Sandman:

Excellent point, that is very valuable information.
Any sect/group that has such intense higher abstraction re-languaging patterns, (Jargon), using so many words of that nature, is actually extremely dangerous. That is mental quicksand, a mind-trap.
Once an untrained person in these areas gets lured into a SYSTEM like that, using dozens of jargon-laden mental-concepts, they can get lost in that forest for YEARS. It can completely colonize a person's mind and mental concepts, as is its intent.

Even from just a quick initial look, its clear that Bernard Poolman and Desteni are no dummies. They know if they can take control of people's mental CONCEPTS at that higher level of abstraction, then the rest is gravy.



And the Desteni 'muscle communication' Applied Kinesiology, that is a self-delusion and a scam, and has been proven to be as such in double-blind tests. [www.skepdic.com]
The words coming about Desteni seem to be coming from a Desteni apologist or employee posing as a client. Just sayin...it ain't that convincing.


And in this forum, it was shown how James Arthur Ray, now charged with manslaughter, used Applied Kinesiology to literally TAKE CONTROL of people's responses. This is why so many cultic groups are now using AK Applied Kinesiology muscle-communication-testing.
The person who is applying it to the patient/victim, literally CONTROLS THE RESPONSES. That gives them incredible power over the person, as they can determine their answers, either unconsciously or deliberately.
This was used by James Arthur Ray, and many others as a part of their system of taking control of people's responses to them.

[forum.culteducation.com]
But it all makes sense now, why James Ray promotes Applied Kinesiology.

You can make a Applied Kinesiology home-test. Get a scale, and put it on a flat table, and zero it. Then push down 2 ways with one arm, once with the back of the hand, then with the palm. With the palm down you can easily press with 2x the force, as the muscles are stronger.
That is the scam of Applied Kinesiology.
The guy pushing your arm down is able to apply more than 2x the force, of you trying to push your arm up. Worse, when you push up in AK, you can't use your body weight, like when you push down, so the guy on top has perhaps 4x the force.
Even worse, if a male like James Ray is pushing down on a females arm, he easily would have much more than 4x the force, especially if done standing.
Some AK is done with the victim on their KNEES while the lazy AK is sitting, that must function as a special bonus for the AK guy, to have the client on her knees.

So Applied Kinesiology (AK) gives James Ray COMPLETE CONTROL of your responses to his questions.

They sell AK as a lie detetector, so James Ray can ask his inner circle female followers any question, then control the answer. Its being used by guys like Ray as another tool, to control what the victim thinks is "true".
Engineering consent, and actually taking control of what the person believes is "true".

Of course, there are many AK people who "believe" in what they are doing, and of course make money doing it. But James Ray is not one of those people, he sees how it works, its a tool of control.

If anyone asks to do AK, just reverse the arm position. Have them try to PUSH UP with the back of their hand, and you PUSH DOWN with your palm, and then you can control the process. Grunt a bit to make it seem you are pushing harder when you are not.
Its another outright scam that gives the person ON TOP total control, and in the hands of someone like James Ray, a powerful tool to take ABSOLUTE CONTROL on a personal level of his inner circle followers sense of what is "true", as they ask deep personal questions to be answered.
That is truly diabolical.
_______________________________________

Quote
Sandman
The opening post in this thread seems to be a testimonial for Desteni, perhaps as an attempt to counter critcisms levelled at that group in previous dicussions on this forum at [forum.culteducation.com]

All of the following words and phrases have been invented or appropriated by Bernard Poolman of Desteni to describe the Desteni 'process':

'common sense', 'support', 'structural resonance alignment', 'points of suppression', 'mind consciousness system', 'assist', 'applying self forgiveness', 'self honesty', 'applying self forgiveness within self honesty', 'principle of equality'.

There are more, but these are the ones used in the post in question.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2010 02:59AM by The Anticult.

Actually, not the same at all and you are just looking for anything to promote your own 'addiction' within pointing out anothers wrong. Enjoy your continued self imposed beliefs.

I do not have all the answers you are seeking, though I am certain of my own experiences within myself. You can't measure actual lived experiences by 'golden rules'. I prove these for myself, by myself, the rest is heresay. Self forgiveness and self honesty works that's what I have lived for myself and have proved for myself. Until you have lived it in fact, you do not know.

Interesting that desteni does not 'screen' every single post before it's posted and threat to edit it, much 'control' here.

Cathykrafft:

Attempting to attack me personally won't change the facts.

What "answers"?

You have offered nothing but your subjective personal experience to support the claims you make about destini.

Licensing, board certification, educational requirements would offer a certain reasonable level of safety regarding participating in a program or class.

Your responses seem to indicate that destini has no such accountability or accreditation, which poses a certain risk to any potential participant.

Accountability provides a certain minimum level of safety.

Frankly, your obsessive focus on your own personal experience comes across much like "cult" members that have posted at this forum. They too typically rely upon their subjective experience and then insist that everyone accept/believe their various claims based upon such purely anecdotal evidence.

