Shakti:

Thanks for putting things into perspective and offering meaningful context.

Yes. People are banned from this message board, and it's not "abuse." They simply broke the stated rules.

Cult abuse ranges in degree, including everything from free labor and financial exploitation to medical neglect and violence.

But it doesn't seem that meaningful to include banning people from a message board.

I see the points you are both making and the direction. I am having a harder time with the clarity, as I was personally involved.

As everyone that has followed this thread knows, the reason I perused the forum issue was that a comment of an anonymous moderator was proven to be deceptive. It had nothing to do with being banned or just a general inflammatory post being deleted.

I would have to say to others that if you see a situation, any situation, where people are lying and being deceptive within a group of people and those people have all the authority and power, it is time to leave that group. You do not need to post information, confront them, or prove your point. Just leave. It is okay if all you take from it is the simple truth that you know. Whatever your reasons or concerns are, be cautious, ask questions, and be ready to walk away instantly if something does not agree with your moral compass. If you were lucky enough to get proof of wrong doing, you can always post it here.

Quote
shakti
Posted this in other thread, but I think it belongs here as well:

David,

While I respect your opinion of Zeitgeist and AGREE with you on most points, I would advise dropping the "banning me is a form of abuse" line of argument. It is not helping OUR position and is helping TZM. It pains me to say that, but it is true. Any group running a message board has the right to ban whoever they want. Rick Ross can and does. TZM can and do. While it may say plenty about their lack of interest in transparency and full disclosure, it is their right. They are not the government, therefore notions of "free speech" simply don't apply.

There are many, MANY points on which to criticize TZM, particularly their ties to things like Triodos Bank, Larouche, and anti-semitic conspiracy theories. Those are the points to be hammering them on, not accusing them of "abuse for banning me from their forum". Using a term like "abuse" for banning you not only gives them some high ground to argue from (notice VTV is far more interested in that point, which he can WIN points on, than addressing ties to Larouche, for example), but it also undermines the various levels of "abuse" that happen in cult situations.

Giving a kid LSD, then stabbing them and locking them in a closet (Anne Hamilton-Byrne) is ABUSE. Banning someone from an internet forum simply does not rise to that standard.

sincerely,
Shakti

I am deeply involved in the Zeitgeist movement at the top level. And we have no official involvement with the Tridoos Bank, anyone named Larouche, and I have already explained the issue about anti-semetism (Which there is none) and the fact that belief in or spreading the belief of conspiracy theories in NO WAY suggested as part of participation in this movement. Please tell me where in the Orientation guide there is any mention of any of the above?

What individual members or even groups of members get involved in is up to them. But our organization itself has no involvement with any of the entities you described. I didn't fail to address this. I thought it was silly to start with. As one of the editors of the newsletter, one of the global administrators of the website, and someone who speaks to all of the major coordinators, including frequent conversations with Peter Joseph, and Jacque Fresco this is the first I have ever heard of any "connection" implied much less proven of any such connection.

I anxiously await your evidence.

One more thing. The only reason I emphasized the issues of forum moderation being listed as "abuse" and that the concept of "anonymous moderators" making us a cult AUTOMATICALLY is because that was the foundation of both David and Prometheus's arguments.

UPDATE: Upon investigating the information here about the Tridos bank I sent the link to Roxanne Meadows and will give you her reply. I am not seeing anything insidious there.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2011 05:33AM by VTV.

One more thing. The only reason I emphasized the issues of forum moderation being listed as "abuse" and that the concept of "anonymous moderators" making us a cult AUTOMATICALLY is because that was the foundation of both David and Prometheus's arguments.

Quote
corboy
My my.

Googled Larouche and Zeitgeist Movement. Look what comes up.

[www.google.com]

First link

"LaRouche PAC - Lyndon LaRouche 1 Year, 3 Months ago Karma: 4
Here is the link to Lyndon LaRouche's web site that I mentioned at the gathering. larouchepac.com/

I recommend sitting through some of his 3 hour long web casts, as well as watching some of the movies he has made to spread awareness. Here are some links to what I found worth watching.

