Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Maple
()
Date: July 06, 2010 12:46AM
Here is another reference I found on a TTN site. This one ties David Holmgren and Permaculture to Steiner's influence.
[www.transitionus.org]
Waldorf’s founder, Rudolf Steiner, experimented with agriculture as well as education. Steiner’s ideas influenced Alan Chadwick, John Jeavons, David Holmgren and the Permaculture movement. In our home garden, I continue the learning process begun in that long ago Waldorf class. Our home garden grows wildly and vibrantly. There are curvilinear paths and hide-and-seek niches. There are flowers at child level, and in those days I grew favorite veggies within easy reach for kids to harvest. Even when they were tiny, my children each had their own “garden” in a large flowerpot.
Now, I like much of Permaculture and their idea of plant guilds and agroforestry. I like it a lot! This seems logical to me, pretty straighforward gardening stuff, though innovative. I've not read Holmgren's work, though it's on my reading list. I did love the Edible Forest Gardening books, however. No hocus pocus that I could see there. It is possible that Anthrop's have tried to make inroads into something good, and Permaculture itself is ok. However, there's the "community" part of permaculture that is normally part of permaculture certification training, to which I cannot speak. I have never attending a certification training, though I know people who have and for many of them this appears to be a huge part of it.
So, the question for me is whether permaculture is a valuable method that Anthrop's have adopted, and intentionally mixed with biodynamics, or whether there is a hidden side to permaculture apart from anthrop. The fact that the TTN claim permaculture as a foundation for their communities is a puzzle to me. Apparently in order to lead TTN trainings, a person has to get their permaculture teacher certification.
It's all somewhat convoluted.
[www.transitionus.org]
Waldorf’s founder, Rudolf Steiner, experimented with agriculture as well as education. Steiner’s ideas influenced Alan Chadwick, John Jeavons, David Holmgren and the Permaculture movement. In our home garden, I continue the learning process begun in that long ago Waldorf class. Our home garden grows wildly and vibrantly. There are curvilinear paths and hide-and-seek niches. There are flowers at child level, and in those days I grew favorite veggies within easy reach for kids to harvest. Even when they were tiny, my children each had their own “garden” in a large flowerpot.
Now, I like much of Permaculture and their idea of plant guilds and agroforestry. I like it a lot! This seems logical to me, pretty straighforward gardening stuff, though innovative. I've not read Holmgren's work, though it's on my reading list. I did love the Edible Forest Gardening books, however. No hocus pocus that I could see there. It is possible that Anthrop's have tried to make inroads into something good, and Permaculture itself is ok. However, there's the "community" part of permaculture that is normally part of permaculture certification training, to which I cannot speak. I have never attending a certification training, though I know people who have and for many of them this appears to be a huge part of it.
So, the question for me is whether permaculture is a valuable method that Anthrop's have adopted, and intentionally mixed with biodynamics, or whether there is a hidden side to permaculture apart from anthrop. The fact that the TTN claim permaculture as a foundation for their communities is a puzzle to me. Apparently in order to lead TTN trainings, a person has to get their permaculture teacher certification.
It's all somewhat convoluted.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
dsm
()
Date: July 06, 2010 07:45AM
I think permaculture itself is a lot wider and more natural than anything to do with Anthroposoohy. Most Permaculture just uses common sense gardening that used to be common in many groups before agriculture became mechanized.
Uhm, I have been looking at Hitlerian national socialism lately in connection with a larger research project and it is very interesting how the worship of the land thing hooks into the Nazi ideology. I was reading a discussion between adherents to this belief system in which they are distinguishing it from Fascism and while they were focussing completely on the economic differences I noticed the echoes of Anthroposophical mysticism right away.
On one level it could give a false image of connection because the two ideologies (steinerism and nazism) appear to be somehow complementary rather than artificially connected, but on another level it shows a scary direction for Transition Town cultural development over time.
Quote
Maple
I did a search for Transition and Steiner and found this comment on a Transition website to be interesting:
We have to re-educate the populous [sic] quickly. They may not all get it, but Rudolf Steiner was no dummy when he put a transition-like curriculum in the Waldorf schools. He saw what was happening in Germany in the 1920's It is here. We need to teach others to farm, cook, raise livestock, card wool, knit, save seeds, etc....
