is simply not true. In my chapter we don't pass out videos with any conspiracy stuff in it at all. Peter Joseph made Z3 with no conspiracy content whatsoever which is a further reflection that the movement itself is not founded on that.

Quote
James
I like your commentary on the discussion:
VTV: 1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")

2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.

Lets stick to the subject and let the evidence speak for itself, shall we?

Nice try in attempting to deflect me calling you out on your tactics. I feel you are trying to manipulate people here and I am exposing that. And providing evidence of my own of that very thing.

Quote
James
The Demand for Purity
1) douglas mallette is a lead technician for the zeitgeist movement. and YOU agreed with him that people needed to be "annihilated". You are the venus project official spokesperson, you said, "absolutely". The point is your group views yourself as seeking purity (organization seeking to feed children", and aggressors as "evil" and bad" that "deserve to die because they are worthless skin". This fits the demand for purity: "In the thought reform milieu, as in all situations of ideological totalism, the experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil."

2) you are the official spokesman and you removed the whole murder dialog. more information control

3) VTV says "Your information about the UN is inaccurate" the issue at hand has nothing to do with the UN. It has to do with the "demand for purity". "The individual thus comes to apply the same totalist polarization of good and evil to his judgments of his own character: he tends to imbue certain aspects of himself with excessive virtue, and condemn even more excessively other personal qualities - all according to their ideological standing. He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences - that is, from the ever-threatening world beyond the closed, totalist ken. Therefore, one of his best way to relieve himself of some of his burden of guilt is to denounce, continuously and hostilely, these same outside influences." I really dont care about the UN. Thats not why I posted that, it has to do with the violent nature of Venus Project "lead technician" member douglas mallette demonstrating how "EVIL" and "BAD" people who attack buildings need to die.

4) VTV says "Douglass has since apologized for his wording" Yeah, "wording", not beliefs. In his "apology" he takes the time to plug "attack preparation": [www.youtube.com] (More fear tactics)

VTV: I will let Doug speak for himself in that video that your attempting to spin. But Doug was very clear. We recognize that people may try to be violent even towards a peaceful group of people trying to implement this system, particularly if it was done during an economic/ecological collapse. You framed this as if Doug was trying to be a drill sergeant preparing people for war. Again extremely deceptive tactics. I notice you didn't post the entire video of Doug addressing that issue.

Yeah he was very clear. "Mentally prepare yourself for attacks". Anyways....

This is why people eventually block you from their FB accounts, and you get banned from our forums. I already addressed all of this. You ignored every point I made and then just re posted the same argument as if it was new information. So I am just going to repeat what I already said about this:

1. Douglass Mallette is just an individual supporter. He cannot "speak for the Venus Project". But he is a supporter of it.

2. The quote your talking about was never on the Zeitgeist Movement's website, or the Venus Project's website. It was on my website, as it took place on my radio show. I would note to the readers that this again is deceptive on his part, as he tried to claim this is a view held by the entire movement.
His statement that it was on the "official site" is a blatant lie. And it was not made "only available to members" it was on my radio show which plenty of people who are not members listen to.

3. Your information about the UN is inaccurate. Douglass wants to develop an automated hydroponic farming system. The UN offers funding for such things. He was never asking for money for a test city for the Venus Project. This is blatantly false. And further proves a lack of credibility.

4. Douglass has since apologized for his wording. But it was a comment made in conversation and the scenario that was actually painted was that in a possible future where we, a peaceful group trying to help people in the world build a food production facility and some nefarious group destroyed that facility likely killing hundreds of people in the process and leaving hundreds of thousands of others without food that action would have to be taken against them. I have seen this spun as "he thinks people should be killed for attacking a building" while very deceptively leaving all of the information about why that building would be attacked, and who could be hurt in the process out of the description. This is a classic example of someone public making a strong statement and then getting sound bited and taken out of context.

Quote
Me

Quote
James
Understand it is this Good Vs Evil that I am talking about:
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").

VTV: Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.

AM I LYING? Really?? Whats this then?? [www.youtube.com] @about 1:25.

And after 4 minutes here he says there will be no families in Jacques future:
[www.youtube.com]

So clearly, you are trying to discredit me by saying im lying, instead just ask me for proof, which I can provide.

In the videos in question Jacque believes that in the far future most people will choose not to have children. We are already seeing this trend develop as less and less couples choose to have children. It will still never be forced on anyone, people can have children if they want to. Peter and Jacque personally don't want to have children. But there are tons of family oriented people in TZM. In the second video you list Jacque talks about reforming education to filter out negative elements like racism. He also makes it clear you can't take people's children away from them.

I don't have time to find the specific part of this video, but Peter describes here about the benefits for the family in an RBE. And Dr. Gabor Mate whom I have had on my show talks about the difficulties for families in the monetary system, how the fact that both parents are generally working and the children rarely see them is breaking down and destroying the family. This problem would go away in an RBE. [www.youtube.com]

Quote
James
Demand For Purity
Yes this a blend of perfection and sacred science, or what Peter calls "functional spirituality". [www.youtube.com]

Again, you keep calling it "sacred science" and I have already debunked that. Your repeating already debunked points again.

Quote
James
VTV: And in the video he says "It's not perfect at all" and uses the word "hopefully". Are you just hoping people are not going to actually watch the video? He says it's the best science can offer us through using the scientific method. This is further proof of deceptive debate on your part.

Yeah he says a variance of perfection. Its in the video, check it out.

Sarcasm: OH! Now it's a "variance of perfection". You just qualified that after the fact. After quoting "perfect" about a dozen times in your last post without mentioning that the quote you were taking out of context came from a video where he says "It's not perfect at all." Sorry man, your exposed on this one.

Quote
James
VTV, I really dont care if “trolls” made this video where Frescos says he wants to create "heaven on earth". If somebody wants to hear the whole interview they can ask me for a link in PM for the whole context. youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o
It it further evidence of the seeking of "purity". "Thought reform bears witness to its more malignant consequences: for by defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition."-culteducation.com

They can ask you in PM for the whole context? How convenient is that? Your offering to engage with people who have questions about your allegations to have a PM conversation with you where I cannot offer counter argument. Who is controlling information now? Of course you don't care that trolls made the video and clearly quoted things out of context in an outright dishonest fashion. I notice you stuck with that and didn't address the glaring flaws in their logic? These people make videos like this for the same reason your debate has weak associations in it. You are hoping will not investigate further for themselves. You did not address any of my critique of this video at all.

