Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
dsm
()
Date: July 03, 2010 11:25AM
There were other currencies up there in the early 90's, about when I left. I don't think the first one was called Berkshares. You know, there are some heavy hitters int he US financial world with Berkshire County connections. We might be moving off the TT cult topic and into conspiracy-land, though, so this might not be a good tangent.
However, the local currency thing did seem to happen all at once, didn't it? The cult issue would be, how was it controlled? I never participated so I don't know if private businesses ran into any problems, but if they did, such as if they had to kiss-ass to any particular group out of the ordinary small town political stuff, then that would suggest cult control. But you would really have to know people to find out something like that. It would not be out in the open.
However, the local currency thing did seem to happen all at once, didn't it? The cult issue would be, how was it controlled? I never participated so I don't know if private businesses ran into any problems, but if they did, such as if they had to kiss-ass to any particular group out of the ordinary small town political stuff, then that would suggest cult control. But you would really have to know people to find out something like that. It would not be out in the open.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Graham S
()
Date: July 04, 2010 12:14AM
Maple:
"So now my question is what is the connection between permaculture (which I tend to like) and biodynamics (which I tend not to like) if Holmgren (he is one of the two founders of permaculture) has a brother who is associated with the Steiner stuff, etc."
I think you are confusing Holmgren's brothers views on the 9-11 conspiracy, mentioned earlier- which many in the PO movement have toyed with, myself included. I am not aware of any BD link. When I traveled with David Holmgren in Slovenia in 2005 I specifically asked him about Biodynamics; I didnt get the impression he gave it much credibility, suggesting any percieved success was more likely because of greater attention to detail and dedication to the garden work.
The key quote re permaculture and BD is this from Bill Mollison:
“”As I have often been accused of lacking that set of credulity, mystification, modern myth and hogwash that passes today for New Age Spirituality, I cheerfully plead guilty. Unqualified belief, of any breed, dis-empowers any individuals by restricting their information.
Thus, permaculture is not biodynamics, nor does it deal in fairies, devas, elves, after-life, apparitions or phenomena not verifiable by every person from their own experience, or making their own experiments. we permaculture teachers seek to empower any person by practical model-making and applied work, or data based on verifiable investigations. This scepticism of mine extends to religious and political party ideologies”
“Travels in Dreams” (Tagari 1996)
"So now my question is what is the connection between permaculture (which I tend to like) and biodynamics (which I tend not to like) if Holmgren (he is one of the two founders of permaculture) has a brother who is associated with the Steiner stuff, etc."
I think you are confusing Holmgren's brothers views on the 9-11 conspiracy, mentioned earlier- which many in the PO movement have toyed with, myself included. I am not aware of any BD link. When I traveled with David Holmgren in Slovenia in 2005 I specifically asked him about Biodynamics; I didnt get the impression he gave it much credibility, suggesting any percieved success was more likely because of greater attention to detail and dedication to the garden work.
The key quote re permaculture and BD is this from Bill Mollison:
“”As I have often been accused of lacking that set of credulity, mystification, modern myth and hogwash that passes today for New Age Spirituality, I cheerfully plead guilty. Unqualified belief, of any breed, dis-empowers any individuals by restricting their information.
Thus, permaculture is not biodynamics, nor does it deal in fairies, devas, elves, after-life, apparitions or phenomena not verifiable by every person from their own experience, or making their own experiments. we permaculture teachers seek to empower any person by practical model-making and applied work, or data based on verifiable investigations. This scepticism of mine extends to religious and political party ideologies”
“Travels in Dreams” (Tagari 1996)
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
shakti
()
Date: July 04, 2010 02:46AM
Quote
Maple
So now my question is what is the connection between permaculture (which I tend to like) and biodynamics (which I tend not to like) if Holmgren (he is one of the two founders of permaculture) has a brother who is associated with the Steiner stuff, etc.
Just to clarify, I'm not aware of a connection between the late Gerald Holmgren and "Steiner stuff". I just know him as being one of the bigger whackjobs in the "911 Truth" field. Here is a sample of his bizarre ability to spin reality on its head... And "Peak Oil" became "big" on the Internet through its connection to 911 Truthers like Mike Ruppert.
