I am hoping someone on here who knows something about the Branch Davidians can answer a question that has been in my mind since watching the movie [i:ea85385643]Waco: The Rules of Engagement[/i:ea85385643].

That movie strongly implies that there were real questions as to whether or not David Koresh was practicing any sort of “coercive persuasion” on his followers or if in fact, they were members of their own free will.

I ask because I am working on a book chapter that discusses aspects of cult mind control. From the sources that I have found so far, I am not getting a very clear consensus on that issue as far as the Davidian followers are concerned. (The word from the Government agencies that were involved in the whole Waco tragedy seem to hold to the theory that Koresh's followers [i:ea85385643]were[/i:ea85385643] "brainwashed," while other sources take just the opposite tack).

Can someone share what they know about that question or point my browser to some links on the subject?

Thank you.

Labyrinth 13:

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note [www.culteducation.com]

Rules of Engagement is not a credible source.

You are right to call it a "movie" rather than a "documentary." It was really more like a work of fiction based upon sensational conspiracy theories, than a fact-driven documentary.

The followers of Vernon Howell (David Koresh) could have walked out at any time during the 51-day standoff. They chose instead to kill themselves and their children.

What would you call that?

"Undue influence"?

What is the title and who is the publisher of the book you are working on?

Thank you for the links. (I should have noted that I had already read through much of the material on this website about Waco and was looking for additional links from an off-site source).

I'm not sure I agree 100% with you that [i:3149bef2b1]Rules of Engagement[/i:3149bef2b1] was not a credible source, but I would agree that it certainly appeared to be propaganda of a sort. While watching the film, I did keep in mind that what I was seeing was an edited version of events, but I also saw and heard many things in that film that led me to beleive that [i:3149bef2b1]both sides[/i:3149bef2b1] of the Waco issue were simply being stubborn in their beliefs that each was on the "right" side of the truth. I suppose that one could level the charge of promoting propaganda at the U.S. government as much as at the Davidians.

The reason why I asked the question that I did here was because in my mind, that film doesn't seem to point as much to something you could clearly call "mind control" as it does to what I saw as plain old stubborness, macho posturing and misguided passions about being "American" from both sides. (But don't get the wrong impression here as I am not really a sympathizer to either side of the issue).

However, the link you supplied for the article by Tim Madigan (See No Evil: Blind Devotion and Bloodshed in David Koresh's Holy War) seems to have been written by someone who very clearly implies that Koresh had "programmed" his followers in the classic sense. Do you happen to know what the sources of information Mr. Madigan relied on for that article?

Thanks.

P.S. My current book is still in manuscript form and has not been offered to any publisher at present.

Quote
rrmoderator
Labyrinth 13:

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note [www.culteducation.com]

Rules of Engagement is not a credible source.

You are right to call it a "movie" rather than a "documentary." It was really more like a work of fiction based upon sensational conspiracy theories, than a fact-driven documentary.

The followers of Vernon Howell (David Koresh) could have walked out at any time during the 51-day standoff. They chose instead to kill themselves and their children.

What would you call that?

"Undue influence"?

What is the title and who is the publisher of the book you are working on?

Tim Madigan interviewed me for that chapter in his book.

He also covered the Waco Davidian standoff for the Fort Worth Star Telegram as events unfolded during 1993.

Let's get what you call "the 'right' side of the truth" in context though.

Vernon Howell's (aka David Koresh) "'right' side of the truth" was that he was the "Lamb of God" and entitled to do pretty much anything he decided upon, such as having sex with children, stockpiling and manufacturing illegal weapons and killing federal law enforcement officers.

The position of the BATF and FBI was that of law enforcement doing a job and nothing more. They may have made mistakes, but were simply carrying out their duty as madated.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Vernon Howell on the other hand was a psychopath.

See [www.culteducation.com]

What is the focus or working title of the manuscript you are completing?

Quote
rrmoderator
Let's get what you call "the 'right' side of the truth" in context though.

Vernon Howell's (aka David Koresh) "'right' side of the truth" was that he was the "Lamb of God" and entitled to do pretty much anything he decided upon, such as having sex with children, stockpiling and manufacturing illegal weapons and killing federal law enforcement officers.

Thank you again for your reply.