LaRouche Webcast: The Program for World-Economic Recovery

Lyndon LaRouche Webcast
From Washington, D.C.
October 1, 2008

larouchepac.com/news/2008/10/01/larouche...e-ever-big-four.html

The New Dark Age

larouchepac.com/node/11851


1932

larouchepac.com/lpactv?nid=9166

I have watched other very informative things on their web site, but can't remember exactly which ones, but I'm sure if you enjoy the ones I've listed here, you will find more on their web site on your own.

When I look at what is currently going on in the world, and the Zeitgeist Movement logically, I realize that the direction that Lyndon LaRouche is trying to get us to go now, is probably the most logical. That of course does not mean that I don't see the Zeitgeist Movements goal as our final destination, but I am aware of the obstacles in our path, and always looking for tools and ways to get around or avoid those obstacles. Lyndon LaRouche presents a path to help us get beyond our current obstacle. Only then, will we be able to continue on our way to a resource based economy.

Doctors don't operate on a patient until they are healthy enough to survive the operation, unless it is a matter of life or death. Why should we be any different. We are not yet in a life or death situation, so why should we be trying to make this operation to transform from our current society, before we get ourselves healthy enough to survive the operation? Lyndon LaRouche presents a way to make us strong enough to survive the operation. It's logical, and probably has the best chances for success. Once we are healthy, the operation will become less dangerous, more obvious and easier for people to accept.

I can't say that I totally agree with some of the tactics that Lyndon LaRouche uses, but I accept that he knows his stuff, and he is probably just a bitter old man, who has been fighting this battle his whole life. So, if he wants to call a nazi a nazi, so be it. I'm am extremely proud and grateful to know he is on our side!
MichaelP (User)

Strength in Numbers!

Posts: 296
[chapters.thezeitgeistmovement.com]

and

Lyndon LaRouche to debate with Jacque Fresco! 1 Year, 4 Months ago
I would love to see this headline, or topic post for real.

Even though most people in this movement that I have mentioned my support of Lyndon LaRouche to, have taken the stance that he is going the wrong direction, therefore we shouldn't support him, I still think he is a very valuable asset to our cause, and we should use every tool that he provides us. Not only to further the goals of TZM, but to help us prepare for total annihilation that we currently face. He seems to really know his stuff, and is very aware of what is currently going on in the government, not only here in the United States, but other governments around the world as well.

The thing that Jacque Fresco and Lyndon LaRouche have in common, is that they are really the only two people that have put forth a reasonable solution for a better future. Of course, I believe Lyndon is missing the point that Jacque makes about technological unemployment, but his conviction to doing the right thing and regaining control of our country, has earned my respect for his ideas. Since these two respectable men are really the only two that have reasonable suggestions, I would love to see a debate between them. Not to decide who is right or wrong, but to decide what is the best solution for the future, that we might actually succeed with.

The ideas of TZM are the future, but they may not be the immediate future. I'm having a hard time believing that people will throw away everything they know, to support something as far fetched as TZM. People like Lyndon LaRouche may be able to bridge that gap, between where we are right now, and where we are headed in the future of humanity. What LaRouche proposes would remove some of the insanity that many live in, allowing them to open their minds and explore new ideas, which will lead to a resource based economy.

What is important right now, is waking people up to the reality and dangers that we face right now. The end of the world as we know it, could be only days or weeks away. I am a strong believer in TZM, and will always strive to make it a reality, but right now my gut is telling me to be more concerned about my health and well being, than to focus too much on the resourced based economy.

When I ride motorcycles in large groups, I am always aware of what is going on at the head of the pack, so I can be prepared for what is to come, but at the same time, I am more concerned about what is going on with the bike directly in front of me. People in this movement need to take that kind of approach, right now, more than ever. Keep your faith that the movement is continuing in the right direction, but at this time, we need to be more concerned about the dangers that are right in front of us, and be less concerned about what is going on up front.

The time that Jacque and others have talked about, could be only days away. Do you think we have enough influence right now to take control in the event of the collapse? I don't think so. But, Lyndon LaRouche may have enough influence to make people wake up and make the changes that need to be made to avoid this massive collision that is about to take place.