Quote
James
Sacred Science
Peter Joseph says "science and technology is divinity in action" youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag

"Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development" rick ross.com

More repetition of already debunked points. Peter suggesting that through science we can achieve what people think of as "divine" is not claiming "sacred science" in the cult sense at all. There is nothing irrational or "sacred" about the common sense notion that we can find effective solutions through using logic, reason, and the scientific method more effectively then through politics or superstition.

Quote
James
VTVs reponse: "The video speaks for itself. Your again really trying to stretch" Yeah it does speak for itself, it says god is fake, jesus is fake, men are gods, and “science and technology is divinity in action”, “science is the tool for functional spirituality”. This is the core definition of sacred science. It is a element of cult criteria.

Your trying to twist it that way. But I already addressed this as well. Peter is an atheist. He believes that using science to find solutions is superior then superstition. I would say this idea is pretty obvious. And again, you failed to address my point that there are plenty of atheists involved with plenty of organizations all over the world that are not "cults".

Quote
James
Peter Joseph says Christianity is a man made fraud and man is really god. "Mans creative ability is true divinity". youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1 For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be. culteducation.com

Science achieves things that centuries ago would of been perceived as the power of "God" or "Gods" or whatever. This is what he is getting at. Once again, because he is an atheist. Atheism, or atheistic beliefs does not make someone a cult leader, or any organization he is part of a cult.

Quote
James
VTV response: "because he is an atheist" So what if he is a atheist? He is planting the seeds for his “sacred science”.

You have failed utterly to demonstrate any proof of "sacred science" and are now engaged in repetition of failed logic again and again as I exposed previously.

Quote
James
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Zeitgeist is seeking economic gain. I have already provided evidence of this. I realize alot of places sell things and it doesnt make them a cult. But when you combine the sales with the leader "worship" and the various examples of though control being used, well then the picture of a "cult" emerges.

Actually, I debunked all of the things you said about "economic gain" and the comparison to how cults monetarily abuse people and how that is not happening in TZM. Purchasing any product from any TZM site, or donating anything IS NOT REQUIRED FOR MEMBERSHIP. And this does not in any way compare to cults that financially abuse people. As I pointed out and you of course ignored, in real cults they take control over all of your money. It is a requirement for being associated with that organization. TZM could be making far more money but instead gives virtually everything away. I also already debunked any notions of "worship". Your repeating already debunked points again and again hoping nobody will notice. Would be fun to have you on the radio sometime because it is much more obvious when someone does that in an audio conversation.

Quote
James
I have no personal grudge. I don’t need Rick Ross to label you a cult. In fact, based on the constant videos of your members, it is your movement who is in need of somebody to clear the cult tag. Here is a cache of audio/video demonstrating zeitgeist are trying to convince people they are not a cult: [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

The fact that as has already been shown you have failed to provide any actual evidence of the cult abuse Mr. Ross asked for is proof that we are not a cult. You, Prometheus and David Wish have all tried to sttreeeetcccchhh the meanings of the word "abuse" and "cult" to suit your own purposes but you have failed to provide any evidence at all. People trying to refute the cult notion is not proof that we are a cult either. This is an attempt to put us back in the catch 22. That is that I have heard that if we don't defend ourselves from the cult allegation that we are a cult, yet strangely IF WE DO try to defend ourselves from the cult allegation we are also a cult. Interesting how that works. Back to being burned at the stake by the girl in "The crucible".

Quote
James
The need for my repetition (if any) is because many of the criteria of cults intertwine. For example, the "demand for purity" includes elements of "thought control cliches" and "fear tactics". So naturally, I would need to repeat some things. If I was "spinning" data, i would not provide the links. If I provide the complete convos. it would be hard to identify where my examples take place so I include condensed versions. However, people can see if Im "spinning" when they go research the items in their full context, if they need I will supply via PM.

No. Your engagement in solid repetition is a tried and true method of propaganda. Your refusal to put any such "evidence" here for everyone both pro and anti TZM to see is "control of information" because as has already been demonstrated you know what will happen if you try those tactics where I can see them. In a PM conversation you would be free to spin things without any fear of me proving you are wrong. There is absolutely no reason you could not just share the links here. I find your suggestion that such information only be offered in PMs where you are free to put any spin on it you want highly dubious.

Quote
James
You are also going out of your way to discredit me. You say i have a track record of these discussions but in fact my evidence is valid and I can prove it.

Right, but only in PMs.

Quote
James
The last time we had a discussion, I exposed the motto for ZDAY (fresco's bday) as coming from a lucifer worshiping mason. Within minutes it was removed from the official website and we have not discussed since. Clearly, if i am bring invalid points, you would not have deleted the Zeitgeist Slogan from the page! [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

Yes, this would be because of your fixation with luciferian and masonic conspiracy theories. I notice you avoided that sort of debate here. But anyone who looks closely at what you spam endlessly in every debate I have ever seen you put on FB your arguments are full of the same conspiracy theory stuff that you are trying to label TZM for. Convenient that you left all that off the table when you came here. The quote was:

"“What we have done for ourselves alone, dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal”."

You will also notice that it is labeled "Albert Pine" on the Z-day website. I contacted Peter when you brought that to my attention and showed him the information you had on it. He told me he had found the quote and liked it and it was apparently mis-labeled. This is an excerpt from that email conversation:

Quote
Peter Joseph
in the end, it is good your pointed out that quote error though, which i just realized. It was noted as a Pine quote online - not Pike and Pike was, indeed a weirdo- so it is worth removing/correcting. A real Pike quote would never have been posted...so thanks for pointing that out.

So it was removed. Now I have to ask Mr. Kush, is it OK to believe in crazy masonic devil worshipping conspiracy theories or not? As you seemed pretty fixated on that stuff when you were posting amongst the conspiracy theorist crowd hoping to get negative attention for TZM. So which is it? Is that stuff loony or not? And if it is then when you do you seem so fixated on it? Do you endorse the idea that the Masonic Order is some sort of creepy secret society of evil people intent on taking over the world? The quote itself is not bad. And nothing in any of our material suggests you should worship Lucifer, or join the Masons. The argument you and I had endlessly was that you were trying to claim that the first Zeitgeist movie was an attempt to get people to worship Lucifer, and join the Masons. Don't try to deny it as I have the screenshots. I pointed out to you that the point of Z1 part 1, Peter's own opinion on the topic is from the point of atheism. As Peter personally feels all religion is BS. He doesn't suggest to people that they should worship Lucifer, or anything. He thinks all religion is BS. So if his goal was to get us all to worship Lucifer it would be rather counter productive. And what if he was suggesting we should be masons? (Which he doesn't.) Seen the Mason's do a lot of charity work in my community. Or are they some super secret cabal of people trying to take over the world? Please explain why it is relevant?

