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justaman22
Huh? Ejaculation is the worst thing ever? I mean, c'mon. I never stated it like that, you largely took my words out of context.

Your words? I was talking about SAW's philosophy.

Have you read his books, or only listened to the podcasts?

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justaman22
Don't you think it's funny that tv is pushing sex BIG TIME and pornography is only 3 mouse clicks away on the internet.

And if a man matures, he gets past that stuff. He realizes that he would rather feel and be intimate with a real woman than be titillated by video, and as long as he is using the latter as a substitute he is not feeling his real lack, and as long as he doesn't feel his real lack, he has no incentive to get better: to become more social, to learn to talk to women, to accept his feelings toward women and learn to express them courageously, to accept the possibility of rejection as he puts himself out there, etc.

Such a man who refuses to mature in this way settles for some easy way out (perhaps a woman he privately despises), and then is harrassed by an insatiable need for porn and fantasy because his woman doesn't actually please him. He'd rather masturbate than have sex with her, etc. Whereas the man who does the work to mature finds new joy in the company of others, improved confidence, a lighter heart. So in this way porn is a substitute for real work, real growth.

It's the same as with every form of escapism. Every time you substitute for the possibility of meaningful satisfaction a past pleasure that no longer has any meaning for you, you're engaging in escapism and stunting your growth. One of the big vices of our civilization is escapism, running away from ourselves, remaining at the same level perpetually.

Do you see what I mean? Sexual asceticism is not the only way out of the porn problem. Sexuality affirmation and doing what it takes to find real satisfaction in that realm is another path. And, IMO, the right one. And the harder one, as it really puts you to the test, and there is real possibility of failure.

Or, I mean, our sex-crazed culture could be a big, organized conspiracy too.

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justaman22
I'm by no means scared of death, I welcome it.

That's a fine attitude. The question is, do you also welcome life? A man needs religion, the conquest of death, in order to truly live, otherwise that skeleton remains in life's closet and man can only try to hide from it. But with the conquest of death comes a new lease on life, a man can live more fully and intensely than ever before. And that's the real meaning of religion. The life, not the death.

If you haven't read SAW's books, I highly recommend them. You will find the podcasts do a great job of hiding the man's more insane side and hiding the stuff that really freaks you out. I feel like to be "by no means scared of death" means you haven't really grasped what SAW was saying. Or you've achieved enlightenment already, in which case what do I know? Why are you trying to convince us plebs anyway? But if you aren't fully enlightened, then you are in all likelihood going to the same hell I'm going to, no matter how much "Gnosticism" you drink.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2013 10:53PM by EverVigilant.

A question from an outsider:

Did SAW (or his senior teachers) ever encourage aspirants to decorate their living spaces or work spaces in a particular manner?

Dress a particular way (eg color choice, materials, jewelry) or was that your free choice.

This is not the same as, on your own initiative, becoming fond of a particular aesthetic. Many who follow Zen or yoga come to love Japanese or Chinese or Indian motifs and will, on their own initiative, select elements of these to decorate their living spaces or attire.

I am referring to set ups where the group or its leader apply pressure, overt or sublte, imposing the cult aesthetic upon those who want to gain or retain favor.

If you were pushed to do a sort of SAW approved room decoration protocol, feel free to describe it here:

[forum.culteducation.com]

(Note: a small, discreet altar doesnt qualify. I am referring to having a decor that one was forbidden to discuss, except to follow initiates, or the burden of having an entire room full of stuff that you could not discuss with visitors. A picture of SAW or some other guru which you had to conceal and took effort to conceal, might be another such item)

There is a thread discussion on room decoration/habitat management over here just in case esotericists do have special responsibilities in this area:

Corboy,

No, SAW's thing was really more of a philosophy than a standard manipulative cult.

People are attracted to it because through the course of life they realize they don't like the direction they're going and have the intuition that they must change somehow. Then they read (or listen to) SAW and hear the same thing, and they feel they've finally found something which clicks.

The one retreat I went on was also very pleasant. It was disciplined (scheduled meditations, classes, etc.) but all of us were there for that to begin with, and we all felt a common bond, that we were in this together, and there was fun down-time, and it was actually very joyful.

My eventual problem was with the philosophy itself, which I started to suspect was life-narrowing, was actually harming me rather than helping me. There's a reason this thread is entitled "Debunking" because the SAW thing is really about the philosophy, not a cult per se. As far as I know about the man biographically, SAW actually believed what he said.

