Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 06, 2012 10:21PM
To VTV:
Friend, want to know why your stuff has been posted here and tolerated for as long as it has?
Because the RR.com message board does not resemble TZM. A latitude of discussion and a range of viewpoints is welcome so long as there's no personal attacking and bullying.
And.. VTV input on this message gives outsiders a preview of what they'd be in for by getting involved with TZM.
And again, if I get any unpleasant PMs, I always put them in a specimen jar and send them to Mr Ross.
Friend, want to know why your stuff has been posted here and tolerated for as long as it has?
Because the RR.com message board does not resemble TZM. A latitude of discussion and a range of viewpoints is welcome so long as there's no personal attacking and bullying.
And.. VTV input on this message gives outsiders a preview of what they'd be in for by getting involved with TZM.
And again, if I get any unpleasant PMs, I always put them in a specimen jar and send them to Mr Ross.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 06, 2012 10:54PM
Quote
corboy
To VTV:
Friend, want to know why your stuff has been posted here and tolerated for as long as it has?
Because the RR.com message board does not resemble TZM. A latitude of discussion and a range of viewpoints is welcome so long as there's no personal attacking and bullying.
And.. VTV input on this message gives outsiders a preview of what they'd be in for by getting involved with TZM.
And again, if I get any unpleasant PMs, I always put them in a specimen jar and send them to Mr Ross.
Corboy,
You are clearly taking propaganda as reality. We didn't ban people from TZM forums for varying viewpoints. We banned them for attacking and bullying people.
Our forums were for the purpose of talking about TZM events and news, eventually people were not welcome there who were off topic. Which happened a lot. (People trying to get people to join their own groups or whatever.)
And now you are linking to websites where attacking and bullying is the entire point of the blogs in question. Calling people fat, gay, and any number of juvenile slurs.
So what is the purpose of this forum? Is it discuss cults? Or to allow people a "platform" to spread libel and slander not related to any cult activity?
I will forward this response on to Mr. Ross as well as what it is I am replying to.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 06, 2012 11:39PM
Quote
corboy
And.. VTV input on this message gives outsiders a preview of what they'd be in for by getting involved with TZM.
Do you honestly feel that what is going on in this message board or what has been linked by a tiny number of people is any indication as to what people are "in for" if they get involved in TZM?
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 07, 2012 12:45AM
As I understood it, this website's purpose is to evaluate cults or harmful organizations. It seems that the conversation has switched to using independent blogs as the best "source" or at least a credible "source" about the nature of the Zeitgeist Movement.
So, rather then focusing so much on links from random people on the internet who could have any number of agendas, biases, or ulterior motives in "exposing" the Zeitgeist Movement, why not actually study what information is used to "recruit" people, and what tends to lead to people joining?
The Zeitgeist Movement is an activist movement, similar to other activist movements around the world. People who are part of the Zeitgeist Movement are often also involved in Anti-war activism, civil rights activism, environmental activism, and anti-corruption activism like Occupy, or even some aspects of the Tea Party.
This is the answer to the question in the FAQ:
This guide is in the process of being updated, but it is the Zeitgeist Activist Orientation Guide. If you were looking for "cult" programming or recruitment videos, review of the Orientation guide would be a good step:
[www.youtube.com]
The Venus Project is no longer affiliated directly with the Zeitgeist Movement. But the Zeitgeist Movement still tries to spread awareness of Jacque Fresco's work and feels it is important. This film is probably the best and most brief video explaining what TVP is about.
[vimeo.com]
This is the Mission statement of the Zeitgeist Movement, as found here:
What's it like to be a member?
Attending local chapter meetings generally involves meeting up with other people interested in this movement. Talking about current events in the world, discussing local activism. These meetings on average take place in public places like libraries.
Online we have a voice chat server. Some chapters have forums. The rules for the voice chat are really not that different then the Rick Ross forums.
Some members attend Occupy activities, or are involved in other organizations like the Green Party. Decisions to do that are generally made by individuals.
Chapter Coordinators set up meetings and activities. Though they are not the only people in a given group who can do so. Participation in the movement's activities is completely voluntary. If you stop showing up nobody is going to track you down and try to coerce or pressure you to keep attending meetings. Or in any way being involved.
There is no "membership dues" and although donations are sometimes asked for for specific activities (just as they are in other activist organizations) they are never a requirement for participation.
Meetings between chapters usually take place on the internet via voice chat servers like Team Speak. Such meetings usually amount to each chapter giving reports on their progress and activities. Sometimes a regional coordinator might suggest activities that they would like all the chapters to participate in. Like Z-Day, the Zeitgeist Media Festival, etc. These are again, completely voluntary.
If someone does not like what is going on at the meetings, nothing is forcing them to go. And if they stopped going, there would be no repercussions.
Nobody in TZM is in a position to force anyone to "shun" anyone. And while the organization reserves the right to dissociation with chapters or activists who are not productive this is honestly no different then other organizations that do the same. Political parties do this, even clubs do this. The point is that the organization does not want to be associated with people who do not seem to hold the same values. If the Hazard County Republican Party endorsed Barack Obama, obviously the Republican Party national would revoke their membership to the Republican Party, and open that "chapter" to be run by someone who is moving along with the same agenda.
In studying cults myself, one of the major components is the "control" mechanism. So what is the control mechanism in the Zeitgeist Movement? There isn't one.
Cults tend to gain control over large groups of people by keeping them all in one central place, and controlling their every contact with the outside world. There is simply no way this could be achieved by the Zeitgeist Movement even if it was desired.
The only "power" the Zeitgeist Movement as an entity has involving it's membership is access to it's resources. Meaning yes, they can ban you from the Team Speak server, forums, email lists, etc. They can't come to your house and threaten you. They can't hurt you or do anything to scare you. Yet most of the "abuse" you hear about is people whining that they were banned from forums, Teamspeak, or removed from a chapter for their behavior.
The movement does reserve the use of it's resources to people who are part of the organization and supportive of it. Despite the spin that this somehow means they are trying to squelch opposition, what organization on this planet would offer it's communication resources to entities that are hostile to it? Do you see the Republican Party allowing the Democratic party to come to their communications mediums to attack the Republican party? If a democrat walked into a Republican meeting and become disruptive wouldn't they be asked to leave?
The Zeitgeist Movement also encourages independent thought, critical and analytical thinking. We encourage membership to utilize the scientific method to evaluate decisions. There is no "guru" that tells people what to think. Though Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco etc. give their views just like everyone else. Anyone who has ever studied Jacque Fresco's work will see that he frequently tells people to question what they are told and evaluate it rationally. He specifically tells people not to venerate him or build statues to him.
So, if the people who use this website for the purpose of evaluating groups to see if they might be harmful groups or "cults" are honest about their motives, I would ask them to seriously evaluate this post, and all the links in it.
So, rather then focusing so much on links from random people on the internet who could have any number of agendas, biases, or ulterior motives in "exposing" the Zeitgeist Movement, why not actually study what information is used to "recruit" people, and what tends to lead to people joining?
The Zeitgeist Movement is an activist movement, similar to other activist movements around the world. People who are part of the Zeitgeist Movement are often also involved in Anti-war activism, civil rights activism, environmental activism, and anti-corruption activism like Occupy, or even some aspects of the Tea Party.
This is the answer to the question in the FAQ:
Quote
What is the Zeitgeist Movement?
The Zeitgeist Movement is an explicitly non-violent, global sustainability advocacy group currently working in over 1000 Regional Chapters across 70 countries. The basic structure of The Movement consists of Chapters, Teams, Projects & Events. Overall, the Chapters are essentially what define the Movement and each Chapter works to not only spread awareness about the roots of our social problems today but also to express the logical, scientific solutions and methods we have at our disposal to update and correct the current social system and create a truly responsible, sustainable, peaceful, global society. Working through global and regional educational projects and community programs, the intermediate goal is to obtain a worldwide movement, essentially unifying the people, regardless of country, religion or political party, with a common value identification that we all invariably share, pertaining to our survival and sustainability.
It is the assumption of The Movement that the educational/activist pressure generated, coupled with what is currently a failing social system, will inhibit and override the established political, commercial and nationalist institutions outright, exposing and resolving the flaws inherent. It is our view that the traditional mediums of politics and commerce as forces for change will not obtain the goals needed to make our social system sustainable and humane for they appear to be born out of the same traditionalized flawed logic that has created the problems as they stand.
The transitional goal, once such a global presence and pressure is obtained, is to implement an economic model that follows a truly scientific train of thought with respect to the technical factors that allow for human propensity, public health and environment responsibility over generational time. This new model, since it is based upon Resource Management and Natural Law (Science) as the logical starting point for all decisions and processes, is often referred to as a "Resource-Based Economic Model". However, the realization of this direction is not that of an institution but of a train of thought - the train of thought of objectively applying The Scientific Method for Social Concern and allowing its natural emergence to flourish without limitation as new efficiencies present themselves.
This guide is in the process of being updated, but it is the Zeitgeist Activist Orientation Guide. If you were looking for "cult" programming or recruitment videos, review of the Orientation guide would be a good step:
[www.youtube.com]
The Venus Project is no longer affiliated directly with the Zeitgeist Movement. But the Zeitgeist Movement still tries to spread awareness of Jacque Fresco's work and feels it is important. This film is probably the best and most brief video explaining what TVP is about.
[vimeo.com]
This is the Mission statement of the Zeitgeist Movement, as found here:
Quote
Zeitgeist Movement Mission Statement
Mission Statement
Founded in 2008, The Zeitgeist Movement is a Sustainability Advocacy Organization which conducts community based activism and awareness actions through a network of Global/Regional Chapters, Project Teams, Annual Events, Media and Charity Work.
The Movement's principle focus includes the recognition that the majority of the social problems which plague the human species at this time are not the sole result of some institutional corruption, scarcity, a political policy, a flaw of "human nature" or other commonly held assumptions of causality.
Rather, The Movement recognizes that issues such as poverty, corruption, collapse, homelessness, war, starvation and the like appear to be "Symptoms" born out of an outdated social structure. While intermediate Reform steps and temporal Community Support are of interest to The Movement, the defining goal here is the installation of a new socioeconomic model based upon technically responsible Resource Management, Allocation and Distribution through what would be considered The Scientific Method of reasoning problems and finding optimized solutions.
This "Resource-Based Economic Model" is about taking a direct technical approach to social management as opposed to a Monetary or even Political one. It is about updating the workings of society to the most advanced and proven methods Science has to offer, leaving behind the damaging consequences and limiting inhibitions which are generated by our current system of monetary exchange, profits, corporations and other structural and motivational components.
The Movement is loyal to a train of thought, not figures or institutions. In other words, the view held is that through the use of socially targeted research and tested understandings in Science and Technology, we are now able to logically arrive at societal applications which could be profoundly more effective in meeting the needs of the human population. In fact, so much so, that there is little reason to assume war, poverty, most crimes and many other money-based scarcity effects common in our current model cannot be resolved over time.