[www.911forum.org.uk]
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Maple
()
Date: July 04, 2010 05:00AM
Thank you for the clarification. Although I expect that cults and cultlike organizations may try to claim good things like permaculture as their own, I really like it and am glad there's no connection. I think I made assumptions from what you posted, but it was clear now that I re-read it.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Nick Nakorn
()
Date: July 04, 2010 06:59AM
Dear all,
I recently noticed a Biodynamic blog run by two young people called Lisa and Juan and was most concerned that their boundless enthusiasm seemed to lack any kind of critical analysis of what they were doing.
Their site is at: [lookingfortherainbow.wordpress.com]
As they did not approve my last post I suspect they might delete the two that I did post on their site so you might not find them when you look. But I happened to have saved the posts and their replies and reproduce them below. What worried me about this exchange, and their e-mail to me at the bottom of this post, is that they display all the signs of having been inculcated into a system of thought in which all ethical decision making has been removed. While one is used to seeing such intransigence in older people who have invested much of their lives in various movements, it is very saddening to see those traits in young people. I’d be most grateful for your views and perhaps you’d like to comment.
I don’t know about you, but I find their e-mail to me extraordinarily sad and worrying. It’s as if they believe that equality will come about through sheer force of their personal will without actually doing anything – even to the extent of not acknowledging the existence of the agencies of which they disapprove. They also seem to be unaware of their own publicity:
Best wishes
Nick
I recently noticed a Biodynamic blog run by two young people called Lisa and Juan and was most concerned that their boundless enthusiasm seemed to lack any kind of critical analysis of what they were doing.
Their site is at: [lookingfortherainbow.wordpress.com]
As they did not approve my last post I suspect they might delete the two that I did post on their site so you might not find them when you look. But I happened to have saved the posts and their replies and reproduce them below. What worried me about this exchange, and their e-mail to me at the bottom of this post, is that they display all the signs of having been inculcated into a system of thought in which all ethical decision making has been removed. While one is used to seeing such intransigence in older people who have invested much of their lives in various movements, it is very saddening to see those traits in young people. I’d be most grateful for your views and perhaps you’d like to comment.
Quote
Dear lisa and juan,
there are many organic methods that care for the soil but Biodynamics is different in that it also supports a profoundly racist and colonialist doctrine. Don’t believe the hype around the Biodynamic ‘scientific’ trials; they have been falsified and exagerated by people who want to believe the mysticism rather than face the science.
Sincerely
Nick Nakorn
Reply
3 07 2010
lookingfortherainbow (14:14:47) :
Thanks for your comment Nick!
More than a doctrine or a hype, our experience with biodynamics is based on what we saw and lived at Gabeno, the farm we stayed at. It involves the people we worked with, the work we did and the results we saw. We are not farmers, nor scientists, and we don’t take a side in the controversy regarding Steiner’s work, so we cannot seriously discuss the scientifical nor mystical facets of biodynamics. What we did was visit a farm in Colombia that follows certain aspects of the biodynamical method and shared our experience with our readers.
Again, thanks for your comment, and please feel free to share any knowledge you have on other organic methods that take care of the soil. We love to share!
juan and lisa
Reply
3 07 2010
nicknakorn (15:06:27) : Your comment is awaiting moderation
Dear Juan and lisa,
Well, I think you should look into the racism and mysticism on humanitarian and political grounds if not on scientific grounds and take a position on these issues. Accepting institutional racism as being either ok or insignificant simply because you enjoyed your experience on a farm is hardly a credible ethical or moral position. The most scholarly work on this issue can be found here:
[www.social-ecology.org]
and there are a bunch of other resources on my blog at:
[nicknakorn.wordpress.com]
please do have a look at these resources as combating racism in the world is a vitally important issue. A wonderful quote from Christopher Hitchens:
“Since we left Africa, we have diverged as a species hardly at all. If we were dogs, we would all be the same breed. We do not suffer from the enormous differences that separate other primates, let alone other mammals. As if to spite this huge natural gift, and to disfigure what could be our overwhelming solidarity, we manage to find excuses for chauvinism and racism on the most minor of occasions and then to make the most of them. This is why condemnation of bigotry and superstition is not just a moral question but a matter of survival.”
full text at: [www.slate.com]
Please do follow these up as I hate to see young enthusiastic people like yourselves sucked into situations that might be hard to leave.
best wishes
Nick
Reply
Hi Nick,
Thank you for your comment!