The philosophy itself can be destructive, as some have seen, by stunting their growth and alienating them from their true needs. People who buy into it often start any needs of theirs as "egos" which must be destroyed. Basically any wish or desire becomes suspect with a really hostile suspicion, becomes an enemy to be fought. The idea is that every desire is a separate autonomous "demon" and they all disconnect you from and threaten your inmost being. For any desire, SAW has the solution, and the solution is always "Kill it!" (which, by the way, cannot be done if you've been ejaculating, which is where that comes in).

It is not hard to see a certain danger in this, the danger of turning a person into a personality-less, soulful bore. I think the philosophy attracts perfectionist types, those who get very anxious at any visible sign of imperfection in themselves. And this feeds right into it, essentially being the opposite of what these types really need for psychological health.

In any case, I'm a "proof is in the pudding" guy. When I see an overman who got there using SAW's philosophy, maybe I'll start paying attention again. The guy who ran the retreat, supposedly very advanced in SAW's practices, seemed like a haunted man, a real downer.

But to answer your question, no, there are no secret prescriptions for dress or setting up one's home. There are suggestions (placing pentagrams here or there) but nothing which ought not be shown to others.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2013 01:08AM by EverVigilant.

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EverVigilant
People who buy into it often start any needs of theirs as "egos" which must be destroyed.

Too late for another edit: this should read "often start seeing any needs".

"Do you see what I mean? Sexual asceticism is not the only way out of the porn problem. Sexuality affirmation and doing what it takes to find real satisfaction in that realm is another path. And, IMO, the right one. And the harder one, as it really puts you to the test, and there is real possibility of failure. "

I agree with you, it's one of many road blocks on the path to growth. Being sexual/ spiritual beings, I would say that the joys found from pornography are that of mainly lust which is that of the ego. Sure it feels good, only to the senses, and that lustful joy ultimately results in baggage that one has to work through.

"If you were pushed to do a sort of SAW approved room decoration protocol, feel free to describe it here:"

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here Corboy. In the podcasts I've been listening to I've never heard a single one say that I need to go out and decorate my room, or myself with anything. The only thing of the real most greatest importance they teach is meditation. Meditation and the examination of the self in order to become liberated from pain and suffering. Most people do not take the time to examine themselves and most people surely do not take time in the day to meditate, I mean truly meditate, for even just 5 minutes.

If you're a part of one of these groups that are advocating that you purchase certain things and decorate yourself and your surroundings in a certain way in order to gain favor with a group at large, then I would say you were listening to a group that was doing things purely for their own personal gains. If by joining or listening to something whose purpose it is to teach you something spiritual, and you find yourself only seeking their favor or approval then I think you've missed the mark and are off track. If your intuition also tells you that a certain group is having you do certain things because they want your energy and your approval to empower them, then by all means I would have to say get the heck out.

I've only listened to the podcasts. I've yet to read any of SAW's books, but I do plan on purchasing the pistis Sophia. When I read this book, just as I read most spiritual material, I try to view it with my inner eye, my consciousness. Not so much my intellect. The same goes for the bible, the nag hammadi, the koran, egyptian texts, and any spiritual material that IMO should not be read at face value. We can look at the world at large and see where people who to take something like the bible at face value, and these people just go to church on sundays and live their lives as if they get to go to the laundry for one day out of the week and clean their spirit only to exit the church and continue living like an animal with the same pride, vanity, desires, hatred, gluttony, and laziness they had before they entered.

Please, don't get me wrong here, I'm am no saint whatsoever. I will venture a guess that there are those out there that have corrupted the teachings of SAW, but there are also those (whom I've found and even the gnosticteachings website is not the end all be all) who also try to help with the teachings presented by SAW. SAW may have studied at a jesuit school, but that doesnt mean all jesuits are bad. Just because some Catholic priests are bad, doesnt mean they all are, and that can be applied to all spiritual practices found world wide.

If you've found anything in the teachings of SAW, or have listened to the gnosticteachings site and found something good and worthwhile... just chalk it up to something you can add to your toolbox. Something you can work with to make yourself a better person, and if you can walk away a better individual... that's what it's all about.

>If you've found anything in the teachings of SAW, or have listened to the gnosticteachings site and found something good and worthwhile... just chalk it up to something you can add to your toolbox. Something you can work with to make yourself a better person, and if you can walk away a better individual... that's what it's all about.