[transitionus.ning.com]
I also found a references to Steiner's books on Transition website booklists posted by members, including the following:
The Cycle of the Year as Breathing Process of the Earth, Rudolph Steiner
[transitioncolorado.ning.com]
Rudolf Steiner- The agriculture Course
[transitioncolorado.ning.com]
This was just a quick search and I found these connections.
Uhm, I have been looking at Hitlerian national socialism lately in connection with a larger research project and it is very interesting how the worship of the land thing hooks into the Nazi ideology. I was reading a discussion between adherents to this belief system in which they are distinguishing it from Fascism and while they were focussing completely on the economic differences I noticed the echoes of Anthroposophical mysticism right away.
On one level it could give a false image of connection because the two ideologies (steinerism and nazism) appear to be somehow complementary rather than artificially connected, but on another level it shows a scary direction for Transition Town cultural development over time.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Mule
()
Date: July 06, 2010 08:26PM
Hi, I'm new to the forum and have been following this thread with great interest.
With reference to the connection of the Steiner Waldorf movement to Nazi ideology I recommend reading historian Peter Staudenmaier:
"Wolfgang Treher makes a compelling case that Steiner’s racial theories, especially the repeated scheme of a small minority evolving further while a large mass declines, bear striking similarities even in detail to Hitler’s own theories. He concludes: “Concentration camps, slave labor and the murder of Jews constitute a praxis whose key is perhaps to be found in the ‘theories’ of Rudolf Steiner.”
Wolfgang Treher, Hitler Steiner Schreber, Emmingden 1966, p. 70.
[www.social-ecology.org]
[www.social-ecology.org]
[www.social-ecology.org]
[www.social-ecology.org]
[egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
With reference to the connection of the Steiner Waldorf movement to Nazi ideology I recommend reading historian Peter Staudenmaier:
"Wolfgang Treher makes a compelling case that Steiner’s racial theories, especially the repeated scheme of a small minority evolving further while a large mass declines, bear striking similarities even in detail to Hitler’s own theories. He concludes: “Concentration camps, slave labor and the murder of Jews constitute a praxis whose key is perhaps to be found in the ‘theories’ of Rudolf Steiner.”
Wolfgang Treher, Hitler Steiner Schreber, Emmingden 1966, p. 70.
[www.social-ecology.org]
[www.social-ecology.org]
[www.social-ecology.org]
[www.social-ecology.org]
[egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
[www.egoisten.de]
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Nick Nakorn
()
Date: July 06, 2010 10:37PM
First of all, many, many thanks to those of you who have commented over on [nicknakorn.wordpress.com], I feel a lot less alone and out on a limb as a result. Thank you all.
Maple,
I entirely agree that Biodynamics is attempting to take over Permaculture by claiming that the two systems are somehow equivalent or, indeed, are attempting to make Permaculture a sub-set of Biodynamics. A similar move has been in operation in the UK as can be seen by the appointment of a Biodynamic farmer as Chief Executive of the Soil Association, the body responsible for authenticating organic produce in the UK and controlling the use of the Organic trademark – in effect taking the Soil Association away from its science base and putting an Anthroposophist at the helm of a £1.84 billions market.
In the early 1980s (I’m away from home at the moment and can’t tell you the exact date without reference to old diaries) I had lunch with Bill Mollison in Bristol (UK) after he had given a lecture on the fundamental principles of Permaculture. In that conversation he was absolutely determined to emphasise that part of his mission was to raise money to conduct evidential science-based models and computer simulations to ascertain which aspects of Permaculture stood up to scientific scrutiny and he was quite happy to throw out those practices that did not. As far as I can tell from talking to other Permaculturalists, since Permaculture One was published many practices have been changed or improved in the light of scientific evidence. I suspect, if the take-over of Permaculture by Biodynamics is a success, that such a trend will be reversed and Permaculture will never properly recover from its association with mysticism.
Dsm,
I agree, it is shocking to read about the extent of the socio-political similarities and
Mule,
A great set of links. I think I’ve read most of them over the past year and urge everyone else to do the same. Peter Staudenmaier’s work is really superb and we should all thank him for his massively important contribution.
By the way, all, some of his findings make very uncomfortable reading so prepare yourself to be sickened by what you read; if you’re a tobacco addict like me, you’ll know what I mean when I say that some of these articles are a whole-pack experience. Shocking yet essential reading.