The range of The Movement's Activism & Awareness Campaigns extend from short to long term, with the model based explicitly on Non-Violent methods of communication. The long term view, which is the transition into a Resource-Based Economic Model, is a constant pursuit and expression, as stated before. However, in the path to get there, The Movement also recognizes the need for transitional Reform techniques, along with direct Community Support.
For instance, while "Monetary Reform" itself is not an end solution proposed by The Movement, the merit of such legislative approaches are still considered valid in the context of transition and temporal integrity. Likewise, while food and clothes drives and other supportive projects to help those in need today are also not considered a long term solution, it is still considered valid in the context of helping others in a time of need, while also drawing awareness to the principle goal.
The Zeitgeist Movement also has no allegiance to a country or traditional political platforms. It views the world as a single system and the human species as a single family and recognizes that all countries must disarm and learn to share resources and ideas if we expect to survive in the long run. Hence, the solutions arrived at and promoted are in the interest to help everyone on the planet Earth, not a select group.
What's it like to be a member?
Attending local chapter meetings generally involves meeting up with other people interested in this movement. Talking about current events in the world, discussing local activism. These meetings on average take place in public places like libraries.
Online we have a voice chat server. Some chapters have forums. The rules for the voice chat are really not that different then the Rick Ross forums.
Some members attend Occupy activities, or are involved in other organizations like the Green Party. Decisions to do that are generally made by individuals.
Chapter Coordinators set up meetings and activities. Though they are not the only people in a given group who can do so. Participation in the movement's activities is completely voluntary. If you stop showing up nobody is going to track you down and try to coerce or pressure you to keep attending meetings. Or in any way being involved.
There is no "membership dues" and although donations are sometimes asked for for specific activities (just as they are in other activist organizations) they are never a requirement for participation.
Meetings between chapters usually take place on the internet via voice chat servers like Team Speak. Such meetings usually amount to each chapter giving reports on their progress and activities. Sometimes a regional coordinator might suggest activities that they would like all the chapters to participate in. Like Z-Day, the Zeitgeist Media Festival, etc. These are again, completely voluntary.
If someone does not like what is going on at the meetings, nothing is forcing them to go. And if they stopped going, there would be no repercussions.
Nobody in TZM is in a position to force anyone to "shun" anyone. And while the organization reserves the right to dissociation with chapters or activists who are not productive this is honestly no different then other organizations that do the same. Political parties do this, even clubs do this. The point is that the organization does not want to be associated with people who do not seem to hold the same values. If the Hazard County Republican Party endorsed Barack Obama, obviously the Republican Party national would revoke their membership to the Republican Party, and open that "chapter" to be run by someone who is moving along with the same agenda.
In studying cults myself, one of the major components is the "control" mechanism. So what is the control mechanism in the Zeitgeist Movement? There isn't one.
Cults tend to gain control over large groups of people by keeping them all in one central place, and controlling their every contact with the outside world. There is simply no way this could be achieved by the Zeitgeist Movement even if it was desired.
The only "power" the Zeitgeist Movement as an entity has involving it's membership is access to it's resources. Meaning yes, they can ban you from the Team Speak server, forums, email lists, etc. They can't come to your house and threaten you. They can't hurt you or do anything to scare you. Yet most of the "abuse" you hear about is people whining that they were banned from forums, Teamspeak, or removed from a chapter for their behavior.
The movement does reserve the use of it's resources to people who are part of the organization and supportive of it. Despite the spin that this somehow means they are trying to squelch opposition, what organization on this planet would offer it's communication resources to entities that are hostile to it? Do you see the Republican Party allowing the Democratic party to come to their communications mediums to attack the Republican party? If a democrat walked into a Republican meeting and become disruptive wouldn't they be asked to leave?
The Zeitgeist Movement also encourages independent thought, critical and analytical thinking. We encourage membership to utilize the scientific method to evaluate decisions. There is no "guru" that tells people what to think. Though Peter Joseph, Jacque Fresco etc. give their views just like everyone else. Anyone who has ever studied Jacque Fresco's work will see that he frequently tells people to question what they are told and evaluate it rationally. He specifically tells people not to venerate him or build statues to him.
So, if the people who use this website for the purpose of evaluating groups to see if they might be harmful groups or "cults" are honest about their motives, I would ask them to seriously evaluate this post, and all the links in it.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
gac123
()
Date: July 07, 2012 07:01AM
Belgian chapter coordinator here,
Since I frequently get this message board in my google alerts for the zeitgeist movement, I've read the whole thing, checked out james kush his website and I have to say;
VTV, bravo, you are a saint.
You've put up with all that crap, were always polite and helpful with finding suiting analogies (some were so-so, but hey, at least you tried to communicate on different levels) to explain a situation but you should've stopped a long time ago seeing that the people attacking, keep at it, no matter what.
If that is what those guys are doing, it seems to me they have found a nice little hobby to keep busy with (I guess stalking is a hobby) and there will be no convincing them, you really need to understand this.
From what I see there is a very anti-TZM agenda from those guys/girls (but allow me to always use "guys" as a unifying term) and they won't stop. They didn't use logic, reason and facts to arrive at a decision so using logic reason and facts to convince them otherwise will probably not work; like the saying goes about faith. They just see things how they want to see it.
Your time is better spent on things that are more constructive for this planet, and that is advancing the tzm agenda for social sustainability.
So here is my side of the TZM story;
My younger brother showed me this movie "Zeitgeist" (the first one) years ago and I found it very intriguing because I didn't think about religion, 9/11, banks, .. in a different way than from what I have been told (tv/parents/church).
It didn't matter for me whether it was factually correct or not, the point I took home was that I should be critical of what I hear and see.
Some time passed and then came the release of "Zeitgeist: Addendum". It was early 2009 that I came across it on the internet and I was curious because this suggested to be a follow up.
I think a more fitting name would have been "Zeitgeist: Addendum & Part II" in my opinion, but it certainly is not the most elegant, "Zeitgeist: Addendum" is fine as it is I guess.
So anyway, I watched it with my brother (I only have 1 brother), watched it again with my girlfriend, watched it again with a friend, each time discussing the ideas and coming to the same conclusion. If this really is possible (a RBE), then we should help it by finding a way on how to contribute and spreading the word about this movie. We kept discussing and researching this RBE idea with family and friends over the summer of 2009 and that's when I discovered I could use some of my skills (I studied informatics in high school and then got a professional bachelor in industrial product design in 2007) in using 3D applications for helping to make 3D models of Jacque's designs.
I came in contact with Andrew from the TVP design team for this and met with him in London the day after we saw the lecture given by Jacque Fresco.
Seeing all the people there helping each other and discussing those ideas really gave me a boost to be even more active.
That's when I decided to start a TZM chapter. We are january 2010.
Seeing nobody (from the people that were interested and we were able to come in contact with in Belgium) was really up to the task of coordinating the Belgian chapter, I took this up as well. Created the website (from the template), and started holding teamspeak meetings regularly with other Belgian tzm-ers and finding ways to promote the tzm agenda with Belgians in ways that would fit our busy lives.
So here we still are, 2,5 years later, I've seen people come and go in our chapter, but there are still many of the people present that were there in the beginning. Those that left didn't really leave, they just left the activism side for various personal reasons, but still talk about it with friends, family, coworkers, random people; and in my opinion, this is activism of the best quality we can get. Planting seeds is the game.
That's why this whole thing about power abuse (and whole cult discussion) and what not is so extremely ridiculous and moot, its just unbelievable (well not really unbelievable, if you read reddit like me, you'll soon come to the conclusion that there are a lot of misguided people out there spraying nonsense so far off that its funny but not really because this is just how bad things are).
There is no power, people do whatever they want, and that is what this movement is about, it is a group of like minded people that are volunteering their time and effort to further a cause they believe in by spreading the word, organizing events, handing out flyers, etc..
That's it.
Since I frequently get this message board in my google alerts for the zeitgeist movement, I've read the whole thing, checked out james kush his website and I have to say;
VTV, bravo, you are a saint.
You've put up with all that crap, were always polite and helpful with finding suiting analogies (some were so-so, but hey, at least you tried to communicate on different levels) to explain a situation but you should've stopped a long time ago seeing that the people attacking, keep at it, no matter what.
If that is what those guys are doing, it seems to me they have found a nice little hobby to keep busy with (I guess stalking is a hobby) and there will be no convincing them, you really need to understand this.
From what I see there is a very anti-TZM agenda from those guys/girls (but allow me to always use "guys" as a unifying term) and they won't stop. They didn't use logic, reason and facts to arrive at a decision so using logic reason and facts to convince them otherwise will probably not work; like the saying goes about faith. They just see things how they want to see it.
Your time is better spent on things that are more constructive for this planet, and that is advancing the tzm agenda for social sustainability.
So here is my side of the TZM story;
My younger brother showed me this movie "Zeitgeist" (the first one) years ago and I found it very intriguing because I didn't think about religion, 9/11, banks, .. in a different way than from what I have been told (tv/parents/church).
It didn't matter for me whether it was factually correct or not, the point I took home was that I should be critical of what I hear and see.
Some time passed and then came the release of "Zeitgeist: Addendum". It was early 2009 that I came across it on the internet and I was curious because this suggested to be a follow up.
I think a more fitting name would have been "Zeitgeist: Addendum & Part II" in my opinion, but it certainly is not the most elegant, "Zeitgeist: Addendum" is fine as it is I guess.
So anyway, I watched it with my brother (I only have 1 brother), watched it again with my girlfriend, watched it again with a friend, each time discussing the ideas and coming to the same conclusion. If this really is possible (a RBE), then we should help it by finding a way on how to contribute and spreading the word about this movie. We kept discussing and researching this RBE idea with family and friends over the summer of 2009 and that's when I discovered I could use some of my skills (I studied informatics in high school and then got a professional bachelor in industrial product design in 2007) in using 3D applications for helping to make 3D models of Jacque's designs.
I came in contact with Andrew from the TVP design team for this and met with him in London the day after we saw the lecture given by Jacque Fresco.
Seeing all the people there helping each other and discussing those ideas really gave me a boost to be even more active.
That's when I decided to start a TZM chapter. We are january 2010.
Seeing nobody (from the people that were interested and we were able to come in contact with in Belgium) was really up to the task of coordinating the Belgian chapter, I took this up as well. Created the website (from the template), and started holding teamspeak meetings regularly with other Belgian tzm-ers and finding ways to promote the tzm agenda with Belgians in ways that would fit our busy lives.
So here we still are, 2,5 years later, I've seen people come and go in our chapter, but there are still many of the people present that were there in the beginning. Those that left didn't really leave, they just left the activism side for various personal reasons, but still talk about it with friends, family, coworkers, random people; and in my opinion, this is activism of the best quality we can get. Planting seeds is the game.
That's why this whole thing about power abuse (and whole cult discussion) and what not is so extremely ridiculous and moot, its just unbelievable (well not really unbelievable, if you read reddit like me, you'll soon come to the conclusion that there are a lot of misguided people out there spraying nonsense so far off that its funny but not really because this is just how bad things are).
