If TZM has a secure following and a future, why be so upset at a few dissenting voices, eh?
From what I have witnessed in this discussion, I get a feeling that if TZM and its faithful were to run society, life would get grim very quickly, because dissent would be shouted down.
No thanks. I dont want that kind of world, so thats why anyone considering TZM as an outlet for their idealism, time and money should have a chance to witness how hard TZM enthusiasts come over here to shout down mere attempts to describe disagreements about TZM from other parts of the internet.
Here is another one.
[
archive.installgentoo.net]
Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:23:28 2011 No.2439266 [Report] [Reply] [Original]
Here is some very important information for people supporting The Venus Project. Also to others who understand Sustainability, Systems ecology, Peak Oil and interested in REAL alternatives instead of the bullshit moralistic, cult that is RBE, TVP, TZM, ABC or for fucks sake whatever bullshit they have. I am a man of science and when I found this out, it disgusted me how these people used honestly great intellectual, scientific information and twisted into their own philosophical, guru, cult bullshit. This information I’m presenting are for serious people who want a serious social design proposal and not some half thought, mainly copied and pasted research from the Venus Project. There is no doubt the polarizing effect of their bullshit. Most people agree with their analysis but disagree with their approach. Which is mainly why they’ve developed a solid cult following. I hope this presentation would destroy any relevance they have in any discussion anywhere and real solutions are presented instead. I will be presenting one such alternative solution.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:24:28 2011 No.2439273 [Report]
First
There was a group in the 20's called the Technical Alliance formed at Columbia University. They were curious of the effects technology had at the time. During World War 1, hundreds of thousands of men were removed from the industrial processes of North America and yet were still able to produce for themselves with the help of Technology. So, they decided to research how far Technology would take us as far as our social structure was concerned. The research and study by the Technical Alliance marked the first time in history anywhere in the world that a country or a Continent was objectively examined and analyzed on a functionally multidisciplinary and interdisciplinary basis, not as nations and their people have always been compared and rated--and still are--on the basis of their political economic/financial ideology, their military forces, and their philosophical premises. Instead, the Technical Alliance measured and assessed the extent of the land's natural resources of soil, metals, fuels, hydrology and its energy resources, its transport and communications and construction capabilities, its industrial and technological productive capacity, its available scientific, engineering, biological trained personnel--all to determine whether this Continental area could provide an equitably individualized high optimum standard of living for its population, and if so, how this could be brought about.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:25:28 2011 No.2439278 [Report]
Second
The group, later on, formed an organization called Technocracy Incorporated. They did this to protect the original research and design planned for North America. It was and still is a nonpolitical, nonsectarian research and educational organization. In 1933, M. King Hubbert and Howard Scott, with the help of many other technocrats wrote the 23 lesson Technocracy Study Course. The course could be used to outline the purpose of and research done by technocracy, and be used as a plan of action for groups wanting to create a Technate or Technocracy when the Price System collapsed. The basic information contained in the course were, the rudiments of science, the scientific basis that make up our complex social activities (ecology, biophysical analysis, etc.), analysis of the Price System (Growth, Mechanization, distribution etc.), and the scientific social design presented in the last two lessons of the course. All this was the original thesis of the Technical Alliance.
>For all of you morons calling it a monetary system just goes to show the stupidity of your “original” ideas. The correct term is PRICE SYSTEM. It is used widely in ECONOMICS to describe the very thing you are arguing against.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:26:28 2011 No.2439282 [Report]
Third
The famous geoscientist known as M. King Hubbert who developed the Peak Oil theory helped add a few more relevant research and facts used at proving the Price System as an ineffective social construct.
Man Hours and Distribution, M. King Hubbert
[
www.scribd.com]
>Here Hubbert proves how mechanization destroys jobs and therefore purchasing power in the Price System.
Hubbert's Prescription for Survival, A Steady State Economy
http:// mkinghubbert-technocracy.blogspot.com/
> Basically the same proposal that is presented in the Study Course, but still a very interesting read.
M. King Hubbert on the nature of Growth
[
people.sunyit.edu]
01974%20Congressional%20Testimony.pdf
> M. King Hubbert’s Testimony on the congressional board in 1974 and how he proved energy was a central factor in our society and how growth is needed to be sustained, but is illogical and goes against the basic laws of thermodynamics. This information overlaps heavily with Biophysical Economics.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:26:28 2011 No.2439291 [Report]
Fourth Point
What does this have to do with TVP or ZM?