We understand and share your concerns regarding equality and respect amongst the many peoples that live on Earth. Moreover, we believe we are all one organism. So please rest assured that whenever we have the chance we proactively promote these values.
Regarding Steiner and Anthroposophy, thank you for sharing the links. Even though the information is interesting on an intellectual level we do not feel concerned with anthroposophy or any of its doctrines. As mentioned previously, we do not read about anthroposophy, we do not follow any type of anthroposophical teachings and we certainly do not take sides on the polemics regarding any of this. Yes, we visited a farm that follows some of the biodynamical practices (preparations and some experiments with the calendar). But that is as far as our involvement goes.
As for the racism and colonialistic behavior that is so present amongst development agencies and policies, we do acknowledge their existence and work actively to find alternatives. For now, we support local initiatives rather than worldwide policies and top-down approaches.
Finally, we would like to stress the point that we are all one big community, one big family, sharing a wonderful planet. And that by realizing this unity and focusing on it, we humans have the ability to overcome racism or any type of discrimination.
Cheers,
juan and lisa :)
I don’t know about you, but I find their e-mail to me extraordinarily sad and worrying. It’s as if they believe that equality will come about through sheer force of their personal will without actually doing anything – even to the extent of not acknowledging the existence of the agencies of which they disapprove. They also seem to be unaware of their own publicity:
If you look at their blog it is almost entirely a homage to Steiner and Biodynamics yet they claim not to be very much involved. I was going to make this into an article on my blog but, as they are so young, I’m a bit concerned about seeming too harsh in a public arena – perhaps I was too harsh in my 2nd message to them anyway? Advice needed from some cult experts. Should I publish this on my blog and provide a critique?Quote
“Yes, we visited a farm that follows some of the biodynamical practices (preparations and some experiments with the calendar). But that is as far as our involvement goes.”
Best wishes
Nick
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Nick Nakorn
()
Date: July 04, 2010 07:22AM
Correction: I've just noticed Lisa and Juan they say they DO acknowledge the existence of agencies of which they disapprove - other than that, I think my concerns are still valid as they seem not to have the same discernment concerning anthroposophy.
Nick
Nick
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
dsm
()
Date: July 04, 2010 07:25AM
I just read that whole article that you linked. He repeats himself a lot and refers to "official records" without showing them or how these records differ, except for the obvious fact that media references are all second-hand and airline data can be confusing. He asks questions about the existence of the passengers who are assumed to have been killed on 9/11, but of course, where can anyone go to get answers? It is very easy to impress people with stuff like that.
What is interesting about the "truther" stuff is that most of it seems very logical within its own system. I also find it very interesting that one of the major "truther" activists, Alex Jones, has received a lot of very significant funding from the Unitarian Church. They funded his Prison Planet film. He thanked them at a comedy club appearance in 'Austin a couple years ago.
The effect of Alex Jones' "truther" activity is interesting. It is mind-numbing in its ability to inspire helplessness. "We're all going to DIE!!!!" seems to be the only message. The Unitarians could fund anyone to promote skepticism about the government and promote self-reliant resistance, but they choose Chicken Little and the Falling Sky.
Cults that are geared to control of others tend to instill helplessness in those others as much as they can. Definitely, there are questions about 9/11 and the gov't's handling of it, as there would be about anything and the gov't's handling of anything, at anytime, anywhere. Such is the nature of corrupt and incompetent humanity today.
Is the Steiner Anthroposopy group an organized cult that actually seeks social power or control over others including those who do not choose to join it, as opposed to simply a cult of inwardly-directed believers in a weird philosophy? That seems to be the question along with the question of how far it is entangledwith Transition Towns. (Being a controlling element or being that some Steiner buffs have opportunistically seized upon Transition Towns as a convenient vehicle for their beliefs?.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2010 07:29AM by dsm.
What is interesting about the "truther" stuff is that most of it seems very logical within its own system. I also find it very interesting that one of the major "truther" activists, Alex Jones, has received a lot of very significant funding from the Unitarian Church. They funded his Prison Planet film. He thanked them at a comedy club appearance in 'Austin a couple years ago.
The effect of Alex Jones' "truther" activity is interesting. It is mind-numbing in its ability to inspire helplessness. "We're all going to DIE!!!!" seems to be the only message. The Unitarians could fund anyone to promote skepticism about the government and promote self-reliant resistance, but they choose Chicken Little and the Falling Sky.