There is no power, people do whatever they want, and that is what this movement is about, it is a group of like minded people that are volunteering their time and effort to further a cause they believe in by spreading the word, organizing events, handing out flyers, etc..
That's it.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 07, 2012 10:41PM
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Observations on various fringe groups including TZM from thoughtful participants in various Occupy projects.
Some names changed to single letters for privacy.
a little further down..
and
How TZM looks to an outside observer--from Factnet.org
[factnet.org]
(cache)
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Observations on various fringe groups including TZM from thoughtful participants in various Occupy projects.
Some names changed to single letters for privacy.
Quote
Oct 18 2011 05:48
#64
Joined: 30-03-11
M wrote:
I'm slightly worried that these protests might add to the influence and numbers of people promoting this kind of perspective, along with the Zeitgeist-type perspective.
Or at least it's bringing them out of the shadows and into actual organising and doing stuff, for better or worse.
I think a massive load of people, a significant proportion of young people, are really into Zeitgeist-type stuff, and conspiracy theories about Rothschild's etc. That's just based on the people who went to my school and what they're into now though, so isn't based on any actual proper evidence.
The Zeitgeist types seem to be having a coming out party as echoed elsewhere maybe in this thread. It seems to be really intertwined with right wing crypto anti-semite conservative Rothschild conspiracy stuff, and the kids seem to lap it up.
Also does anyone know where they get their funding from? They seem to be throwing quite a lot of money around. Would be interested in any leaflet/critiques from an Anarcho perspective.
Oct 18 2011 10:16
Joined: 21-04-11
X wrote:
mons wrote:
(copy of earlier quote deleted)
Couple of years back I wrote a critique of the Zeitgeist and the Zeitgeist Adendum in Hungarian perhaps I will translate it, just to add it to the common.
But to sum it up, I would say this is a very dangerous path to choose.
First of all, at the heart of all big global conspiracy theories is the assumption is a kind of belief of a universal Evil character.
Now, while I don't sympathize with any bourgeois asshole, but they are certainly not evil characters, even if they are bankers.
Personal interest only contributes to a social system, that was established on the basis of personal interest, no matter how you make your living, labour or profit.
In the recent times, internet gave a rise of the conspiracy theories big time.
While we, communists are sticking to our materialist perspective, which always will involve evidence based arguments, conspiracy theories are "sexy" because they don't pull hundreds of references, proving, deep understanding of the world, only a superficial glimpse to our reality.
The partially sad fact is, that while we are right in our method to understand the world through this historical materialism, it is able to hardly challenge such a narrow minded explanations, why the world is shit.
It seems harmless, or even understandable sometimes: the bailout of banks has drawn public attention, and people start to blame the banks.
Zeitgeist movement with its "big discovery" of the money multiplier effect could get easily involved with the banker-focused movements. No wonder then, how we ended up with this shit pile at all. But to be honest, I have no clue how to deal with this surge of newage crap.
At some point, it's the same as religions: you can't just argue against the existence of god, or the world-conspirator jews, who're living off the fraction reserve system.
The very premises of such an ideology is that they are so perfectly disguised, and you're brainwashed not to see them. It's very discomforting to see this happening.
#67
ocelot
Offline
Joined: 15-11-09
It is discomforting, but I don't think it's a particularly novel phenonemon. If you look back at the close-grained social history of things like the French revolution or what have you, there's a hell of a lot of conspiracy theory going around at the time.
I think the problem (conspiralunacy) is more fundamental and one that we have to understand and confront as promoters of a left perspective. While I don't accept Lakoff's concept of cognitive frames entirely uncritically, the terms can be useful.
People understand the world through stories and the basic convention of stories is to personalise or embody problems and principles into characters.
So most people's starting position, as a frame, is to see the existence of evil as an indication of wickedness or "bad people". The left perspective is that social problems are predominantely caused by systemic problems. Our difficulty - and the conspiraloon's opportunity - is that the "systemic problem" frame is much more difficult (at least initially) to sell than the "wicked people" frame. But sell it we must.
One of the more effective ways of challenging frames is to make them explicit and lay them out for inspection.
In this case we need to convince people that Grimm's fairy tales may have been an effective way of scaring kids to stay out of the woods in times gone by, but that they are not going to help us overcome the problems of a system that works according to a logic of money rather than human need.
I remember seeing a documentary on Toni Negri a few years back and he came out with a line something like "Evil does not exist. There's no evil, there's only us" - which given Negri's somewhat Luciferan past, may not be as reassuring as it might otherwise be wink , but I think the point is sound. Of course it's hard not to see the likes of Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein as evil hollywood-style villains, but if we are serious about capitalism as a social system being the problem, not the individuals who happen to currently be filling the roles of the top capitalists, then we do have to push that line to a degree.
#68
soc
soc's picture
Offline
Joined: 21-04-11
ocelot: I read your post with interest. I think your example of how people understand the world is quite useful to challenge this strain of conspiracy theorist perspective. Though it seems quite a task: basically it's idealism vs materialism once more and the old methods clearly didn't do the job.
I think it worth to look in to. It's not just about the zeitgeist, illuminati and such: the understanding of how the world works is essential task for building a revolutionary movement. Effective arguments against the lines of "banks and corruption" would be great weapon against the reformist propaganda.
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Oct 18 2011 13:28
#69
CDB
Offline
Joined: 28-09-04
I think the attendance in London was - and continues to be - really low, and this, IMO, indicates some of the limits of this movement.
It's predominantly young and internet-savvy hippy liberals whose only unifying ideology is a fundamentalist pacifism. Other than that, I think we should remember that 10x as many people came to G20, 250x more to M26 and more even went to UK Uncut's pro-NHS demo the week before. It's largely clueless, abstract beyond belief and utterly, utterly non-threatening.
Moreover, as the wintry winds and chills set in, as well as the working week, it seems to demonstrate a certain amount of activist ghettoisation in its obstinant, immovable, pseudo-authoritarian 'tactics' and pseudo-discussions.
If folks decided to 'occupy' their local parks, or flat blocks, or Job Centres, etc, then I'd be excited.
I mean, I can see a thin sliver of potential in events here (eg if they get battered by the cops and/or abandon their incredibly dogmatic insistence on a strategy that i'm sure even they know will fail), but for the moment at least, I'm applying the Morrissey Law here ("it says nothing to me about myyyy liiife" wink ).
a little further down..
Quote
Joined: 11-04-10
EGADS wrote:
CRUD wrote:
EGADS wrote:
the technocrat weirdos
I wonder what "socialist" forum online has given them a huge platform to spread their silly ideas?
To be honest, RevLeft would still be a pile of shit even without any technocrat mods, considering how it's infested with die-hard trots and tankies. Heck, one of the first threads I read there was one about whether "Stalin was right" and half the twats were justifying what he did. angry
I think the Stalinists on that site are trolls but still, it's supposedly the no 1 socialist site online and a great deal of the mods are the Technocracy/Zeitgeist kids who know fuck all of socialism.
The dumb asses that run that site aren't doing any of us any favors by allowing that shit to fly. That's what it is, shit. It's not as bad as any free market capitalist or fascist theory but only serves to confuse people as to how to get rid of capitalism (some of the early Technocrats do in fact look like some sort of fascists and they do in fact seek to put a minority in control of the means of production so at the least they're advocating the continuation of hierarchical society). They have some points any socialist would agree with but the the core message is counterrevolutionary even if well meaning.
In the end everyone (average person on the street) is just going to be confused with all these various "solutions" floating around. In comes the same old same old to save the day.....
and
Quote
Oct 19 2011 00:04
#74
Further down..
# 74 A wrote
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Joined: 14-07-08
Hey all,
Yes the swazi-star of david is the Raelians. They have a new updated model which is less mind boggling batshit mental but the true believes still hold to the older one. I live in Brisbane which is pretty much their strong-hold in Australia (maybe Byron Bay too) and in my local suburb there is a sculpture of a space ship they helped pay-for.
Occupy Brisbane has also had a fair share of Zeitgeist/Chemtrails/anti-vaccines/end the Fed/Ron Paul/Law of Attraction wackyness. But things really went off the charts when THIS HAPPENED!
[www.groupthink.com.au]
There are some positives - a Free University of (Occupied) Brisbane has been started to create space for more serious discussion and that is getting some good attention.
Also there are a lot of interesting people who just drop by and want a chat.
cheers
How TZM looks to an outside observer--from Factnet.org
[factnet.org]
(cache)
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Quote
Dateline London: I would direct anyone feeling like throwing two hours of their life away on a Zeitgeist vid to instead get stuck into Schumpeter’s Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy – or if you want to watch a film about the crisis, watch Inside Job.
Please, please, please don’t get suckered into Ron Paul liberalism or Lyndon LaRouche’s fascism or whatever garbage Zeitgeist is peddling – it’s all bizarre, reptillian-takeover-Illuminati schizoid fantasy and it will waste your time remorselessly and make you sound like an idiot when you talk to people who know things.
Dateline Ottawa: Jack Chick would be proud. I often run into this situation where I find someone whom I agree with, and then they go into some strange Zeitgeist or LaRouche psychobabble that puts any unusual belief I may hold to shame.
Occupy Montreal: We translated the text ourselves, and it’s good. Otherwise, there was a very small visible anarchist presence, mostly in the form of backpatches, a few black flags or black-and-red flags, and a few banners. This must be contrasted to the Maoists of the Parti communiste révolutionnaire, the Zeitgeist Movement, the Lyndon Larouche cult, various ragtag bands of Québécois sovereigntists, and other marginals who managed to be visible.
There are more anarchists than any of these groups, except maybe the sovereigntists, but the majority of anarchists chose either not to engage or they chose to engage in a way that didn’t mention the A-word.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
VTV
()
Date: July 07, 2012 11:04PM
So you found a bunch of random excerpts from random forums on the internet of people's uninformed opinions. That's great. If that's data that is useful for this conversation, can I start making huge posts of people talking positively about the movement?
Again Corboy, I don't understand what you are doing. Did you read my post suggesting that you actually review TZM materials?
The internet is full of negative, positive, and so-so reactions to EVERYTHING.
I have already clarified that conspiracy theories are not spread in TZM. Individual members might believe in that stuff as is there right, but you won't see any of that in our materials. Because it's not part of the "curriculum".
Again Corboy, I don't understand what you are doing. Did you read my post suggesting that you actually review TZM materials?
The internet is full of negative, positive, and so-so reactions to EVERYTHING.
I have already clarified that conspiracy theories are not spread in TZM. Individual members might believe in that stuff as is there right, but you won't see any of that in our materials. Because it's not part of the "curriculum".
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 08, 2012 04:38AM
If TZM has a secure following and a future, why be so upset at a few dissenting voices, eh?
From what I have witnessed in this discussion, I get a feeling that if TZM and its faithful were to run society, life would get grim very quickly, because dissent would be shouted down.
No thanks. I dont want that kind of world, so thats why anyone considering TZM as an outlet for their idealism, time and money should have a chance to witness how hard TZM enthusiasts come over here to shout down mere attempts to describe disagreements about TZM from other parts of the internet.