All, More on Permaculture can be found on loads of sites but the one I’d trust is Graham Strout’s at www.zone5.org and he hosts a fabulous podcast at [skepteco.wordpress.com] too.
It seems to me that one of the great tragedies of this whole sorry mess, in addition to and in consequence of the ghastly rise of fascistic cultures and forms within the Green movement, is that science-minded greens are being left with very little support or opportunities for social engagement and non-white and Jewish greens will never know if they are being treated fairly.
Best wishes all,
Nick
Maple,
I entirely agree that Biodynamics is attempting to take over Permaculture by claiming that the two systems are somehow equivalent or, indeed, are attempting to make Permaculture a sub-set of Biodynamics. A similar move has been in operation in the UK as can be seen by the appointment of a Biodynamic farmer as Chief Executive of the Soil Association, the body responsible for authenticating organic produce in the UK and controlling the use of the Organic trademark – in effect taking the Soil Association away from its science base and putting an Anthroposophist at the helm of a £1.84 billions market.
In the early 1980s (I’m away from home at the moment and can’t tell you the exact date without reference to old diaries) I had lunch with Bill Mollison in Bristol (UK) after he had given a lecture on the fundamental principles of Permaculture. In that conversation he was absolutely determined to emphasise that part of his mission was to raise money to conduct evidential science-based models and computer simulations to ascertain which aspects of Permaculture stood up to scientific scrutiny and he was quite happy to throw out those practices that did not. As far as I can tell from talking to other Permaculturalists, since Permaculture One was published many practices have been changed or improved in the light of scientific evidence. I suspect, if the take-over of Permaculture by Biodynamics is a success, that such a trend will be reversed and Permaculture will never properly recover from its association with mysticism.
Dsm,
I agree, it is shocking to read about the extent of the socio-political similarities and
Mule,
A great set of links. I think I’ve read most of them over the past year and urge everyone else to do the same. Peter Staudenmaier’s work is really superb and we should all thank him for his massively important contribution.
By the way, all, some of his findings make very uncomfortable reading so prepare yourself to be sickened by what you read; if you’re a tobacco addict like me, you’ll know what I mean when I say that some of these articles are a whole-pack experience. Shocking yet essential reading.
All, More on Permaculture can be found on loads of sites but the one I’d trust is Graham Strout’s at www.zone5.org and he hosts a fabulous podcast at [skepteco.wordpress.com] too.
It seems to me that one of the great tragedies of this whole sorry mess, in addition to and in consequence of the ghastly rise of fascistic cultures and forms within the Green movement, is that science-minded greens are being left with very little support or opportunities for social engagement and non-white and Jewish greens will never know if they are being treated fairly.
Best wishes all,
Nick
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 07, 2010 02:34AM
Genuine science is based on use of hypotheses that can be proven false.
Thats what distinguishes permaculture from biodynamic farming which is based on assertions which cannot be proven false.
Pseudoscience is based on assertions that cannot be proven wrong. Thus assertions than cannot be proven wrong, pile up, like dust bunnies in dark corners.
And for maintaining authoritarian and unquestionable power, a system based on assertions that cannot be proven false is the way to go.
Authoritirian persons and sysetms dislike genuine science precisely because science is based on hypotheses that can, at a later time be proven wrong, when enough new information becomes available. The catholic church based its authority on the old earth centered solar system and thus felt threatened when other findings, including Galileo's telecope, demonstrated the existence of heavenly bodies never mentioned in the ancient texts on which the church based its authority.
So one way to dodge it is do as Steiner did--call genuine science 'materialism' and call his own unassailable stance 'Spiritual Science.'
Authoritarian persons and social systems dislike genuine science, because science can utter no absolutes--it can only give answers in terms of likelihoods, probablities, which do not appeal to persons who want black and white, absolute assertions.
Regarding 'curvilinear paths'--Steiner favored curves.
Even the kinds of print face and fonts Steiner preferred were curvilinear.
This even influenced typeface preferences
This preoccuppation with 'living forces'
[www.rsarchive.org]
[www.google.com]
But...folks, one cannot disprove the existence of these 'living forces' meant to be more effectively channeled by curvy type face design, curvilinear architecture.
Finally, here are excerpts from Steiners lectures.
THe stuff here cannot be dis-proved. Steiner called it 'spiritual science' but it isnt
science as mainstream society sees science.
