I think that the idea that no one should assist Catholics to discern cults without attacking the Curch itself is unfair.

I think we all should be able to separate the larger "culture" of a group from the question of destructive cults. I am not proselytizing or apologizing.

I do think it is important to separate the larger belief system from the cults that exploit it for their own purposes.

Anyone who has left the Catholic church in disgust and who has dropped the belief system as well should be as concerned as I am over those cults who are bringing people into the Catholic Church under false pretexts.

Scientology certainly does not have the position in society that the Catholic Church does, especialy in many ethnic groups, however, let's look at the comparison:

I grew up in a very "old" part of the USA in which many of the beliefs of Scientologists about outer space etc are ridiculed from the get-go and people don't understand how anyone would be recruited to that belief-system (yet people from that part of the USA often are). But there are communities now out west that are newer and they openly welcome those science fiction ideas without ridiculing them at all. Would you stop them from talking about Scientology unless they agree also to stop believing all the stuff about creatures from outer-space being the genuine origin of human civilization?

If someone started posting about a Scientology group that was recruiting their kids through infiltrating a larger UFO-astronomy club, would you pull their descriptions of the methods the particular Scientologists used off-topic and onto arguments that they should not be looking for UFO's in the first place? Would you say they cannot discuss Scientology-based cults in their community because some of their neighbors were involved in a big criminal scandal of their own, unconnected to Scientology?

I am not trying to change the mind of anyone who hates the Catholic Church or who believes priests are evil. I am trying to keep a very difficult and emotionally-charged set of discussions on-topic.

I think that you are proselytising. I think that you are still using the tactics learned in NatlFed, you have just switched masters.

I do think it is important to separate the larger belief system from the cults that exploit it for their own purposes.

This isn't about belief systems, this is about different groups of exploiters scrapping over the human spoils for the money and power that it will bring to the winner. The fact that one set of exploiters has a 'position in society' and some history does not legitimise the exploitation.

This is about deception. Your bigotry is your problem. I would not go into a thread run by Jews who are upset about some particular cult that claims Judaic heritage and tell them that because I have certain opinions about the Jewish religion and the way they do things that the entire Jewish identity must be a cult and therefore any Jew who comes in here to start a thread on deceptive cults claiming to be Jewish has no business doing so.

Really, you are just attacking the basic concept of any thread run by a Catholic that discusses cults which have Catholic elements. Are we supposed to pass some kind of litmus test before discussing cults, here? If so, which litmus test is it? Atheist? Protestant? Jewish? Agnostic? Gaian? Democrat? Republican?



Please stop attacking me for being Catholic. You are deliberately pulling this off-topic because of your own bigotry.


This thread is about the CRHP retreats. If you don't want to discuss CRHP retreats, then you are discussing some other subject. You are deliberately interfering with the rights of others to discuss CRHP retreats.

CRHP retreats are run by a self-appointed set of leaders who are using weekend intensive mind-control techniques including OPEN BLACKMAIL. They are NOT run by the Catholic church. They are peculiar to the USA, as far as I know.

You are right that this is about deception. Far from exercising my bigotry I was responding to the deceptive statements that you made, eg:

"Our bishops are indeed getting on top of this in the Church."

by pointing out that getting 'on top' of anything in the church involves deception from the top down, ie the Infallible Pope securing immunity from prosecution for himself while having a clear and unequivocal responsibilty for the perpetuation and cover-up of the abuses.

I also took exception to your proselytising statement:

"One of my reasons for deciding to start posting about Catholic cult problems is that each time a bishop announces that a particular group or practice is discouraged, there will be tons of individual Catholics hitting the google search, and we are in a good position to help them put the bishops' announcements in context".

There is no "we" on this forum, catholic or otherwise, which is going to contextualise the announcements of 'approved' or 'disapproved' cults within the catholic church. This forum is not an arm of the church with a mission to propagate the official doctrinal message.


"Really, you are just attacking the basic concept of any thread run by a Catholic that discusses cults which have Catholic elements."

What I am attacking is the deluded concept that you are 'running' any thread. This is an open, moderated forum, despite your attempts to exclude anyone but co-religionists.

This is about the CRHP cult-style retreats.



THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE CRHP CULT.

PLEASE STOP ATTACKING THIS THREAD WITH YOUR OFF-TOPIC POSTS.

To everyone elese: Please do not be afraid of posting about the CRHP cult even if you are Catholic. Many non-Catholics are invited to these retreats and so you will not be identified as "Catholic" just because you participate in this threaqd. The Anti-Catholic bigot who is attacking this thread does not know the difference between mainstream religious activity and destructive cults. He knows I am Catholic because I have said so. Anyone can post about this CRHP cult without fear of hateful attacks from him because the CRHP cult invites non-Catholics to its retreats as well as Catholics.