Here is another one.
[archive.installgentoo.net]
Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:23:28 2011 No.2439266 [Report] [Reply] [Original]
Here is some very important information for people supporting The Venus Project. Also to others who understand Sustainability, Systems ecology, Peak Oil and interested in REAL alternatives instead of the bullshit moralistic, cult that is RBE, TVP, TZM, ABC or for fucks sake whatever bullshit they have. I am a man of science and when I found this out, it disgusted me how these people used honestly great intellectual, scientific information and twisted into their own philosophical, guru, cult bullshit. This information I’m presenting are for serious people who want a serious social design proposal and not some half thought, mainly copied and pasted research from the Venus Project. There is no doubt the polarizing effect of their bullshit. Most people agree with their analysis but disagree with their approach. Which is mainly why they’ve developed a solid cult following. I hope this presentation would destroy any relevance they have in any discussion anywhere and real solutions are presented instead. I will be presenting one such alternative solution.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:24:28 2011 No.2439273 [Report]
First
There was a group in the 20's called the Technical Alliance formed at Columbia University. They were curious of the effects technology had at the time. During World War 1, hundreds of thousands of men were removed from the industrial processes of North America and yet were still able to produce for themselves with the help of Technology. So, they decided to research how far Technology would take us as far as our social structure was concerned. The research and study by the Technical Alliance marked the first time in history anywhere in the world that a country or a Continent was objectively examined and analyzed on a functionally multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary basis, not as nations and their people have always been compared and rated--and still are--on the basis of their political economic/financial ideology, their military forces, and their philosophical premises. Instead, the Technical Alliance measured and assessed the extent of the land's natural resources of soil, metals, fuels, hydrology and its energy resources, its transport and communications and construction capabilities, its industrial and technological productive capacity, its available scientific, engineering, biological trained personnel--all to determine whether this Continental area could provide an equitably individualized high optimum standard of living for its population, and if so, how this could be brought about.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:25:28 2011 No.2439278 [Report]
Second
The group, later on, formed an organization called Technocracy Incorporated. They did this to protect the original research and design planned for North America. It was and still is a nonpolitical, nonsectarian research and educational organization. In 1933, M. King Hubbert and Howard Scott, with the help of many other technocrats wrote the 23 lesson Technocracy Study Course. The course could be used to outline the purpose of and research done by technocracy, and be used as a plan of action for groups wanting to create a Technate or Technocracy when the Price System collapsed. The basic information contained in the course were, the rudiments of science, the scientific basis that make up our complex social activities (ecology, biophysical analysis, etc.), analysis of the Price System (Growth, Mechanization, distribution etc.), and the scientific social design presented in the last two lessons of the course. All this was the original thesis of the Technical Alliance.
>For all of you morons calling it a monetary system just goes to show the stupidity of your “original” ideas. The correct term is PRICE SYSTEM. It is used widely in ECONOMICS to describe the very thing you are arguing against.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:26:28 2011 No.2439282 [Report]
Third
The famous geoscientist known as M. King Hubbert who developed the Peak Oil theory helped add a few more relevant research and facts used at proving the Price System as an ineffective social construct.
Man Hours and Distribution, M. King Hubbert
[www.scribd.com]
>Here Hubbert proves how mechanization destroys jobs and therefore purchasing power in the Price System.
Hubbert's Prescription for Survival, A Steady State Economy
http:// mkinghubbert-technocracy.blogspot.com/
> Basically the same proposal that is presented in the Study Course, but still a very interesting read.
M. King Hubbert on the nature of Growth
[people.sunyit.edu]
01974%20Congressional%20Testimony.pdf
> M. King Hubbert’s Testimony on the congressional board in 1974 and how he proved energy was a central factor in our society and how growth is needed to be sustained, but is illogical and goes against the basic laws of thermodynamics. This information overlaps heavily with Biophysical Economics.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:26:28 2011 No.2439291 [Report]
Fourth Point
What does this have to do with TVP or ZM?
The Technocracy Study Course and The Venus Project are pretty similar. They both call for a new functional social design and present real solid research proving this. Much of the research presented in the Zeitgeist Movement Orientation guide is also pretty solid stuff. However, this is where the similarities end, and the Resource Based Economy and other moral, philosophical and cult bullshit they created begins. I want to explain the stupidity of RBE/TVP and the functional alternative of the Technate Design for North America, and let /sci decide which is more of a functional alternative.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:27:28 2011 No.2439300 [Report]
Fifth
The Technate Design
I assume most of you guys against TVP/RBE understand the utter stupid that is in their proposal. However, I want to outline what Techocracy Technate design is first, for those of you who don’t know the science based social design. First, if you want to really get into depth about the concept you should read the last two chapters of the Technocracy Study Course. There are various other interesting researches presented in the course, but for a quick understanding that is the essential place to look.
There are two very distinct parts of the design. There is the administration of science and an energy accounting statistical system (biophysical economics).
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:28:28 2011 No.2439306 [Report]
Sixth
The Science Administration
Basically, it is a meritocracy. People in their various places of knowledge and skill are voted amongst themselves to administer whatever skill, function, or purpose they have. It is similar to the concepts of Industrial Democracy and Workplace Democracy but not a definition of it.
Positions are filled based on the proven method of nomination from below and appointment from above. For example, if a position were vacated for whatever reason, then the people immediately below that position would nominate candidates from among their ranks for the position.
Then the managers from the rank above the position would choose from those candidates the person most qualified for the job.
This is the method that is most often used in the technical portions of present organizations, and is based on competence.
Competence of the person is determined by the consistent operation of the technology involved.
If such machinery should fail to operate within acceptable parameters, then the person responsible would be quickly removed and replaced with someone who could perform the job adequately.
In short, the administration operates as an open source system, where collaboration of groups organize together and decide collectively, by consensus, using facts, knowledge, research(science) to administer Technology to society in a humanitarian, secular way, hence the name Technocracy.
The major difference between TVP/ZM is they think in some dogmatic objective science. Claiming algorithms developed, by who, are used in making decisions in their model. That has to be the dumbest fucking idea I have ever come across. I can’t believe they actively promote that bullshit, but then again, they are a cult. So they are centrally planned economy, whereas, Technocracy Technate is not. I will explain further in the energy accounting system of the Technate Design.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:29:28 2011 No.2439313 [Report]
Seventh
The Energy Accounting Statistical System
If you’ve taken ecology and know of it, you’d understand the importance of understanding energy flows and thermodynamics, the history by which came from Willard Gibbs. He was a major influence on the research done by the Technical Alliance and their thesis. Energy accounting uses Biophysical Economics. Not some cockamamie made up term as “resource based economy”. Biophysical economics has major academic participation. Look it up.
This method records the Energy used to produce and distribute goods and services consumed by citizens in a Technate. Energy certificates unlike money are used in a Technate for accounting purposes only. Unlike money or currencies, units of energy cannot be saved or earned, and will be distributed evenly among a populace. The number of units given to each citizen would be calculated by determining the total productive capacity of the technate and dividing it equally, after basic costs of running the infrastructure are considered.
In energy accounting the Technate would use information of natural resources, industrial capacity and citizen’s consuming habits to determine how much of any good or service is being consumed by the populace, so that it would balance production with consumption.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:31:28 2011 No.2439327 [Report]
Eighth (continued from energy accounting system)
The use of 'ENERGY CREDITS' is not described in the design of the Technate
The energy certificate is an energy accounting system only.
There is no such use of it as a CREDIT.
If one has credit, then Q must follow P and thus one must also have DEBIT.
The energy certificate does NOT replace Money. It has NO VALUE at all. It cannot be saved, Hoarded, or traded. Its only use in the Technate is as an energy accounting system and production and distribution accounting of all goods and service produced.
The mere attachment to the Energy Certificate to Credit, debt, or money i.e. medium of exchange is totally erroneous and false. Therefore it is not technocracy.
This Technocratic system is referred to as Energy Accounting using Energy certificates. Technocrats point out that energy accounting is not rationing; it is a way to distribute abundance and track demand. Everyone would receive an equal amount of energy certificates which would far exceed the ability of the consumer to use. Anything short of that is a Price System.
They wrote that the system must do the following things:
"Register on a continuous 24 hour-per-day basis the total net conversion of energy.
"By means of the registration of energy converted and consumed, make possible a balanced load.
"Provide a continuous inventory of all production and consumption
"Provide a specific registration of the type, kind, etc., of all goods and services, where produced and where used [Scott, Howard et al, Technocracy Study Source, p. 232]
The energy certificate can be updated as a Distribution Card today, and the possibility of ordering certain goods through the computer or internet can be used.
The difference with RBE is that NOTHING is analyzed or distributed equitably. Apparently all you have to do is order shit over the computer and you get it….
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:32:28 2011 No.2439333 [Report]
ninth(LAST)
Isn’t this a centrally planned economy?
TVP/ZM is a centrally planned economy by the used of an AI or some other retarded shit they are trying to cook up. Anyway, Technocracys energy accounting statistical system would distribute using available consumption rates of the population. So you “vote” when you consume….so it is a DECENTRALLY PLANNED ECONOMY.
Please post this ANYWHERE so a real alternative can go out there and not this Cult bullshit that is TVP or ZM and thanks for reading…please participate in discussion forums here
http:// technocracy.drupalgardens.com.forum
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:41:28 2011 No.2439384 [Report]
Bump this shit
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:42:28 2011 No.2439388 [Report]
Bump?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:49:28 2011 No.2439439 [Report]
if this had anything to do with a discussion on the merits of a technocratic society, i wouldn't sage it.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:49:28 2011 No.2439441 [Report]
Shamless Self BUMP
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:58:28 2011 No.2439500 [Report]
>>2439439
What the hell does that mean? Bump this if you agree then.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:22:28 2011 No.2439632 [Report]
What...not one response from any TZM or anybody else? No question?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:27:28 2011 No.2439657 [Report]
How do you kill everyone that doesn't agree? Or how do you plan on accomplishing this?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:28:28 2011 No.2439660 [Report]
>>2439632
I'm checking out your site, babylumps.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:29:28 2011 No.2439668 [Report]
>>2439660
... and the link didn't work even when I removed the space
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:41:28 2011 No.2439705 [Report]
>>2439657
There were many possibilities for transition. The general consensus was once the Price System collapsed, then something to this scale would have to be used as a functional alternative. We as a society have only benefited from technology and access to cheap energy. Growth is demanded in a Price System, so it can't go on forever. Peak Oil is already here. This is the reason why the organization is non political and non sectarian, only an education and research group. They new it would a tall order to convince people to implement this.
This is why FEMA was developed by technocrats as a transition tool in the event of a crash. The structure of FEMA before Bush changed it was exactly as envisioned by Technocrats.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 19:42:28 2011 No.2439711 [Report]
>The Technocracy Study Course and The Venus Project are pretty similar
>fucking retarded tzm/tvp are cult dipshits
Im getting mixed signals here OP. And further, I happen to know TZM and Technocracy affiliates are on pretty communicable terms, at least in the northwest.
