Hey Sunshine,

Thanks for your posts. They are extremely helpful, especially when you ask "imagine if the LOA or the Silva method worked 100 percent of the time." The new age movement says it does and puts an all-positive spin on it, backing it up with their own selective evidence to support their claims and their own justification for why things are the way they are. That is part of the prlb.em.

To Stoic,

For the reasons given above, that's why it's so hard to think critically about these things. I only meant that at least I'm researching the backgrounds of these authors now (before, I didn't. Just took their word for everything.) The bologna detection kit is also difficult for me to understand (I was never great at science and found it dry and boring.) If it were in plain English, it'd be different. Also, when arguing a point, I tend to consider my side of the argument as credible/valid if no response or justification can be given to support their side of the discussion. Which leads to the second reason why these authors are difficult to snare: There is always a justification, which if you think about it long enough, you say to yourself, "well... when you put it like that, technically you'd be right, if you want to split hairs, I kinda see the logic in that (even if it's twisted)"

The article from Corboy was extremely helpful. Cults can't lose because they use your own intelligence against you. So when there is no justification for their side of a situation, or if they fail to come up with anything, that helps me identify red flags. If justification is given for their side of an argument, it si considerably more difficult for me to discredit them.

That is just how my brain works!

Sunshine: Thank you for the antecdotes on your experiences with the Silva method. That helps me draw parallels to other belief systems, so now I'm beginning to look at it as just another belief system, however crazy, that people believe.

I saw a documentary on youtube called Religulous" that was extremely helpful. It paralleled the new age with other religious beliefs and helped me do the same. If new age was not included in there, I tend to think it would be true. That's how my mind works. If it was just like any other crazy religious belief system, it would be documented as such. If new age was not included, it means it's true. Why else would it not be included?

I know that some of you are probably annoyed with me, but I am just being honest about how my mind works. Bit simplistic for some people, but there you are. I am just pointing out which posts are helpful, and which are not. And as most books are not available in Braille, I rely on other sources to get my information.

If cults and controversial religious movements are always right, how can anyone prove them wrong? And yet proving them wrong is exactly what you must do in order to not falll prey to them!

So I rely on antecdotes, the backgrounds of authors, and corrolations between various things to help me decide.

I was trying to do research on where new age beliefs (ascension, stargates, aliens walking among us Yikes! I used to believe this stuff?) came from, but of course I can find nothing. Except in support of the beliefs. Which is why I asked this board, who undoubtedly has an interest in, and is more knowledgeable about, science than I, to link me with some useful information.

Does anyone know where these beliefs came from? I've tried every google combination to no avail.

I am slowly starting to realize just how out-there some of the things I used to believe were, and now it embarrasses me to admit I used to believe this stuff!

Thank you so much Corboy. I don't know where you get your articles but they are an immense help to me. And if anyone on this board has any questions, and if I come across any interesting tidbits that might answer them, I will certainly post them. But I'm not there yet.

Brynhild,

'For the reasons given above, that's why it's so hard to think critically about these things.'

I gave the link to the baloney kit because it is helpful, at no time did I suggest that it was easy. ;-)

The language it is written in is plain English.

'Bit simplistic for some people, but there you are. I am just pointing out which posts are helpful, and which are not. And as most books are not available in Braille, I rely on other sources to get my information.'

Learning is about aquiring new ideas and methods to build on what you already have. Although the description of the scientific method may not seem to you to be in plain English, any unplain words can be looked up in a dictionary and, by doing some thinking, the meaning can be understood. Nobody else can do your own understanding for you.

Information is never neutral, all new information needs to be thought about before you decide whether it deserves any space in your belief system.

Google is your friend, at least for definitions.

For example:

[www.thefreedictionary.com]

and:

[www.thefreedictionary.com]

and:

[www.thefreedictionary.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2010 06:38PM by Stoic.

Hi Brynhild,

If what I wrote helps you or any other reader, that's a good thing. Too many people (not just New Wage gurus) are happy to play with our minds and make huge promises with the goal being not to help us, but to empty our minds so they can empty our bank accounts.

If there's one thing I have learned during my years on this planet it's the importance of listening to my intuition, my heart and my mind. I don't speak for anyone else on this board and other people might disagree, but this is what works for me.

I'll give you an example. This past summer I attended a Sahaja Yoga session at a local library. My intuitive red light started flashing while I was there. First of all they were very friendly. One person in particular was very pushy about having me and my partner attend their session while we were out in the main room in the library looking at DVDs. During the session and afterwards he singled me out and went out of his way to make me feel welcome and to encourage me to come back the following week.

This group s supposedly all about love and compassion, and yet he was telling me that it was important to eat meat, even after I told him I was a vegan for ethical reasons. The group's guru is from India and I would think that as a yoga practitioner/spiritual leader she would be encouraging and supporting her followers to abstain from meat and that people speaking on her behalf would do the same.