If destini makes you feel good fine, but don't expect anyone else to believe in it based upon the very weak evidence you have provided here.

Rick A. Ross
The Cult Education Institute
www.culteducation.com
rickross@culteducation.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2010 03:38AM by rrmoderator.

Hi Rick,
I am not attacking you. There are so many institutions that promise through - Licensing, board certification, educational requirements, etc., to assist and it always is still the 'responsibility' of the 'individual' to 'assist self'. I know plenty that have sought assistance in this manner and still no 'safety' is provided for ones situation in real life and this is proven by the way our world exists. You seem to overlook the importance of 'self honesty' and 'self forgiveness'. These are first and the most important for one to look at within self.

Cathykraft:

Chanting the mantra or slogans ('self honesty' and 'self forgiveness') of your group doesn't really answer much, other than once again follow the pattern of cult members that have posted at this forum, defending one group another.

Licensing, board certification and educational requirements establish meaningful standards, accountability and a level of safety.

According to your posts destini has none of the above and therefore no one that can hold the group accountable to any standards.

Buyer beware, as destini apparently has no 'responsibility' to anyone outside that can oversee its behavior.

There is no chanting a mantra or slogan - Self honesty is looking honestly within oneself and seeing 'patterns' of 'behaviorial 'thinking', and/or 'feelings/emotions/reactions' which lead to the actual actions of self. Like drug addiction, gambling addiction, sex addiction, etc. Self forgiveness is merely forgiving oneself for what we 'accept' and 'allow' as who we are. Who we are has been preprogrammed from birth according to where we live and our circumstances. What happens when one applies 'self forgiveness' effectively is these 'patterns' are released and one begins to experience a silence within that surpasses anything I've ever experienced and with no reoccurring 'patterns'.

I am just sharing my experience and I will never ask anyone to 'believe' me. We should not 'believe' anyone or anything - instead see for ourselves. I don't see a reason for a group to be held accountable to any standard for merely suggesting 'self honesty' and 'self forgiveness', and suggesting people write their experiences within self so it is easier to see yourself. That is the basis for the whole website and to assist people to see that all deserve the dignity of Equality. They suggest an Equal money system for all from 'birth till death', where all may be able to care for themselves practically by way of food to eat, a place to sleep and live. The best I can tell is we are all here on this earth so why not assist each other equally. This is the foundation of desteni. We should trust ourself and treat people as we would in 'fact' treat ourselves. This is not such an easy statement within which to apply oneself and that is evident within our world. What desteni offers is tools and suggestions to assist yourself in living just such a statement. I see no harm in that and I just don't understand what all the fuss is about 'desteni'.

Cathykrafft:

Other than repeating destini doctrine over and over again you did manage to make two telling statements.

"I don't see a reason for a group to be held accountable to any standard..."

Fine.

But for those interested in avoiding potentially unsafe groups standards of accountability is a reason for concern.

It is much safer to participate in a program that does have standards of accountability.

"We should not 'believe' anyone or anything."

Agreed.

The unproven claims of destini should not be believed, as they have no objective evidence to support them.

Thank you for admitting many things on this thread.

Your admissions are helpful for people looking into destini.

Your mindless repetition of destini's slogans and mantras demonstrates what thought reform expert Robert Jay Lifton calls "loaded language."

See [www.culteducation.com]

The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. The most far-reaching and complex of human problems are compressed into brief, highly reductive, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed. These become the start and finish of any ideological analysis. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, for instance, the phrase "bourgeois mentality" is used to encompass and critically dismiss ordinarily troublesome concerns like the quest for individual expression, the exploration of alternative ideas, and the search for perspective and balance in political judgments. And in addition to their function as interpretive shortcuts, these cliches become what Richard Weaver has called "ultimate terms" : either "god terms," representative of ultimate good; or "devil terms," representative of ultimate evil. In [Chinese Communist] thought reform, "progress," "progressive," "liberation," "proletarian standpoints" and "the dialectic of history" fall into the former category; "capitalist," "imperialist," "exploiting classes," and "bourgeois" (mentality, liberalism, morality, superstition, greed) of course fall into the latter. Totalist language then, is repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon, prematurely abstract, highly categorical, relentlessly judging, and to anyone but its most devoted advocate, deadly dull: in Lionel Trilling's phrase, "the language of nonthought."

Thank you for demonstrating the loaded language used within destini.

Actually, no-one needs a group to be honest with or trust themselves or to forgive themselves for any wrongs they feel they may have done. No-one needs to join a group either to help others or treat others as they would treat themselves, or to regard themselves as equal to others or to feel that money should be more equally shared in society. Neither is a group required for anyone to keep a journal about such things.

Desteni uses these fundamental concepts of morality to tap into potential recruits' disillusionment with the world, feelings of alienation and insecurity to create the illusion that joining Desteni and paying out for pseudo-scientific courses in muscle testing that last for years will solve personal problems and injustices in the world.