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Indiaspark
ohn you are clearly part of this weird group and will defend your guru at all costs.

I never said I wasn't part of this group, so what is your point? And you are clearly out to defame or discredit this teacher at any cost.

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Indiaspark
And if you are so smart please provide the evidence for the presence of this thing called the "kundalini" . Get the research for all her nonsense published in a peer reviewed science journal.

There is no scientific evidence for the existence of God, and yet many intelligent people still believe. Just because there is no objective scientific evidence does not mean that there is no evidence and that therefore it is nonsense.

You posted several videos. . . you have provided no evidence proving that what is contained therein is psychosis, drugs or hypnotic manipulation. A demand for proof can go both ways.

Even Socrates, the founder of Western critical thought, was an initiate in the Eleusinian Mysteries, as was the stoic emperor Marcus Aurelius and the emperor Julian the Apostate. All three of these people were philosophers and whether you like it or not one was a founding father of rational inquiry.

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Indiaspark
And then come back and make these claims.

What claims have I made in what you quote? Again you are saying things just to say them. Your hostility is hardly objective.

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Indiaspark
Your academic qualifications do not make you any less gullible as the rrmoderator pointed out.

You have not shown me to be gullible in the first place.

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Indiaspark
Either that or you are just another skilled manipulator involved in running this Swami G's cult.

You're going to say whatever you want. Why are you so bent on this particular teacher?

Dear Sandman,

Your willingness to be civil is appreciated.

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sandman
Surely it is obvious that mystical, spiritual or religious experiences are both beyond critical thought and outside of intellectual pursuits.

Is it? Have you ever read Augustine's Confessions or The City of God? Regardless of how one feels about Kierkegaard, one cannot deny that he is a first rate philosopher. Have you ever looked at Fear and Trembling? Kant (again, by any standard a towering intellect) had a very rational argument for religious belief in God . . . Have you read his Religion within the Limits of Reason Alone?

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Sandman
It may be that an obviously rational explanation for such experiences is being overlooked.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. . . obviously rational explanation. There is no objective scientific criterion that proves the existence of God.

There are obvious flaws in many religions. One of the reasons I admire (though I don't necessarily %100 agree with) many Atheist thinkers like Dawkins is precisely because they are so good at pointing out the absurdities and harmful aspects to many religions.

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Sandman
... in relation to actual experience, please can you explain specifically how and in what way critical thinking skills and intellectual practices are compatible with the teachings of Swami G?

Which brings me to my next point. . . for a long time, especially after I left the Catholic church, my guiding principle has been very simple: whatever your path (and there are many valid paths out there, as the saying goes "many paths, one mountain") and whomever you are dealing with never believe anything that you cannot directly experience for yourself. This is the essence of Zen.

If that is not exercising critical thinking skills, what is? I think that is a good guiding principle for anyone to have, regardless of the path they have chosen.

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Sandman
How do they demonstrate that Swami G has rational credibility?

Because she has not, does not, and never will expect you to believe in something you cannot experience for yourself. She acknowledges that there are other valid paths out there, and that hers is not necessarily the one suited to any particular person. None are constrained to stay on her path and many -- the vast majority of students she has had in fact -- end up going their own way with no further ado. Can you find one person who alleges that they have had any trouble later on?

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Sandman
Lastly, can you please give a rational explanation of "Shaktipat" as shown in these videos cited earlier:

Probably not one that will satisfy you. The miracles at Medjugorjie can't be rationally explained either. . . does that make them invalid? From what I have experienced, and the people I have spoken to, everyone's experience of this is different. There is a lot of information of Swami G's website and she has written books too, and there is a good deal of video up. I encourage you to explore it on your own, if only from an anthropological perspective.

I will leave you with this. The videos are admittedly strange looking to an outsider. But recall that the sources are the ashram and organization itself. The videos, etc., were recorded and disseminated by the group itself . . . there is nothing being exposed as there was nothing to hide to begin with.

John.

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rrmoderator
Education generally is no guarantee against cult manipulation.

You are right but I don't recall anyone here saying that it was a guarantee. It is generally acknowledged that the more educated one is, the less liable they are to manipulation and it would be incorrect to imply otherwise. That is one of the main purposes of a secular education (which I fully endorse) to begin with.

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rrmoderator
It was a medical doctor (M.D.) that mixed the "Kool-Aid" at Jonestown.

Did he still have his medical license at the time?

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rrmoderator
One follower of David Koresh that died in the cult compound was a Harvard Law School graduate.

Yeah, where exactly was he, oh, in a compound! The unibomber had a PhD (from Michigan no less) in mathematics, and where was he? In some secluded wilderness area of Montana. . . a deeply disturbed individual. None of the cases you cite were normal well-adjusted individuals with mainstream lives.

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rrmoderator
It has been reported that about 80% of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh's followers were college graduates, something like 20% of the general membership had a post-graduate degree and many had a Ph.D.

Really? Where has that been reported? How many of those with a PhD were at accredited Universities with active careers? Have any since come forward to talk about their negative experiences? Perhaps some have!

