Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: September 17, 2010 04:09AM
'In my view Ole Nydahl is a racist with a deep misunderstanding of buddhism, and a DL hater.'
Alchi,
Are you motivated to defend the Dalai Lama and all his doings because Ole Nydahl hates him?-----as I learned from the Penn and Teller YouTube video clip, it doesn't always follow that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'
That kind of simplistic thinking is what got the Dalai Lama into the mess he is in at present.
I think of the Karen people, also used as dupes and pawns in the cold war of the 50's, abandoned by their masters and still fighting a desperate nomadic guerilla war of survival in the jungles of Burma 50 years later. I admire their tenacity and weep with despair.
Perhaps you are allowing your emnity of Nydahl to obscure your view of the rest of the powerful at the top of the Tibetan Buddhist pile. The opposer of bad is not always good. Sometimes the opposer of bad is even worse---as a look at the history of revolutionary movements will confirm.
The reading that I have done on the known behaviour of those at the top of the pile shows the usual infighting, intrigue, manoevering, nefarious doings including murdering rivals, that you see in any hierarchy of organisational power politics. The royal courts have always known the score when power is up for grabs.
Do you think that, along with the scriptures, Ole Nydahl might have picked up a few pointers on the aquisition and retention of power in the three years that he and Hannah spent rubbing shoulders with those at the top of the pile?
Nydahl didn't make the mistake that the Karen people made, he knew he was valuable to his masters only for his ability to appeal to the westerners--so he made Diamond Way his own fiefdom as soon as he was able to plausibly do that. Ole learned to play the game which is why he is now tolerated.
Enough of Ole Nydahl, he has his own thread.
How about the Dalai Lama and his dodgy friends, is he still worth defending or does your silence 'speak volumes'?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2010 04:14AM by Stoic.
Alchi,
Are you motivated to defend the Dalai Lama and all his doings because Ole Nydahl hates him?-----as I learned from the Penn and Teller YouTube video clip, it doesn't always follow that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'
That kind of simplistic thinking is what got the Dalai Lama into the mess he is in at present.
I think of the Karen people, also used as dupes and pawns in the cold war of the 50's, abandoned by their masters and still fighting a desperate nomadic guerilla war of survival in the jungles of Burma 50 years later. I admire their tenacity and weep with despair.
Perhaps you are allowing your emnity of Nydahl to obscure your view of the rest of the powerful at the top of the Tibetan Buddhist pile. The opposer of bad is not always good. Sometimes the opposer of bad is even worse---as a look at the history of revolutionary movements will confirm.
The reading that I have done on the known behaviour of those at the top of the pile shows the usual infighting, intrigue, manoevering, nefarious doings including murdering rivals, that you see in any hierarchy of organisational power politics. The royal courts have always known the score when power is up for grabs.
Do you think that, along with the scriptures, Ole Nydahl might have picked up a few pointers on the aquisition and retention of power in the three years that he and Hannah spent rubbing shoulders with those at the top of the pile?
Nydahl didn't make the mistake that the Karen people made, he knew he was valuable to his masters only for his ability to appeal to the westerners--so he made Diamond Way his own fiefdom as soon as he was able to plausibly do that. Ole learned to play the game which is why he is now tolerated.
Enough of Ole Nydahl, he has his own thread.
How about the Dalai Lama and his dodgy friends, is he still worth defending or does your silence 'speak volumes'?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2010 04:14AM by Stoic.
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Alchi
()
Date: September 20, 2010 04:53PM
Indeed my silence will speak volume. I'm signing off.
So much misinformation and confusion. I think this is a great website, but my contribution here is over. Stoic and Shakti you are on a mission here and you have made your own mind.
I'm not an official representative of the Tibetan government, nor am I affiliated to any buddhist sects.
Using innacurate or unproven informations to give some weight to your argumentation is intelectually weak though.
The Tibetan government is not beyond criticism nor is the DL ( He has confirmed this himself many times which is quite rare in politics.)
A side note for the other thread readers here concerning some sensationalist claims you might find online: Most of them are from doubtful sources:
Diamond Way, Western Shungden Society, hysterical conspiration theorists ( He's portrayed alternatively as a fascist, nazi, socialist,a satanist, a CIA agent etc..) and...And pro-Chinese gvt sponsored blog posters. Weirdly enough there's virtually no scholarly work available.
Knowing the might of the enemies of the Tibetan government, if the DL was eating children for breakfast, don't worry we would all know about it.
Best,
So much misinformation and confusion. I think this is a great website, but my contribution here is over. Stoic and Shakti you are on a mission here and you have made your own mind.
I'm not an official representative of the Tibetan government, nor am I affiliated to any buddhist sects.
Using innacurate or unproven informations to give some weight to your argumentation is intelectually weak though.
The Tibetan government is not beyond criticism nor is the DL ( He has confirmed this himself many times which is quite rare in politics.)