Real science requires use of hypothesis that can be proven wrong.
Stuff like this cannot be proven wrong. It just piles up. No one can budge it.
But one can build a secretive power structure upon it....something not possible with genuine permaculture which should remain grounded in the methods of science. Not Steiners spiritual science, but science, science.
Thats what distinguishes permaculture from biodynamic farming which is based on assertions which cannot be proven false.
Pseudoscience is based on assertions that cannot be proven wrong. Thus assertions than cannot be proven wrong, pile up, like dust bunnies in dark corners.
And for maintaining authoritarian and unquestionable power, a system based on assertions that cannot be proven false is the way to go.
Authoritirian persons and sysetms dislike genuine science precisely because science is based on hypotheses that can, at a later time be proven wrong, when enough new information becomes available. The catholic church based its authority on the old earth centered solar system and thus felt threatened when other findings, including Galileo's telecope, demonstrated the existence of heavenly bodies never mentioned in the ancient texts on which the church based its authority.
So one way to dodge it is do as Steiner did--call genuine science 'materialism' and call his own unassailable stance 'Spiritual Science.'
Authoritarian persons and social systems dislike genuine science, because science can utter no absolutes--it can only give answers in terms of likelihoods, probablities, which do not appeal to persons who want black and white, absolute assertions.
Regarding 'curvilinear paths'--Steiner favored curves.
Even the kinds of print face and fonts Steiner preferred were curvilinear.
This even influenced typeface preferences
Quote
Sagittar Typefaces [www.sagittar.co.uk] [ Edit ] Site Reviews(0)
...The Sagittar and Virgo typefaces, created by Christiana Bryan, can enhance all your presentation material. Their sculptural qualities are an attempt to bring living forces into typeface design....
Added: Dec 31, 2001 Last Update: Dec 31, 2001 Category: Fonts & Typefaces Hits In: 10 Hits Out: 5642
This preoccuppation with 'living forces'
Quote
Kona BD Farm: Biodynamic Spiritual Foundation for the Renewal of ...Biodynamic agriculture is a practical application of this type of inquiry.
Rudolf Steiner's Agriculture lectures lend wisdom and profound insights to the
journey. ... How to introduce living forces into manure or compost piles using
... is a practical application of the spiritual science known as anthroposophy,
...
[www.eartharts.us] - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
[www.rsarchive.org]
[www.google.com]
But...folks, one cannot disprove the existence of these 'living forces' meant to be more effectively channeled by curvy type face design, curvilinear architecture.
Finally, here are excerpts from Steiners lectures.
THe stuff here cannot be dis-proved. Steiner called it 'spiritual science' but it isnt
science as mainstream society sees science.
Real science requires use of hypothesis that can be proven wrong.
Stuff like this cannot be proven wrong. It just piles up. No one can budge it.
But one can build a secretive power structure upon it....something not possible with genuine permaculture which should remain grounded in the methods of science. Not Steiners spiritual science, but science, science.
Quote
Man as Symphony of the Creative World
October 27, 1923
Recapitulation. The butterfly continually gives spiritualized substance to the cosmos during life, not only, like the birds, at death. Butterflies are creatures of light-ether, birds of warmth. How warmed air penetrates bones, etc. of birds. A bird's physical body is merely its “luggage”. How the butterfly takes light-filled air into its body. Both bird and butterfly overcome gravity, while bats are subject to it. They dislike light, and their flight is mechanical. Butterflies see earth as mirror of cosmos, birds see what lives in air, bats begin to perceive things of earth but are full of listening fear. Butterflies are memories, birds are thoughts, bats are dreams. Bats also give off spiritualized substance but impart it to the atmosphere, as a kind of “magma” in the air. People were once taught to defend themselves against this which, when breathed by man, becomes the nutriment of the Dragon. The Michael impulse protects man today.