The single biggest point of contention being the institutionalization of a meritocracy, which is a major concern to those worried about concentration of power and influence.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:46:28 2011 No.2439724 [Report]
>>2439657
There were also a few other different ideas, such as Total Conscription.
There is also the energy input labeling project. It's purpose was to get as many people and organizations to label the energy usage of whatever their product was.
[carbonlabeling.org]
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:50:28 2011 No.2439745 [Report]
>>2439711
You are confusing retarded technocrats who don't understand the purpose of the Technate Design, they also with to change major aspects of it. So I don't know what you mean by technocrats are communicating with ZM...because those people are most likely involved with a few groups who wish to change much of what was written in the study course.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:54:28 2011 No.2439761 [Report]
>>2439711
There are groups in Europe and from the north east who were involved in the organization, but were booted because of what they were doing. So there is absolutely no connection to this material I presented and ZM or any other 'technocrats' who claim to be in communication with ZM.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 19:55:28 2011 No.2439762 [Report]
>>2439745
Oh, sorry.
I didn't realize there were entire organizations of Technocrats who could be classified as "retards".
How much is your membership fee, by the way?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:02:28 2011 No.2439799 [Report]
>>2439762
So, I assume you may be one of them? You seemed to be pretty knowledgeable about the certain schisms involved in the current movement. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked me such questions.
Yes, I honestly think they aren't very bright people. The information presented in the study course is pretty simple.Unfortunately, they seemed to have confused it and wish to 'change' certain things. If they have any contact with ZM, that should definitely indicate red flags about their knowledge.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:10:28 2011 No.2439825 [Report]
this system does not take into account greed, there is no failsafe for monopolization of command positions
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:13:28 2011 No.2439841 [Report]
OP would do well to try to convey his info in a clear manner, free from derogatory comments like
>hurr TVP/ZM they're retards
>bulshit
It makes it hard to take you srsly. It also sheds a very immature light on everything you post
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:20:28 2011 No.2439868 [Report]
>>2439825
hmmm, that is an interesting argument, and it has been somewhat addressed by technocrats by using a retirement age of 45 as an idea, but this isn't set in stone.
However, to state it is a failed concept because of that simple argument is pretty stupid. Especially after considering all the facts and research that contribute to the Price System demise and increased social instability that arises from it.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:21:28 2011 No.2439877 [Report]
>>2439841
Okay, I can lighten up on that.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 20:25:28 2011 No.2439893 [Report]
File: 25 KB, 200x225, Hobbes.jpg [View same] [iqdb]
>>2439799
>make long-ass reply post
>response fucking where?
>down the rabbit hole
>such is life is soviet 4chan
Okay. Doing this again.
Im not a part of any group, its just that I like to research a matter before I talk about it, which is why you'll not find me in a theoretical physics thread beyond expressing interest or fascination.
On the other hand, given you seem to equate everyone not in your group with "retards", I'd likely fall in there somewhere.
Im actually more interested in the particular differences of your TT group, and the Technocrats Im familiar with.
Like, for instance, how do you intend to enact a technical meritocracy and prevent the corruption inherent to a system of currency exchange?
It seems if there's ONE given in such a system, it's the inevitable consolidation of power, wealth, and influence. Does your group have no interest in egalitarianism, or... ?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:29:28 2011 No.2439910 [Report]
all systems today are pretty bad, mainly because the consolidation of power is inevadable, domocracy to republic, socialism to communism, over all I'm for technocracy, but it has to be applied right or not at all.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:36:28 2011 No.2439946 [Report]
File: 5 KB, 239x258, Ignore.png [View same] [iqdb]
>>2439877
Sorry, Op. Damage is done. I am neither Tech nor TVP. However, I am anti dickholes that cant post something intellectual without ruining it by tarnishing it with their own ego, insecurities and general dick demeanor.
In summation, noone will take you srsly on such an adult topic untill you can communicate like one.
You do the techs a diservice by writing like you do and make TVP look better in comparison.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:38:28 2011 No.2439961 [Report]
>>2439306
>The major difference between TVP/ZM is they think in some dogmatic objective science. Claiming algorithms developed, by who, are used in making decisions in their model. That has to be the dumbest fucking idea I have ever come across. I can’t believe they actively promote that bullshit, but then again, they are a cult.
THANK YOU FOR BEING SANE
This was ALWAYS my primary objection. There's a massive gaping hole where the system of "who writes the algorithms and what makes him so smart and trustworthy" is completely missing. It would just turn into another Soviet Union.
I'm much more willing to accept this proposal than ZM bullshit.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:42:28 2011 No.2439980 [Report]
>>2439910
>>2439893
As I've said before, there were many plans of action for a transition. I don't claim to be of any particular one. I'm only interested in present the accurate information presented in the study course. As is the purpose of the group itself as well. The people would have to decide, if not, and social unrest develops in a collapse, maybe there will be a military action. I wouldn't know nor can guess at how it would be implemented.
>Like, for instance, how do you intend to enact a technical meritocracy and prevent the corruption inherent to a system of currency exchange?
Your question doesn't make sense. The technate design is not a price system construct. If the question is asking about corruption, I wouldn't know what to say. Only that the system is open source and usually if statistics and information was off, I'm sure that would be investigated by someone.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:46:28 2011 No.2440004 [Report]
It seems I have insulted quite a bit of people connected to ZM/TVP.
I'm sorry, you don't have to post, but this is my own personal opinion. They are a cult. My language doesn't have to be pretty for logic to be understood. If you disregard anything I wrote on the basis of that, you are not a person of science.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:48:28 2011 No.2440021 [Report]
the main question we should be asking about this proposed system is who is holding the guns and what do they want?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:49:28 2011 No.2440030 [Report]
>>2440004
OP's an idiot. An idiot with copypasta at best
This last post just confirmed it. I shudder at the thought of the techs having someone like you trying to relay their info.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:51:28 2011 No.2440041 [Report]
>>2440030
My post here, I am pro techs btw
i am anti OP
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 20:52:28 2011 No.2440046 [Report]
>>2439980
Right, and therein Im seeing another similarity-
That fundamentally the "decisions" made are not arbitrary, they are arrived at.
In this systems approach, there is no room for corruption as we know it, as "policy", such as it will be, is a matter of verifiable, quantifiable data. This allows for a system of holographically empirical decisions, not based on opinion, cultural relevancy, or religious interpretation.
That which is self-evident will be seen as such, and must render results that can be reproduced at every level.
Getting closer?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:53:28 2011 No.2440050 [Report]
>>2440030
What are you talking about? I'm right here talking, no copy pasta. All the stuff written above was written by me. Did you read it?
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:35:28 2011 No.2440262 [Report]
Ok let's get down to it. You cannot call people that dont follow your same beliefs "retards", infact the very act says a great deal about your own retardation, OP.
Second, do not umbrella all of TZM/TVP's info as "bullshit"
>There is no doubt the polarizing effect of their bullshit.
and then state
>They both call for a new functional social design and present real solid research proving this. Much of the research presented in the Zeitgeist Movement Orientation guide is also pretty solid stuff.
Next we'll deal with OP's very mature approach to starting an intelligent discussion
>I hope this presentation would destroy any relevance they have
Not very open minded, OP. Why is this your aim?
>I want to explain the stupidity of RBE/TVP and the functional alternative of the Technate Design for North America, and let /sci decide which is more of a functional alternative.
Clearly that is not your aim. You are here for people to agree with you. Otherwise you would not make such a biased statement. Hurr durr, one method is stoopid and the other is awesomeo, which one is better. /sci/?
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:37:28 2011 No.2440275 [Report]
Next, Let's deal with your use of the word "cult". Why is this a cult, OP? I think somewhere along the line your logical reasoning failed and your ego kicked in. It doesnt take a scientist to realise why they have amassed such a following. Lecture tours, Books, THREE films that have gone viral, reaching millions. So according to you, those millions are part of a "cult" and are "retarded" for agreeing with a method without seeing, let alone being aware of any other?
All I know is, if I was pro tvp and knew nothing of the techs, after reading your posts and the info is conveyed I would not want to know more.
In summation, Lrn2adult. Otherwise I give you a 4/10...troll harder, faggot.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:41:28 2011 No.2440293 [Report]
>>2440275
They ask you to stop thinking, and let someone else take over. Red flags everywhere.
Tell me this: In the Zeitgeist scenario, who designs and programs the control algorithms?
Even worse, who chooses the "human happiness" metric? That's a human value-judgment; science can't pick it for you.
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:42:28 2011 No.2440302 [Report]
inb4 zeitard
I see flaws and I see benefits, like with anything. Difference is, I'm an adult about it. This is also why I choose not to discuss such matters with an 18 yr old, fresh outta high school pseudo "man of science".
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 21:48:28 2011 No.2440321 [Report]
>>2440293
Chill man, he's honestly trying to help you communicate better. I suggest you take his advice.
Further, you should read Sam Harris for some insight into your latter question of subjective value systems and what science may perhaps have to say about that.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:50:28 2011 No.2440324 [Report]
>>2440321
I'm familiar with Sam Harris. But are you honestly pretending that picking the "human happiness function" is NOT a human value judgment?
And EVEN IF IT IS, who do you trust to describe it accurately? This is rife for abuse.
My greatest consolation is that there are very few Zeitgeist zealots. Meanwhile, I'll be supporting things that will actually *work* to preserve the long-term future of humanity.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:59:28 2011 No.2440350 [Report]
>>2440302
I guess I must have activated your rage machine. There's no doubt you are a part of or connected to ZM/TVP for you to put so much emotions into those posts.
I just vented my opinions that are very sensible. They are a cult because they use personalities in Fresco and Joseph to promote their ideas. They use Agitprop as a means to gather 'followers' and present their information is the weirdest of ways.
I'm against their proposal and the way they present information that disproves the Price System as a social construct. I thought I made that clear in my presentation.
From what I have witnessed in this discussion, I get a feeling that if TZM and its faithful were to run society, life would get grim very quickly, because dissent would be shouted down.
No thanks. I dont want that kind of world, so thats why anyone considering TZM as an outlet for their idealism, time and money should have a chance to witness how hard TZM enthusiasts come over here to shout down mere attempts to describe disagreements about TZM from other parts of the internet.
Here is another one.