The Technocracy Study Course and The Venus Project are pretty similar. They both call for a new functional social design and present real solid research proving this. Much of the research presented in the Zeitgeist Movement Orientation guide is also pretty solid stuff. However, this is where the similarities end, and the Resource Based Economy and other moral, philosophical and cult bullshit they created begins. I want to explain the stupidity of RBE/TVP and the functional alternative of the Technate Design for North America, and let /sci decide which is more of a functional alternative.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:27:28 2011 No.2439300 [Report]
Fifth
The Technate Design
I assume most of you guys against TVP/RBE understand the utter stupid that is in their proposal. However, I want to outline what Techocracy Technate design is first, for those of you who don’t know the science based social design. First, if you want to really get into depth about the concept you should read the last two chapters of the Technocracy Study Course. There are various other interesting researches presented in the course, but for a quick understanding that is the essential place to look.
There are two very distinct parts of the design. There is the administration of science and an energy accounting statistical system (biophysical economics).
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:28:28 2011 No.2439306 [Report]
Sixth
The Science Administration
Basically, it is a meritocracy. People in their various places of knowledge and skill are voted amongst themselves to administer whatever skill, function, or purpose they have. It is similar to the concepts of Industrial Democracy and Workplace Democracy but not a definition of it.
Positions are filled based on the proven method of nomination from below and appointment from above. For example, if a position were vacated for whatever reason, then the people immediately below that position would nominate candidates from among their ranks for the position.
Then the managers from the rank above the position would choose from those candidates the person most qualified for the job.
This is the method that is most often used in the technical portions of present organizations, and is based on competence.
Competence of the person is determined by the consistent operation of the technology involved.
If such machinery should fail to operate within acceptable parameters, then the person responsible would be quickly removed and replaced with someone who could perform the job adequately.
In short, the administration operates as an open source system, where collaboration of groups organize together and decide collectively, by consensus, using facts, knowledge, research(science) to administer Technology to society in a humanitarian, secular way, hence the name Technocracy.
The major difference between TVP/ZM is they think in some dogmatic objective science. Claiming algorithms developed, by who, are used in making decisions in their model. That has to be the dumbest fucking idea I have ever come across. I can’t believe they actively promote that bullshit, but then again, they are a cult. So they are centrally planned economy, whereas, Technocracy Technate is not. I will explain further in the energy accounting system of the Technate Design.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:29:28 2011 No.2439313 [Report]
Seventh
The Energy Accounting Statistical System
If you’ve taken ecology and know of it, you’d understand the importance of understanding energy flows and thermodynamics, the history by which came from Willard Gibbs. He was a major influence on the research done by the Technical Alliance and their thesis. Energy accounting uses Biophysical Economics. Not some cockamamie made up term as “resource based economy”. Biophysical economics has major academic participation. Look it up.
This method records the Energy used to produce and distribute goods and services consumed by citizens in a Technate. Energy certificates unlike money are used in a Technate for accounting purposes only. Unlike money or currencies, units of energy cannot be saved or earned, and will be distributed evenly among a populace. The number of units given to each citizen would be calculated by determining the total productive capacity of the technate and dividing it equally, after basic costs of running the infrastructure are considered.
In energy accounting the Technate would use information of natural resources, industrial capacity and citizen’s consuming habits to determine how much of any good or service is being consumed by the populace, so that it would balance production with consumption.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:31:28 2011 No.2439327 [Report]
Eighth (continued from energy accounting system)
The use of 'ENERGY CREDITS' is not described in the design of the Technate
The energy certificate is an energy accounting system only.
There is no such use of it as a CREDIT.
If one has credit, then Q must follow P and thus one must also have DEBIT.
The energy certificate does NOT replace Money. It has NO VALUE at all. It cannot be saved, Hoarded, or traded. Its only use in the Technate is as an energy accounting system and production and distribution accounting of all goods and service produced.
The mere attachment to the Energy Certificate to Credit, debt, or money i.e. medium of exchange is totally erroneous and false. Therefore it is not technocracy.
This Technocratic system is referred to as Energy Accounting using Energy certificates. Technocrats point out that energy accounting is not rationing; it is a way to distribute abundance and track demand. Everyone would receive an equal amount of energy certificates which would far exceed the ability of the consumer to use. Anything short of that is a Price System.