Quote
James
I am not trying to discredit you VTV, I am only demonstrating using direct statements and evidence from your group that shows much of the criteria of cults and mind control are reflective in your movement. Lets keep things civil and discuss the points, but please read why I am using this information. It is because the information fits within the context of:
#1 leadership
#2 control (thought termination clichés/coercive persuasion using fear tactics, fear tactics, information control/demand for purity/sacred science/ deceptive recruitment)
#3 gain

[/quote]

No. You have tried to paint a picture using the same tactics that the media and politicians intent on smearing a candidate or political party have been practicing for years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 01:38AM by VTV.

Is there a reason the quote feature only works half the time on this forum? I just spent a lot of time trying to make that post clear and now people have to try and figure out where I am speaking and where James is speaking by going between the

Quote

statements.

See [forum.culteducation.com]

Because the quote function seems to be messed up half the time on this message board, I went back and tried to put his statements all in bold.

Quote
james kush
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power.

Jacque Fresco's birthday has been made into the zeitgeist holiday called ZDAY. This is fact. VTV, your answer to this allegation was that you were never made aware. That doesn't change the fact. In fact, members know very well what Zday centers upon. "And here's our greatest opportunity: Z-Day 2011. The annual Zeitgeist Day, celebrated on and around Jacque Fresco's birthday, March 13th." [blog.thezeitgeistmovement.in] Pleading ignorance is not a affirmative defense.

No, the reason I pointed out I was never made aware is that it is not what you are implying it to be at all. We didn't get together with silk robes in some super secret grove and agree to have a holiday venerating Jacque Fresco. If it was done that way it really is no different then trying to honor any other activist. Martin Luther King's birthday was made a holiday as well. Does this make the civil rights movement a cult? I have already debunked this. There are people within this activist movement that admire Jacque. But as has been pointed out already this happens in a lot of activist movements and does not prove any sort of "cult worship". Mr. Fresco is not sleeping with anyone's wives, molesting anyone's children, or controlling anyone's lives. As has been repeated more then once, the weak attempt to compare people being inspired by Jacque's words does not make him a cult leader.

Quote
James
In regards to the idols, you say that it is a artists project but on that link I provided the article is described as "merchandise" and the poster declares "I did it out of respect and admiration and also as a way to possibly help them get some more income if they wished to add it to their merchandise." According to the creator of the bust: "I did it out of respect and I felt that maybe other supporters of the project would enjoy having it as a reminder of the brilliant man that even at 94 is still trying to change the world."

Because you use the word "idol" to imply something that is not in any way intended. I have seen people do similar projects of different people they admire, including scientists, artists, musicians, activists, politicians, etc. During Ron Paul's campaign for president people did all sorts of art using his image. It does not mean anyone is "worshiping" these "idols" as you call them. This is an attempt again at spin and deceptive tactics. It is also only the project of one person. And I don't even know anyone who has purchased one. Again, you tried to paint this as if the entire movement has these little statues that you call "idols" and this is total bunk.

Quote
James
The point of that statement from Peter Joseph was not that he was calling out the person who made the accusation, the point is, he created a "thought terminating cliche" he dubbed "the circus" designed to get members to ignore all information presented by individuals using words like:
"cult"
"conspiracy theorist"
"communist"
"new world order"
"Marxist"
"satanist"
"theosophist"
"anti-freedom"
"anti-semetic"
"racist"
and other blanket distinctions which are both ambiguous and culturally objectionable on average.-Peter Joseph

He says those terms are "Tell-tale signs of The Circus". So basically, what he is doing is brain-locking followers to ignore and laugh off any and all the criticism that includes those words. Your response really has nothing to do with 'thought conforming cliches" or the use of such a cliche in the phrase "the circus". In fact, the use of the "circus" is not limited to one article, Peter Joseph has a lecture series on it:
[www.youtube.com]
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]
Interesting use of "the circus" here:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

This is thought control. Zeitgeist teaches people how to block criticism "rather than be surprised by "The Circus" when it comes to town, please expect it/understand it and look at it as a form of entertainment."-Peter Joseph.

It is not "thought" control to say that the media has a tendency to grab onto any scandal they can for ratings. That is again the point he was trying to make and honestly after studying about the media as much as I have I don't disagree. The internet as well is stock full of abuses of these kinds of distinctions. I have seen a lot of the same sort of thing on your blog.

Quote
James
Yes it is because Zeitgeist teaches people right on its "knowledge database" (link provided), that the movies are not related to the movement, and then he goes on to say: "There is often some confusion in this regard and in the most extreme cases some people have the knee-jerk reaction that TZM support's forbidden "Conspiracy Theories" or is "Anti-Religious" or the like. This type or rhetoric tends to be of a pejorative/insulting nature, used in the context of dismissal of The Movement by an erroneous and "taboo" external association. The fact is, there is no association whatsoever." Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Zeitgeist is training people to ignore the criticism of the first film and to label those who criticize it as having a "knee jerk reaction" amongst other things. In fact, the "movement" was created during the ending segment of the "zeitgeist movie" sequel.

The first link on the "zeitgeistmovement" forum is directly associated with the first film:
[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

Clearly, the founder is providing expanded material for "zeitgeist movement" to use, directly related to the first film! He says:
"So, if you happen to come across people who have absorbed the biased disposition that The Zeitgeist Movement 'must' be discredited because I, Peter Joseph, made a "debunked" film - please show them the above PDF. I can assure you it will keep them busy for a while... It's going to take a great effort to distort this one."- Peter Joseph [www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

See, at this point, we have to stop and see why does this group try so hard to shake the first film! It is because it is a piece in the mind control/cult puzzle that damages their credibility.

Again, you are inventing motivations. The reason we don't get into the first film is because as I have already pointed out, it has NOTHING TO DO with what we are doing now. There are many people in TZM who do not agree with the first film at all. Including Jacque Fresco himself. It was made long before Peter ever knew what a Resource Based economy was, or what the Venus Project was. You will notice it is not mentioned on the Venus Project website at all. And I can provide you with video of me talking to Jacque Fresco about it if you want to see it. Again, you do not have to be a conspiracy theorist, or an atheist to be involved in TZM or support the RBE economic model. And nobody is being "trained" to do anything. You really have no idea what it is like to be in the Zeitgeist movement. There is no rigid curriculum being forced on anyone. Individual chapters operate mostly autonomously and as I have already pointed out the forums and other communication mediums are not even used by a tenth of the membership. If we were a "thought controlling cult" we would have to have a great deal more control over the information that our membership receives or interacts with. This cannot be achieved on the internet. This is why I continue to laugh when people try and make these comparisons as they are hogwash. We don't live on a compound where all of our information is filtered to us by some cult leader. And the VAST majority of the membership has never even talked to Peter or Jacque.