I did not cite my (verifiable) credentials to dominate the discussion (which would be unfair to begin with). The only reason I did so was because someone asserted that Swami G was swindling gullible, uneducated people with no capacity for critical thinking or rational thought.

John A. Lobur:

You are here as an apologist.

It seems that Swami G and her followers are somehow worried about discussion on this thread.

But please stay on topic.

The topic on this thread is not Catholicism, religion generally or your education.

The topic of this thread is "Guru Swami G."

At this juncture based upon your admissions and the admissions of others associated with Swami G we have established the following:

Swami G essentially supports herself from a government disability check and her followers giving her money.

This is done through gifts, payment of a percentage of their gross income and donations.

There is a non-profit corporation apparently controlled by Swami G called "Zen-Way."

There is no detailed financial report disclosing how funds are spent through corporation. No one really knows where the money goes and Swamin G's followers simply trust that everything is OK.

Swami G has a history of involvement with groups called "cults," including the Holy Order of Mans and ISKCON. She spent years in Hare Krishna ashrams.

Dear RRModerator and to whom it may concern,

Though you appear on the outside to run a "non-biased" group and support organizaiton for potentially dangerous 'cults', you are quite biased in your "swaddled" comments and steering of the overall conversation. I would actually be highly surprised if this post even makes it to your board.

None of those that have worked with Guruji and are here to speak about their experiences are "apologists". They are merely responding to a serious accusation in an attempt to provide clarity and personal experiences to negate the allegations being (crudely) presented.

The moderator has said this isn't about "Kundalini", yet allows vidoes to be posted by critics which show and speak to Kundalini directly. The moderator has said this isn't about "higher / college education" and has even made statements regarding unrelated persons who did happen to have degrees and were subsequently involved in dangerous practices; yet, the moderator himself/herself asked if Swami G had a degree. The moderator has asked about financial holdings / dealings of Guruji and this information was shared freely and honestly; yet, the Moderator then wants to add his/her own hidden inuendos with no factual statements what-so-ever.

The burden of proof lies with those making the claims of indescretion or even suggesting this is a 'cult':

IndiaSpark: your entire premise is based on your own opinions and held beliefs. You ask for proof that Kundalini is valid, that what Guru speaks of is true (Realization / Enlightenment) or that the various activities (Shaktipat, Kryias, Mudras, etc) in the videos are real. Yet, you have no proof that they are not. If you can provide a scentific statement / thesis, published report, etc that reveals the unreality of these things, then do so. If not, then you are simply left with speculation and the rather crass attempt to validate your own theories. You are not a former student of Guru; you've never even met her. You have watched a few videos, behaved rudely on a Public Board she offers and then decided to create a campaign of hate against her because you a) don't agree with what she shares and b) because you didn't get to throw your fits on her personal internet groups. Your actions lack credibility, sensiblity, fact or even an ounce of unbiased research.

RRModerator: You are also responsible for supplying proof that there is anything that even remotely resembles "cult" within your allegations. Where are the concerned family members of current students? Why are they not here backing up the claims of an embittered "atheist scientist"? Where are the former students speaking out about financial abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, brain washing, or forcing them to cut ties with friends, families, work, education, etc? Until you have something solid to present that shows clearly and most definitely there is a concern, other then the words of a person who remains anonymous and has never worked directly with Guruji (and posting her videos that she makes public), then there is nothing left to be said.

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rrmoderator
You are here as an apologist.

How is this new information? Though I stress that I am doing this on my own. Lets call a spade a spade both ways and admit that you are here as an interrogator and inquisitor.

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rrmoderator
It seems that Swami G and her followers are somehow worried about discussion on this thread.

The Gestapo-like language is not appreciated.

If someone, especially someone with a high profile website and established credibility in the court of public opinion, implied that you were part of a corrupt or discreditable practice, I assume you would not life a finger to correct the misconception?

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rrmoderator
But please stay on topic.

The topic on this thread is not Catholicism, religion generally or your education.

The topic of this thread is "Guru Swami G."

So now you are telling me who I can and can't respond to on this thread?

I have noticed an unexpected and disturbing double-standard at play on this thread. When Swami G or others respond to queries made by others, you admonish the responders to stay on topic when they are only guilty of responding to what has been asked them, yet you don't admonish the interrogators to stay on topic. Why is this? It hardly speaks to your objectivity as a moderator. For example, you admonish JR many posts back with the phrase.

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rrmoderator
JRHebert:

The topic of this thread is "Guru Swami G" not Kundalini.

Please stay on topic.

Yet you do not admonish Indiaspark to stay on topic when he asks for objective proof regarding kundalini (see above)

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indiapsark
And if you are so smart please provide the evidence for the presence of this thing called the "kundalini" .

. This is not to mention the lack of moderation with regard to unnecessary, discourteous and hostile antics he and others display. This is professional behavior HOW?

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rrmoderator
The topic on this thread is not Catholicism, religion generally or your education.

You yourself made a post on this thread regarding education.

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rrmoderator
Swami G essentially supports herself from a government disability check and her followers giving her money.