And that's the right attitude to anything.

For my part, SAW's books pulled me out of a death spiral and put me on my feet. I found him in late December 2010. Spent about 6 months fearfully committed to his philosophy, kicked all my worst vices and learned a lot about myself. But something was off.

My first post on this thread, in July 2011, was around that 6-month-mark, and was my personal attempt to process everything that had happened to me.

And as I said, something was off. I became more eccentric, more alienated from my fellow man than I already was. Even people whom I respected, who I thought had a shot at understanding, seemed to brush me off when I brought this stuff up. I had no "Gnostic" friends in my area, and so I ended up with this deep, closeted secret around the people I did spend time with.

It would be simple, and quite "Gnostic," to chalk this all up to everybody's egos preventing them from seeing the truth, and my reservations as a sign of my own weakness, a preference to follow the crowd rather than to boldly seek the truth wherever it leads.

But it turned out I had deeper reservations than the social problem, that my very search for truth itself was leading me to question SAW more and more. When a man claims to be the most enlightened person alive, one would think he would be free of really flagrant errors. He claimed that Nietzsche was once a Gnostic master and then "fell" (I guess he orgasmed?). It takes only a cursory glance at Nietzsche's work and biography to see the absurdity in this, to see the complexity that was Nietzsche's life. Pure "Gnostic master" he was not, ever. Throughout his life he could not control a dependence on his sister and an addiction to drugs. He was actually something of a neurotic wreck. Intelligent neurotics often produce great works if they get something of a handle on themselves, as did Nietzsche.

My point is not about Nietzsche, though. SAW's books are filled with questionable statements about people, as if he is trying to take anybody who wrote something profound and claim him for the "Gnostic" movement. The response to any challenge on this front becomes "I know because I saw it in the astral realm."

I started to get the feeling that SAW actually craved validation for his philosophy. Further, he had a need to take everything that was good about everything in the world and mash it all together into something coherent. The result is an exceedingly grandiose claim (total syncretism of all religions) that reduces to something comparatively narrow (All's you gotta do is **** without ****ing, meditate on your egos, pray to annihilate them, and do something nice for people).

Just some stuff to chew on. Like you said, take the good and discard the rest. SAW himself said not to follow him (something about a signpost). Make good on that by questioning the man himself.

Maybe you'll find him less lacking than I did. Maybe you won't.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 03:59AM by EverVigilant.

Cheers to that EverVigilant. I'm 29 as well, but only began listening to this stuff as of late. Hey, that Sammy can't be all that bad if he, his teachings/ the teachings of old he showed the deep esoteric knowledges on helped you. There are truths to be found. Within and without. At the very least, as a true gnostic, we should be thankful for the crap life throws at us. It's because of all this crap (good and bad) that we get to live and find ourselves. :)

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EverVigilant

In any case, I'm a "proof is in the pudding" guy. When I see an overman who got there using SAW's philosophy, maybe I'll start paying attention again. The guy who ran the retreat, supposedly very advanced in SAW's practices, seemed like a haunted man, a real downer.
t .

EV, just interested in this comment. What was it specifically about this guy that made him seem haunted? Also do you recall his nationality?

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Sors
EV, just interested in this comment. What was it specifically about this guy that made him seem haunted? Also do you recall his nationality?

Probably the best way I can explain it is to say he was totally bought into SAW's philosophy, including all the pessimistic elements, that everybody's going to hell for millions of years unless they devote their lives to dissolving the egos. So his whole life revolved around it. The philosophy had become an ingrained element in his character.

There was one point at the retreat where we were all enjoying a meal, sharing our backgrounds and laughing, and then he comes in and says "Yes, it's good to laugh, but we came here for a reason" and started going on about the seriousness of the work to be done. Really morose tone, hard to convey in text. Literally the most serious person I have ever met. I got the feeling he lives his whole life in that particular emotional mode.

Which makes perfect sense given the philosophy, of course. That's the kicker with SAW's stuff, as a logical system it's consistent enough to be believable. The question is is it in fact the truth? If it is, then this guy is doing it absolutely right.

I do not know for sure his nationality, but I think he was American, and as far as I could tell he was white. (He wasn't the South American guy who had known SAW personally, who was also at the retreat).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2013 11:33PM by EverVigilant.

I left a message earlier about this, but it appears it was deleted. Can a moderator explain why?