[archive.installgentoo.net]
Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:23:28 2011 No.2439266 [Report] [Reply] [Original]
Here is some very important information for people supporting The Venus Project. Also to others who understand Sustainability, Systems ecology, Peak Oil and interested in REAL alternatives instead of the bullshit moralistic, cult that is RBE, TVP, TZM, ABC or for fucks sake whatever bullshit they have. I am a man of science and when I found this out, it disgusted me how these people used honestly great intellectual, scientific information and twisted into their own philosophical, guru, cult bullshit. This information I’m presenting are for serious people who want a serious social design proposal and not some half thought, mainly copied and pasted research from the Venus Project. There is no doubt the polarizing effect of their bullshit. Most people agree with their analysis but disagree with their approach. Which is mainly why they’ve developed a solid cult following. I hope this presentation would destroy any relevance they have in any discussion anywhere and real solutions are presented instead. I will be presenting one such alternative solution.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:24:28 2011 No.2439273 [Report]
First
There was a group in the 20's called the Technical Alliance formed at Columbia University. They were curious of the effects technology had at the time. During World War 1, hundreds of thousands of men were removed from the industrial processes of North America and yet were still able to produce for themselves with the help of Technology. So, they decided to research how far Technology would take us as far as our social structure was concerned. The research and study by the Technical Alliance marked the first time in history anywhere in the world that a country or a Continent was objectively examined and analyzed on a functionally multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary basis, not as nations and their people have always been compared and rated--and still are--on the basis of their political economic/financial ideology, their military forces, and their philosophical premises. Instead, the Technical Alliance measured and assessed the extent of the land's natural resources of soil, metals, fuels, hydrology and its energy resources, its transport and communications and construction capabilities, its industrial and technological productive capacity, its available scientific, engineering, biological trained personnel--all to determine whether this Continental area could provide an equitably individualized high optimum standard of living for its population, and if so, how this could be brought about.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:25:28 2011 No.2439278 [Report]
Second
The group, later on, formed an organization called Technocracy Incorporated. They did this to protect the original research and design planned for North America. It was and still is a nonpolitical, nonsectarian research and educational organization. In 1933, M. King Hubbert and Howard Scott, with the help of many other technocrats wrote the 23 lesson Technocracy Study Course. The course could be used to outline the purpose of and research done by technocracy, and be used as a plan of action for groups wanting to create a Technate or Technocracy when the Price System collapsed. The basic information contained in the course were, the rudiments of science, the scientific basis that make up our complex social activities (ecology, biophysical analysis, etc.), analysis of the Price System (Growth, Mechanization, distribution etc.), and the scientific social design presented in the last two lessons of the course. All this was the original thesis of the Technical Alliance.
>For all of you morons calling it a monetary system just goes to show the stupidity of your “original” ideas. The correct term is PRICE SYSTEM. It is used widely in ECONOMICS to describe the very thing you are arguing against.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:26:28 2011 No.2439282 [Report]
Third
The famous geoscientist known as M. King Hubbert who developed the Peak Oil theory helped add a few more relevant research and facts used at proving the Price System as an ineffective social construct.
Man Hours and Distribution, M. King Hubbert
[www.scribd.com]
>Here Hubbert proves how mechanization destroys jobs and therefore purchasing power in the Price System.
Hubbert's Prescription for Survival, A Steady State Economy
http:// mkinghubbert-technocracy.blogspot.com/
> Basically the same proposal that is presented in the Study Course, but still a very interesting read.
M. King Hubbert on the nature of Growth
[people.sunyit.edu]
01974%20Congressional%20Testimony.pdf
> M. King Hubbert’s Testimony on the congressional board in 1974 and how he proved energy was a central factor in our society and how growth is needed to be sustained, but is illogical and goes against the basic laws of thermodynamics. This information overlaps heavily with Biophysical Economics.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:26:28 2011 No.2439291 [Report]
Fourth Point
What does this have to do with TVP or ZM?
The Technocracy Study Course and The Venus Project are pretty similar. They both call for a new functional social design and present real solid research proving this. Much of the research presented in the Zeitgeist Movement Orientation guide is also pretty solid stuff. However, this is where the similarities end, and the Resource Based Economy and other moral, philosophical and cult bullshit they created begins. I want to explain the stupidity of RBE/TVP and the functional alternative of the Technate Design for North America, and let /sci decide which is more of a functional alternative.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:27:28 2011 No.2439300 [Report]
Fifth
The Technate Design
I assume most of you guys against TVP/RBE understand the utter stupid that is in their proposal. However, I want to outline what Techocracy Technate design is first, for those of you who don’t know the science based social design. First, if you want to really get into depth about the concept you should read the last two chapters of the Technocracy Study Course. There are various other interesting researches presented in the course, but for a quick understanding that is the essential place to look.
There are two very distinct parts of the design. There is the administration of science and an energy accounting statistical system (biophysical economics).
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:28:28 2011 No.2439306 [Report]
Sixth
The Science Administration
Basically, it is a meritocracy. People in their various places of knowledge and skill are voted amongst themselves to administer whatever skill, function, or purpose they have. It is similar to the concepts of Industrial Democracy and Workplace Democracy but not a definition of it.
Positions are filled based on the proven method of nomination from below and appointment from above. For example, if a position were vacated for whatever reason, then the people immediately below that position would nominate candidates from among their ranks for the position.
Then the managers from the rank above the position would choose from those candidates the person most qualified for the job.
This is the method that is most often used in the technical portions of present organizations, and is based on competence.
Competence of the person is determined by the consistent operation of the technology involved.
If such machinery should fail to operate within acceptable parameters, then the person responsible would be quickly removed and replaced with someone who could perform the job adequately.
In short, the administration operates as an open source system, where collaboration of groups organize together and decide collectively, by consensus, using facts, knowledge, research(science) to administer Technology to society in a humanitarian, secular way, hence the name Technocracy.
The major difference between TVP/ZM is they think in some dogmatic objective science. Claiming algorithms developed, by who, are used in making decisions in their model. That has to be the dumbest fucking idea I have ever come across. I can’t believe they actively promote that bullshit, but then again, they are a cult. So they are centrally planned economy, whereas, Technocracy Technate is not. I will explain further in the energy accounting system of the Technate Design.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:29:28 2011 No.2439313 [Report]
Seventh
The Energy Accounting Statistical System
If you’ve taken ecology and know of it, you’d understand the importance of understanding energy flows and thermodynamics, the history by which came from Willard Gibbs. He was a major influence on the research done by the Technical Alliance and their thesis. Energy accounting uses Biophysical Economics. Not some cockamamie made up term as “resource based economy”. Biophysical economics has major academic participation. Look it up.
This method records the Energy used to produce and distribute goods and services consumed by citizens in a Technate. Energy certificates unlike money are used in a Technate for accounting purposes only. Unlike money or currencies, units of energy cannot be saved or earned, and will be distributed evenly among a populace. The number of units given to each citizen would be calculated by determining the total productive capacity of the technate and dividing it equally, after basic costs of running the infrastructure are considered.
In energy accounting the Technate would use information of natural resources, industrial capacity and citizen’s consuming habits to determine how much of any good or service is being consumed by the populace, so that it would balance production with consumption.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:31:28 2011 No.2439327 [Report]
Eighth (continued from energy accounting system)
The use of 'ENERGY CREDITS' is not described in the design of the Technate
The energy certificate is an energy accounting system only.
There is no such use of it as a CREDIT.
If one has credit, then Q must follow P and thus one must also have DEBIT.
The energy certificate does NOT replace Money. It has NO VALUE at all. It cannot be saved, Hoarded, or traded. Its only use in the Technate is as an energy accounting system and production and distribution accounting of all goods and service produced.
The mere attachment to the Energy Certificate to Credit, debt, or money i.e. medium of exchange is totally erroneous and false. Therefore it is not technocracy.
This Technocratic system is referred to as Energy Accounting using Energy certificates. Technocrats point out that energy accounting is not rationing; it is a way to distribute abundance and track demand. Everyone would receive an equal amount of energy certificates which would far exceed the ability of the consumer to use. Anything short of that is a Price System.
They wrote that the system must do the following things:
"Register on a continuous 24 hour-per-day basis the total net conversion of energy.
"By means of the registration of energy converted and consumed, make possible a balanced load.
"Provide a continuous inventory of all production and consumption
"Provide a specific registration of the type, kind, etc., of all goods and services, where produced and where used [Scott, Howard et al, Technocracy Study Source, p. 232]
The energy certificate can be updated as a Distribution Card today, and the possibility of ordering certain goods through the computer or internet can be used.
The difference with RBE is that NOTHING is analyzed or distributed equitably. Apparently all you have to do is order shit over the computer and you get it….
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:32:28 2011 No.2439333 [Report]
ninth(LAST)
Isn’t this a centrally planned economy?
TVP/ZM is a centrally planned economy by the used of an AI or some other retarded shit they are trying to cook up. Anyway, Technocracys energy accounting statistical system would distribute using available consumption rates of the population. So you “vote” when you consume….so it is a DECENTRALLY PLANNED ECONOMY.
Please post this ANYWHERE so a real alternative can go out there and not this Cult bullshit that is TVP or ZM and thanks for reading…please participate in discussion forums here
http:// technocracy.drupalgardens.com.forum
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:41:28 2011 No.2439384 [Report]
Bump this shit
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:42:28 2011 No.2439388 [Report]
Bump?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:49:28 2011 No.2439439 [Report]
if this had anything to do with a discussion on the merits of a technocratic society, i wouldn't sage it.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:49:28 2011 No.2439441 [Report]
Shamless Self BUMP
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:58:28 2011 No.2439500 [Report]
>>2439439
What the hell does that mean? Bump this if you agree then.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:22:28 2011 No.2439632 [Report]
What...not one response from any TZM or anybody else? No question?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:27:28 2011 No.2439657 [Report]
How do you kill everyone that doesn't agree? Or how do you plan on accomplishing this?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:28:28 2011 No.2439660 [Report]
>>2439632
I'm checking out your site, babylumps.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:29:28 2011 No.2439668 [Report]
>>2439660
... and the link didn't work even when I removed the space
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:41:28 2011 No.2439705 [Report]
>>2439657
There were many possibilities for transition. The general consensus was once the Price System collapsed, then something to this scale would have to be used as a functional alternative. We as a society have only benefited from technology and access to cheap energy. Growth is demanded in a Price System, so it can't go on forever. Peak Oil is already here. This is the reason why the organization is non political and non sectarian, only an education and research group. They new it would a tall order to convince people to implement this.
This is why FEMA was developed by technocrats as a transition tool in the event of a crash. The structure of FEMA before Bush changed it was exactly as envisioned by Technocrats.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 19:42:28 2011 No.2439711 [Report]
>The Technocracy Study Course and The Venus Project are pretty similar
>fucking retarded tzm/tvp are cult dipshits
Im getting mixed signals here OP. And further, I happen to know TZM and Technocracy affiliates are on pretty communicable terms, at least in the northwest.
The single biggest point of contention being the institutionalization of a meritocracy, which is a major concern to those worried about concentration of power and influence.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:46:28 2011 No.2439724 [Report]
>>2439657
There were also a few other different ideas, such as Total Conscription.
There is also the energy input labeling project. It's purpose was to get as many people and organizations to label the energy usage of whatever their product was.
[carbonlabeling.org]
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:50:28 2011 No.2439745 [Report]
>>2439711
You are confusing retarded technocrats who don't understand the purpose of the Technate Design, they also with to change major aspects of it. So I don't know what you mean by technocrats are communicating with ZM...because those people are most likely involved with a few groups who wish to change much of what was written in the study course.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:54:28 2011 No.2439761 [Report]
>>2439711
There are groups in Europe and from the north east who were involved in the organization, but were booted because of what they were doing. So there is absolutely no connection to this material I presented and ZM or any other 'technocrats' who claim to be in communication with ZM.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 19:55:28 2011 No.2439762 [Report]
>>2439745
Oh, sorry.