Please more accurate. It has been established that she is self supporting through a govt. disability check and donations are accepted. The extent to which donations support her has not been established.

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rrmoderator
This is done through gifts, payment of a percentage of their gross income and donations.

Please be more accurate. Gifts are accepted. The percentage of gross income is a suggestion for the proper donation amount. You forgot to mention that the suggestion is 10% of 1 % every month. You also forgot to mention that donation is not a requirement.

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rrmoderator
There is a non-profit corporation apparently controlled by Swami G called "Zen-Way."

Actually, as of several months ago I am pretty sure she does not control the non-profit Zen-Way.

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rrmoderator
There is no detailed financial report disclosing how funds are spent through corporation. No one really knows where the money goes and Swamin G's followers simply trust that everything is OK.

Yes, generally, that appears to be the case, and as for myself I do trust that everything is OK. No one has ever really asked for a detailed report.

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rrmoderator
Swami G has a history of involvement with groups called "cults," including the Holy Order of Mans and ISKCON. She spent years in Hare Krishna ashrams.

Yes she is and has always been quite open about this . . . I do not think her involvement in the Krishna ashrams extends to years (more like up to a year). I think maybe for the sake of accuracy you should change your language to strike the word "including," as it implies there are more organizations than these.

Let's be clear about what else has been established at this juncture.

In the 10 years or so Guru Swami G has been active, no allegations of misconduct of any kind, financial or otherwise have ever surfaced.

Her former students do not allege they have been abused or exploited in any way shape or form. In fact she has often been publicly outspoken in exposing other abusive teachers and Gurus (in particular Swami Nithyananda and the guy in charge of the Deeksha Oneness Movement) and this is verifiable.

Guru Swami G has invited the RR watchdog group to contact and/or visit her, and (to my knowledge) there has been no response.

Well, I think I've said what I have to say. I do appreciate the opportunity to post here, but I would like to add that I am unfortunately not entirely confident that this forum moderated in an objective manner.

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John A. Lobur

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Indiaspark
ohn you are clearly part of this weird group and will defend your guru at all costs.

There is no scientific evidence for the existence of God, and yet many intelligent people still believe. Just because there is no objective scientific evidence does not mean that there is no evidence and that therefore it is nonsense.

You posted several videos. . . you have provided no evidence proving that what is contained therein is psychosis, drugs or hypnotic manipulation. A demand for proof can go both ways.

Even Socrates, the founder of Western critical thought, was an initiate in the Eleusinian Mysteries, as was the stoic emperor Marcus Aurelius and the emperor Julian the Apostate. All three of these people were philosophers and whether you like it or not one was a founding father of rational inquiry.

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Indiaspark
And then come back and make these claims.

What claims have I made in what you quote? Again you are saying things just to say them. Your hostility is hardly objective.

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Indiaspark
Your academic qualifications do not make you any less gullible as the rrmoderator pointed out.

You have not shown me to be gullible in the first place.

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Indiaspark
Either that or you are just another skilled manipulator involved in running this Swami G's cult.

You're going to say whatever you want. Why are you so bent on this particular teacher?

rrmoderator nailed it. You John Lobur are an apologist. Since you brought up god, I must ask you which god you are talking about? Belief is god is also a superstition and there is no evidence. Believers can be Intelligent people ( a sweeping statement) when dealing with the objective world but their individual blind beliefs and superstitions make them stupid.

Your blind faith in this woo woo that this woman Swami G promotes is evident.

This particular woman is very aggressively promoting her crazed ideas on the internet and she also attacks people who criticize her. As is evident from this thread. It took her no time to respond to my first post here.

And BTW 'miracles' are invalid until there is a scientific explanation. You cannot fill in the gaps in scientific explanations with your own imagined spin as you and this group are doing.

Hope you know how Pareidolia works since you mention miracles.

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John A. Lobur
Dear Sandman,

The miracles at Medjugorjie can't be rationally explained either. . . does that make them invalid?
John.

Sex, lies and apparitions - Medjugorjie

[www.spectator.co.uk]

GuruSwamiG Online Ashram www.guruswamig.com

One new thing they are trying, is the Online Ashram, which is obviously an oxymoron.

But you can see a series of Customer Qualifying steps here. www.guruswamig.com/orientation.html
Then only after they have checked out your submissiveness, then they "invite" you to join, which is the same language an Byron Katie. They love the word "invite".

You can see their questionnaire, where GuruSwamiG & Co are covering their butts, and asking confidential questions about peoples psychiatric Mental Illness status, (illegal) drug use, suicide history...
www.guruswamig.com/orientationstep7.html

Quite an online database of personal and work information they are collecting about strangers on the internet.
Watch out.

This is how to be a GuruSwami online, from the comfort of your home, all you need is a phone line and internet, and a GuruSwamiG Paypal account to accept "donations". www.guruswamig.com/donations.html



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2010 11:38AM by The Anticult.

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John A. Lobur
Why are you so bent on this particular teacher?

Why not? I think all cults like yours needs to be investigated. This forum has been set up exactly for this purpose.