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corboy
There are Jewish Holocaust/Shoah Denialists, so Israeli Jews are probably vulnerable to cultic milieu stuff as well.

Anti Zionist Jews greeted Holocaust deniar in New York

Ahmadinejad Greeted by Anti-Zionist Jews in New York

[www.youtube.com]

[www.thedailyshow.com]

so..some Jews who had an anti Zionist stance were willing to attend a Holocaust denial conference.

So..if such mental contortions are possible, one can imagine a ZM chapter in Israel

[www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com];

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

The David Cole Video. A young Jewish holocaust denier, posing as a believer, puts some hard questions to the senior curator of the Auschwitz State Museum. After making this video, a "hit" was put out on Cole, and a reward for information on his whereabouts was issued by Irv Rubin (who years later, was arrested by the FBI for planning to kill a Lebanese-American Congressman.) Fearing assassination, Cole went into hiding. He never surfaced again publicly. (1992, 52 minutes)
"

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VTV
1. One of the reasons for the confusion over what our organization is is because we state that we are not a "political movement". But in practice we are a political activist organization in the same context as Green Peace, Veterans for Peace, etc. We advocate an economic model designed for ecological sustainability. Not a religion, superstition, etc. (In fact a lot of our members are atheists.) We suggest people use the scientific method to test ways of fixing the world's problems rather then relying on politics or superstition.

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VTV
2. Activity as far as membership in TZM consists of signing up for a mailing list. Optionally chatting on forums or using voice chat. (The vast majority of people signed up for the newsletter and mailing list do not do this.). We attend public events to try and engage in dialog about our ideas in the same way other activist groups do. Some groups of people have meetings in person to talk about this stuff but they are not secret cabal meetings in forests or something. In fact most of them are in public places like libraries and such, again like most activist groups. If someone "leaves" the group it would actually probably go completely unnoticed. If someone was friends with a given member they might inquire as to why they didn't see their friend at a meeting but there is no protocol suggested or even implied that we would go track people down and try to guilt trip them into attending meetings again. And removing yourself from our email list is as easy as it is for any other activist organization.

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VTV
3. Peter Joseph does not paste his personal information and his financial records everywhere. And while I can understand why this is often a concern with a given organization, there are no "membership dues". He gives away all of his films on the internet for free, including files to allow you to make your own DVDs. If people buy DVDs from him it's generally because they don't know how to burn them themselves. He could easily charge $20 for these and he only asks for $5. He sells T-shirts but he is not making a killing on them. And in fact spends a lot more money on this activism then he ever gets out of it. To say nothing for the hours of his time he puts into making activist films. There are hundreds of indy film makers who do the same, but make a hell of a lot more money then he is. Michael Moore comes to mind.

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VTV
4. There is no "abuse" going on. I have challenged Mr. Wish to produce any sort of evidence of "abuse". He seems really fixated on our internet forums and not much else. He uses a lot of language like insinuating that people could die, get hurt, or their "blood" could be on someone's hands and to be blunt, this is all really silly. The vast majority of the interaction that people have in the Zeitgeist movement goes on in public places or on the internet. Nobody is being molested, sexually harassed, intimidated, or mentally abused. And when he came to our forums and made that broad and vague accusation of "abuse" even users who are critical of our moderation team because they are anarchists philosophically and wish we didn't have moderators still came forward and told him he was being unreasonable.

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VTV
In conclusion:
I would hope that the people who frequent this forum while being concerned about cults would also be concerned about the kind of damage you can do to well meaning organizations by labeling them cults too quickly.

I am not concerned about the ZM cult. I am only concerned about the abuse of people therein. People come first. Not the group agenda.

This page is an example of the kind of childish cyber-bullying i am talking about. While I do feel we need to be concerned about people being hijacked into "cults". I would also caution people to be equally concerned that they might also be hijacked in the lynching of innocent organizations that just angered someone who is behaving petty who might use your efforts for their own amusement. I keep thinking of "the crucible" and how in Salem a girl who felt scorned used the Christian religion to get back at her "enemies".

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james kush
The Zeitgeist has been removed by the largest social network in europe because the anti-semite accusations warranted removal:
[lotus-online.de]
[thezeitgeistmovement.com]

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VTV uses the example of ONE person posting a video with his child online in a attempt to discredit all critics and create his own personal zeitgeist movement blacklist:
[i51.tinypic.com]

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No doubt if the people is this forum upset VTV he will add you to his facebook ban list that has already resulted in the deletion of at least 8 facebook accounts. He added everybody from the conspiracy science forums.