By the way, just like The New Kadampa Tradition there was a picture of their guru, Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi, in a prominent place for all attendees to see. (Years ago I attended a few NKT meditation sessions before doing some online research and deciding never to return.) What was especially weird about this Sahaja group was being told this photo gave off unique vibrations and therefore had special powers for anyone who looked upon this woman's face. While looking at a picture of someone I love and respect might make me feel all warm and fuzzy, I don't believe that looking at the smiling face of someone I have never met is going to have that much of an effect on me.

Because my intuition kicked in early on, I was more vigilant than usual about paying attention to what was going on, so no surprise my common sense was saying "no way does this make sense." That same day I got on my computer and did a quick search because as a truth seeker, I wanted the truth. Not spiritual cotton candy. Thanks to Google and the Rick Ross site I found out all kinds of things about this woman and her group. First of all she's an anti-Semite and second, parents are encouraged to send their children to a Sahaja school in Rome from the age of four! So much for her being a loving, compassionate person!

Having your very own built-in BS detector is essential. This way no matter where you go, who you encounter, it's with you. It's about seeking the truth (being on guard and doing your research), doing your best with the truth available to you and not causing harm to anyone (including yourself).

New Wage gurus are hypocrites. They talk about love and pretend to be loving with you at first, but it's part of the big sell because it is all about sales. Don't forget this is a big time money making machine! These seminars for Silva, etc. aren't priced so that single moms on welfare could afford them. They aren't interested in helping the people who most need help. They're after people with money who want to make more money and want to attract Mr. or Ms. Perfect. It's all target marketing and they don't care if you spend your last dime on their materials and seminars. And if you become injured or die while attending one of their retreats, oh well, there are always other bank accounts to empty. So much for love.

New Wage gurus also talk about not relying on our minds. Makes sense to me because if we use our minds, we will question things and see the cracks for what they are and as a result we will be less willing to part with our money.

New Wage gurus also emphasis the importance of intuition. I totally agree. If my intuition is whispering or screaming that something doesn't feel right (including what the latest Oprah author is spouting), I'll follow up by using my brain and doing research.

New Wage gurus are also big on coming up with big promises and if it's not working for you, then you don't want it badly enough or aren't doing it right. How convenient that they have more books, CDs and seminars to help you. Deepak Chopra lost me when I noticed that he had three slim volumes come out about the same time. One was about losing weight, another about insomnia and I forget what the third one was about. The info in all three was much the same. The people at Silva are no better. I recently ended up on one of their lists and was frequently bombarded with their friendly emails about their latest, greatest must have product. If the Silva method was so effective for so many things (as they claim), then why do you have to invest in yet more materials to make it work??? I can understand that methods can be improved upon, but it's all hard sell because after all they have lifestyles to support. If someone is too pushy or too friendly, I become suspicious. Another thing to remember, self-help and New Wage materials are like diet books. The reason they're so successful is because they aren't.

As a friend of mine has said "respect has to be earned." Before you believe someone and invest your time and money, it's up to them to earn your trust.

I hope what I wrote makes sense and is helpful. I haven't been getting enough sleep lately and am dealing with a cold.

Hey Stoic,

I do appreciate the bologna detection kit, but I can't understand it. The antecdotes and articles other posters here are giving me are much more helpful, and written in a way I can understand. I do not know what ad hoc, ad/post hominum, phallacies, etc. mean so I generally avoid articles with too much of that terminology. I'm just telling you what is the most easy-to-understand for me, that's all. If someone wrote that bologna detection kit with words I could understand, it would be easier for me to understand it, and then I would remember it.

It was a nice gesture, but for now is a bit TMI for me.

I'm a music teacher, and if I were explaining a concept to you, first I'd find out what, if anything, you knew at all about music. There is basic terminology that we as musicians understand, but if you are not a musician, rather than being shocked that you don't understand something, or telling you to look it up, I would try to tell you the definition in words you could understand, concepts you could easily grasp, so you could remember it. I'd tell you the definitions first, and then, after a few years, once you have a knowledge of basic definitions, then you can start looking stuff up for yourself because now you'd understand it. Know what I mean? That is how I teach my voice students. I start at the very beginning. Find out where they are first and then go from there, you know?


If something is helpful to me, it really does have to be easy. That's me. It may not be the rest of the human race, but that is me. The kit may be written in plain English for you, and for everyone else here, but it is not written that way for me.

But thank you for the gesture. I appreciate it all the same.

Anyway, hey Sunshine,

The examples from personal experience you gave are extremely helpful. If somebody is being welcoming and friendly, I take it as a good thing, and am not sure where the line is, because I myself am a friendly person (I hope) and wish to be treated as such. I will be more on guard next time. I always thought that new-wage (I love that term. It made me laugh. Who came up with it?) gurus always practiced what they preached, because if they didn't, why would they preach it???