That is what I am trying to get at here: what exactly is the source for the information that Koresh was doing all the things you noted above? Are you saying that it was you who had first hand information that all of those things were taking place? (Again, I am not trying to defend either side’s position here, but am simply trying to make sure that the sources for the information I rely on is not coming from anyone whose only intent is to promote one side of the issue or the other, i.e., either anti-Koresh/pro-government or vice versa. To date, all of the information I have read seems to reflect either one side’s “propaganda” or the other’s. What I am looking for is a completely objective source, if one in fact exists. And please understand that I am not at all implying that there is any bias on your part, because I know nothing about you). Do you see what I am driving at?

Quote

What is the focus or working title of the manuscript you are completing?

The focus of the entire manuscript is varied, but one chapter deals with issues such as “brainwashing” and the influence of cult leaders on their followers, particularly in instances where crimes or other heinous acts were committed. I have already included a discussion of the Rev. Jim Jones (People's Temple), Marshall Applewhite (Heaven's Gate), Luc Jouret ( Solar Temple) and Shoko Asahara (Aum Sect) and I wanted to add the Branch Davidians into that discussion as well.

But not knowing as much as I would like about the central issue I have raised about the Branch Davidians, I wanted to make sure that I wasn’t simply lumping that group in with the others where the evidence of “coercive persuasion” appears to be beyond question.

My information was through first hand experience, i.e. working professionally with Davidians and/or their families.

I handled two interventions with Davidians, one is the focus of the chapter within "See No Evil" by Tim Madigan. That intervention took place in 1992.

My work with affected families began around 1988.

What is the focus of your book and its working title?

Quote
rrmoderator
My information was through first hand experience, i.e. working professionally with Davidians and/or their families.

I handled two interventions with Davidians, one is the focus of the chapter within "See No Evil" by Tim Madigan. That intervention took place in 1992.

My work with affected families began around 1988.

Thank you, that helps very much. My only question remaining at this point is, do you think that it is would be fair to say at this point that there are two types of Davidians now, i.e., those who have been “deprogrammed” and who are willing to come clean about what Koresh was really doing and those who are still in thrall with him and in denial about the facts you stated earlier?

Quote

What is the focus of your book and its working title?

The focus of the book is a discussion of non-fiction, true crime stories with an emphasis on events that happened in the late 60’s to current times. I have no working title at present. (I have a similar book that is due out this year. This latest project of mine is still very much in its infancy).

Only two Davidians were actually "deprogrammed."

Many Davidians left the group over the years due to failed prophecies and/or Howell's bad behavior.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Those Davidians who still remain loyal to Koresh to this day are few, but essentially they must feel that after they invested so much personally (some lost family members) it would to be too painful to admit that he was a fraud.

"True believers" within many groups called "cults" often engage in this type of denial about the actual history and/or dynamics of a group, which can be seen as a facet of their indoctrination and/or attributed to their sense of emotional equity.

I have been reading the information on the links that you supplied and found much there that says to me, yes, Koresh's followers most certainly seem to have been subjected to what is popularly called "brainwashing."

What gave me the most doubt about that to begin with was listening to the testimony of several of Koresh's followers in the movie. In one case, a gentleman (whose name escapes me at present, but who was a person who described how he narrowly escaped burning to death) flatly denied that he was "brainwashed" and that his decision to stay with Koresh was a personal choice. I suppose that one could argue that what I was witnessing was just how far such coercive persuasion can really go.

Thank you again for the info. This site and message board have been a huge help to me.

Quote
rrmoderator
Only two Davidians were actually "deprogrammed."

Many Davidians left the group over the years due to failed prophecies and/or Howell's bad behavior.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Those Davidians who still remain loyal to Koresh to this day are few, but essentially they must feel that after they invested so much personally (some lost family members) it would to be too painful to admit that he was a fraud.

"True believers" within many groups called "cults" often engage in this type of denial about the actual history and/or dynamics of a group, which can be seen as a facet of their indoctrination and/or attributed to their sense of emotional equity.

Labyrinth13:

You may be referring to Clive Doyle, who was burned, but survived the fire.

Mr. Doyle lost family members in that tragedy and must have known the cirucumstances, i.e. Koresh ordered that the compound be burned down and expected his followers to stay and die.

Nevertheless Mr. Doyle and other Davidian survivors have denied this.

However, the forensic and infrared evidence along with the audiotaped Davidian discussions picked up by bugging devices offer overwhelming evidence.

Again, both their emotional equity and "brainwashing" seem to have outweighed reality and led to denial.