A side note for the other thread readers here concerning some sensationalist claims you might find online: Most of them are from doubtful sources:
Diamond Way, Western Shungden Society, hysterical conspiration theorists ( He's portrayed alternatively as a fascist, nazi, socialist,a satanist, a CIA agent etc..) and...And pro-Chinese gvt sponsored blog posters. Weirdly enough there's virtually no scholarly work available.
Knowing the might of the enemies of the Tibetan government, if the DL was eating children for breakfast, don't worry we would all know about it.
Best,
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: September 20, 2010 07:45PM
[www.culteducation.com]
"It is my moral responsibility to support any movement" that cares about ethics, he said.
One can't believe everything presented by the media, the Dalai Lama said, gesturing as if his nose were growing like Pinocchio's.
"Where there be doubt, make clear," the Dalai Lama said, referring to the WEFC, whose conceptual founder, Keith Raniere, is the founder of NXIVM. "All your work must be transparent."
[forum.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.youtube.com]
"It is my moral responsibility to support any movement" that cares about ethics, he said.
One can't believe everything presented by the media, the Dalai Lama said, gesturing as if his nose were growing like Pinocchio's.
"Where there be doubt, make clear," the Dalai Lama said, referring to the WEFC, whose conceptual founder, Keith Raniere, is the founder of NXIVM. "All your work must be transparent."
[forum.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.youtube.com]
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
shakti
()
Date: September 20, 2010 11:50PM
" Using innacurate or unproven informations to give some weight to your argumentation is intelectually weak though. "
-I would say "Name one", but you've hit the road. Oh, well.
"A side note for the other thread readers here concerning some sensationalist claims you might find online: Most of them are from doubtful sources:
Diamond Way, Western Shungden Society, hysterical conspiration theorists ( He's portrayed alternatively as a fascist, nazi, socialist,a satanist, a CIA agent etc..) and...And pro-Chinese gvt sponsored blog posters. Weirdly enough there's virtually no scholarly work available.
Knowing the might of the enemies of the Tibetan government, if the DL was eating children for breakfast, don't worry we would all know about it."
Didn't quote from Diamondy Way, Shungden, conspiracy theorists, or Chinese govt blogs. Trust me, I'm smart enough to know what those look like.
Socialist, satanist: No. No evidence for either.
Fascist/Nazi: certainly hasn't shied away from them over the years, from Harrer to Beger to Serrano.
CIA agent: not an "agent", but certainly on the payroll at times. Fact, not even worth debating at this point.
And the last line is classic disinformation: claim that somebody said "the DL was eating children for breakfast", which nobody said, and I certainly don't believe. Try to wipe away all the documented cases of malfeasance with an outrageous conspiracy theory as effort to discredit the actual data.
-I would say "Name one", but you've hit the road. Oh, well.
"A side note for the other thread readers here concerning some sensationalist claims you might find online: Most of them are from doubtful sources:
Diamond Way, Western Shungden Society, hysterical conspiration theorists ( He's portrayed alternatively as a fascist, nazi, socialist,a satanist, a CIA agent etc..) and...And pro-Chinese gvt sponsored blog posters. Weirdly enough there's virtually no scholarly work available.
Knowing the might of the enemies of the Tibetan government, if the DL was eating children for breakfast, don't worry we would all know about it."
Didn't quote from Diamondy Way, Shungden, conspiracy theorists, or Chinese govt blogs. Trust me, I'm smart enough to know what those look like.
Socialist, satanist: No. No evidence for either.
Fascist/Nazi: certainly hasn't shied away from them over the years, from Harrer to Beger to Serrano.
CIA agent: not an "agent", but certainly on the payroll at times. Fact, not even worth debating at this point.
And the last line is classic disinformation: claim that somebody said "the DL was eating children for breakfast", which nobody said, and I certainly don't believe. Try to wipe away all the documented cases of malfeasance with an outrageous conspiracy theory as effort to discredit the actual data.
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Alchi
()
Date: September 21, 2010 04:25PM
Quote
shakti
" Didn't quote from Diamondy Way, Shungden, conspiracy theorists, or Chinese govt blogs. Trust me, I'm smart enough to know what those look like.
quote]
“Didn't quote from Diamondy Way, Shungden, conspiracy theorists, or Chinese govt blogs. Trust me, I'm smart enough to know what those look like.”
Failed. Just google “Dalai Lama Nazi” and see what comes up.
Socialist: Yes the DL has been accused of this too. To be fair he said himself that his ideology has more in common with Marxism than capitalism!
Harrer: This is well documented, he was a young Nazi before the war and regretted it for the rest of his life. He was cleared of any pre-war crime and came back to Europe in 1952 after spending 7 years in Tibet.
This argument about the DL connection to Nazis has been used many times by the DL adversaries, including the Chinese Gvt. It was even reported in respected newspapers like the Observer. (See Harrer’s Orbituary)
Beger: Was also part of the Nazi expedition in the 30’s he was consulted later by the Tibetan government as a witness regarding the geo-politic situation of Tibet in the 30s/40s. He met the DL five times in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, and 1994.
