Quote
Stoic
'I was excellent at meditation, hence excellent at being suggestible and indoctrinated.
They don't tell you this before you meditate.'

I am sorry that you had such a rough time. Any decent meditation teacher would make crystal clear the risks involved in undertaking meditation before you start, it shouldn't be something you have to find out the hard way.
Any decent teacher would also make clear that you are choosing to be influenced by the teacher--and that the choice is and remains entirely with you.

'........it is a trap, very very subtle trap.'

Too true, I'm glad you have found your way out of the trap.

I got lucky and found an honest teacher, they are out there--but rare as hen's teeth until you know how to look, by which time you probably don't need them anyway. I benefitted greatly from my association with him, I learned for the first time that there are decent people, with decent motives, in the world--and that they come in all shapes, colours and sizes.

Are you saying it's relatively standard for meditation teachers to issue a disclaimer at the beginning of the instruction process? I've never heard of this, nor of teachers stating up front that the student is choosing to be influenced by the teacher, but I've never been in a one-on-one relationship with a teacher. Actually, I'd never heard of teachers approaching students for one-on-one work at all, until I came across sexual abuse reports. How common is this one-on-one work?

"...until you know how to look"? Any recommendations on how to look for a good teacher?

RE: it being a subtle trap; does this mean that Tibetan Buddhism (or perhaps Eastern spirituality in general?) is more or less designed to entrap and make the student some sort of almost mindless servant of the lama, or of the Dharma? It's starting to sound that way, though I'd never thought of it that way before. But now, after being made aware of some of the pitfalls, I look at some of the teachings, and they sound like they were developed deliberately to keep the Tibetan populace passive and unquestioning of the monastic power structure's control over everything. (Blowing the whistle on abuse or corruption, for example, is labeled "wrong speech" and viewed as karmically bad, rather than as a compassionate gesture toward those suffering from exploitation). Victor and Victoria Trimondi, in their book, "The Shadow of the Dalai Lama" state categorically that the purpose of destroying the student's ego is so that the teacher can replace the student's mind with his own. Pretty scary stuff, if true. Any comments?

'Are you saying it's relatively standard for meditation teachers to issue a disclaimer at the beginning of the instruction process?'

No, what I said was that it should be standard. It is relatively rarely done, in fact meditation is often touted as a general magical cure-all for whatever ails you, when a little practical experience and some research would show it to be clearly a form of self-hypnosis.

Regarding influence, what does any teacher do? A teacher of geography is in a position of influence regarding the student he is teaching, parents are in a position of influence regarding the children they teach, all of these people are having some considerable input into the formation of the students mind and subsequent worldview. Information is
never neutral.

'How common is this one-on-one work?'

Not very common at all if you are researching the big name, big fame, commercial type teachers whose economies of scale and profit dictate a mass audience. Traditionally it was always a student finding a suitable teacher (ie one that suited the student) for personal instruction over a period of years.

Regarding the uses to which meditation has been put, you might try looking at the traditional power divide in asian countries that have a strong monastic presence. The political powers and religious powers were hand-in-glove in maintaining control over the population, neither one could do it alone so there was a trade off--the monasteries got political favour and protection in return for taking care of the emotional needs of the population and keeping the masses quiet and obedient. They delivered the political vote, and still do in most asian countries.
The monks in Burma recently rebelled when their privileges and protections were withdrawn by the ruling junta. Previously they had been the more discreet, second arm of power in the state. It became a more popular mass uprising later but was first prompted by the withdrawal of monastic privilege.



'Any recommendations on how to look for a good teacher?'

I'm going to optimistically assume that you are not using the sarcastic font and say that you need a concrete idea of what you want from a teacher before going looking and to exercise extreme caution and cynicism. I learned quite early in my life that I would be 'taught' very little that is of use, but that if I stay alert I get to learn something useful regardless. The onus is on me to learn, not on an outsider to imprint me with his latest doctrine.
It helps to have realistic expectations also and to be able to cope with having even those expectations shattered.

'the purpose of destroying the student's ego is so that the teacher can replace the student's mind with his own'

Meditation is a technique, like all techniques it can be used for good or for ill. My mind is my own and I am very picky indeed about what influences I invite into it. The BS about destroying the ego is a nonsense, at best a poor translation, at worst a highly manipulative and corrosive attempt at brainwashing.
The bottom line is that it was never intended to be a widespread practice and it is of no practical use to most people. If relaxation is the goal then there are better ways to do that. I find it to be of practical use to me but I cannot fathom why most people take it up--I don't think that they really know either, apart from some vague idea that it will make them 'spiritual.'
WTF does that word mean anyway?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2010 01:28PM by Stoic.

