I'd also like to say.... no one in this forum is under any obligation to dialogue with anyone else who comes to post. Involvement here is voluntary.

I really don't see how it's productive to start a thread on this message board just to discuss a specific member. I would think the poster who started this chose the wrong place to try and discredit an ex-cult member. Not that AntiCult and rrmoderator didn't do a great job responding, but Dr. Logic just made themselves look completely irrational, and with an obvious agenda. That analogy was ridiculous, not applicable, and a classic example of the dangerous kind of "positive thinking" that is instilled by many of the con-artists discussed on this forum.

Dr. Logic is just another troll attempting to put doubt in readers minds that happen to come across this board. Doubt of what I don't really know exactly. I think the fact that this forum exists (thanks to Rick Ross) the sheer volume of posts and views from people all over the world sharing their very real experiences, trying to make sense of it all, and exposing hidden information is enough to let readers make their own informed decisions.

Ironically, it was kind of a good thing Dr. Logic attempted to share his 'pearl of wisdom here', just another confirmation that there are people out there worried about what the RR message board is exposing.

I'm sure this thread will make it to the bottom of the pile soon. That's all I have to say here about that!

This shows he actually hasn't read much of the content in the threads. There is obviously not one word of a religious agenda in any way. In fact, any type of preaching is against the rules of this forum.

Again, its a total straw-man, to try and talk about competing ideologies. The ideology is actually not the problem in any way.
Its the deception that is used to lure people in, the bait & switch.
The New Age Guru says they are about Enlightenment, but that is merely to distract people from the deep covert persuasion going on.
In fact the "content" is merely used to distract the subject and occupy their conscious mind.
The "content" can be Nondual, 4 Questions, Influence, channeling, Zen, Buddhism, Christian, UFO's, orgasms, Quantum Physics, Kundalini, or anything else.

So why waste peoples time?
Name a specific New Wage Guru that has been criticized, that should be listed as legit.
Which one specifically?

What Dr. Logic is doing is actually very much like these various new wagey culty groups, in that they try to talk in circles to try and play mind games. The tone reminds one of the Guy Finley material, all vague and pointless, meant to confuse people and then lure them to the ranch.

The blunt, harsh language is deliberate to cut through the bullshit.
Name specific new wage Gurus and their systems, to be factually and technically analyzed, that is how it works.


Or instead start talking about the nature of language, and how words are like seagulls...and the seagulls all fly in a circle...and your eyes get tired watching them fly in circles...and you yaaawwwnnn....as your purse is opens up and your credit card floats toward the seminar sign-up booth...don't be afraid...trust the universe and sign this blank form...let the new wage Guru saleswoman fill in the amount later...don't let your mind react in fear...trust the saleswoman, she cares about you...sign right here...now back to the nature of language....

Guy Finley LIFE OF LEARNING FOUNDATION INC, financial disclosure [forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
Dr. Logic
If one of the Internet's most vocal anticult experts is on a religious crusade against competing ideologies, then that's a relevant detail, don't you think? I've seen members of this forum get upset over much, much smaller issues of transparency (e.g. when a website doesn't explicitly state its Amazon affiliation).

I don't think it's "lame" or "stupid" to ask members of this forum to hold themselves to the same stringent standards they demand from the rest of the world.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2010 06:20AM by The Anticult.

Another little tactic that can been seen at play here, when someone is trying to play a little mind-game, instead of getting defensive, they will try the tactic of shaming a critic, by trying to make them feel guilty for cussing them out.
Many of the New Wage and Nondual Gurus and their salespeople do that.

They target an audience of people who are "too nice", and the Guru salesmen put on a fake "nice act", all the while running indirect manipulation patterns.
If a person calls them out on their bullshit, they will raise their hands in false holy indignation and say...Oh my goodness...I am here in pure heart trying to save the world and you use some harsh language to my virgin ears...
The tactic is to try and prey on the "too nice" instincts of the target audience, to deflect criticism, and it works.
In fact, a customer getting angry and telling them off, and walking out of the seminar could save that customer many years of grief, it could save their life.
That is why they try to SHAME righteous assertiveness, and part of assertiveness is telling indirect sleazy salespeople to fuck off to their face when they are being manipulative and pushy. Those LGAT salespeople will simply walk away from people who are assertive, and target more vulnerable people.


For example, if Dr. Logic were a salesman promoting a Guru, by this time in real life he would be hearing...HOW MUCH? WHAT IS THE EXACT PRICE? Cut the BS, cut the stories, lets see the price and the contract. If he came out with one more random story, he gets thrown out of your office.

Dr. Logic deserves to get cussed out for trying to play an indirect mind game.
To overcome complex cultic techniques can take direct and harsh honest language, one can't beat around the bush.

The bottom line is this.
Names SPECIFIC Gurus and their systems.

And its such a load of bullshit about the disclosure, the people who are being DEMANDED to release disclosure are those who advertise and make claims in their advertising to earn their living.
Their lies in their advertising, many of which have been proven in these threads, could have the FTC come down on them. Some of their claims are not only immoral and unethical, they are ILLEGAL.
Byron Katie Int changed some of their website claims after they were exposed in these threads.

And hidden Amazon links are relevant, [forum.culteducation.com] as the person who was trying to dupe people with hidden amazon links was promoting himself as being Mr Ethical, which he is NOT. Its a sham. They try to say they are ethical as a sales tactic to gain rapport. Its a scam.

So those who are SELLING this crap for MILLIONS and advertising outrageous claims to make money, must disclose the information. Those who are lying in their advertising could get themselves in trouble, from something called the FTC and misleading advertising.
When you advertise and you lie and make false claims, then they are asking for trouble.