The DL has a head of state and religious leader met a lot of unsavory people including Serano, Shoko Asahara, George Bush or Tony Blair.
CIA: Again, see my last post about this, this is well documented too by historians. The CIA financed and helped the ill-fated Tibetan guerilla against Chinese troops in the context of the Cold War.
Few Tibetan fighters survived, some of them where thereafter incorporated into the Indian Army. On this subject, I strongly recommend you to read the chapter about the life of one of this freedom fighter in “Nine Lives: In Search of the Sacred in Modern India » by William Dalrymple.
« Eating children for breakfast » I’m afraid, this bit is true, that his part of his daily schedule which also includes meeting with his masters Iluminatis and sessions of Tantric Sex… ;)
Goodbye Shakti,
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: September 21, 2010 05:52PM
The Dalai lama didn't just meet with the unsavoury Asahara and Raniere--he accepted very large donations from them.
As for the eating of children, maybe not--but the relious elite of lamas did inflict punishments of completely skinning both adults and children and displaying the grisly results as a warning "pour encourager les autres."
"My religion is peace?"----maybe only when that nostrum keeps the big bucks rolling in.
As for the eating of children, maybe not--but the relious elite of lamas did inflict punishments of completely skinning both adults and children and displaying the grisly results as a warning "pour encourager les autres."
"My religion is peace?"----maybe only when that nostrum keeps the big bucks rolling in.
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Alchi
()
Date: September 21, 2010 06:57PM
Quote
Stoic
The Dalai lama didn't just meet with the unsavoury Asahara and Raniere--he accepted very large donations from them.
As for the eating of children, maybe not--but the relious elite of lamas did inflict punishments of completely skinning both adults and children and displaying the grisly results as a warning "pour encourager les autres."
"My religion is peace?"----maybe only when that nostrum keeps the big bucks rolling in.
My guess is you mean "Pour decourager les autres" not "encourager" Aussi non ça n'a aucun sens.
The french "Gouvernement" was using the guillotine until the mid-70s. The US fried people on electric chairs until recently.
Capital punishment was abolished in Tibet prior to the chinese invasion.
I don't have the exact date but from memory this was a first in the world.
Yes there was some horrible mutilations done to thiefs and criminals in Tibet up the begining of the 20th century according to some records. Unfortunately in many other countries too.
Nobody says pre -1950s Tibet was a human rights paradise. The DL included.
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: September 21, 2010 07:02PM
A quick scholarly reference:
'Pour encourager les autres' is a quote from Voltaire's 'Candide', often used in the context of political punishment and persecution. The full quote is "dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres" ('in england, it is good, from time to time, to kill an admiral, to encourage the others'), and refers indirectly to the unfortunate fate of Admiral John Byng, who was executed in 1756 at the outbreak of the Seven Years' War.'
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 07:02PM by Stoic.
'Pour encourager les autres' is a quote from Voltaire's 'Candide', often used in the context of political punishment and persecution. The full quote is "dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres" ('in england, it is good, from time to time, to kill an admiral, to encourage the others'), and refers indirectly to the unfortunate fate of Admiral John Byng, who was executed in 1756 at the outbreak of the Seven Years' War.'
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 07:02PM by Stoic.
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
Alchi
()
Date: September 21, 2010 07:58PM
Quote
Stoic
A quick scholarly reference:
'Pour encourager les autres' is a quote from Voltaire's 'Candide', often used in the context of political punishment and persecution. The full quote is "dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres" ('in england, it is good, from time to time, to kill an admiral, to encourage the others'), and refers indirectly to the unfortunate fate of Admiral John Byng, who was executed in 1756 at the outbreak of the Seven Years' War.'
Ah..Thanks! Qui a dit que les français n'avaient pas le sens de l'ironie? ;)
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2010 08:02PM by Alchi.
Re: "Doubts about the Dalai Lama"/
Posted by:
shakti
()
Date: September 21, 2010 11:41PM
Oh, so I guess you're not leaving us after all, Alchi!
"Failed. Just google “Dalai Lama Nazi” and see what comes up. "
"Failed?" Because many groups who I have nothing to do with agree with me that means I quoted something? Your arguing skills are poor, if existent at all. Show me where I quoted Shugden, Diamond Way, or the Chinese government. You can't, thus it is YOU have failed. Quite clearly to anyone with any sense of logic or rationality.
And keep repeating that someone on this board said "the Dalai Lama eats children for breakfast", maybe somebody will be stupid enough to believe you.
"Failed. Just google “Dalai Lama Nazi” and see what comes up. "
"Failed?" Because many groups who I have nothing to do with agree with me that means I quoted something? Your arguing skills are poor, if existent at all. Show me where I quoted Shugden, Diamond Way, or the Chinese government. You can't, thus it is YOU have failed. Quite clearly to anyone with any sense of logic or rationality.
And keep repeating that someone on this board said "the Dalai Lama eats children for breakfast", maybe somebody will be stupid enough to believe you.
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