Back to some of my original questions, Stoic: How common is the one-on-one work? I've read about many cases where a lama is teaching in a dharma center, and covertly approaches several women one by one, telling each one that they need to practice tantric sex with him in order to "further their practice". I've never known this to occur in my experience, but...I don't have much experience with sanghas. What I have experienced is overt flirtation from lamas. So anyway, this is why I asked how common it is for teachers to offer students one-on-one sessions. And you'd be surprised; several women report it's easy to approach even the big names, especially at their homes in India, but in the US as well.

I asked you for advice re: finding a good teacher simply because you had said that once you figured out "how to look", you found a good teacher. I was wondering about the 'how to look' part. I'm not looking for doctrines, just someone who is intelligent about teaching texts and concepts, and who is kind and honest and humble. I'm probably dreaming. But that's what we're lead to expect.

RE: "destroying the ego"--that question didn't relate to meditation. There are techniques for "deconstructing the ego", as one lama put it. This is the process Milarepa and Naropa are said to have undergone. It's extreme, but for some reason it's often assumed that this is what Westerners want. There seem to be many strange assumptions made by lamas regarding what Westerners are interested in. I think that probably has more to do with the lamas' own agendas than anything their students are looking for.

Thanks for your responses.

'just someone who is intelligent about teaching texts and concepts, and who is kind and honest and humble. I'm probably dreaming. But that's what we're lead to expect.'

Yes, and to the limits of my ability to communicate I am trying to tell you 'how to look'

1. Forget about what 'we are led to expect'
2. Forget about processes semi-mythical figures are supposed to have undergone
3. Forget about what you are probably dreaming about--who planted the seed of the dream in the first place?
4. You want someone who is intelligent, kind, honest and humble to drop their own concerns to tend to yours--not asking for much are you?

5. I settled for honest, with integrity. My teacher could have been a cannibal with a bone through his nose for all I cared, just so long as he exhibited those qualities--because that was what I was looking for above all else. I was looking for a living example because I had yet to see honest integrity in the flesh. I eventually found him to be also kind, humble and very, very smart---but my definitions of those terms had radically changed by then.
6. You can only recognise honest in another when you are unremittingly honest with yourself

Look at your own experience first--it is all that you have as a yardstick to measure by--- before believing the endless tripe written about others experience.

Vera City posted links to two great videos on another thread, master those and you're well set up for 'looking' as well as ahead of the game when it comes to spotting exploitative lamas looking to fulfill their own nefarious needs rather than yours. Of course it takes some heavy thinking work on your part, but then what worthwhile project doesn't?

[forum.culteducation.com]

You seem to be conflating all my concerns into one, but they are separate, so there's been a misunderstanding. I don't expect anyone to drop their own concerns and attend to mine. I'm just looking for a dharma center with a good teacher. I'm not looking for a one-one-one relationship, but I'm concerned for people who have fallen into what has turned out to be a trap leading to abuse of one sort or another. I'm working on finding a way to minimize the incidence of that sort of thing in the future. Websites like this one are a good resource in that regard.

I only mentioned Naropa and Milarepa so you could understand the process/teaching method I was referring to. You'd previously linked it with meditation when I first mentioned it, but it's not related to meditation.

I'm looking for a teacher who walks his/her talk; if he (or she) preaches compassion, I expect him/her to practice it. If he/she's taken vows, I expect him/her to keep them. And integrity is key, of course, as is humility (back to walking the talk again); in a tradition that is about compassion and conquering the ego, there's no place for arrogance. I'll take a look at Veracity's videos, thanks.

Hi Misstyk,

I guess a question to ask is why you wish to get from Tibetan Buddhist Teachings(by the way from looking at other types of Buddhisms online there appear to use similar psychological traps), what are you looking to get out of them?

Putting yourself in that environment likely could cause some change.

Do web searches first and I guess maybe call local anti-cult groups to check out the centre first.

The Guru Papers Book I'm pretty sure see Buddhism as a cult, not in the form of Manson etc, but very subtle.

Remember these people have been studying the mind for 2,500years and have perfected how to manipulate them to there own agenda.

Is what you want to achieve what they want to achieve.

When I'd would go there definitely don't share your life with them, people take Bodhisattva Vows to lead you to Nirvana etc, this may involved trying to get you to spend more time with the Geshe or other Sangha.

Once they know your feelings and what influences you then they can go to work on changing you if they wish.

Putting meaning to the teaching that will maybe have you fall in love with them.

When you arrive and see all the smiling faces especially the teachers it is done to make you feel loved and part of a family, for the Geshe, like an older loving brother.