I strongly urge everyone to add larouchepac.com/ to their favorites, and visit his site daily, for real news updates about our current crisis. His web casts are powerful tools to use as well. There are also several well made documentaries that will help inform people of the enemy and crisis we face. The New Dark Age - larouchepac.com/node/11851

I believe it's only a matter of time before Mr. LaRouche sees the importance of the resource based economy, and starts to support our cause. Until then, we should get behind him, and help ensure his message is heard. The resource based economy is the most important thing to humanity, but right now the most important thing is to survive, so we can make the RBE a reality. I don't see how we can survive, if we don't follow Lyndon LaRouche, to get us to the next level we need to reach.

Don't lose focus of the head of the pack, but more importantly, don't take your eyes off of what is going on right in front of you!

[www.thezeitgeistmovement.com]


These were the first two in a google search on larouche and zeitgeist

"

[www.google.com]

About 2,740 results (0.17 seconds)
Search ResultsLaRouche PAC - Lyndon LaRouche - Zeitgeist Washington ChapterNov 27, 2009 ... The Zeitgeist Movement - Washington State Chapter. LaRouche PAC - Lyndon LaRouche - Main Forum - Chapter Discussions - Zeitgeist Washington ...
chapters.thezeitgeistmovement.com/wa/index.php?...5... - CachedLyndon LaRouche to debate with Jacque Fresco! - The Zeitgeist MovementThe Zeitgeist Movement. Lyndon LaRouche to debate with Jacque Fresco! (1/1 ...
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?... - CachedLyndon LaRouche - The Zeitgeist Movement3 posts - 3 authors
The Zeitgeist Movement. Lyndon LaRouche (1/1) - Public Forum in English ...
[thezeitgeistmovement.com]?... - CachedGet more discussion results
Lyndon Larouche - The Zeitgeist Movement2 posts - 2 authors
The Zeitgeist Movement. Lyndon Larouche (1/1) - Public Forum in English ...
thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option... - CachedShow more results from thezeitgeistmovement.comGet more discussion results
Zeitgeist ExposedMar 20, 2010 ... The Case of Jeremiah Duggan, and the truth about Lyndon LaRouche ..... I am a member of the Zeitgeist movement but feel your ideas to some ...
thethirdestate.net/2010/03/zeitgeist-exposed/ - United Kingdom - CachedSpace for discussion on the "Zeitgeist" movement | "International ...3 posts - Last post: Feb 7, 2010
Some of the key figures in the Zeitgeist movement include Lyndon LaRouche who was (allegedly - don't sue) involved in the racist murder of ...
www.emancipating-education-for-all.org/discussion_zeitgeist_movement - CachedGet more discussion results
critique of the Zeitgeist movie | FacebookA Larouche Youth Movement recruiter? Zeitgeist is sort of like where atheism turns ..... I think that's what the film and the Zeitgeist Movement tries to ...
www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2510875735&topic... - Cached - SimilarDailymotion - 12.03.09 LaRouche Webcast Excerpt: Break the British ...Nov 12, 2009 ... [www.larouchepac.com] -- From Q and A of Lyndon LaRouche's ... The Zeitgeist Movement: Orientation Presentation by Peter Joseph, ...
www.dailymotion.com › home › news & politics › videos - CachedDailymotion - 11.11.09 LaRouche Webcast Question: The Rold of Gold ...Nov 20, 2009 ... LaRouche answers someone asking what the role of gold. ...
www.dailymotion.com › home › news & politics › videos - CachedShow more results from dailymotion.comHD — LaRouche Webcast: December 3, 2009 – “The Real Change Is ...16 posts - 13 authors - Last post: Sep 8, 2010
What is the LaRouche Movements view on The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project although the methods are different they seem to share ...
bankruptcyscotland.com/hd-larouche-webcast-december-3-2009-the-real- change-is-coming.html - Cached

Interesting that when your quoting this you leave out the fact that nobody responded to this thread. And that in the very begining he states that the majority of people he has talked to about this from TZM feel LaRouche is going in the wrong direction.

There is no connection. A few members showed interest in some of his work.