They wrote that the system must do the following things:
"Register on a continuous 24 hour-per-day basis the total net conversion of energy.
"By means of the registration of energy converted and consumed, make possible a balanced load.
"Provide a continuous inventory of all production and consumption
"Provide a specific registration of the type, kind, etc., of all goods and services, where produced and where used [Scott, Howard et al, Technocracy Study Source, p. 232]
The energy certificate can be updated as a Distribution Card today, and the possibility of ordering certain goods through the computer or internet can be used.
The difference with RBE is that NOTHING is analyzed or distributed equitably. Apparently all you have to do is order shit over the computer and you get it….
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:32:28 2011 No.2439333 [Report]
ninth(LAST)
Isn’t this a centrally planned economy?
TVP/ZM is a centrally planned economy by the used of an AI or some other retarded shit they are trying to cook up. Anyway, Technocracys energy accounting statistical system would distribute using available consumption rates of the population. So you “vote” when you consume….so it is a DECENTRALLY PLANNED ECONOMY.
Please post this ANYWHERE so a real alternative can go out there and not this Cult bullshit that is TVP or ZM and thanks for reading…please participate in discussion forums here
http:// technocracy.drupalgardens.com.forum
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:41:28 2011 No.2439384 [Report]
Bump this shit
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:42:28 2011 No.2439388 [Report]
Bump?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:49:28 2011 No.2439439 [Report]
if this had anything to do with a discussion on the merits of a technocratic society, i wouldn't sage it.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:49:28 2011 No.2439441 [Report]
Shamless Self BUMP
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 18:58:28 2011 No.2439500 [Report]
>>2439439
What the hell does that mean? Bump this if you agree then.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:22:28 2011 No.2439632 [Report]
What...not one response from any TZM or anybody else? No question?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:27:28 2011 No.2439657 [Report]
How do you kill everyone that doesn't agree? Or how do you plan on accomplishing this?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:28:28 2011 No.2439660 [Report]
>>2439632
I'm checking out your site, babylumps.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:29:28 2011 No.2439668 [Report]
>>2439660
... and the link didn't work even when I removed the space
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:41:28 2011 No.2439705 [Report]
>>2439657
There were many possibilities for transition. The general consensus was once the Price System collapsed, then something to this scale would have to be used as a functional alternative. We as a society have only benefited from technology and access to cheap energy. Growth is demanded in a Price System, so it can't go on forever. Peak Oil is already here. This is the reason why the organization is non political and non sectarian, only an education and research group. They new it would a tall order to convince people to implement this.
This is why FEMA was developed by technocrats as a transition tool in the event of a crash. The structure of FEMA before Bush changed it was exactly as envisioned by Technocrats.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 19:42:28 2011 No.2439711 [Report]
>The Technocracy Study Course and The Venus Project are pretty similar
>fucking retarded tzm/tvp are cult dipshits
Im getting mixed signals here OP. And further, I happen to know TZM and Technocracy affiliates are on pretty communicable terms, at least in the northwest.
The single biggest point of contention being the institutionalization of a meritocracy, which is a major concern to those worried about concentration of power and influence.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:46:28 2011 No.2439724 [Report]
>>2439657
There were also a few other different ideas, such as Total Conscription.
There is also the energy input labeling project. It's purpose was to get as many people and organizations to label the energy usage of whatever their product was.
[
carbonlabeling.org]
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:50:28 2011 No.2439745 [Report]
>>2439711
You are confusing retarded technocrats who don't understand the purpose of the Technate Design, they also with to change major aspects of it. So I don't know what you mean by technocrats are communicating with ZM...because those people are most likely involved with a few groups who wish to change much of what was written in the study course.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 19:54:28 2011 No.2439761 [Report]
>>2439711
There are groups in Europe and from the north east who were involved in the organization, but were booted because of what they were doing. So there is absolutely no connection to this material I presented and ZM or any other 'technocrats' who claim to be in communication with ZM.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 19:55:28 2011 No.2439762 [Report]
>>2439745
Oh, sorry.
I didn't realize there were entire organizations of Technocrats who could be classified as "retards".
How much is your membership fee, by the way?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:02:28 2011 No.2439799 [Report]
>>2439762
So, I assume you may be one of them? You seemed to be pretty knowledgeable about the certain schisms involved in the current movement. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked me such questions.