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In regards to Jared Loughner, the amusing part is how the movement reacted:
[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]


[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

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Also, dangerous signs do exist within this movement. VTV (official spokesman for the venus project)agreed that people should be "annihilated" if they attack one of their test city facilities ("ABSOLUTELY" - VTV). Here is the audio along with another Zeitgeist "lead technician" named Douglas mallette discussing murdering people in third world nations for attacking a "facility"
[www.youtube.com]

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Who is douglas Mallette?
[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

In that video, douglas Mallette prepares venus project/zeitgeist members for attacks/violence, here is a clip:
[www.youtube.com]

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No matter what evidence you present to them, they will deny to the end, any ties they have with any controversial elements of the movement, heres a example:
[www.youtube.com]

These guys are in all sorts of denial, intervention by somebody who is a expert in cults is much needed. They are begging to be proven a cult, look at their various youtube requests:
[zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com]

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DavidWish

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You say you, "use the scientific method", but that does not mean a thing here. Many cults base ideas on scientific methods. It is not the issue being discussed here. If you are trying to say that because ZM uses science it cannot be a cult, then clearly it is indicated that you should consult someone skilled at deprogramming, if you want help.

Please first of all give me the examples of "many" cults that use ideas based on the scientific method. As that sounds like an invented statistic. Secondly, I didn't put that quote about our proposals here in regards to using science as an example of how we supposedly are not a "cult". I put it there to explain what we actually were. One thing cults have is religious beliefs. Which we don't. As I explained earlier. The Zeitgeist movement is an activist movement promoting the use of the scientific method to reach rational decisions about how to proceed to solve mankind's problems rather then politics or superstition.

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You say, "Optionally chatting on forums", but again, it doesn't hold up. It is controlled. I would not call posting on the ZM forums chatting. It is a very "secretly controlled and managed" dialogue.

This forum is also controlled. So are the majority of forums. The reason I said "optionally chatting on forums" is that nobody is coerced or compelled to participate in the forum or the voice chat. If they don't like the rules used there they don't have to use them. This is another reason your cult theory kind of falls on it's ear. Banning people who violate forum rules is general practice.

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I hope he has some money left to pay the doctor bills.

What doctor bills?

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Actually, I say there was abuse of me, and pointed out what it was previously on this thread. You and Gaby seem to casually read right over it or you never address the actual issue. You say, "I have challenged Mr. Wish to produce any sort of evidence of "abuse". " The reality is that the Google cache of the thread is incomplete. If there is evidence lacking, talk to your forum moderators. It was one of them that were caught red handed accusing me of something they had actually done. I would call that deception and abuse, because my ip was banned for pointing out the anonymous moderator had chosen to try and mislead others, out of the actual conversation concerning ZM being a cult, with deception. The deletion of the post discussing cultist behavior of ZM, was removed by, ZM. When wrongful behavior is not evenly addressed and tilted towards those in the position of power and direction, it's abusive.

Again, as I pointed out earlier. There are plenty of forums wherein the moderator accounts are not clearly identified. And I explained why we have anonymous moderators. You were not abused. I have seen all of the conversation. After they tried to reason with you for a few pages you continually spammed the same already refuted stuff over and over again. The forum is for members talking about stuff going on in the movement. See previous analogy of someone's house being the area where an event is hosted and asking you to leave. Seriously man, getting banned from a forum is not "cult abuse". It's disgusting to me that you would try to equate you getting banned from a forum to the kind of abuse that is actually met out in cults.

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I am not concerned about the ZM cult. I am only concerned about the abuse of people therein. People come first. Not the group agenda.

And you have yet to prove any abuse. Banning people from a forum is not abuse. A moderator already intervened in this thread once and I don't know who they are. Nor are their financial records posted everywhere. Does that mean he was abusing me and that this place is a cult?

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You ask for proof, and it was provided, and did Gaby. It was provided in better detail for gaby, and you read right over it and asked the same thing. I realize people do not remember everything they read and this thread is long. The problem here is that above, in your post, you ask for proof. Then you make a conclusion, without waiting on the facts or the answer, that you somehow missed previously posted. That is what being abusive is.
Anti-cult literature implies that people who do not listen to the other side regarding a cult issue and make judgments without proofs, and try to divert away from the core issue, are cultist abusers. I have seen this before. Lie, falsely accuse others and place blame on them, and then play the victim card. It is not going to work on me and a lot of other people. We are growing up. We have better education and experience now.