Quote
James
How is "coercive persuasion" really different from normal persuasion?
VTV says: "So Peter was trying to make people "unreasonably afraid" when he slammed on the media doing what it always does and trying to find something negative to report on to get ratings? Or by suggesting that his films have views not necessarily shared by the rest of the movement? "

No, my point of "coercive persuasion" is the use of fear tactics. According to culteducation.com: "These are fears often not based upon objective reality, such as bizarre conspiracy theories, baseless projections of an impending catastrophe, crisis and/or physical danger." So Zeitgeist movement uses bizarre conspiracy theories, they use baseless projections for impending catastrophe, and yes, they even warn their followers to "mentally prepare for violence".

That is just ridiculous. He is trying to make people "unreasonably afraid"? By telling them that the media is full of BS? Are the filmmakers of the films "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's war on Journalism" and "Orwell rolls in his grave" evil fear mongers trying to control people or are they trying to inform people about just how much garbage goes into our media? Nobody is hiding under a table somewhere afraid of the media because of what Peter said about the media that most people know anyway.

Quote
James
VTV: "There is nothing baseless about the idea that we cannot continue to pollute the earth and not expect it to become uninhabitable. Please provide me logic on why either of the above points are "baseless" or "unreasonable"."

Quote
James
The zeitgeist movies baseless projections are based on conspiracy. Do not twist zeitgeist to something it is not. Tell me now how the conspiracy notions presented by zeitgeist are not "baseless projections for impending catastrophe! In fact, that is the whole basis of Zeitgeist.

The bolded text is advice you yourself should follow. And the reason your throwing that at me now is in an effort to project at me in the hopes that the readers gloss over exactly what your trying to do. You did not address anything I put in that post. Which is why I re-quoted it. The rest of the "conspiracy stuff" your talking about is not relevant. I pointed out what is actually important to TZM/TVP which is the situation on the planet. Not whether or not 911 was an inside job, or any of that other stuff. Just about what is going to happen to us if we continue to pollute this planet to the point it is uninhabitable, or continue to use up the resources on the planet without paying any attention to what will happen if we do so. THAT is what the movement is focused on so far as "doomsday scenarios" and it is not baseless. Please explain to me how the idea that polluting the earth until it is uninhabitable is an "unreasonable fear"? How about using up all of the resources irrespective of what is safe to the ecology? These two things are common sense. Not crazy conspiracy theory. If the world is poisoned to the point nobody can live here, we all die. If we use up the resources without any concern for the consequences then we all die. This is just common sense. Not freaky conspiracy theory.

Quote
James
In regards to the doomsday notions, you respond:

VTV: "There are several organizations that fear an economic collapse."

VTV, please keep in mind, not any one criteria here makes me believe Zeitgeist is a cult, rather, when you take all the evidence collectively, a clearer picture emerges.

No. You are not making any "clearer picture". I have repeatedly demonstrated the spin tactics, quote mining, and information taken out of context you have used. These tactics are used all the time during political campaigns to smear the opposition.

Quote
James
Ironically, the video you posted of Jacque fresco goes on to say that we "will all kill each other in our current system", more fear mongering. [www.youtube.com]

Well then I guess we better tell every single scientist who has ever said similar things such as Suzuki, Sagan, etc. that they should stop fear mongering when they talk about the very real dangers of what will happen if mankind does not consider the future implications of it's pollution of the earth and gorging on the resources of the planet without consideration for the future. Again, there are dozens if not hundreds of organizations with similar fears, that are backed by real science.

Quote
James
How can cults control information?
VTV, in regards to banning and blocking on zeitgeist forums: "We have already debunked this nonsense. The forum is only used by a small amount of the organization. Zeitgeist members are not monitored for all of their communication in the way a cult would do this. You are stretching WAY far here." -VTV

Yes because you ban/block does not make you a cult, but it does show how you control information, which is something cults do. Censoring posts, removing radio programs from your channel, block dissenters, all those things demonstrate "information control". My main point was to underline information control, as I said before, the primary use of information control by the Zeitgeist is not the banning/blocking, but rather the "cliches" that prevent members from thinking openly and critically about the group.

Again, as has already been pointed out, keeping the forums from going off topic, or being trolled does not constitute a rigid control over information. As the majority of Zeitgeist Movement activism goes on over the internet or in public places in order to have the sort of control that cult experts are talking about we would have to be tapping people's phones, monitoring all of their emails, preventing them from setting up their own message boards, FB groups, etc and we do none of that. The communication mediums that you are talking about are used voluntarily and only by a fraction of the movement. So if we are trying to control all information being exchanged by our movement we are doing a poor job of it. Information control in cults generally happens if such a cult lives on a compound wherein they control all information in and out. The Zeitgeist Movement does not have an infrastructure to allow that even if we wanted to. And you could never get away with that considering the mentality of the average member of TZM. This is why your comparison falls flat on it's face. There is no mechanism for the kind of control your talking about.

Quote
James
Destructive Cult Recruitment
VTV: "We don't hide anything from anyone. But the reason that information is not handed out to people is because it is not what the movement is about."

So you dont hide anything from anybody, yet you hide information that is predominate in your group because "it is not what your movement is about? Then explain this:

You keep making the false statement that it is "predominate" in our group. And it's not. I have already pointed out that this is a false statement yet you keep repeating it hoping you can establish a "fact". AGAIN, conspiracy theories and atheism are not required to support the RBE economic model.

Quote
James
Jacque is clearly delivering a message to coordinators on how to infiltrate religion!
[www.youtube.com]

You use the charged statement "infiltrate religion" with the "!" at the end of it for sensationalist effect. He was suggesting to people how to help people understand this idea from the point of view of people who happen to be religious. Activist groups when they want to reach out to people of different values have to consider how to appeal to those people on their level. There is a great deal we want to achieve in an RBE that is compatible with what a lot of religions want to achieve. Which is why we do have religious people in the movement. Even though there are many atheists.

Quote
James
Zeitgeist Movement hates Christians:
[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

HAH, so you link your OWN blog with your OWN spin as if that lends credibility to your claim. This would be like Bill O'Reilly playing a video of himself giving his own opinion to say "See? People think like me too!". All you put there are videos of Peter's personal atheist beliefs. And then you try and say that is the view of the entire movement. Which is as I have already pointed out, patently false.