Yes, I honestly think they aren't very bright people. The information presented in the study course is pretty simple.Unfortunately, they seemed to have confused it and wish to 'change' certain things. If they have any contact with ZM, that should definitely indicate red flags about their knowledge.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:10:28 2011 No.2439825 [Report]
this system does not take into account greed, there is no failsafe for monopolization of command positions
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:13:28 2011 No.2439841 [Report]
OP would do well to try to convey his info in a clear manner, free from derogatory comments like
>hurr TVP/ZM they're retards
>bulshit
It makes it hard to take you srsly. It also sheds a very immature light on everything you post
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:20:28 2011 No.2439868 [Report]
>>2439825
hmmm, that is an interesting argument, and it has been somewhat addressed by technocrats by using a retirement age of 45 as an idea, but this isn't set in stone.
However, to state it is a failed concept because of that simple argument is pretty stupid. Especially after considering all the facts and research that contribute to the Price System demise and increased social instability that arises from it.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:21:28 2011 No.2439877 [Report]
>>2439841
Okay, I can lighten up on that.
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 20:25:28 2011 No.2439893 [Report]
File: 25 KB, 200x225, Hobbes.jpg [View same] [iqdb]
>>2439799
>make long-ass reply post
>response fucking where?
>down the rabbit hole
>such is life is soviet 4chan
Okay. Doing this again.
Im not a part of any group, its just that I like to research a matter before I talk about it, which is why you'll not find me in a theoretical physics thread beyond expressing interest or fascination.
On the other hand, given you seem to equate everyone not in your group with "retards", I'd likely fall in there somewhere.
Im actually more interested in the particular differences of your TT group, and the Technocrats Im familiar with.
Like, for instance, how do you intend to enact a technical meritocracy and prevent the corruption inherent to a system of currency exchange?
It seems if there's ONE given in such a system, it's the inevitable consolidation of power, wealth, and influence. Does your group have no interest in egalitarianism, or... ?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:29:28 2011 No.2439910 [Report]
all systems today are pretty bad, mainly because the consolidation of power is inevadable, domocracy to republic, socialism to communism, over all I'm for technocracy, but it has to be applied right or not at all.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:36:28 2011 No.2439946 [Report]
File: 5 KB, 239x258, Ignore.png [View same] [iqdb]
>>2439877
Sorry, Op. Damage is done. I am neither Tech nor TVP. However, I am anti dickholes that cant post something intellectual without ruining it by tarnishing it with their own ego, insecurities and general dick demeanor.
In summation, noone will take you srsly on such an adult topic untill you can communicate like one.
You do the techs a diservice by writing like you do and make TVP look better in comparison.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:38:28 2011 No.2439961 [Report]
>>2439306
>The major difference between TVP/ZM is they think in some dogmatic objective science. Claiming algorithms developed, by who, are used in making decisions in their model. That has to be the dumbest fucking idea I have ever come across. I can’t believe they actively promote that bullshit, but then again, they are a cult.
THANK YOU FOR BEING SANE
This was ALWAYS my primary objection. There's a massive gaping hole where the system of "who writes the algorithms and what makes him so smart and trustworthy" is completely missing. It would just turn into another Soviet Union.
I'm much more willing to accept this proposal than ZM bullshit.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:42:28 2011 No.2439980 [Report]
>>2439910
>>2439893
As I've said before, there were many plans of action for a transition. I don't claim to be of any particular one. I'm only interested in present the accurate information presented in the study course. As is the purpose of the group itself as well. The people would have to decide, if not, and social unrest develops in a collapse, maybe there will be a military action. I wouldn't know nor can guess at how it would be implemented.
>Like, for instance, how do you intend to enact a technical meritocracy and prevent the corruption inherent to a system of currency exchange?
Your question doesn't make sense. The technate design is not a price system construct. If the question is asking about corruption, I wouldn't know what to say. Only that the system is open source and usually if statistics and information was off, I'm sure that would be investigated by someone.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:46:28 2011 No.2440004 [Report]
It seems I have insulted quite a bit of people connected to ZM/TVP.
I'm sorry, you don't have to post, but this is my own personal opinion. They are a cult. My language doesn't have to be pretty for logic to be understood. If you disregard anything I wrote on the basis of that, you are not a person of science.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:48:28 2011 No.2440021 [Report]
the main question we should be asking about this proposed system is who is holding the guns and what do they want?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:49:28 2011 No.2440030 [Report]
>>2440004
OP's an idiot. An idiot with copypasta at best
This last post just confirmed it. I shudder at the thought of the techs having someone like you trying to relay their info.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:51:28 2011 No.2440041 [Report]
>>2440030
My post here, I am pro techs btw
i am anti OP
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 20:52:28 2011 No.2440046 [Report]
>>2439980
Right, and therein Im seeing another similarity-
That fundamentally the "decisions" made are not arbitrary, they are arrived at.