I didn't realize there were entire organizations of Technocrats who could be classified as "retards".
How much is your membership fee, by the way?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:02:28 2011 No.2439799 [Report]
>>2439762
So, I assume you may be one of them? You seemed to be pretty knowledgeable about the certain schisms involved in the current movement. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked me such questions.
Yes, I honestly think they aren't very bright people. The information presented in the study course is pretty simple.Unfortunately, they seemed to have confused it and wish to 'change' certain things. If they have any contact with ZM, that should definitely indicate red flags about their knowledge.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:10:28 2011 No.2439825 [Report]
this system does not take into account greed, there is no failsafe for monopolization of command positions
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:13:28 2011 No.2439841 [Report]
OP would do well to try to convey his info in a clear manner, free from derogatory comments like
>hurr TVP/ZM they're retards
>bulshit
It makes it hard to take you srsly. It also sheds a very immature light on everything you post
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:20:28 2011 No.2439868 [Report]
>>2439825
hmmm, that is an interesting argument, and it has been somewhat addressed by technocrats by using a retirement age of 45 as an idea, but this isn't set in stone.
However, to state it is a failed concept because of that simple argument is pretty stupid. Especially after considering all the facts and research that contribute to the Price System demise and increased social instability that arises from it.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:21:28 2011 No.2439877 [Report]
>>2439841
Okay, I can lighten up on that.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 20:25:28 2011 No.2439893 [Report]
File: 25 KB, 200x225, Hobbes.jpg [View same] [iqdb]
>>2439799
>make long-ass reply post
>response fucking where?
>down the rabbit hole
>such is life is soviet 4chan
Okay. Doing this again.
Im not a part of any group, its just that I like to research a matter before I talk about it, which is why you'll not find me in a theoretical physics thread beyond expressing interest or fascination.
On the other hand, given you seem to equate everyone not in your group with "retards", I'd likely fall in there somewhere.
Im actually more interested in the particular differences of your TT group, and the Technocrats Im familiar with.
Like, for instance, how do you intend to enact a technical meritocracy and prevent the corruption inherent to a system of currency exchange?
It seems if there's ONE given in such a system, it's the inevitable consolidation of power, wealth, and influence. Does your group have no interest in egalitarianism, or... ?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:29:28 2011 No.2439910 [Report]
all systems today are pretty bad, mainly because the consolidation of power is inevadable, domocracy to republic, socialism to communism, over all I'm for technocracy, but it has to be applied right or not at all.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:36:28 2011 No.2439946 [Report]
File: 5 KB, 239x258, Ignore.png [View same] [iqdb]
>>2439877
Sorry, Op. Damage is done. I am neither Tech nor TVP. However, I am anti dickholes that cant post something intellectual without ruining it by tarnishing it with their own ego, insecurities and general dick demeanor.
In summation, noone will take you srsly on such an adult topic untill you can communicate like one.
You do the techs a diservice by writing like you do and make TVP look better in comparison.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:38:28 2011 No.2439961 [Report]
>>2439306
>The major difference between TVP/ZM is they think in some dogmatic objective science. Claiming algorithms developed, by who, are used in making decisions in their model. That has to be the dumbest fucking idea I have ever come across. I can’t believe they actively promote that bullshit, but then again, they are a cult.
THANK YOU FOR BEING SANE
This was ALWAYS my primary objection. There's a massive gaping hole where the system of "who writes the algorithms and what makes him so smart and trustworthy" is completely missing. It would just turn into another Soviet Union.
I'm much more willing to accept this proposal than ZM bullshit.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:42:28 2011 No.2439980 [Report]
>>2439910
>>2439893
As I've said before, there were many plans of action for a transition. I don't claim to be of any particular one. I'm only interested in present the accurate information presented in the study course. As is the purpose of the group itself as well. The people would have to decide, if not, and social unrest develops in a collapse, maybe there will be a military action. I wouldn't know nor can guess at how it would be implemented.
>Like, for instance, how do you intend to enact a technical meritocracy and prevent the corruption inherent to a system of currency exchange?
Your question doesn't make sense. The technate design is not a price system construct. If the question is asking about corruption, I wouldn't know what to say. Only that the system is open source and usually if statistics and information was off, I'm sure that would be investigated by someone.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:46:28 2011 No.2440004 [Report]
It seems I have insulted quite a bit of people connected to ZM/TVP.
I'm sorry, you don't have to post, but this is my own personal opinion. They are a cult. My language doesn't have to be pretty for logic to be understood. If you disregard anything I wrote on the basis of that, you are not a person of science.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:48:28 2011 No.2440021 [Report]
the main question we should be asking about this proposed system is who is holding the guns and what do they want?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:49:28 2011 No.2440030 [Report]
>>2440004
OP's an idiot. An idiot with copypasta at best
This last post just confirmed it. I shudder at the thought of the techs having someone like you trying to relay their info.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:51:28 2011 No.2440041 [Report]
>>2440030
My post here, I am pro techs btw
i am anti OP
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 20:52:28 2011 No.2440046 [Report]
>>2439980
Right, and therein Im seeing another similarity-
That fundamentally the "decisions" made are not arbitrary, they are arrived at.
In this systems approach, there is no room for corruption as we know it, as "policy", such as it will be, is a matter of verifiable, quantifiable data. This allows for a system of holographically empirical decisions, not based on opinion, cultural relevancy, or religious interpretation.
That which is self-evident will be seen as such, and must render results that can be reproduced at every level.
Getting closer?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:53:28 2011 No.2440050 [Report]
>>2440030
What are you talking about? I'm right here talking, no copy pasta. All the stuff written above was written by me. Did you read it?
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:35:28 2011 No.2440262 [Report]
Ok let's get down to it. You cannot call people that dont follow your same beliefs "retards", infact the very act says a great deal about your own retardation, OP.
Second, do not umbrella all of TZM/TVP's info as "bullshit"
>There is no doubt the polarizing effect of their bullshit.
and then state
>They both call for a new functional social design and present real solid research proving this. Much of the research presented in the Zeitgeist Movement Orientation guide is also pretty solid stuff.
Next we'll deal with OP's very mature approach to starting an intelligent discussion
>I hope this presentation would destroy any relevance they have
Not very open minded, OP. Why is this your aim?
>I want to explain the stupidity of RBE/TVP and the functional alternative of the Technate Design for North America, and let /sci decide which is more of a functional alternative.
Clearly that is not your aim. You are here for people to agree with you. Otherwise you would not make such a biased statement. Hurr durr, one method is stoopid and the other is awesomeo, which one is better. /sci/?
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:37:28 2011 No.2440275 [Report]
Next, Let's deal with your use of the word "cult". Why is this a cult, OP? I think somewhere along the line your logical reasoning failed and your ego kicked in. It doesnt take a scientist to realise why they have amassed such a following. Lecture tours, Books, THREE films that have gone viral, reaching millions. So according to you, those millions are part of a "cult" and are "retarded" for agreeing with a method without seeing, let alone being aware of any other?
All I know is, if I was pro tvp and knew nothing of the techs, after reading your posts and the info is conveyed I would not want to know more.
In summation, Lrn2adult. Otherwise I give you a 4/10...troll harder, faggot.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:41:28 2011 No.2440293 [Report]
>>2440275
They ask you to stop thinking, and let someone else take over. Red flags everywhere.
Tell me this: In the Zeitgeist scenario, who designs and programs the control algorithms?
Even worse, who chooses the "human happiness" metric? That's a human value-judgment; science can't pick it for you.
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:42:28 2011 No.2440302 [Report]
inb4 zeitard
I see flaws and I see benefits, like with anything. Difference is, I'm an adult about it. This is also why I choose not to discuss such matters with an 18 yr old, fresh outta high school pseudo "man of science".
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 21:48:28 2011 No.2440321 [Report]
>>2440293
Chill man, he's honestly trying to help you communicate better. I suggest you take his advice.
Further, you should read Sam Harris for some insight into your latter question of subjective value systems and what science may perhaps have to say about that.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:50:28 2011 No.2440324 [Report]
>>2440321
I'm familiar with Sam Harris. But are you honestly pretending that picking the "human happiness function" is NOT a human value judgment?
And EVEN IF IT IS, who do you trust to describe it accurately? This is rife for abuse.
My greatest consolation is that there are very few Zeitgeist zealots. Meanwhile, I'll be supporting things that will actually *work* to preserve the long-term future of humanity.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:59:28 2011 No.2440350 [Report]
>>2440302
I guess I must have activated your rage machine. There's no doubt you are a part of or connected to ZM/TVP for you to put so much emotions into those posts.
I just vented my opinions that are very sensible. They are a cult because they use personalities in Fresco and Joseph to promote their ideas. They use Agitprop as a means to gather 'followers' and present their information is the weirdest of ways.
I'm against their proposal and the way they present information that disproves the Price System as a social construct. I thought I made that clear in my presentation.
Re: The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 08, 2012 04:40AM
[archive.installgentoo.net]
Anonymous Sat Jan 29 23:49:28 2011 No.2440958 [Report]
the main points of the movie:
1. earth has finite resources
2. in order for our species to sustain itself, we need to start using our resources efficiently.
3. capitalism does not use resources efficiently, capitalism is only concerned with cost efficiency.
4. computers, technology and mechanization are replacing most labor jobs, and will continue to do so.
5. money markets create debt, and paired with capitalism, resource inefficiency, and mechanization, is resulting in massive waste of resources, and massive inequalities in wealth.
6. massive inequalities of wealth cause and intensify biological, sociological and genetic problems in society.
7. rather than inflating our way into temporary growth, which increases the speed and inefficiency in which we use our finite resources, we should stop using a monetary system that creates wealth inequalities.
8. a society that not only accepts but encourages increased mechanization and technology can mange the resources in such a manner that everyone should have a base standard of living, centered around the intelligent use of resources.
9. this society will in theory be relatively egalitarian, since private property is obsolete. everything will be provided, and things like politics will be cast aside, since politics does not decide by facts, but by consensus. most crime should be theoretically eliminated because when humans are allowed to develop without current stresses, they should be more mentally balanced.
10. people will still be required to work, but people will be incentivized to work because any benefit to society will also be a benefit to that person.
this is the tenets of ZM, TVP.
note: i don't believe humanity could eve
>> Scientist Sat Jan 29 23:51:28 2011 No.2440970 [Report]
>>2440958
That seems reasonable up until 6. Once it started discussing its pipedream plans, then it becomes total bullshit.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 23:56:28 2011 No.2441003 [Report]
>>2440970
well, im "pessimistic", in that i don't see the wealthy and powerful ever relinquishing their power so that they are only as equal as anyone else.
never mind a Stalin figure taking over because of a lack of a sovereign force to defend the system.
i like the discussion the movie and ideas creates. unfortunately, one side screams communism or strawmans the argument, or the other side turns the ideas of the movie into a pretty poem.
my view is a socialism/social democracy state that doesn't drop private wealthy and property, but regulates it enough to stop the top 1% from turning the bottom 99% into serfs...and starts using our resources in an intelligent way.