Lecture VI October 28, 1923
Man has the longest evolution, beginning with the head on Saturn, when butterflies also appeared. Man develops inwardly, the butterfly outwardly. Breast-system appears on Sun with the lion, which added head and limbs later. Digestive system appears on Moon with the cow, which added breast and head. Amphibians and reptiles are purely digestion animals. Fish appear when man develops reproductive organs. Butterflies and birds are a metamorphosed memory, in miniature, of the Beings of the Hierarchies man knew on Saturn and Sun. Hence they are rightly used as pictures of spiritual beings. On descending to a new incarnation man first encounters the butterfly “corona” shot through with rays from birds, i.e. the head nature. Fishes do not feel themselves as water-beings, but as beings enveloping water — as etheric creatures. They are aware of the “breathing” of the earth. The frog is connected with the astral of the earth, and responds to weather conditions. The Cosmos creates frogs, toads, snakes, etc. through same forces as digestion. Relation of toads to large intestine. Study of the mineral kingdom will reveal the future as study of animals has revealed the past. Formation of minerals. The pineal gland.
PART THREE: The Plant World and the Elemental Spirits
Lecture VII November 02, 1923
Mystery of plant life. Gnomes, which work in roots, are sense organs in which perceiving and comprehending are one. They despise human logic. Through the plant they gaze at the forces of the universe while remaining connected with the earth. The earth threatens them with the danger of becoming frogs or toads. Undines or water-spirits work in leaf formation, living in the moist air. They dream the chemistry of plant life. Their fear is to become fish. Sylphs live in warm air, especially in air movement caused by birds, which give them a feeling of ego. They bear cosmic love through the atmosphere, and are light-bearers, weaving archetypal plant forms out of light, which later fall down to the gnomes. Salamanders or fire spirits live in light-warmth which they carry to the blossoms in the pollen, which in turn the stamens carry to the seed-bud. All this is a male process. Fructification takes place in winter when seeds meet the ideal plant forms received by the gnomes. Goethe's instinctive feeling for this. Fire spirits feel their ego in connection with insects which actually live in their aura. Hence comes the power of butterflies to spiritualise matter. Gnomes and undines bear gravity forces of earth upwards to meet light and warmth sent down by sylphs and salamanders. Wonder of nature enhanced by spiritual science.
Lecture VIII November 03, 1923
Ancient powers of spiritual perception have withdrawn. Late evolved creatures, corresponding to head evolution in man, lack a bone system and are spiritually completed by gnomes. Gnomes form their bodies out of gravity. The acuteness of their attention to the world. They are masked behind our dreams. Undines support animals requiring a bony covering. They are hidden behind our dreamless sleep. Sylphs supply the limb-system to birds. They lie behind man's waking dreams. Fire spirits complete butterflies in their bodily nature. The butterfly, with its fire spirit, resembles a winged man. Fire beings stand behind waking consciousness and thoughts. Malicious gnomes and undines produce parasites. Relation of excretion to the brain. Malicious sylphs produce poisons, e.g. bella donna. Fire spirits and poisonous almonds. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva.
Lecture IX November 04, 1923
For the gnomes solid earth is hollow and offers no resistance. They experience the different qualities of its substances. Their relation to the moon, and their different appearance at its phases. Their work in carrying over the hard structure from one manifestation to another. Undines and sylphs find their true life in death. Undines assimilate the colours of phosphorescent water, and offer themselves to the hierarchies. The sylphs carry the astrality of dying birds to the hierarchies. The fire beings do the same with the gleaming of the warmth ether on the butterflies' wings. All four classes of elemental beings are astonished at man's lack of awareness in sleep. They speak to man in admonishment. Their sayings, which form part of the creative Word.
[wn.rsarchive.org]
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Graham S
()
Date: July 07, 2010 05:27AM
"
And for maintaining authoritarian and unquestionable power, a system based on assertions that cannot be proven false is the way to go"
That is a brilliant insight, thanks Corboy. Any ideology that refuses to change with new evidence is inherently oppressive; so many times have I been told, "You cannot say that!" by alternative therapists and the like- it quickly becomes a freedom speech issue.
In a democracy, it our duty to continually speak out against claims which lack evidence, but this right and obligation is continually being eroded.
I should say thought that Permaculture is a set of principles and concepts, more a methodology than a falsifiable hypothesis in itself;
but the point is that for it to have any value at all it has to be based on accepted science; we dont have to reinvent the wheel, or biology, physics and chemistry- nor should we be trying to. Thus "Grow your veggies close to the back door" is not a falsifiable hypothesis, just a design principle. Is it more efficient? In some ways, maybe, in other ways, no.
I always think a key word in permaculture is "appropriate"- what works in one situation may not in another- this is important, because it avoids proscriptive, unproven "beliefs".