Quote
James
Yes the movies is what the movement is about, here are members promoting zeitgeist and carrying around "zeitgeistmovie" banners:
[www.youtube.com]

No, now your trying to twist words again. I said that the FIRST movie is not what the movement is about. This is where you try and misrepresent what I said. And are now repeating yourself again within the same post as if it is new information. And again, there are parts of the movies that individuals in the movement do not agree with, and don't have to. They are also not the only movies passed around in the movement or made by movement members either. There are plenty of other movie projects that talk about what we are doing.

Quote
James
Here members are handing out cards that say "Zeitgeistmovie" right on them:
[www.youtube.com]

Here are members handing out DVDs, [www.youtube.com] notice the guy speaks about the "monetary system" and "solutions", clearly, the zeitgeist movement is playing the "dummy card" thinking that people will not go back and see the first film, when the are handed part two, at which point, they will be hit with Peter Josephs esoteric/theosophical take on Christianity, 9/11 conspiracy, and "international bankers" and "chip implants". In fact, addendum includes a huge portion of pure conspiracy by a man named "john perkins" who has been declared a fraud and conspiracy theorists by the US government and reputable news outlets.

So clearly, we see Zeitgeist in a religious battle and is involved in conspiracy and yet when recruiting they leave those elements out, amongst other things.[/quote]

Again, your posting videos of what INDIVIDUAL members are doing and saying and hoping you can use it as evidence that they were mandated to do this from the "top" or that any significant amount of the membership is doing this, and this is simply not true. In my chapter we don't pass out videos with any conspiracy stuff in it at all. Peter Joseph made Z3 with no conspiracy content whatsoever which is a further reflection that the movement itself is not founded on that.

Quote
James
I like your commentary on the discussion:
VTV: 1. Solid repetition of a given piece of information being used as misleading propaganda is very common in actual "thought reform" and an attempt to look like there is "plenty" of information to support one's claim when in reality they are just repeating the same thing they said earlier. ("We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...")

2. You will notice he is not providing any context for either of the quotes he is attempting to spin here. As he is quote mining.

Lets stick to the subject and let the evidence speak for itself, shall we?

Nice try in attempting to deflect me calling you out on your tactics. I feel you are trying to manipulate people here and I am exposing that. And providing evidence of my own of that very thing.

Quote
James
The Demand for Purity
1) douglas mallette is a lead technician for the zeitgeist movement. and YOU agreed with him that people needed to be "annihilated". You are the venus project official spokesperson, you said, "absolutely". The point is your group views yourself as seeking purity (organization seeking to feed children", and aggressors as "evil" and bad" that "deserve to die because they are worthless skin". This fits the demand for purity: "In the thought reform milieu, as in all situations of ideological totalism, the experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure, into the absolutely good and the absolutely evil."

2) you are the official spokesman and you removed the whole murder dialog. more information control

3) VTV says "Your information about the UN is inaccurate" the issue at hand has nothing to do with the UN. It has to do with the "demand for purity". "The individual thus comes to apply the same totalist polarization of good and evil to his judgments of his own character: he tends to imbue certain aspects of himself with excessive virtue, and condemn even more excessively other personal qualities - all according to their ideological standing. He must also look upon his impurities as originating from outside influences - that is, from the ever-threatening world beyond the closed, totalist ken. Therefore, one of his best way to relieve himself of some of his burden of guilt is to denounce, continuously and hostilely, these same outside influences." I really dont care about the UN. Thats not why I posted that, it has to do with the violent nature of Venus Project "lead technician" member douglas mallette demonstrating how "EVIL" and "BAD" people who attack buildings need to die.

4) VTV says "Douglass has since apologized for his wording" Yeah, "wording", not beliefs. In his "apology" he takes the time to plug "attack preparation": [www.youtube.com] (More fear tactics)

VTV: I will let Doug speak for himself in that video that your attempting to spin. But Doug was very clear. We recognize that people may try to be violent even towards a peaceful group of people trying to implement this system, particularly if it was done during an economic/ecological collapse. You framed this as if Doug was trying to be a drill sergeant preparing people for war. Again extremely deceptive tactics. I notice you didn't post the entire video of Doug addressing that issue.

Yeah he was very clear. "Mentally prepare yourself for attacks". Anyways....

This is why people eventually block you from their FB accounts, and you get banned from our forums. I already addressed all of this. You ignored every point I made and then just re posted the same argument as if it was new information. So I am just going to repeat what I already said about this:

1. Douglass Mallette is just an individual supporter. He cannot "speak for the Venus Project". But he is a supporter of it.

2. The quote your talking about was never on the Zeitgeist Movement's website, or the Venus Project's website. It was on my website, as it took place on my radio show. I would note to the readers that this again is deceptive on his part, as he tried to claim this is a view held by the entire movement.
His statement that it was on the "official site" is a blatant lie. And it was not made "only available to members" it was on my radio show which plenty of people who are not members listen to.

3. Your information about the UN is inaccurate. Douglass wants to develop an automated hydroponic farming system. The UN offers funding for such things. He was never asking for money for a test city for the Venus Project. This is blatantly false. And further proves a lack of credibility.

4. Douglass has since apologized for his wording. But it was a comment made in conversation and the scenario that was actually painted was that in a possible future where we, a peaceful group trying to help people in the world build a food production facility and some nefarious group destroyed that facility likely killing hundreds of people in the process and leaving hundreds of thousands of others without food that action would have to be taken against them. I have seen this spun as "he thinks people should be killed for attacking a building" while very deceptively leaving all of the information about why that building would be attacked, and who could be hurt in the process out of the description. This is a classic example of someone public making a strong statement and then getting sound bited and taken out of context.

Quote
Me

Quote
James
Understand it is this Good Vs Evil that I am talking about:
The Zeitgeist movement believes that everything in the world today is destructive, including families, laws, governments, currency, nations, cultures, states, languages, religions, god, the list goes on and on. Everything is destructive except for The Venus Project which is "perfection" and "heaven on earth". So they strive to painfully for the non existent "perfect" venus project and "heaven on earth" by spreading the name "zeitgeist" and the movies made by Peter Joseph to everybody they know (this is called "awareness").

VTV: Ok, now we are getting into the realm of outright lying. In the Zeitgeist Orientation guide it actually talks about the benefits to families living in a Resource Based Economy and how much stronger the bonds will be when parents can actually spend a lot more time with their children in the economic model we suggest.

AM I LYING? Really?? Whats this then?? [www.youtube.com] @about 1:25.

And after 4 minutes here he says there will be no families in Jacques future:
[www.youtube.com]

So clearly, you are trying to discredit me by saying im lying, instead just ask me for proof, which I can provide.