If you look at the photos of the Dalai Lama and other teachers or monks of other religions you will see photos of gentle smiling faces that make you smile to look at them, its what all religions do.

Thats why they call Catholic Monks and Nuns Brother and Sister, it is to stir that family connection.

And if you have a bad family up bringing this will feel so lovely too you, remember it is done for a reason, to make you feel good, but they won't do it forever once your hooked.

Most of the people I see hanging out at Buddhist Centres are quite often depressed from trying to become selfless and a little nuts, who wouldn't be, humans beings are social creatures it is natural to human to be at least a little self centred, there goal is to be totally selfless, now in the wrong hands if your tried this you can be extremely vulnerable to a predator, who could honestly believe he is doing the best for you.

I'll post some more, just a little at a time as from my experience of abuse, what happens to the mind if I get too deep or too much into taking about it, I can get disorientated, post traumatic stress gets triggered and I can even dissociate and or have panic attacks, I nearly lost myself.

I hope what happened to me should make you wary enough of how you tread.

I'd highly recommend to read Dangerous Persuaders by Sam Amways, go to her website its free/donation to download and is a short read, I was mortified how what she describes quite simply the same what happened to me.

She didn't mention Buddhism, but I tell you the techniques are the same.

Read this first and sooner the better it is a short book.

In my opinion if you do come under the influence of a bad experience in Buddhism it is even harder to get out of because everyone outside will say what are you saying Buddhism is so nice a Buddhist monk wouldn't do that to you, there must be something wrong with you.

Sam Amway describes how the prayers, mantras and teachings change your mind scientifically and easily.

To understand how religion works and how they will try to influence you.

Try this link too of why we believe in gods

[richarddawkins.net]

It takes about an hour, but sometimes it is easier to watch than read.

It has an excellent explanation.

You can contact the writers of the Guru Papers and they will talk to you about your concerns, an hour costs $100 and you can talk to them on skype.

I found them very helpful.

Good luck Misstyk and I will post some more of how I was trapped later.

I didn't intend to work with a monk one on one, I was subtly seduced into it.

I've been studying them online and as time goes on the traps and influences arise in my mind of what they did to me.

Good links Stoic and thanks for your kind words.

Cheers ;o)

The process/ teaching method you are referring to is control of the students mind through manipulation and hypnosis, meditation is the gateway that allows this to happen.

There is no compassion in conquering the ego--run hard and fast from any teacher who uses any variation of 'conquering the ego'.

Using critical thinking will put some ground under your feet. As a previous poster said, they've been refining the method for 2,500 years, they wouldn't still be at it if it didn't work.

All good advice, and good clarification, thanks. (But...isn't Buddhism in general, or Tibetan Buddhism at least, fundamentally about conquering the ego? (I'm not referring to a specific technique here, but to the stated goal of practice.) This is one thing that has me concerned, lately. I don't think it's necessary to conquer the ego in order to devote oneself to helping others. I'm coming to the conclusion that this system was set up in large part to keep the populace docile and controllable. There are alarming aspects to the tradition.)

IMO, a better way of putting it would be: no longer identifying so closely with the emotional passions of the ego. Its about no longer being so driven by emotion, ie. knowing when I am being driven by emotion but having a choice about whether or not I act on the emotion.

I still get angry but I know that I am not my anger, my anger will eventually subside and I will then make a more sane decision regarding action or no action.
The endless practice makes it a good lifetime habit. You don't need a lama to learn to do this.

The enlightenment/salvation fantasy is the bait. "You too can be a superhuman in 10 easy lessons, just sign up here." :)
I would only sign up to such a promise if I was deeply unsure of myself and half-convinced that I was defective in some way to begin with and that the promiser had some magical means to make me better.

No-one is that defective, it is an emotionally manipulative ploy. I may not, through inexperience or lack of knowledge, be using the faculties that I do have (critical thinking) to my best advantage but that is no reason to throw out those faculties in order to follow anothers direction.

Quote
Stoic
IMO, a better way of putting it would be: no longer identifying so closely with the emotional passions of the ego. Its about no longer being so driven by emotion, ie. knowing when I am being driven by emotion but having a choice about whether or not I act on the emotion.
.

Sounds like basic mindfulness: a good skill. I think there are useful elements in the teachings, but as I said to Wannabefree, some of the more advanced practices sound extreme and unhealthy.

On a slightly different note, I've read that only about 10% of the monks get even intermediate education in Buddhism, let along advanced. 90% are just taught to memorize texts without being given any explanation. I wonder if the selflessness routine isn't instilled in them just so they'll be good servants to the advanced monks and lamas. The same would go for the population at large, of course.