Unfortunately Mollison is partly to blame for the pseudoscience now apparent in the PC world- he used his charisma to create an enthusiasm for positive change that didnt always want to be questioned.
I still find this in students today- many are very uncomfortable with the idea that some of these things might not be quite as good as they are made out to be, that we should continually question and check. Many want to be told "this is the easy way out, guaranteed to work, so much better than mainstream approaches". Experimental building has its place- curves can be nice!- but many builders including myself end up reverting to more conventional approaches. There is a reason why they are popular.
I also find that many students these days come to permaculture absolutely expecting nature spirits, dowsing and BD; it is not even possible to have a discussion about these things- as soon as they walk in the door THEY are the experts, they know what permaculture is and isnt, screw the tutor!
Just goes to show how far the oppressive influence of post-modern thought in education has come.
And for maintaining authoritarian and unquestionable power, a system based on assertions that cannot be proven false is the way to go"
That is a brilliant insight, thanks Corboy. Any ideology that refuses to change with new evidence is inherently oppressive; so many times have I been told, "You cannot say that!" by alternative therapists and the like- it quickly becomes a freedom speech issue.
In a democracy, it our duty to continually speak out against claims which lack evidence, but this right and obligation is continually being eroded.
I should say thought that Permaculture is a set of principles and concepts, more a methodology than a falsifiable hypothesis in itself;
but the point is that for it to have any value at all it has to be based on accepted science; we dont have to reinvent the wheel, or biology, physics and chemistry- nor should we be trying to. Thus "Grow your veggies close to the back door" is not a falsifiable hypothesis, just a design principle. Is it more efficient? In some ways, maybe, in other ways, no.
I always think a key word in permaculture is "appropriate"- what works in one situation may not in another- this is important, because it avoids proscriptive, unproven "beliefs".
Unfortunately Mollison is partly to blame for the pseudoscience now apparent in the PC world- he used his charisma to create an enthusiasm for positive change that didnt always want to be questioned.
I still find this in students today- many are very uncomfortable with the idea that some of these things might not be quite as good as they are made out to be, that we should continually question and check. Many want to be told "this is the easy way out, guaranteed to work, so much better than mainstream approaches". Experimental building has its place- curves can be nice!- but many builders including myself end up reverting to more conventional approaches. There is a reason why they are popular.
I also find that many students these days come to permaculture absolutely expecting nature spirits, dowsing and BD; it is not even possible to have a discussion about these things- as soon as they walk in the door THEY are the experts, they know what permaculture is and isnt, screw the tutor!
Just goes to show how far the oppressive influence of post-modern thought in education has come.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: July 07, 2010 07:49AM
'Rudolf Steiner's Agriculture lectures lend wisdom and profound insights to the
journey. ... How to introduce living forces into manure or compost piles using
... is a practical application of the spiritual science known as anthroposophy'
There are already eminently competent living forces at work in manure or compost piles, all the worms, bugs and insects that turn detritus into fertiliser--- without the self-important mystic mumbo jumbo of burying cowhorns by the light of the moon.
I am quite interested to know what these peaceful middle-class transition towners intend to do if profound economic collapse really happens--will they be defending (perhaps with the cowhorns) their biodynamic cabbage patches against the hungry urban hordes who will be roaming the countyside desperate for food?
Do they really think that they can circle the middle-class wagons and have a bucolic back to the land idyll--as if the rest of us dont exist and won't be hungrily eyeing up their cabbage patches, cowhorns and all?
It doesn't strike me as much of a plan at all, they'd be overrun and stripped bare within days.
There is pragmatic reasoning behind the food aid that the west provides to less developed countries and it has little to do with altruism or sentiment at the sight of starving babies and a lot to do with the suppression of the natural and understandable urge of starving people to raid their wealthier neighbours larders.
journey. ... How to introduce living forces into manure or compost piles using
... is a practical application of the spiritual science known as anthroposophy'
There are already eminently competent living forces at work in manure or compost piles, all the worms, bugs and insects that turn detritus into fertiliser--- without the self-important mystic mumbo jumbo of burying cowhorns by the light of the moon.
I am quite interested to know what these peaceful middle-class transition towners intend to do if profound economic collapse really happens--will they be defending (perhaps with the cowhorns) their biodynamic cabbage patches against the hungry urban hordes who will be roaming the countyside desperate for food?