In the videos in question Jacque believes that in the far future most people will choose not to have children. We are already seeing this trend develop as less and less couples choose to have children. It will still never be forced on anyone, people can have children if they want to. Peter and Jacque personally don't want to have children. But there are tons of family oriented people in TZM. In the second video you list Jacque talks about reforming education to filter out negative elements like racism. He also makes it clear you can't take people's children away from them.

I don't have time to find the specific part of this video, but Peter describes here about the benefits for the family in an RBE. And Dr. Gabor Mate whom I have had on my show talks about the difficulties for families in the monetary system, how the fact that both parents are generally working and the children rarely see them is breaking down and destroying the family. This problem would go away in an RBE. [www.youtube.com]

Quote
James
Demand For Purity
Yes this a blend of perfection and sacred science, or what Peter calls "functional spirituality". [www.youtube.com]

Again, you keep calling it "sacred science" and I have already debunked that. Your repeating already debunked points again.

Quote
James
VTV: And in the video he says "It's not perfect at all" and uses the word "hopefully". Are you just hoping people are not going to actually watch the video? He says it's the best science can offer us through using the scientific method. This is further proof of deceptive debate on your part.

Yeah he says a variance of perfection. Its in the video, check it out.

Sarcasm: OH! Now it's a "variance of perfection". You just qualified that after the fact. After quoting "perfect" about a dozen times in your last post without mentioning that the quote you were taking out of context came from a video where he says "It's not perfect at all." Sorry man, your exposed on this one.

Quote
James
VTV, I really dont care if “trolls” made this video where Frescos says he wants to create "heaven on earth". If somebody wants to hear the whole interview they can ask me for a link in PM for the whole context. youtube=http://www.youtube.com/user/anon11allofus#p/u/6/2m3fP3hNt2o
It it further evidence of the seeking of "purity". "Thought reform bears witness to its more malignant consequences: for by defining and manipulating the criteria of purity, and then by conducting an all-out war upon impurity, the ideological totalists create a narrow world of guilt and shame. This is perpetuated by an ethos of continuous reform, a demand that one strive permanently and painfully for something which not only does not exist but is in fact alien to the human condition."-culteducation.com

They can ask you in PM for the whole context? How convenient is that? Your offering to engage with people who have questions about your allegations to have a PM conversation with you where I cannot offer counter argument. Who is controlling information now? Of course you don't care that trolls made the video and clearly quoted things out of context in an outright dishonest fashion. I notice you stuck with that and didn't address the glaring flaws in their logic? These people make videos like this for the same reason your debate has weak associations in it. You are hoping will not investigate further for themselves. You did not address any of my critique of this video at all.

Quote
James
Sacred Science
Peter Joseph says "science and technology is divinity in action" youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRtX7rYh5ag

"Yet so strong a hold can the sacred science achieve over his mental processes that if one begins to feel himself attracted to ideas which either contradict or ignore it, he may become guilty and afraid. His quest for knowledge is consequently hampered, since in the name of science he is prevented from engaging in the receptive search for truth which characterizes the genuinely scientific approach. And his position is made more difficult by the absence, in a totalist environment, of any distinction between the sacred and the profane: there is no thought or action which cannot be related to the sacred science. To be sure, one can usually find areas of experience outside its immediate authority; but during periods of maximum totalist activity (like thought reform) any such areas are cut off, and there is virtually no escape from the milieu's ever-pressing edicts and demands. Whatever combination of continued adherence, inner resistance, or compromise co-existence the individual person adopts toward this blend of counterfeit science and back-door religion, it represents another continuous pressure toward personal closure, toward avoiding, rather than grappling with, the kinds of knowledge and experience necessary for genuine self-expression and for creative development" rick ross.com

More repetition of already debunked points. Peter suggesting that through science we can achieve what people think of as "divine" is not claiming "sacred science" in the cult sense at all. There is nothing irrational or "sacred" about the common sense notion that we can find effective solutions through using logic, reason, and the scientific method more effectively then through politics or superstition.

Quote
James
VTVs reponse: "The video speaks for itself. Your again really trying to stretch" Yeah it does speak for itself, it says god is fake, jesus is fake, men are gods, and “science and technology is divinity in action”, “science is the tool for functional spirituality”. This is the core definition of sacred science. It is a element of cult criteria.

Your trying to twist it that way. But I already addressed this as well. Peter is an atheist. He believes that using science to find solutions is superior then superstition. I would say this idea is pretty obvious. And again, you failed to address my point that there are plenty of atheists involved with plenty of organizations all over the world that are not "cults".

Quote
James
Peter Joseph says Christianity is a man made fraud and man is really god. "Mans creative ability is true divinity". youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYc7ZkloPIE&NR=1 For within the framework of the sacred science, and sweeping, non-rational "insights." Since the distinction between the logical and the mystical is, to begin with, artificial and man-made, an opportunity for transcending it can create an extremely intense feeling of truth. But the posture of unquestioning faith - both rationally and non-rationally derived - is not easy to sustain, especially if one discovers that the world of experience is not nearly as absolute as the sacred science claims it to be. culteducation.com

Science achieves things that centuries ago would of been perceived as the power of "God" or "Gods" or whatever. This is what he is getting at. Once again, because he is an atheist. Atheism, or atheistic beliefs does not make someone a cult leader, or any organization he is part of a cult.

Quote
James
VTV response: "because he is an atheist" So what if he is a atheist? He is planting the seeds for his “sacred science”.

You have failed utterly to demonstrate any proof of "sacred science" and are now engaged in repetition of failed logic again and again as I exposed previously.

Quote
James
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.

Zeitgeist is seeking economic gain. I have already provided evidence of this. I realize alot of places sell things and it doesnt make them a cult. But when you combine the sales with the leader "worship" and the various examples of though control being used, well then the picture of a "cult" emerges.

Actually, I debunked all of the things you said about "economic gain" and the comparison to how cults monetarily abuse people and how that is not happening in TZM. Purchasing any product from any TZM site, or donating anything IS NOT REQUIRED FOR MEMBERSHIP. And this does not in any way compare to cults that financially abuse people. As I pointed out and you of course ignored, in real cults they take control over all of your money. It is a requirement for being associated with that organization. TZM could be making far more money but instead gives virtually everything away. I also already debunked any notions of "worship". Your repeating already debunked points again and again hoping nobody will notice. Would be fun to have you on the radio sometime because it is much more obvious when someone does that in an audio conversation.