I thought they were honest enough to say, "do as I say, not as I do. We're hypocrites but we don't want you to be, so don't be like us." I mean, if you're going to be a loving, compassionate, honest person, you'd be honest enough, or have the integrity enough, to admit that your lifestyle or the way you treat other people doesn't fit what you preach, and you would say, "I'm not fit to be a guru. I don't know what I'm talking about. You really shouldn't follow me."

It's almost laughable, you know, how all the gurus, and even those who claim not to be, are saying, "follow your intuition (except it'll be right when it comes to me). There's other people who'll take advantage of you out there, watch out for them (except me.) Most channeled information is inaccurate or given from a place of fear (except mine.)"

It's kinda funny how everyone says "there's other people, living or dead, who you must watch out for. But I'm not one of them, I'm from the light". There's a whole lotta people saying that. It's always somebody else who's the bad guy, never them. Or, as I'm sure you know, the new-wage movement has no concept of right and wrong. If you do have one, you're considered judgmental, and they say that's bad. Yet they say you have to have judgment to survive. It's almost as if they're saying, "you can have judgment for this but not for that. There are no rules except for the ones I make up. There are dire consequences but you're not supposed to be afraid. Fear is bad. Let's have a world without fear, we'd be so much better off. You're limitless but this physical world has limits. But you don't have limitations, and don't think for a second you're limited. Limitations are bad."

It's almost as if they don't know what they're talking about. Well why don't they just admit that then?

I think fear and doubt and limitations are a good thing, if you keep them in check. I wonder what this world would be like if nobody had any of those things. The gurus make it sound that the world would be much better, but I don't think so anymore.

I think my BS detector is coming in the mail piece by piece. Wish the box didn't say "some assembly required" though... Wish they made pocket-size ones!

'It's almost as if they don't know what they're talking about. Well why don't they just admit that then? '

Brynhild,

They very much do know what they are talking about and they use the words to bamboozle you. What they are banking on is that you don't know what they are talking about and will become confused enough to just swallow the nonsense, because it is easier to do that than to look up a word in a dictionary or check their concepts against a well-proven bull-shit detector.

Sorry to disappoint you, but all bull-shit detectors require assembly, even the very best baloney detection kits.

There are easy ways to learn things and painful ways to learn, some people never learn. Experience is a great teacher.
Gaining experience is another of those pesky things that you have to do for yourself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2010 04:13AM by Stoic.

Stoic,

I grew up in Christianity but found holes in that, so tried Paganism and was told, upon questioning it, that my beliefs were too fluffy and to go join the new age movement, which I did, but obviously found flaws in that. So I come here and am honest enough to ask for help, and when I am given information, I tell you what works for me and what doesn't. When I get information that does, I kindly thank the posters who have taken the time out of their busy schedules to post various articles, tidbits, things to look out for and their application (because sometimes I have trouble applying information), and quotes of particular note. If these things weren't pointed out, I'd never notice them.

And when a particular piece of information is specially helpful to other members on this board but I do not understand it, rather than toss it out, I politely ask if it can be explained to me in an easy-to-understand manner, because it obviously is immensely helpful to people here. If nobody benefited from it, it would not be here, and I would like something as valuable as a bologna detection kit to make sense to me, since it could deter someone from entering a future cult.

And the response I get is a harsh, ivory tower mentality of "do it yourself. If you don't understand something it's your fault."

If you've ever been involved in a cult, and you just got out and somebody spoke to you that way, how would you feel?

Intellect must be balanced with emotion, and the reasoning that not everybody knows how to do what some might consider to be basic skills, such as background checks and researching where beliefs come from, to aid in critical thinking. And when I do research on my own and cannot find information, I ask other people for aid, perhaps by relating their own personal experiences, perhaps by defining terms if I look them up and still fail to understand them, perhaps by directing me to various articles that they think would be of assistance, and asking feedback on how helpful or not a particular piece of information is.

I've never, with the exception of yourself, heard anyone tell another poster on here "here's an article. If you don't understand it it's your fault, and I'm not going to explain it to you." That's mean.

I would never in a million years take a student who's had traumatic performance experiences and just throw them onstage and say, "you can't perform because (insert reason?) Okay, just go out there and do it. It's painful but that's how you learn, so deal with it." I would never treat anyone that way.

Instead, I get them to a level where they have the confidence enough to go out and do it on their own. And that might take months, or years. Only then can they go onstage for the first time.

Brynhild,

In addition to using Google, I would suggest that you also learn to read what is written, and not what you yourself read into what is written.

Good luck in gaining your own experience. I will not be bothering with you again.