Zeitgeist Movement has been described as the activist and communications arm of the Venus Project.

Triodos is listed as assisting the Venus Project.

Ergo, ZM is the activist and communitions arm of an entity being assisted by Triodos Bank, itself rooted in a secretive spin off of Theosophy called Anthroposophy, whose founder, Rudolf Steiner, had his own wrap around vision of a total society, notions about ideal architecture, and his own theories of money and economy.

Yawn.

[www.thevenusproject.com]

From the Venus Project page

"THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT started in late 2008, The Zeitgeist Movement exists fundamentally as the communication and activist arm of the organization called THE VENUS PROJECT. In some ways it could be categorized as a "Sustainability Movement", in part. The basic pursuit of The Movement is to begin a transition into a new, sustainable social design called a “Resource-Based Economy”. This term was first coined by Jacque Fresco of the Venus Project and refers to an economic structure based exclusively on strategic resource management, as the starting point for all decisions.

(Jorge Freso, recognized as an honorary guide by the Raelians)

[raelianews.org]


[www.google.com]

The current operations of The Movement include Regional Chapters, Teams and Team Specific Projects.
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

By Peter Joseph, founder of The Zeitgeist Movement
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Triodos Bank is listed as assisting a variety of businesses including Venus Project

Triodos, originally Mercury Provident Bank was rooted in Anthroposopy, a spin off of Theosophy.

[wedreambusiness.org]

And if you look at the We Dream Business site, Triodos assists a variety of ventures including Venus Project.

--History of Triodos Bank



[www.google.com]



Videos for The Venus Project

Jacque Fresco on ZDAY 2010
Roxanne Meadows on ZDAY 2010 (part 1)
Roxanne Meadows on ZDAY 2010 (part 2)
Jacque Fresco NZ Television Interview
London Lecture Part 1
London Lecture Part 2
Designing the Future (From Zday 2009)
What is The Venus Project?
The Venus Project on the Discovery Channel
The Venus Project on Fox News 7 (2009) - MORE
Future by Design trailer by William Gazecki
Partial Larry King Interview--(Corboy note: The Larry King interview is listed as 'partial')

Movies and Videos by Peter Joseph

Zeitgeist, The Movie
Zeitgeist: Addendum
Zeitgeist - Imagine
Social Pathology
Where Are We Going? (part 1)
Where Are We Going? (part 2)
Where Are We Now?



Videos from Douglas Mallette

Awakening (part 1)
Awakening (part 2)
Awakening (part 3)
Awakening (part 4)
Our Technical Reality (part 1)
Our Technical Reality (part 2)
Our Technical Reality (part 3)
Our Technical Reality (part 4)
Our Technical Reality (part 5)
Our Technical Reality (part 6)



Want to help with subtitles?
Visit:ZM Translation Project
Download DVD HERE "

Google results for Triodos and Anthroposophy

[www.google.com]

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
---------------------------

A profile of Triodos Bank
This article by Andrew Bibby, in a slightly different form, was first published in the Observer, 2004


The specialist bank well known for its pioneering work in developing ethical investments in Britain is currently finding itself forced to defend its reputation in a High Court action brought by a former business customer. [update below]

Triodos Bank has built up a track record for its role as banker for a range of social and community-based ventures and for its work in developing the idea of ‘ethical' share issues. It is responsible for the technical and fulfilment aspects of the current Café Direct issue, launched by the fair trade company in February 2004 and already half way to its £5m target. Café Direct shares will be tradeable on the Ethex (Ethical Exchange), another innovative recent Triodos initiative.

Triodos describes itself as a bank which lends only to organisations that ‘create social, environmental and cultural value', and its latest newsletter reinforces its progressive credentials with, among other things, a discussion of sustainable farming, a critique of current world trade rules and publicity for a community-controlled village shop. It is unfortunate for the bank, therefore, that it has a dissatisfied customer prepared to confront it in the High Court. The civil case pitting property developer Ashley Dobbs against the bank, which has been stewing for several years, finally began at the High Court on March 16 this year (2004).