Quote
James
I have no personal grudge. I don’t need Rick Ross to label you a cult. In fact, based on the constant videos of your members, it is your movement who is in need of somebody to clear the cult tag. Here is a cache of audio/video demonstrating zeitgeist are trying to convince people they are not a cult: [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

The fact that as has already been shown you have failed to provide any actual evidence of the cult abuse Mr. Ross asked for is proof that we are not a cult. You, Prometheus and David Wish have all tried to sttreeeetcccchhh the meanings of the word "abuse" and "cult" to suit your own purposes but you have failed to provide any evidence at all. People trying to refute the cult notion is not proof that we are a cult either. This is an attempt to put us back in the catch 22. That is that I have heard that if we don't defend ourselves from the cult allegation that we are a cult, yet strangely IF WE DO try to defend ourselves from the cult allegation we are also a cult. Interesting how that works. Back to being burned at the stake by the girl in "The crucible".

Quote
James
The need for my repetition (if any) is because many of the criteria of cults intertwine. For example, the "demand for purity" includes elements of "thought control cliches" and "fear tactics". So naturally, I would need to repeat some things. If I was "spinning" data, i would not provide the links. If I provide the complete convos. it would be hard to identify where my examples take place so I include condensed versions. However, people can see if Im "spinning" when they go research the items in their full context, if they need I will supply via PM.

No. Your engagement in solid repetition is a tried and true method of propaganda. Your refusal to put any such "evidence" here for everyone both pro and anti TZM to see is "control of information" because as has already been demonstrated you know what will happen if you try those tactics where I can see them. In a PM conversation you would be free to spin things without any fear of me proving you are wrong. There is absolutely no reason you could not just share the links here. I find your suggestion that such information only be offered in PMs where you are free to put any spin on it you want highly dubious.

Quote
James
You are also going out of your way to discredit me. You say i have a track record of these discussions but in fact my evidence is valid and I can prove it.

Right, but only in PMs.

Quote
James
The last time we had a discussion, I exposed the motto for ZDAY (fresco's bday) as coming from a lucifer worshiping mason. Within minutes it was removed from the official website and we have not discussed since. Clearly, if i am bring invalid points, you would not have deleted the Zeitgeist Slogan from the page! [zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

Yes, this would be because of your fixation with luciferian and masonic conspiracy theories. I notice you avoided that sort of debate here. But anyone who looks closely at what you spam endlessly in every debate I have ever seen you put on FB your arguments are full of the same conspiracy theory stuff that you are trying to label TZM for. Convenient that you left all that off the table when you came here. The quote was:

"“What we have done for ourselves alone, dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal”."

You will also notice that it is labeled "Albert Pine" on the Z-day website. I contacted Peter when you brought that to my attention and showed him the information you had on it. He told me he had found the quote and liked it and it was apparently mis-labeled. This is an excerpt from that email conversation:

"in the end, it is good your pointed out that quote error though, which i just realized. It was noted as a Pine quote online - not Pike and Pike was, indeed a weirdo- so it is worth removing/correcting. A real Pike quote would never have been posted...so thanks for pointing that out."

So it was removed. Now I have to ask Mr. Kush, is it OK to believe in crazy masonic devil worshiping conspiracy theories or not? As you seemed pretty fixated on that stuff when you were posting amongst the conspiracy theorist crowd hoping to get negative attention for TZM. So which is it? Is that stuff loony or not? And if it is then when you do you seem so fixated on it? Do you endorse the idea that the Masonic Order is some sort of creepy secret society of evil people intent on taking over the world? The quote itself is not bad. And nothing in any of our material suggests you should worship Lucifer, or join the Masons. The argument you and I had endlessly was that you were trying to claim that the first Zeitgeist movie was an attempt to get people to worship Lucifer, and join the Masons. Don't try to deny it as I have the screenshots. I pointed out to you that the point of Z1 part 1, Peter's own opinion on the topic is from the point of atheism. As Peter personally feels all religion is BS. He doesn't suggest to people that they should worship Lucifer, or anything. He thinks all religion is BS. So if his goal was to get us all to worship Lucifer it would be rather counter productive. And what if he was suggesting we should be masons? (Which he doesn't.) Seen the Mason's do a lot of charity work in my community. Or are they some super secret cabal of people trying to take over the world? Please explain why it is relevant?

Quote
James
I am not trying to discredit you VTV, I am only demonstrating using direct statements and evidence from your group that shows much of the criteria of cults and mind control are reflective in your movement. Lets keep things civil and discuss the points, but please read why I am using this information. It is because the information fits within the context of:
#1 leadership
#2 control (thought termination clichés/coercive persuasion using fear tactics, fear tactics, information control/demand for purity/sacred science/ deceptive recruitment)
#3 gain

[/quote]

No. You have tried to paint a picture using the same tactics that the media and politicians intent on smearing a candidate or political party have been practicing for years.

Hi VTV -

"Filmmakers, authors, musicians etc commonly use alias's for their work. This does not prove anything "cult" like. The reason he did not attach his full name to his work is because of the kind of harassment I have already shown. Not to mention death threats from angry Christians for making an atheist movie, the harassment of his family that had nothing do with his project, etc. etc. etc."

Yes, fear and persecution are the reasons Achariya S. uses an alias. Unfortunately, cult leaders like Richard Kieninger also often use aliases, so it is one of the diagnostic criteria of cults. Sometimes cult leaders use aliases to hide where they got their tools (materials) from.

Cult leaders often use fears for recruitment. I know this personally because cult leaders keep on trying to hi-jack my own work on asteroid and comet impacts, and use it to their own ends.

While ZM now deals with fears of an ecological/economic collapse, that is not where ZM started, and its founder did nothing to pull the videos which led Mr. Loughner to try to assassinate Rep. Giffords.

(It is interesting to note that Richard Kieninger's followers in Stelle now focus on the "sustainability" aspects of their activities, rather than the fact that they started those activities because Richard convinced them that global catastrophes would occur. This helps them to deal with the cult abuse they suffered while under Richard's influence.)

In their use of the fears of economic/ecological collapse, there are several causitory explanations the leaders of ZM put forth which were anti-semetic, slanderous, and just plain nonsense. Hence the Arizona shootings to some degree - Loughner believed ZM's explanations, those explanations isolated him from his friends, and finally he acted on those explanations.

Many people have doubts about Christianity, and there is nothing wrong with that.
ZM leaders used Achariya S.'s works to address those doubts and to establish their own "scientific" basis.

But another diagnostic for a cult is "sacred science", and RBE satisfies that requirement.
ZM's claims to have a "scientific" basis meet another cult requirement - if you have THE scientific answer, who can doubt it?

VTV, yet another aspect of cult behavior is the need for validation, which is why you defend ZM here.