>> Scientist Sat Jan 29 23:56:28 2011 No.2441007 [Report]
>>2441003
Anyone who can say
>10. people will still be required to work, but people will be incentivized to work because any benefit to society will also be a benefit to that person.
is an insufferable retard or an evil troll.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 23:57:28 2011 No.2441012 [Report]
Go away.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:00:28 2011 No.2441024 [Report]
>>2441007
that is what the MOVIE states.
notice, my ordered list simplifies the movie into points of discussion, not truths that i personally hold.
also, jonas sulk gave away his vaccine for free, when he could have become unimaginably wealthy. via your logic, was he insufferably retarded, or just the biggest troll in the history of man?
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:02:28 2011 No.2441034 [Report]
>>2441024
Let me fix that. Anyone who can honestly claim
>10. people will still be required to work, but people will be incentivized to work because any benefit to society will also be a benefit to that person.
is true with a straight face is an insufferable retard or an evil troll.
Does this mean that random acts of kindness cannot occur, like Jonas Sulk? No. But it does mean that most people act selfishly enough that incentive to help out society will unimaginably fail to provide personal incentive. It's called the tragedy of the commons, otherwise known as the freeloader problem.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:02:28 2011 No.2441035 [Report]
Why should sustainability be our goal? Why should we give up consuming in the present so that we can consume sometime in the future? Why is that better?
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:04:28 2011 No.2441041 [Report]
>mfw i thought the venus project was a plan to colonize venus, rather than some bullshit newage hippy shit.
;_;
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:07:28 2011 No.2441062 [Report]
>>2441034
Well, to ZM, there will be a very limited amount of human labor involved. I believe, they estimate 3% of the population would be required to work (again, I don't even believe humanity can get anywhere near that stage).
Since a lot of the work required by humans would be related to science, I think that enough people would be interested in research and development to continue progress.
>>2441035
Well, we don't have to stop consuming at the pace we're at now. We're alive, our descendants are not. But if you think that humanity as a species should continue, and that if it should continue, it should do so in a better condition than we do now, then we need to stop wasting resources that are finite.
>>2441041
i think there is a fbf thread going on /b/ right now. you should find that more to your liking than this thread.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:11:28 2011 No.2441079 [Report]
>>2441062
>Well, we don't have to stop consuming at the pace we're at now. We're alive, our descendants are not. But if you think that humanity as a species should continue, and that if it should continue, it should do so in a better condition than we do now, then we need to stop wasting resources that are finite.
I don't care; I'll be dead. If I would live longer my time preference would be lower.
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:12:28 2011 No.2441083 [Report]
>>2441062
>Well, to ZM, there will be a very limited amount of human labor involved. I believe, they estimate 3% of the population would be required to work (again, I don't even believe humanity can get anywhere near that stage).
Pipedreams and flagrantly false facts everywhere.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:15:28 2011 No.2441096 [Report]
>>2441079
herp to the derp, bro. thanks for sharing.
>>2441083
you seem to be interested in discussion. which facts are flagrantly false? otherwise, just label it as communism and type a lol afterwards.
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:16:28 2011 No.2441103 [Report]
>>2441096
What? Only need 3% of a population to work in order to supply for the rest? Oh fuck no. I don't know what magic land you live in, but it requires a shitton more than 3 people to supply enough food for a hundred, even with modern tech, given the current distribution of people and tech.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:20:28 2011 No.2441126 [Report]
>>2441103
>>2441103
3% is an estimate, and I would assume it is based on technological advancement.
not to mention, there is a certain point where adding labor to a job doesn't increase quality or quantity of performance. while 3 people aren't going to be able to perform the amount of farming required to feed 100 people, once you reach numbers of 100 million, do you think you could get by with 3 million farmers?
also, its just an estimate that i'm trying to remember from the movie, which i watched a week or so ago. i could be incorrect on that...estimate...
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:21:28 2011 No.2441129 [Report]
>>2441103
Well thats the thing. TVP live in fantasy land. While a fully automated labor forced would probably be sweet and bring about HUGE social change, it's not gonna happen any time in the near future. Maybe in 100-200 years, and thats being generous.
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:22:28 2011 No.2441136 [Report]
>>2441129
Ok. You're right that this is a minor point. The bigger fish to fry is that they want to eliminate money, which makes them immediately uber retarded, especially as they haven't presented a workable alternative.
Anonymous Sat Jan 29 23:49:28 2011 No.2440958 [Report]
the main points of the movie:
1. earth has finite resources
2. in order for our species to sustain itself, we need to start using our resources efficiently.
3. capitalism does not use resources efficiently, capitalism is only concerned with cost efficiency.
4. computers, technology and mechanization are replacing most labor jobs, and will continue to do so.
5. money markets create debt, and paired with capitalism, resource inefficiency, and mechanization, is resulting in massive waste of resources, and massive inequalities in wealth.
6. massive inequalities of wealth cause and intensify biological, sociological and genetic problems in society.
7. rather than inflating our way into temporary growth, which increases the speed and inefficiency in which we use our finite resources, we should stop using a monetary system that creates wealth inequalities.
8. a society that not only accepts but encourages increased mechanization and technology can mange the resources in such a manner that everyone should have a base standard of living, centered around the intelligent use of resources.
9. this society will in theory be relatively egalitarian, since private property is obsolete. everything will be provided, and things like politics will be cast aside, since politics does not decide by facts, but by consensus. most crime should be theoretically eliminated because when humans are allowed to develop without current stresses, they should be more mentally balanced.
10. people will still be required to work, but people will be incentivized to work because any benefit to society will also be a benefit to that person.
this is the tenets of ZM, TVP.
note: i don't believe humanity could eve
>> Scientist Sat Jan 29 23:51:28 2011 No.2440970 [Report]
>>2440958
That seems reasonable up until 6. Once it started discussing its pipedream plans, then it becomes total bullshit.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 23:56:28 2011 No.2441003 [Report]
>>2440970
well, im "pessimistic", in that i don't see the wealthy and powerful ever relinquishing their power so that they are only as equal as anyone else.
never mind a Stalin figure taking over because of a lack of a sovereign force to defend the system.
i like the discussion the movie and ideas creates. unfortunately, one side screams communism or strawmans the argument, or the other side turns the ideas of the movie into a pretty poem.
my view is a socialism/social democracy state that doesn't drop private wealthy and property, but regulates it enough to stop the top 1% from turning the bottom 99% into serfs...and starts using our resources in an intelligent way.
>> Scientist Sat Jan 29 23:56:28 2011 No.2441007 [Report]
>>2441003
Anyone who can say
>10. people will still be required to work, but people will be incentivized to work because any benefit to society will also be a benefit to that person.
is an insufferable retard or an evil troll.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 23:57:28 2011 No.2441012 [Report]
Go away.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:00:28 2011 No.2441024 [Report]
>>2441007
that is what the MOVIE states.
notice, my ordered list simplifies the movie into points of discussion, not truths that i personally hold.
also, jonas sulk gave away his vaccine for free, when he could have become unimaginably wealthy. via your logic, was he insufferably retarded, or just the biggest troll in the history of man?
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:02:28 2011 No.2441034 [Report]
>>2441024
Let me fix that. Anyone who can honestly claim
>10. people will still be required to work, but people will be incentivized to work because any benefit to society will also be a benefit to that person.
is true with a straight face is an insufferable retard or an evil troll.
Does this mean that random acts of kindness cannot occur, like Jonas Sulk? No. But it does mean that most people act selfishly enough that incentive to help out society will unimaginably fail to provide personal incentive. It's called the tragedy of the commons, otherwise known as the freeloader problem.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:02:28 2011 No.2441035 [Report]
Why should sustainability be our goal? Why should we give up consuming in the present so that we can consume sometime in the future? Why is that better?
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:04:28 2011 No.2441041 [Report]
>mfw i thought the venus project was a plan to colonize venus, rather than some bullshit newage hippy shit.
;_;
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:07:28 2011 No.2441062 [Report]
>>2441034
Well, to ZM, there will be a very limited amount of human labor involved. I believe, they estimate 3% of the population would be required to work (again, I don't even believe humanity can get anywhere near that stage).
Since a lot of the work required by humans would be related to science, I think that enough people would be interested in research and development to continue progress.
>>2441035
Well, we don't have to stop consuming at the pace we're at now. We're alive, our descendants are not. But if you think that humanity as a species should continue, and that if it should continue, it should do so in a better condition than we do now, then we need to stop wasting resources that are finite.
>>2441041
i think there is a fbf thread going on /b/ right now. you should find that more to your liking than this thread.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:11:28 2011 No.2441079 [Report]
>>2441062
>Well, we don't have to stop consuming at the pace we're at now. We're alive, our descendants are not. But if you think that humanity as a species should continue, and that if it should continue, it should do so in a better condition than we do now, then we need to stop wasting resources that are finite.
I don't care; I'll be dead. If I would live longer my time preference would be lower.
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:12:28 2011 No.2441083 [Report]
>>2441062
>Well, to ZM, there will be a very limited amount of human labor involved. I believe, they estimate 3% of the population would be required to work (again, I don't even believe humanity can get anywhere near that stage).
Pipedreams and flagrantly false facts everywhere.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:15:28 2011 No.2441096 [Report]
>>2441079
herp to the derp, bro. thanks for sharing.
>>2441083
you seem to be interested in discussion. which facts are flagrantly false? otherwise, just label it as communism and type a lol afterwards.
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:16:28 2011 No.2441103 [Report]
>>2441096
What? Only need 3% of a population to work in order to supply for the rest? Oh fuck no. I don't know what magic land you live in, but it requires a shitton more than 3 people to supply enough food for a hundred, even with modern tech, given the current distribution of people and tech.
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:20:28 2011 No.2441126 [Report]
>>2441103
>>2441103
3% is an estimate, and I would assume it is based on technological advancement.
not to mention, there is a certain point where adding labor to a job doesn't increase quality or quantity of performance. while 3 people aren't going to be able to perform the amount of farming required to feed 100 people, once you reach numbers of 100 million, do you think you could get by with 3 million farmers?
also, its just an estimate that i'm trying to remember from the movie, which i watched a week or so ago. i could be incorrect on that...estimate...
>> Anonymous Sun Jan 30 00:21:28 2011 No.2441129 [Report]
>>2441103
Well thats the thing. TVP live in fantasy land. While a fully automated labor forced would probably be sweet and bring about HUGE social change, it's not gonna happen any time in the near future. Maybe in 100-200 years, and thats being generous.
>> Scientist Sun Jan 30 00:22:28 2011 No.2441136 [Report]
>>2441129
Ok. You're right that this is a minor point. The bigger fish to fry is that they want to eliminate money, which makes them immediately uber retarded, especially as they haven't presented a workable alternative.
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