The case concerns the Crickhowell ‘televillage', an innovative development of 39 homes in this south Wales town which was designed to attract teleworking pioneers. Ashley Dobbs, now in his forties, began property developing in his early 20s before, among other things, following up interests as an underwater photographer and documentary film-maker. He was an early telework enthusiast and helped found what is now the Telework Association.

Dobbs' dispute with Triodos hinges on the bank's decision to withdraw support for the Crickhowell venture, pushing his company Acorn Televillages into receivership in 2000. He claims that, despite some problems with contractors, the development was fundamentally profitable and that the Acorn assets subsequently sold off by the receivers for £2.1m have since been shown to have been worth much more. He also alleges that Triodos actively worked in the period before receivership to undermine his position. He is representing himself in the High Court in the £18m case, which also has Acorn's two administrative receivers as defendants.

Dobbs says he chose Triodos as banker because he identified with its environmental principles. His views have changed. For Triodos, he says, “I would place an ‘u' and an ‘n' before the word ethical.”

Triodos is strongly contesting his case. “We don't accept the claims he's making. We're confident we have a good case and that the Court will recognise this,” says Charles Middleton, Triodos UK's managing director. The bank says that it will make a full statement at the end of the case.

The Ashley Dobbs case relates to decisions taken by an earlier management team at the bank. However, the current attention will inevitably focus attention on Triodos's background. The bank's British office is in a fine old building overlooking Clifton Downs in Bristol but Triodos has its head office in the Netherlands and is regulated by the Dutch central bank. Triodos also operates in Belgium and Spain.

Triodos's roots (like the UK bank Mercury Provident which it took over in 1995) are in the anthroposophy movement. The term refers to the ideas of the Austrian spiritualist thinker Rudolf Steiner who died in 1925 and whose interests included education, ‘biodynamic' agriculture, eurythmy (movement as art) and therapeutic medicine. Triodos Bank's statutes committed it to anthroposophical principles until 1999 when this formal link was dropped, and in recent years the bank under its current head Peter Blom has embarked on a policy of reaching out beyond Steiner adherents and of broadening its appeal. Nevertheless Triodos's origins are reflected in the fact that most of the Dutch directors come from within anthroposophy, and Triodos continues to be the banker for many Steiner-inspired projects.

The bank describes itself as a ‘transparent bank' and spells out in detail all the UK ventures in which the bank has given overdrafts or loans in a sixteen-page brochure ‘Inspiring Change'. However Triodos has to overcome something of a problem of transparency in its own structure. Behind the single Triodos brand is a parallel legal structure in the Netherlands: Triodos Bank NV is legally separate from Triodos Holding NV, which operates as an international fund manager, provides microcredit in developing countries, and runs a significant venture capital operation in the Netherlands. The two companies are ultimately both controlled by Foundations, with strong roots in anthroposophy and with overlapping membership. The Bank's Foundation issues dividend-earning but non-voting ‘depository receipts' which are held partly by private investors but also by a number of Dutch commercial companies.

Charles Middleton's appointment as head of Triodos in Britain in 2003 followed a managerial hiatus. Glen Saunders, UK managing director at the time of the Crickhowell affair, has since left the bank and his successor Mark Hayes (a well-respected figure who previously set up Shared Interest, the ethical savings co-operative) stayed only a few months before parting company after a disagreement, unspecified but not believed linked to the Ashley Dobbs case.

Hayes's departure was more likely to have been linked to his discomfort with another legacy issue from the early days of Triodos's operation in Britain, the treatment of former Mercury Provident investors. About 560 people had taken advantage of two early ‘ethical' share issues to invest a total of about £1.3m in the British bank. At the time of the 1995 takeover they were given replacement stock in a new subsidiary Triodos Stockholding plc, with an initial pledge that the stock value would be tied to the parent bank's own share value. Unfortunately this arrangement failed to allow adequately for UK/Dutch exchange rate movements, so that by 2001 Triodos Stockholding found itself technically insolvent. As a consequence, ex-Mercury Provident shareholders were asked to agree to a variation in the terms of their stock, reducing the value of their investment by 16%-20%. It meant that £50 originally invested in Mercury Provident became converted in 2003 into Triodos stock worth about £42.