Some anti-Catholic bigots are so obtuse they do not see that most of these inside cults run an "ecumenical" scam to pull in non-Catholics and convert them. If these bigots were not so obtuse, they would recognize that helping ALL people recognize these little cults would prevent such aggressive "conversion" activity.

I don't care if someone is running on pure personal hatred of me as a Catholic. I only care that all who want to talk about deceptive cults inside and alongside the Catholic Church are allowed to carry on a conversation just like believers in Protestant Christianity, Buddhism or Hinduism etc without INTERFERENCE from TROLLS like the one who keeps attacking this thread.

Quote
dsm
The present pope has been one of the strongest opponents of permissiveness and he is supporting investigations instead of discouraging them. .

OK, now I smell a rat, DSM. That above sentence is complete and utter bs. And what you are referring to as "opponent of permissiveness" is his hatred for homosexuals while tolerating BOY-RAPE within his own church. This current pope helped transfer priests, DID NOT report them to the police, and has done everything within his power to obfuscate until recently when the evidence became too obvious that the Catholic Church has a severe institutional problem with child rape ("abuse" is far too soft a term) that stretches all the way to the top.

Your attempt to blame it on cults is a smokescreen and you are on this board to mislead, disinform, and proselytize. Game's over, DSM, we're on to you.

Quote
dsm
And BTW, the Pope does not operate the prison system or the court system in any country. The government in each and every one of these cases has full power to go right in and investigate and arrest, WHO is responsible for that? YOU, the secular public. .

You are talking about a Pope that has GONE OUT OF HIS WAY, particularly before he became pope, to manipulate, lie, and obfuscate about cases of child rape. He is the head of your institution. He has failed to act until the press scrutiny became unbearable. Almost all law enforcement attempts to investigate such cases have been thwarted and stalled by high ups within the church at the archbishop, cardinal, and papal level. The Church has a MORAL and LEGAL responsibility to report such cases themselves to the police. They have not done so until very recently.

You should be ashamed of your "infallible" pope and your own efforts to defend him. Disgraceful.

Quote
Stoic
How is this finger-pointing smoke-screen of an apology for the endemic corruption in the catholic church any different?I have no objection to anybody's personal beliefs, I do object to apologists trawling for obscure 'cults' to post in this forum to scare any wavering catholics back into the arms and filling the coffers of Mother Church.

Bingo. Right on the money.

Why do you TROLLS keep interfering with discussion of the CRHP """"""ECUMENICAL""""""" CULT?


THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE CRHP CULT.

"This is about deception. Your bigotry is your problem. I would not go into a thread run by Jews who are upset about some particular cult that claims Judaic heritage and tell them that because I have certain opinions about the Jewish religion and the way they do things that the entire Jewish identity must be a cult and therefore any Jew who comes in here to start a thread on deceptive cults claiming to be Jewish has no business doing so. "

-No, but when you come on here and make statements like the "Pope is an opponent of permissiveness and is dealing with the situation", we are going to call you on this. You don't "run" this thread, you merely started it. It is also clear from this post and other threads that you have an anti-gay agenda. "Permissiveness" is Vatican code for "it is the fault of the gays that our priests are raping young boys". When in reality, this stuff has been going on long before the term "gay rights" or even "Gay" itself came into play. It is INSTITUTIONALIZED, not a "few bad apples". Rather than face their own hypocrisy, the Vatican is trying to turn the tables and use their own scandal to say "see we were right about the gays!".

"Really, you are just attacking the basic concept of any thread run by a Catholic that discusses cults which have Catholic elements. Are we supposed to pass some kind of litmus test before discussing cults, here? If so, which litmus test is it? Atheist? Protestant? Jewish? Agnostic? Gaian? Democrat? Republican?"

-No, but it is clear that you have a right-wing political agenda that goes beyond just being worried about cults. You tend to play down right-wing cults like TFP or the Traditionalists, but are clearly worried about "liberation theology" and term those groups cults. Personally, I would like to look at some of the cults you are mentioning as I have no problem believing that there are destructive left-wing cults involved with the Church just as there are destructive right-wing cults involved with the Church. However it is your own agenda that is detracting from the thread. I haven't even had the chance to look at the CHRP retreats simply because I'm more alarmed by what seems to be a stealth agenda on your part. If you could turn off the Pope apologia and anti-gay nonsense for a minute, I would be happy to look at the material on CRHP, but instead you are hurting your own cause by pushing other agendas.