In this systems approach, there is no room for corruption as we know it, as "policy", such as it will be, is a matter of verifiable, quantifiable data. This allows for a system of holographically empirical decisions, not based on opinion, cultural relevancy, or religious interpretation.
That which is self-evident will be seen as such, and must render results that can be reproduced at every level.
Getting closer?
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 20:53:28 2011 No.2440050 [Report]
>>2440030
What are you talking about? I'm right here talking, no copy pasta. All the stuff written above was written by me. Did you read it?
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:35:28 2011 No.2440262 [Report]
Ok let's get down to it. You cannot call people that dont follow your same beliefs "retards", infact the very act says a great deal about your own retardation, OP.
Second, do not umbrella all of TZM/TVP's info as "bullshit"
>There is no doubt the polarizing effect of their bullshit.
and then state
>They both call for a new functional social design and present real solid research proving this. Much of the research presented in the Zeitgeist Movement Orientation guide is also pretty solid stuff.
Next we'll deal with OP's very mature approach to starting an intelligent discussion
>I hope this presentation would destroy any relevance they have
Not very open minded, OP. Why is this your aim?
>I want to explain the stupidity of RBE/TVP and the functional alternative of the Technate Design for North America, and let /sci decide which is more of a functional alternative.
Clearly that is not your aim. You are here for people to agree with you. Otherwise you would not make such a biased statement. Hurr durr, one method is stoopid and the other is awesomeo, which one is better. /sci/?
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:37:28 2011 No.2440275 [Report]
Next, Let's deal with your use of the word "cult". Why is this a cult, OP? I think somewhere along the line your logical reasoning failed and your ego kicked in. It doesnt take a scientist to realise why they have amassed such a following. Lecture tours, Books, THREE films that have gone viral, reaching millions. So according to you, those millions are part of a "cult" and are "retarded" for agreeing with a method without seeing, let alone being aware of any other?
All I know is, if I was pro tvp and knew nothing of the techs, after reading your posts and the info is conveyed I would not want to know more.
In summation, Lrn2adult. Otherwise I give you a 4/10...troll harder, faggot.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:41:28 2011 No.2440293 [Report]
>>2440275
They ask you to stop thinking, and let someone else take over. Red flags everywhere.
Tell me this: In the Zeitgeist scenario, who designs and programs the control algorithms?
Even worse, who chooses the "human happiness" metric? That's a human value-judgment; science can't pick it for you.
>> OPsucksR0b0tC0ck Sat Jan 29 21:42:28 2011 No.2440302 [Report]
inb4 zeitard
I see flaws and I see benefits, like with anything. Difference is, I'm an adult about it. This is also why I choose not to discuss such matters with an 18 yr old, fresh outta high school pseudo "man of science".
>> OilwhatOil? !tkJh0c3Ss2 Sat Jan 29 21:48:28 2011 No.2440321 [Report]
>>2440293
Chill man, he's honestly trying to help you communicate better. I suggest you take his advice.
Further, you should read Sam Harris for some insight into your latter question of subjective value systems and what science may perhaps have to say about that.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:50:28 2011 No.2440324 [Report]
>>2440321
I'm familiar with Sam Harris. But are you honestly pretending that picking the "human happiness function" is NOT a human value judgment?
And EVEN IF IT IS, who do you trust to describe it accurately? This is rife for abuse.
My greatest consolation is that there are very few Zeitgeist zealots. Meanwhile, I'll be supporting things that will actually *work* to preserve the long-term future of humanity.
>> Anonymous Sat Jan 29 21:59:28 2011 No.2440350 [Report]
>>2440302
I guess I must have activated your rage machine. There's no doubt you are a part of or connected to ZM/TVP for you to put so much emotions into those posts.
I just vented my opinions that are very sensible. They are a cult because they use personalities in Fresco and Joseph to promote their ideas. They use Agitprop as a means to gather 'followers' and present their information is the weirdest of ways.
I'm against their proposal and the way they present information that disproves the Price System as a social construct. I thought I made that clear in my presentation.