Charles Middleton, who has brought in several new senior managers for the UK bank, will no doubt be wanting to look to the future rather than dwelling on past problems. He comes from a banking background, having joined the bank from Barclays where he held senior management positions for the bank in Africa, the Caribbean and India. He speaks with obvious passion of the potential for developing the bank's distinctive values in Britain, where it currently has about 23,000 account holders and about 550 borrowers. Triodos's next event is an annual meeting for investors, borrowers and friends next month [Apr 2004], when a range of invited speakers will be exploring ‘how values-driven businesses and organisations can reach wider audiences without compromising their principles'. In this respect, Triodos's efforts to reconcile its role as a profit-generating commercial business with its desire to encourage an ethical approach to money certainly makes it a fascinating case study in its own right.

UPDATE APRIL 2004

The recent High Court case between Triodos, the Bristol-based ethically minded bank, and Crickhowell televillage developer Ashley Dobbs has ended with the judge finding in the bank's favour.

Triodos, who acted as banker for the innovative Crickhowell development, had been criticised by Mr Dobbs after his company, Acorn Televillages, had been forced into receivership. But the High Court judgment exonerates Triodos's actions and those of its senior management at the time. In his judgment, Mr Justice Lewison describes Mr Dobbs as a ‘man of vision' who nevertheless lacked the necessary financial management skills for the project. Triodos, he says, had acted with ‘sympathy and forbearance' towards Acorn.

The Judge did find Triodos technically liable for a breach of its responsibilities towards remedying snags on the estate, although he suggested that this merited only nominal damages of £2. Ashley Dobbs, who has the right to further legal action in this respect, describes the judgment as “disappointing” and says that he is considering his next steps.

Update, Dec 2009. At the court of appeal in 2005, the appeal judges clarified the law in relation to bank guarantees (such as Ashley Dobbs had offered Triodos), in situations where loan agreements were subsequently subject to amendment or revision.



Return to my home page

Corboy:

Have you come across anything that specifically denotes destructive "cult" or "cult-like" behavior concerning the Zeitgeist Movement?

Have there been complaints from families regarding children caught up in the movement and exhibiting cult-like behavior?

Are there specific complaints associated with the movement regarding "abuse"?

For example there are plenty of "cult" complaints about the LaRouche group.

See [www.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2011 08:15AM by rrmoderator.

Not that I am aware of.

Quote

Corboy:

Have you come across anything that specifically denotes destructive "cult" or "cult-like" behavior concerning the Zeitgeist Movement?

Have there been complaints from families regarding children caught up in the movement and exhibiting cult-like behavior?

Are there specific complaints associated with the movement regarding "abuse"?

Quote
corboy
Not that I am aware of.

Quote

Corboy:

Have you come across anything that specifically denotes destructive "cult" or "cult-like" behavior concerning the Zeitgeist Movement?

Have there been complaints from families regarding children caught up in the movement and exhibiting cult-like behavior?

Are there specific complaints associated with the movement regarding "abuse"?

If the Tridos bank is doing something negative, that does not automatically mean that the Venus Project is in any way involved in whatever it is that bank is doing. You said yourself that there were several businesses involved with it. Does that mean they are all cults as well? (I will have to be sure to tell Starbucks they are a cult...)

I think Mr. Ross's point is important. Because this whole thing seems like one big non-sequitur. If you want to disagree with TZM politically that's your choice, but that does not make it a cult.

VTV:

You say, "If you want to disagree with TZM politically that's your choice, but that does not make it a cult."

Fair enough.

There are no specific "cult" complaints about TZM that have come to my attention, other than the claims being made at this message board by people banned from your discussion board.

But the LaRouche group, Waldorf Schools and the Raelians have been called "cults."

LaRouche [www.culteducation.com]

Waldorf Schools [www.culteducation.com]

Raelians [www.culteducation.com]

TZM seems to be an environment where such groups are at times given some credibility and conspiracy theories also appear to be popular among TMZ enthusiasts.

However, being on the fringe politically or otherwise and not mainstream doesn't make TZM a "cult" per Lifton's criteria.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2011 10:10PM by rrmoderator.