VTV, we're all concerned about the economy and ecology, and we all want a good family life, and we all hope to find a good spiritual path, but consider for just a moment if everything that ZM's leaders told you was a lie.

At the risk of being accused of making a plug here, you might want to read Steve Hassan's book "Combatting Mind Control". He found himself involved with the Moonies, and after getting out of their clutches, he shared his experiences and compared them with other peoples. He started in with them for good reasons.

VTV, you have just had your time wasted by ZM. Some people is Arizona have lost a whole lot more.

Perhaps you want to read his book, and see if anything in it reminds you of ZM.

E.P. Grondine
"Amazing Stories" - a biography of cult leader Richard Kieninger

(and just wondering when others stumble into Loughner's Cottonwood connection to the "occult".)

E.P. Grondine:

Not a very convincing argument.

I have repeatedly asked those claiming that TZM is a "cult" to provide examples of cult complaints from affected families, or form former members identifying the group as a cult and explaining their cult experience.

Typical family complaints would be that their loved ones have been isolated, don't communicate and become estranged due to the group.

Complaints from ex-members that have been exploited and abused by the leaders, i.e. the group does harm to its members.

So far TZM critics on this message board have offered nothing along these lines as cult evidence.

If you don't like TZM and have been offended by its message board and/or moderators that doesn't make the group a "cult."

Please offer some concrete evidence or admit you that have none and move on.

His comments in regular text, mine in bold.

"Filmmakers, authors, musicians etc commonly use alias's for their work. This does not prove anything "cult" like. The reason he did not attach his full name to his work is because of the kind of harassment I have already shown. Not to mention death threats from angry Christians for making an atheist movie, the harassment of his family that had nothing do with his project, etc. etc. etc."

Yes, fear and persecution are the reasons Achariya S. uses an alias. Unfortunately, cult leaders like Richard Kieninger also often use aliases, so it is one of the diagnostic criteria of cults. Sometimes cult leaders use aliases to hide where they got their tools (materials) from.

I think this is an extremely weak diagnostic tool. I guess we better investigate Stephen King who used to write books under the name Richard Bachman for cult activity. "sometimes" is not enough of a reason to smear someone's reputation all over the internet.

Cult leaders often use fears for recruitment. I know this personally because cult leaders keep on trying to hi-jack my own work on asteroid and comet impacts, and use it to their own ends.

While ZM now deals with fears of an ecological/economic collapse, that is not where ZM started, and its founder did nothing to pull the videos which led Mr. Loughner to try to assassinate Rep. Giffords.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO conclusive evidence that Mr. Loughner was in any way motivated by Zeitgeist to kill anyone. As I have already debunked several times. Some person who had not spoken to him for two years claims that he was into Zeitgeist. Yet there was nothing about Zeitgeist on his blogs or youtube accounts. And in fact all that was on his account was videos suggesting the gold standard, or personal currencies. Two things that the Zeitgeist movement does not suggest or support. I used the example earlier that the Virginia tech shooter claimed to of been inspired by a song by Megadeth. No reason he should have to delete that song. A crazy person claimed to of been influenced by "The Catcher in the Rye" when he shot John Lennon. No reason to ban that book either. There is NOTHING in any of the Zeitgeist films that suggests violence. And there is no sane person in the Zeitgeist Movement who would hate a congresswoman who was a serious advocate of alternative energy.

In their use of the fears of economic/ecological collapse, there are several causitory explanations the leaders of ZM put forth which were anti-semetic, slanderous, and just plain nonsense.

Any claims that TZM is anti-semetic are slanderous, and just plain nonsense. Jacque Fresco is Jewish. (sarcasm on) So we are the anti-semetic cult that "worships" a jewish person? (sarcasm off). We have an Israeli chapter as well. This is entirely bunk.

Hence the Arizona shootings to some degree - Loughner believed ZM's explanations, those explanations isolated him from his friends, and finally he acted on those explanations.

This is completely theory and conjecture on your part. Loughner's brain was swiss cheese. He used a ton of psychedelic drugs, and as I already pointed out, did not advocate any of the solutions that TZM does.

[www.youtube.com]

Many people have doubts about Christianity, and there is nothing wrong with that.
ZM leaders used Achariya S.'s works to address those doubts and to establish their own "scientific" basis.

WRONG. The only "leader" in the movement who values her work is Peter. TZM itself does not. And even Peter stated we are not going to push her work. Jacque Fresco DOES NOT endorse Z1. I don't even agree with her work.

But another diagnostic for a cult is "sacred science", and RBE satisfies that requirement.
ZM's claims to have a "scientific" basis meet another cult requirement - if you have THE scientific answer, who can doubt it?

So does every organization that values the scientific method fall into the designation of "cult" with "sacred science"? TZM/TVP advocates the scientific method for human concern. What can be proven using peer review and data is real. What we cannot prove, is not. And if we later prove a previous conclusion wrong, we move to that as the accepted understanding. This is not something superstition or politics can offer mankind. Both institutions tend to uphold what is in their best interest to maintain power, and are not in any way inclined to admit when they are wrong.


VTV, yet another aspect of cult behavior is the need for validation, which is why you defend ZM here.

Here we go again. If TZM refuses to defend itself, it must be a cult. If it does defend itself, it must be a cult. "BURN THE WITCH! SHE FLOATED WHEN WE HOG TIED HER AND THREW HER IN THE LAKE!" (or, she didn't float and drowned...damn..well at least we know her soul is with God...)"

VTV, we're all concerned about the economy and ecology, and we all want a good family life, and we all hope to find a good spiritual path, but consider for just a moment if everything that ZM's leaders told you was a lie.

I have considered that. I actually you know, -gasp- went to the source and met with Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows. Visited the Venus Project in person. Have spoken with Peter Joseph for hours and hours. I did all of my own investigating and my own searching. I didn't let obscure blogs that have no concern for quality of information either for or against TZM convince me. I went and looked for myself.

VTV, you have just had your time wasted by ZM. Some people is Arizona have lost a whole lot more.

And you have just made a highly inappropriate use of a tragedy. Without doing any real research. I feel it is highly disrespectful of you to do this not just to TZM, but to the people who actually suffered. Lets ban Megadeth from the radio, and burn every copy of "A catcher in the rye".

(and just wondering when others stumble into Loughner's Cottonwood connection to the "occult".)

Yeah, that actually further disproves any theories about Loughner being influenced by Zeitgeist, considering that superstition is not thought of very highly in the movement. Anyone suggesting that they should be doing dark rituals in their back yard would be a laughing stock in most TZM circles.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2011 04:31AM by VTV.