Cults that are geared to control of others tend to instill helplessness in those others as much as they can. Definitely, there are questions about 9/11 and the gov't's handling of it, as there would be about anything and the gov't's handling of anything, at anytime, anywhere. Such is the nature of corrupt and incompetent humanity today.
Is the Steiner Anthroposopy group an organized cult that actually seeks social power or control over others including those who do not choose to join it, as opposed to simply a cult of inwardly-directed believers in a weird philosophy? That seems to be the question along with the question of how far it is entangledwith Transition Towns. (Being a controlling element or being that some Steiner buffs have opportunistically seized upon Transition Towns as a convenient vehicle for their beliefs?.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2010 07:29AM by dsm.
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Nick Nakorn
()
Date: July 04, 2010 08:32AM
Dear dsm
In my view Anthroposophy is an organised cult and it utilises it's senior executives to inflitrate other organisations to enable the influence of the cult to permeate more widely. I don't wish to repeat here all that I have said on my blog (it would take too long!) but if you take a look at my polemical essay and have a look at the links I provide it's all pretty much laid out as an introduction to the subject. I also outline, at some length, my philosophical and political views concerning how such organisations attempt to overturn rational argument by rubbishing science and rationality as a valid position. Remember that my experience is just one of thousands world-wide. Most perhaps have not had the time to write about it. If it's happening in England it's probably happening elsewhere as the blogger Zooey and others will attest.
Anthroposophy also has a very strong history of actual coercion, particularly in Italy during the Fascist period in which senior Anthroposophists were put in charge of depatments concerned with promoting anti-semitism and all that went with it.
This brilliant research by Peter Staudenmaier chills ones to the bone:
[www.waldorfcritics.org]
It would not be so bad if the leaders of the current movement, such as those at the helm of the Triodos Bank and the Steiner Waldorf Schools, acknowledged their past and made strong public statements to distance themselves from those aspects of their ideologies. But as racism and mysticism are inherent in their vile philosophy they are not prepared to do so and are forever skirting around the subject.
Best wishes
Nick
By the way, everyone, thanks so much for the kind things you've said about my blog; I feel it's worthwhile continuing with it as a result. But I've had so few comments on it I almost think its a waste of time - if you feel like saying hi, drop by and it won't feel like such a lonely experience! [nicknakorn.wordpress.com]
Quote
dsm
Is the Steiner Anthroposopy group an organized cult that actually seeks social power or control over others including those who do not choose to join it, as opposed to simply a cult of inwardly-directed believers in a weird philosophy? That seems to be the question along with the question of how far it is entangledwith Transition Towns. (Being a controlling element or being that some Steiner buffs have opportunistically seized upon Transition Towns as a convenient vehicle for their beliefs?.
In my view Anthroposophy is an organised cult and it utilises it's senior executives to inflitrate other organisations to enable the influence of the cult to permeate more widely. I don't wish to repeat here all that I have said on my blog (it would take too long!) but if you take a look at my polemical essay and have a look at the links I provide it's all pretty much laid out as an introduction to the subject. I also outline, at some length, my philosophical and political views concerning how such organisations attempt to overturn rational argument by rubbishing science and rationality as a valid position. Remember that my experience is just one of thousands world-wide. Most perhaps have not had the time to write about it. If it's happening in England it's probably happening elsewhere as the blogger Zooey and others will attest.
Anthroposophy also has a very strong history of actual coercion, particularly in Italy during the Fascist period in which senior Anthroposophists were put in charge of depatments concerned with promoting anti-semitism and all that went with it.
This brilliant research by Peter Staudenmaier chills ones to the bone:
[www.waldorfcritics.org]
It would not be so bad if the leaders of the current movement, such as those at the helm of the Triodos Bank and the Steiner Waldorf Schools, acknowledged their past and made strong public statements to distance themselves from those aspects of their ideologies. But as racism and mysticism are inherent in their vile philosophy they are not prepared to do so and are forever skirting around the subject.