So Mr Logic, cut the BS, cut the circular illogic, cut the lame attempts at indirect mind-games, and name specific Gurus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2010 08:21AM by The Anticult.

I think that Dr. Logic is exercising excellent sales techniques.

He/she will NOT come out and say, as you wish, The Anticult, whom he/she is protecting/defending/in employ of. To do so removes one of his/her sales leverage points: keep the "Mark" off-balance and close/obsfucate the point so "Dr. Logic Wins".

I am hoping this thread dies a very fast death as it is not worthy of the heading of "Re: Questions for The Anticult" (no offense, The Anticult, but you are not a "Cult, Sect, or New Religious Movement" and something like this should have been done through the private messaging system.)

Dr. Logic, please tell us YOUR religious leanings, professional or recreational training and the LGATs and "cults" that you participated in or work for. This will make your future posts more enlightening and let us on this forum know where you are coming from with your critiques of posters here.

Thank you in advance to your honest reply.

Please consider one thing, many Christians here will gladly and openly describe to you their beliefs since to "Witness" is one of their tenants. Jews will gladly offer their background as do Muslims. Others here are nursing wounds from spiritual abuse and their silence should be respected.

The Anticult:

Your comment that I "deserve to get cussed out" is a bit over the top, don't you think?

I'll share a little secret with you. Hostility doesn't convey strength. It conveys fear. When you say that type of thing, you might as well get a bullhorn and announce to the world that you're a terrified human being.

Mike Tyson taught me that. No joke.

Anyway, you've given me a lot to respond to, and I'm a bit pressed for time today, but I'll see what I can do when I have a free moment.

Dr. Logic:

If you continue attempts to personally attack members of this board, which is against the rules, you will be banned from this message board.

Please don't post personal insults.

BTW--No one cares what "Mike Tyson" supposedly taught you.

This is becoming rather comical, although I don't get the feeling that "Dr. Logic" means for it to be.

The Mike Tyson reference is very funny! Here's why....

Wait, let me have Kevin Hogan explain it....

When people's vocal aspects do not seem to match with their physical characteristics, it creates a conflict that may confuse or surprise others. A well-known example is Mike Tyson, a former professional boxer. At the height of his career he was the most dominant force in the sport of boxing, beating opponents with a ferocity and intensity that seemed almost unreal. His voice, however, was quite high-pitched and sounded very feminine. His imposing, masculine body coupled with his small, feminine voice create a very conflicting impression of him indeed.

(Excerpt from "The Secret Language of Business")

Yes, the reference to Mike Tyson is funny because of his funny-sounding speaking voice. Perhaps for other reasons as well.

For those who haven't heard Mike Tyson speak, here is a sampling:

[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_trSpg99yc]www.youtube.com[/url]]

Interestingly, Mike Tyson in that video is demonstrating quite a bit of hostility. He doesn't seem at all afraid to me.

Yet.... Dr. Logic would have us believe that hostility merely conveys fear.

"I'll share a little secret with you. Hostility doesn't convey strength. It conveys fear."

Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary defines "hostility" as:
1 a : deep-seated usually mutual ill will; b (1) : hostile action (2) plural : overt acts of warfare : war
2 : conflict, opposition, or resistance in thought or principle.

Does Dr. Logic reside in some alternate reality where hostility means something very different than on planet earth? Is Dr. Logic delusional?

People with delusions DO tend to think they possess "a little secret" or two or ten.

Should we schedule a press conference to inform the peoples of the earth that "hostility" no longer means what it used to?

Here is just a little more from Mike Tyson. Does he seem at all afraid in this clip yet again exhibiting his well-known hostility? (warning: contains very strong language)

[[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_MABvb64vs]www.youtube.com[/url]]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2010 11:57PM by helpme2times.

[ this might just be another belated reincarnation Part 19 of the mega internet troll sock-puppetry with all those ID's...Kassy/Anatta/skepticalrepublican ]
[forum.culteducation.com]
[forum.culteducation.com]



Actually these LGAT salesmen are TERRIFIED of people who are assertive.
When they are pestering you, and manipulating you, and deceiving you to buy their crap, and you look them in they eye and tell them to GET LOST, and mean it, that scares them.
If its a big sale, they will keep at it, to try and close the deal.
Sometimes you have to tell them to FUCK OFF directly to their face, and even tell them you are going to call 911 if they are blocking your exit, or touching you physically.
That is reality.

Its very likely that KEVIN HOGAN at his seminars also tries the same crooked sales technique as the recently charged with manslaughter James Arthur Ray, where they try to get you to put your credit card number onto a blank order form.
[forum.culteducation.com]
That is a very popular and crooked technique these mega-salespeople scammers use in LGAT seminars. Its called the YES SET. They get a small yes, and build from there.
Once they have your credit card number, they are half-way there, the people have written their number on the company order form, and then the company will keep that.
It goes into their database.
That is all they care about, getting your money.
As shown in other seminars, they will literally push people on their breaks to call their credit card companies to raise their credit limits to 100K, and then charge tens of thousands over the seminar, using high pressure tactics.
Just getting the credit card number is the first step, of many.
When some seminar Guru asks you to put your credit card number on a blank order form, that is like someone asking you to SIGN a blank invoice, or blank check, or sign a blank piece of paper, as some cults do. That is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

That is when to tell them to GET LOST, and to directly leave the room. If they try to stop the person from leaving, tell them if they do not get out of the way in 3 seconds, 911 will be called, and grab the phone.
If they charge something without approval, get a chargeback immediately from the credit card company.
These LGAT seminars do this all the time, everyday.

They all flip the onus back onto anyone questioning them by asking what they are so afraid of, or who harmed you so badly in the past that you are reacting in fear or hate, etc. It takes the focus off of them, and they can then avoid answering questions.