Do they really think that they can circle the middle-class wagons and have a bucolic back to the land idyll--as if the rest of us dont exist and won't be hungrily eyeing up their cabbage patches, cowhorns and all?
It doesn't strike me as much of a plan at all, they'd be overrun and stripped bare within days.
There is pragmatic reasoning behind the food aid that the west provides to less developed countries and it has little to do with altruism or sentiment at the sight of starving babies and a lot to do with the suppression of the natural and understandable urge of starving people to raid their wealthier neighbours larders.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
dsm
()
Date: July 07, 2010 08:15AM
They need to study the fate of Huronia, which was the agricultural Huron tribe's fragile advance into a less hunter-gatherer lifestyle that could not survive the Iroquois culture of waiting for the harvest and storage to be finished before raiding and killing, all along the Great Lakes. The only reason we even know the Huron existed is that this annual dance of seasonal famine was happening just about the time French Jesuit explorers were showing up and recording what they witnessed.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 07, 2010 09:13AM
Quote
I am quite interested to know what these peaceful middle-class transition towners intend to do if profound economic collapse really happens--will they be defending (perhaps with the cowhorns) their biodynamic cabbage patches against the hungry urban hordes who will be roaming the countyside desperate for food?
Do they really think that they can circle the middle-class wagons and have a bucolic back to the land idyll--as if the rest of us dont exist and won't be hungrily eyeing up their cabbage patches, cowhorns and all?
It doesn't strike me as much of a plan at all, they'd be overrun and stripped bare within days.
A long time ago, I saw a cartoon. It depicted a scene of a house at night, surrounded by police cars with peace symbols on the doors.
The cops are out, surrounding the building, in which a notorious criminal has hidden out.
One of the Peace Police is shouting, through a bullhorn,
'Hey Rocky, we know you're in there.
Come out now or....we'll all start....fasting.'
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Graham S
()
Date: July 07, 2010 04:33PM
Stoic:
"Do they really think that they can circle the middle-class wagons and have a bucolic back to the land idyll--as if the rest of us dont exist and won't be hungrily eyeing up their cabbage patches, cowhorns and all? "
Transition Towns are absolutely not, primarily anything to do with back-to-the-land survivalism. Rob is just as scornful as you are of such an approach- "I dont want to live in a cave with tins of baked beans...Either we all make the transition... or none of us do."
The whole debate about whether to head for the hills or engage in community processes, strategic Energy Descent Plans, working with the local community etc, these debates are where TT have emerged from.
Naive? Idealistic? Maybe, but not in a sort or "circle the wagons" way you are suggesting.
Personally I have more a back to the land lifestyle than a Transition Town lifestyle, and I am not naive about the vulnerability that this might entail from criminal elements. However, in my view we are not facing complete collapse and reversion to war-lord-ism in my lifetime, and as economic pressures increase, people are far more likely to want to come and join me and learn the skills I have than they are to raid my cabbage patch.
TT is about creating new policies for towns and cities, starting from the bottom up. Personally I am in accord with these aims; what we are talking about here is the malign influence of cults like anthroposophy and other pseudoscientific influences.
"Do they really think that they can circle the middle-class wagons and have a bucolic back to the land idyll--as if the rest of us dont exist and won't be hungrily eyeing up their cabbage patches, cowhorns and all? "
Transition Towns are absolutely not, primarily anything to do with back-to-the-land survivalism. Rob is just as scornful as you are of such an approach- "I dont want to live in a cave with tins of baked beans...Either we all make the transition... or none of us do."
The whole debate about whether to head for the hills or engage in community processes, strategic Energy Descent Plans, working with the local community etc, these debates are where TT have emerged from.
Naive? Idealistic? Maybe, but not in a sort or "circle the wagons" way you are suggesting.
Personally I have more a back to the land lifestyle than a Transition Town lifestyle, and I am not naive about the vulnerability that this might entail from criminal elements. However, in my view we are not facing complete collapse and reversion to war-lord-ism in my lifetime, and as economic pressures increase, people are far more likely to want to come and join me and learn the skills I have than they are to raid my cabbage patch.
TT is about creating new policies for towns and cities, starting from the bottom up. Personally I am in accord with these aims; what we are talking about here is the malign influence of cults like anthroposophy and other pseudoscientific influences.
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