Best wishes
Nick
By the way, everyone, thanks so much for the kind things you've said about my blog; I feel it's worthwhile continuing with it as a result. But I've had so few comments on it I almost think its a waste of time - if you feel like saying hi, drop by and it won't feel like such a lonely experience! [nicknakorn.wordpress.com]
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
dsm
()
Date: July 04, 2010 02:02PM
Here is a quote from a UK discussion of Waldorf/Steiner that mentions a Transition Town there, "Totnes":
[counterknowledge.com]
@ Mrs Dawkins
Yes, I live in Totnes. I used to think the hippies were just harmless goofs but I’m finding their anti-rationalism and smiling selfishness increasingly hard to tolerate. Though I have not seen any statistics about the incidence of mental health problems, someone once described the place to me as being like a mental hospital with a high street. I thought that was a pretty good analogy. Yes, Totnes was the UK’s first Transition Town, and you’re right about the ‘head, heart and hands’ reference. Rather like Waldorf schools, they seem to be good at self-promotion and grant-grubbing but not much else. I have no ‘cosmic’ neighbours, friends, relatives or colleagues, so Transition initiatives are never mentioned to me by people I know. That’s a measure of the essential irrelevance of the Transition movement. It does give rise to amusing ironies, mind. Take the Totnes Pound: one of the most enthusiastic adopters of this ‘local currency’ runs a shop brimming with plastic kitsch made in China. If the powerdowners are right, then they are rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic if the best they can manage is asking people to walk, not drive, to the plastic tat shop and spend glorified book tokens there rather than Sterling.
It’s true that I often feel it necessary to keep my gob shut about a lot of this stuff here. Before I learned discretion, I found that many ‘alternative’ people are some of the most insecure, hypersensitive individuals you can meet. Who needs a rational argument when you can shout?
[counterknowledge.com]
@ Mrs Dawkins
Yes, I live in Totnes. I used to think the hippies were just harmless goofs but I’m finding their anti-rationalism and smiling selfishness increasingly hard to tolerate. Though I have not seen any statistics about the incidence of mental health problems, someone once described the place to me as being like a mental hospital with a high street. I thought that was a pretty good analogy. Yes, Totnes was the UK’s first Transition Town, and you’re right about the ‘head, heart and hands’ reference. Rather like Waldorf schools, they seem to be good at self-promotion and grant-grubbing but not much else. I have no ‘cosmic’ neighbours, friends, relatives or colleagues, so Transition initiatives are never mentioned to me by people I know. That’s a measure of the essential irrelevance of the Transition movement. It does give rise to amusing ironies, mind. Take the Totnes Pound: one of the most enthusiastic adopters of this ‘local currency’ runs a shop brimming with plastic kitsch made in China. If the powerdowners are right, then they are rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic if the best they can manage is asking people to walk, not drive, to the plastic tat shop and spend glorified book tokens there rather than Sterling.
It’s true that I often feel it necessary to keep my gob shut about a lot of this stuff here. Before I learned discretion, I found that many ‘alternative’ people are some of the most insecure, hypersensitive individuals you can meet. Who needs a rational argument when you can shout?
Re: Transition Town Movement
Posted by:
Maple
()
Date: July 06, 2010 12:13AM
I did a search for Transition and Steiner and found this comment on a Transition website to be interesting:
We have to re-educate the populous [sic] quickly. They may not all get it, but Rudolf Steiner was no dummy when he put a transition-like curriculum in the Waldorf schools. He saw what was happening in Germany in the 1920's It is here. We need to teach others to farm, cook, raise livestock, card wool, knit, save seeds, etc....
[transitionus.ning.com]
I also found a references to Steiner's books on Transition website booklists posted by members, including the following:
The Cycle of the Year as Breathing Process of the Earth, Rudolph Steiner
[transitioncolorado.ning.com]
Rudolf Steiner- The agriculture Course
[transitioncolorado.ning.com]
This was just a quick search and I found these connections.
We have to re-educate the populous [sic] quickly. They may not all get it, but Rudolf Steiner was no dummy when he put a transition-like curriculum in the Waldorf schools. He saw what was happening in Germany in the 1920's It is here. We need to teach others to farm, cook, raise livestock, card wool, knit, save seeds, etc....
[transitionus.ning.com]
I also found a references to Steiner's books on Transition website booklists posted by members, including the following:
The Cycle of the Year as Breathing Process of the Earth, Rudolph Steiner
[transitioncolorado.ning.com]
Rudolf Steiner- The agriculture Course
[transitioncolorado.ning.com]
This was just a quick search and I found these connections.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.