I have read the entire thread. I also read the entire thread that was on the Zeitgeist movement page. You still have not provided proof of any abuse. You are insinuating that being banned from a privately owned forum means members of the Zeitgeist movement are being abused. I am sorry but that is just silly. I also pointed out that participation in that forum is as voluntary as participation in this one. And that the vast majority of the people in this activist movement don't even use the forums or the voice chat. So your criteria for it being some sort of cult tool is weak at best.

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Again, I found your moderators to be personally abusive when they deleted the thread, only after it was proven that an act of deception was taking place. Your issue is with them, not me, if you need more facts.

Seriously man. Give me a break. That is just ridiculous.

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Talking about abusive groups is no childish thing.

Yes I know. Which is why I find it despicable that you are equating being moderated on a forum is proof of "cult abuse".

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It takes time and effort to try and bring light to light these issues. Personal attacks are merely a tool abusive cultist groups use to try and silence opposition. It is not a healthy way to find the reasons we disagree. We can all respond slightly off-base when attacked with a lack of reason, however, you were not personally attacked, and so you really have no justification for attacking anyone here. If you are one of the people that made the bad choices responsible for this abuse, I simply have problem with your choices, not you.

Again, your entire claim that we were a cult was based on the fact that we have anonymous moderators, and that people in the movement do not paste their personal information everywhere. I have given evidence for why these things are practiced.

Please provide evidence of ACTUAL abuse that cults are known for. As I said earlier. When people talked about the Branch Davidians, they didn't talk about their message board where the evil moderators banned people who were attacking people on their forum and actively breaking rules of a forum they agreed to follow when they joined them.

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Hello,

we deleted your group "ZG-revolution.de". So called ZG groups are no longer accepted in studiVZ. Anyhow, we want to give you the reason for our action. It is not our intension to supress alternative opinions or news, but we see with worries the developement of new theories that have been pushed, for example by the ZG movies.

The idea of gray eminences, elites or secret societies that control politics from behind the curtain is not new. The ZG movies extend these ideas to the economic system.

And here the circle of the history of conspiracy theories closes: latent antisemitism, which shines through many of the formulated theories. For example the idea of the bad, grupping capital, which is responsible for the financial crisis and also patronage and similar means to take influence into world politic to control and guide them in their interest.

We will not explain or discuss this antisemitism, because we expect the group founders to be aware of the problematic content of their group themes. We urge you to not found any new groups with this topic or you account and profil will be deleted.

thanks for you attention, the VZ team. (link provided by James Kush)

[thezeitgeistmovement.com]?

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corboy
German media networks have reason to be concerned because Germany not only has suffered from the effects of Nazi terrorism but, during 1968-1977, suffered from Communist terrorism as well.

The Baader Meinhof group and the Red Army Fraktion (RAF) exerted a reign of terror and murder during that time and the memory is still fresh.

Here is an academic study of the terror years from 1968 to 1977, with focus on the RAF. It gives context to why ZM was disciplined in Germany; the fuel for the terror years was a combination of anti capitalistic communist ideology co-mingled with antisemitic ideology.

'An Age of Murder: Terrorism and Ideology in Germany

Opening Lecture in a series on “The ‘German Autumn’ of1977: Terror, State, and Society in West Germany,” delivered at the German Historical Institute inWashington on Thursday, September 27, 2007.


[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

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Hello,

we deleted your group "ZG-revolution.de". So called ZG groups are no longer accepted in studiVZ. Anyhow, we want to give you the reason for our action. It is not our intension to supress alternative opinions or news, but we see with worries the developement of new theories that have been pushed, for example by the ZG movies.

The idea of gray eminences, elites or secret societies that control politics from behind the curtain is not new. The ZG movies extend these ideas to the economic system.

And here the circle of the history of conspiracy theories closes: latent antisemitism, which shines through many of the formulated theories. For example the idea of the bad, grupping capital, which is responsible for the financial crisis and also patronage and similar means to take influence into world politic to control and guide them in their interest.

We will not explain or discuss this antisemitism, because we expect the group founders to be aware of the problematic content of their group themes. We urge you to not found any new groups with this topic or you account and profil will be deleted.

thanks for you attention, the VZ team. (link provided by James Kush)

[thezeitgeistmovement.com]?

[forum.culteducation.com]